PALADIN: Two-handed Fighting vs. Sword & Shield — Pros & Cons.

[Erokir]

What's your favorite paladin build?

I've always gone two-handed fighting, but I'm considering a bastard sword and shield build. Bastard sword so that I'll still get glancing blows on multiple mobs at a time and a shield so that I can be a hardy tank.

But, something about a shield build has always made me reluctant. I imagine having to spend that much more time hacking away at mobs before they die, and it doesn't seem as fun as using a great sword.

I'd like to be sold on a shield build. Also, which size shield do you prefer—large or tower?

[Seph1roth5]

Uhhh one's a lot more dps, one's a lot more def lol that's pretty much the gist of it. I enjoy both.

When I've done a paly tank my damage has been pretty ****, but intimidate takes care of most enemies. You can finagle it to be a bit higher damage and MAYBE have enough hate to keep aggro, but my tank wasn't for endgame raids or anything, just for my static group.

2hf paly is a powerhouse, you can still wade in and intimidate everything (especially now with cha to hit/dam!) but you won't be able to tank as easily as a tower shield-wielding tank that can sit and block and maybe need to heal once.

I'd say try both, they're both pretty enjoyable, though I guess low damage tank is better with groups.

[Tilomere]

But, something about a shield build has always made me reluctant. I imagine having to spend that much more time hacking away at mobs before they die, and it doesn't seem as fun as using a great sword.


You could always use a thrower, which means you get basically a full damage build with a shield. Maybe this (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/522880-Trying-to-build-a-self-sufficient-mid-reaper-Paladin?p=6415802&viewfull=1#post6415802) helps?

[Memnir]

I tend to have more fun going foe-mowing on a THF Paladin.

...never tried a thrower, however. hmmmmmm

[BDog77]

I kind of do a hybrid build (not nearly as powerful as going one way or the other so YMMV). I have a dwarf pure Pally with all THF feats, and the first 2 shield feats, tier five Sacred Defender all cores except capstone, KOTC all cores plus capstone (obv no tier 5s) Daxe/shield build. He has enough survivability solo to feel almost invincible, and enough DPS that I am not incredibly bored even in some of the high HP boss fights.

I find him pretty fun to play, although I don't often run solo reaper with him as elite seems challenging enough. He can solo Legendary Normal Tempest Spine though, which I find to be a blast!

However, my main is a traditional THF pure Pally, so I like both styles, they are just different.

EDIT: Sorry, missed the type of shield question. Right now he uses the tower shield (from Gianthold, iirc?) that gives the feat (level 25ish, maybe), but I am looking for a better option and will probably settle on large shield eventually. I believe some of the newer large shields are quite good, however I don't really worry about shield bashing per se.

[slarden]

If you take the the THF and shield line you can swap between great sword and bastard sword + shield depending on the situation.

I would go tier 5 in Knights of the Chalice + 31 pts in sacred defender + 7 in feydark illusionist for char to hit and damage. If you decide you want to mainly just use one style you can etr and respec easy enough.

As long as you put some points in UMD you can use master's touch scrolls for proficiency in tower shields if you don't have it some other way. Tower shield will always give you better #s - you can use a large shield if the stats on it work out better. You want to go either large or tower shield though for the 50% magic damage reduction.


I kind of do a hybrid build (not nearly as powerful as going one way or the other so YMMV). I have a dwarf pure Pally with all THF feats, and the first 2 shield feats, tier five Sacred Defender all cores except capstone, KOTC all cores plus capstone (obv no tier 5s) Daxe/shield build. He has enough survivability solo to feel almost invincible, and enough DPS that I am not incredibly bored even in some of the high HP boss fights.
. I am doing something similar - but I am dwarf 18 paladin, 1 wiz, 1 fighter tier 5 kotc, 31 points in sacred defender, 4 pts in ek for the 10% exc AC boost I lose from not going tier 5 in sacred defender and fighter gives me tower shield proficiency plus a feat slot for a shield feat.

I can swap between great axe and dwaven war axe + tower shield but almost always go tanky.

[Azriel_Angelus]

If you take the the THF and shield line you can swap between great sword and bastard sword + shield depending on the situation.

I would go tier 5 in Knights of the Chalice + 31 pts in sacred defender + 7 in feydark illusionist for char to hit and damage. If you decide you want to mainly just use one style you can etr and respec easy enough.

As long as you put some points in UMD you can use master's touch scrolls for proficiency in tower shields if you don't have it some other way. Tower shield will always give you better #s - you can use a large shield if the stats on it work out better. You want to go either large or tower shield though for the 50% magic damage reduction.

I am doing something similar - but I am dwarf 18 paladin, 1 wiz, 1 fighter tier 5 kotc, 31 points in sacred defender, 4 pts in ek for the 10% exc AC boost I lose from not going tier 5 in sacred defender and fighter gives me tower shield proficiency plus a feat slot for a shield feat.

I can swap between great axe and dwaven war axe + tower shield but almost always go tanky.

Probably shouldn't swap to G-Axe a lot of pally strength comes from favored weps, and sadly G-Axe cannot be a favored weapon, that being said Great Swords kinda suck at cap comparatively, and you are stuck using them as your only two handed favored wep, unless you are Silvanus you can use mauls, but since its a dwarf thats kind out of the question

[FuzzyDuck81]

I generally prefer 2hf, in large part because that way there's only 2 enhancement trees to worry about & it makes AP alocation a lot less hassle.

[slarden]

Probably shouldn't swap to G-Axe a lot of pally strength comes from favored weps, and sadly G-Axe cannot be a favored weapon, that being said Great Swords kinda suck at cap comparatively, and you are stuck using them as your only two handed favored wep, unless you are Silvanus you can use mauls, but since its a dwarf thats kind out of the question I don't really swap much as I play the role of tank in my group - currently at level 24. At 30 I likely won't swap as I built this character specifically to be a tank so my guildly doesn't always have to tank for us.

There are some good leveling great axes that make up for the loss of favored weapon status so it's not a dps loss.

In his case bastard sword is only a favored weapon if he trs to pdk with diety helm so that might be an issue, but since he already has a fighter splash it might not be a bad option as pdk also has charisma to hit and damage with bastard swords and great swords without splashing in the feydark tree. Great sword is always a favored weapon through the KOTC tree.

My original build was going to be pdk 18/1 fighter/1 wizard with charisma to hit and damage, but my guildy suggested since I was building this on a character with 96ap I might as well go dwarf and take con to damage and cha to hit since I could squeeze in the AP to do it along with the other things I wanted to do. PDK has the better dire charge and holy retribution DC + works with 80 AP, but dwarf benefits from con bonuses from level ups, winter set + sacred defender to increase damage.

PDK does have better flexibility to swap between bastard sword and great sword as favored weapons at 30 depending on the need.

[droid327]

one's a lot more def lol that's pretty much the gist of it.

I think this is the basic problem with S&B and the reason why the great majority of Paladins go THF...

Its not that much more defense. You get double MRR against Reflex spells...that's pretty much it. Some AC, but unless you're specifically an all-in AC tank, its not going to move the needle. And you get the extra slot for stats, but its not like there are any shields that are so ZOMG that you want to build around them.

In fact most of the benefits of shields are offensive. Things like Shield Mastery that offer bonus doublestrike and attack speed. But that's all just trying to make up the difference between S&B and THF. So you're trading away a lot of offense and opportunity cost, for a small situational benefit to defense. And its never going to be as good offensively as THF, because there's always the sense that it should "give up" some offense in lieu of the defense its supposed to have, but doesnt atcually.

Shields really need an overhaul pass themselves - not shield feats or shield-combat trees, but what shields actually do themselves when you wear one. If shields were more worthwhile on their own as a defensive choice, instead of just being used to "unlock" feats and enhancements, then they could build S&B combat on top of that and have it be an actual comparable option to THF. I suspect they're worried that shields might be used to cheese things on non-shield builds if they were too defensively powerful on their own, things like trivializing traps or certain raid mechanics...but as it stands right now there's very little incentive to use them compared to your other options.

What I might suggest, e.g.: Double MRR cap while wearing any shield (good for Swash, potentially light armor Vanguards, non-EK casters). MRR based on BaB, like Armor gives PRR (1.0/1.5/2.0/3.0x, dep on shield size). % bonus Elemental Resists (1.5/2.0/2.5/3.0x). Deflect Arrows +10/20/30/40%. 5/7/10/15% chance ignore any incoming physical damage, a la Elusive Target. Remove shield bash 1-sec ICD, or at least make it 0.25 sec...not defensive but probably still needs it :)

[dogsoldier]

I am playing a Sword and Shield Vanguard Paladin at the moment, and having played a THF KoTC Paladin recently, I don't think THF is "a lot more DPS" than Vanguard. Certainly both THF KoTC, and Sword/Shield Vanguard are both a lot more DPS than a a build that primarily uses Sacred Defender regardless of whether it uses a two hander or a sword and shield.

On the Pros for shields, given heavy Vanguard AP spend, they have some fun shield attacks, and nice crowd control, the attack speed is very good. And if you go Bastard sword or D.Axe you get the strikethrough as well.

Cons for Shields, it is extremely feat starved, especially with two new shield feats, and it is tight on action points, since you would want to go KoTC at least for Divine Might.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Both are fun to play. There are a lot of DPS characters around so a tank build has slightly more utility in raid and high reaper groups.

[Bjond]

What's your favorite paladin build?

Qstaff can't be beat for Heroics. If you have one of the Qstaffs with a nice profile, it stays on top until 29. It falls waaay behind L29+. It's fine for a quick R1 29->30, but if I wanted to farm RXP on mid+ reaper, I'd not want Qstaff.


a shield build has always made me reluctant [..] large or tower?

Sword & Board is tank only. Your DPS is barely more than half that of THF or other DPS builds. And, the extra defense is nowhere near enough to make up for the much longer fights.

Large shield only. Even for a tank, Tower has almost no place in game. There are a couple raid bosses where I'd consider Tower on high reaper, but for R1 and down, my tank uses large. If you do decide to make a tank, don't turtle up. Agro from your melee is critical. Turtling zeros that extra melee hate. Even my bard pulls agro from turtles.

BTW, if you're chasing flavor for your shield, all shields are identical when it comes to cosmetics. A buckler can look like a tower and vice versa. So, it's possible to have your meta cake and eat it too.


Both are fun to play. There are a lot of DPS characters around so a tank build has slightly more utility in raid and high reaper groups.

Tank utility is as binary as caster DCs. You're either essential or pointless. Most pug raids barely need a tank. Check with your raid/group first to see if anyone is already working on one. My raid group was short a tank and so I made one. Unbeknownst to me, so did two others. Fortunately, mine is a new character -- easy to park just for raids. So, whenever one of the other "tank only" players is on or a puggy tank joins, I swap to something else.

If tank is all you have, making yourself useful in a group that already has one can be difficult. OTH, when the raid lacks a tank and needs one, you make the raid possible.

[Erokir]

Probably shouldn't swap to G-Axe a lot of pally strength comes from favored weps, and sadly G-Axe cannot be a favored weapon, that being said Great Swords kinda suck at cap comparatively, and you are stuck using them as your only two handed favored wep, unless you are Silvanus you can use mauls, but since its a dwarf thats kind out of the question

Why do you think Great Swords suck at level 30 compared to Great Axes?

[Erokir]

Qstaff can't be beat for Heroics. If you have one of the Qstaffs with a nice profile, it stays on top until 29. It falls waaay behind L29+. It's fine for a quick R1 29->30, but if I wanted to farm RXP on mid+ reaper, I'd not want Qstaff.

Large shield only. Even for a tank, Tower has almost no place in game. There are a couple raid bosses where I'd consider Tower on high reaper, but for R1 and down, my tank uses large. If you do decide to make a tank, don't turtle up. Agro from your melee is critical. Turtling zeros that extra melee hate. Even my bard pulls agro from turtles.


Interesting... Would you elaborate on these points?

Why is quarterstaff the best weapon in Heroics? Why does it fall way behind at level 29+?

And why go with a large shield over a tower shield nearly all the time?

[Bjond]

Why is quarterstaff the best weapon in Heroics? Why does it fall way behind at level 29+?

Doublestrike, attack rate, and profile all combine for MUCH improved DPS over what you can get out of other weapons. Heroic has Bloom, epics have Drow & Sireth, L29 has nothing -- just shadow and it's profile is pathetic compared to something like Tail.

L29 removes doublestrike as an advantage, too. Most DPS builds will cap anyway or most of the time (with reaper boost).

So, L29 staff pretty much only has attack rate to make up for the abysmal profile of Shadow and it's not enough.

It's still fun and the animations are so much smoother and nicer than other 2H that I'd stay it's overall more enjoyable; once you've tried something like Silvanus Maul or Tail for L29+, though, staff looks pretty gimpy, which dims the pleasure of playing it.


And why go with a large shield over a tower shield nearly all the time?

Tower offers very little compared to the cost. Your overall mitigation with a tower is always lower (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/518768-Why-would-a-tank-(or-anyone)-use-a-Tower-Shield), for one. The only time I'd consider it would be for VERY heavy magic mitigation and the shield deflection feat. This is so rare that my tank doesn't even take the shield deflection feat and pretty much never blocks -- not even for R1 KT.

If I ever end up with a group that wants to try high skull KT, though, I could absolutely see the need and I'd have to rethink a number of choices I made on all my characters, especially my tank.

[GLITRKING]

Probably shouldn't swap to G-Axe a lot of pally strength comes from favored weps, and sadly G-Axe cannot be a favored weapon, that being said Great Swords kinda suck at cap comparatively, and you are stuck using them as your only two handed favored wep, unless you are Silvanus you can use mauls, but since its a dwarf thats kind out of the question

I'm actually having a pretty good time with this. Paladins, unlike favored souls basically only get some pluses to hit/damage and the Knights training feat with their favored weapons, if you exchange your too hit/damage AP on the KoTC tree for Dwarven Axe on the racial tree the point cost is close. It's a little more, but the nice part is, Dwarven Waraxe becomes a favored weapon at T3. If you're spending feats on the THF line, it works out great because the feats apply to both your greataxe and your waraxe. So basically you're trading off some crit threat/multiplier for AOE. For mobs, I go THF. If I want more defense, I switch to Dwarven W-Axe and Shield. The other nice thing is that you do have to spend some extra AP to get to Dwarevn T3, but it's all stuff you would want, Extra con, extra hitpoints and extra AC. Started testing mine last week to see if I wanted to run it in Hardcore, it's a lot of fun. Now, it is not 100% fully min/maxed but it is very effective and it gives you more options. You can be **** good at both. So far his feats are the 3 THF feats and Shield Mastery. Improved Crit is next and then I've got 2 left to round out the 20. I've been running Reaper 1 Solo and it's been fun.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Probably shouldn't swap to G-Axe a lot of pally strength comes from favored weps, and sadly G-Axe cannot be a favored weapon, that being said Great Swords kinda suck at cap comparatively, and you are stuck using them as your only two handed favored wep, unless you are Silvanus you can use mauls, but since its a dwarf thats kind out of the question

If you're a wood elf, faith of the forest in the racial tree (will cost you 11 AP total) can let you get falchions & get the benefits while using tail of suulomades

[Ganak]

Sacred Defender enhancements, tower shields, ac...pfffftt....


A true vanguard does none of these...

[Erokir]

Doublestrike, attack rate, and profile all combine for MUCH improved DPS over what you can get out of other weapons. Heroic has Bloom, epics have Drow & Sireth, L29 has nothing -- just shadow and it's profile is pathetic compared to something like Tail.

L29 removes doublestrike as an advantage, too. Most DPS builds will cap anyway or most of the time (with reaper boost).

So, L29 staff pretty much only has attack rate to make up for the abysmal profile of Shadow and it's not enough.

It's still fun and the animations are so much smoother and nicer than other 2H that I'd stay it's overall more enjoyable; once you've tried something like Silvanus Maul or Tail for L29+, though, staff looks pretty gimpy, which dims the pleasure of playing it.

Tower offers very little compared to the cost. Your overall mitigation with a tower is always lower (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/518768-Why-would-a-tank-(or-anyone)-use-a-Tower-Shield), for one. The only time I'd consider it would be for VERY heavy magic mitigation and the shield deflection feat. This is so rare that my tank doesn't even take the shield deflection feat and pretty much never blocks -- not even for R1 KT.

If I ever end up with a group that wants to try high skull KT, though, I could absolutely see the need and I'd have to rethink a number of choices I made on all my characters, especially my tank.

When you talk about the attack speed + doublestrike advantage, do you specifically mean when using the Rogue Thief-Acrobat tree?

How does level 29 remove doublestrike as an advantage?

[Discpsycho]

When you talk about the attack speed + doublestrike advantage, do you specifically mean when using the Rogue Thief-Acrobat tree?


Yep. +15% stacking attack speed and +20% doublestrike beat out most other benefits. Quarterstaves have poor innate critical profiles, but select weapons are fantastic and can carry you through to 29:

- Elemental Bloom has 19-20 x3, which becomes 17-20 after Improved Critical and Swords to Plowshares. Factoring in the doublestrike and attack speed, that's better than SoS
- Sireth is competitive in low epics and remains in the top 5 quarterstaves even at cap
- Epic Elemental Bloom has the same profile as the heroic analog

As Bjond mentioned, there aren't many particularly shiny L29 weapons, and these outliers don't stack up as well against weighted 7[W] endgame weapons



How does level 29 remove doublestrike as an advantage?

By the time you equip your L29 gearset, even without raid loot you'll likely be at >50% doublestrike. 23% Cloak of Summer, 11% Vambrace of the Summer Court, 10% Bloodrage Chrism puts you at 44%, and most melee builds get a smidge (or more) elsewhere. Factor in the +30% reaper doublestrike boost, you'll likely be around 90%, plus or minus a few percent.

Doublestrike caps at 100%, so unless you're 75 or below, you're not getting the full benefit of Quick Strikes. The attack speed benefit persists, but endgame staves have poor enough base damage (and no expanded profile) that they're just not worth that attack speed and fraction of doublestrike. Even if you do get the full 25% bonus (eg, your base is 45%, +30% reaper), that adds 1-200/175, or ~14%, to your total damage output. Again, that doesn't compare to the superior crit profile of most other weapons

[shores11]

I prefer a paladin that uses a bastard (long sword at times) and shield as a DPS build.


Vanguard, tier 4 (41 APS & core)
Knight of Chalice, tier 5 (36 APs)
Legendary Dreadnaught (Epic Destiny)
Strength build


I'm getting more attacks than I did as a 2HF (yes more per hit damage) but I get up to 14k to 20k critical hits. I am getting 700 plus on the non-criticals. My AC is just under 200 and my PRR is at about 250. These numbers are not tankish but I am not a tank. I like the look and feel as it role plays out as a knight.

[Erokir]

I'll be mulling all of this over going forward as I plan out my builds.

[Annex]

I play a solo Dagger Rogue 99% of the time but have a 7 year old Paladin on a second account. Over the last 4 years she ran Sword and Shield. While rather sturdy, her damage output was utterly terrible compared to a Dagger Rogue. Even after fixing some Enhancements and Feats because of recent rules updates her fighting strength never improved much.

After returning from a long break, seeing all the posts extolling the virtues of Two Handed Fighting Paladins, I decided to reconfigure the Paladin described above. It took a couple weeks but I pushed her to 30, grabbed an Epic Past Life Feat, and reset her to 20 as a Two Handed Fighting Paladin using a Sword Silver Great Sword from Keep on the Borderlands. As a solo player, the difference is night and day. I hardly feel the loss of defense while the increase in offense is truly massive. While the Paladin still cannot beat one of my Dagger Rogues for sheer destructive mayhem, she can clear a room with ease, takes far less damage, has far fewer 'Uh Oh' moments, has great self healing, and takes down Boss Monsters at an acceptable pace. I do not consider her fun to play but she is easy to play and now I understand why Paladins are so popular.

Having just read Bjond's comments above, I will give Quarterstaff a try. :D

If you play solo, try to squeeze in Quicken Spell and stick a Devotion Augment in your equipment, somewhere, by Level 20. Quicken Spell will prevent monsters from interrupting your Healing spells and thus save your life. The Devotion Augment will seriously boost your Healing spells making it possible to heal through some truly massive damage and keep going with nary a pause. I am still working out the best configuration given my own limitations and now consider those two items very important.