Female Warforged Image

[Bjond]

With the recent post about Warforged cosmetics, I thought I'd point out that all Warforged are male. An art update could fix that. Toasters don't have to be exclusively male. Women can make toast, too. BTW, this is from the now-defunct MMO, Wildstar and yes, it was a real character option and highly customizable. "Mechari" had male & female models.

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[Arkat]

Warforged are, technically, neither male nor female.

"The warforged are one of the playable fictional races of creatures in the Eberron campaign ... While they have no biological sex, warforged may adopt a gender role as part of their individual personality. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warforged#Description


That's a nice picture, though.

[SirValentine]

...I thought I'd point out that all Warforged are male.

In pen-and-paper Eberron lore, Warforged are neither male nor female.

And in DDO, you can choose for your character to be either a male Warforged or a female Warforged.

[Bjond]

Warforged are, technically, neither male nor female.


either a male Warforged or a female Warforged.

I seriously doubt anyone has ever looked at a DDO BF/WF character and thought "she".

[Memnir]

I would have preferred they disabled the Male/Female buttons for WF. For them gender is a wholly personal decision, reflected in personality traits and behavior more than form. Or, if they had given two body-type options, with one being regular human size and the other larger but both still gender neutral. There were lots of folks in the beta who likewise felt that these would have been better to keep the race lore appropriate. If memory serves, and it may not because there has been a lot of years and some legit brain trauma since, the Devs said that the game engine made either of those choices impossible.


Alas, I think that this particular ship sailed a long long time ago.
If that ship can sail back and changes made now, fantastic. I just won't be scanning the horizon with expectations.

[Silverleafeon]

We will likely see the Warforged Scout race someday-maybe as an iconic, maybe as a regular race.

[Bunker]

I seriously doubt anyone has ever looked at a DDO BF/WF character and thought "she".

them, they?

[Evean]

How about they fix the currently broken blade/warforged graphics before they start adding new options?

[rabidfox]

I seriously doubt anyone has ever looked at a DDO BF/WF character and thought "she".

Dorris and her new body would like to have a word with you...

[Deslen]

I seriously doubt anyone has ever looked at a DDO BF/WF character and thought "she".

Look at a battle ship. Sure, it exudes power and danger. Step onboard and call it a 'he'. See how the sailors that man her react =p

Warforged were mass produced during the last war to be weapons, not people. The treaty of thronehold gave them rights. When their commanders came out and told the warforged they now had rights and were free to go, many stood in formation for days before their commanders came back to tell them to disperse.

It was after that that they began to truly explore who they were, and things like pronouns became relevant.

[Aelonwy]

While they have no biological sex, warforged may adopt a gender role as part of their individual personality. "


Except DDO doesn't really let them do that outside of a cheesy voice option.

There's so, so much lore in the game about warforged not truly being automatons, but individuals with souls... and yet as far as structural and aesthetic options go... well none of the lore might as well exist. It makes zero difference to our characters which essentially come out as a fairly standard and singular model even comparing bladeforged to warforged, its the same model with some extra spike & blade accessories.

I long ago made peace with the fact that I would never be able to play a warforged character that truly appealed to me because DDO is too limited.

Warforged simply won't be allowed to grow or change to discover or declare themselves. They make great Pinocchio stories but afterward they're fit back in the box and shelved.

[Justicesfury]

Warforged are, technically, neither male nor female.

"The warforged are one of the playable fictional races of creatures in the Eberron campaign ... While they have no biological sex, warforged may adopt a gender role as part of their individual personality. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warforged#Description


That's a nice picture, though.

Ok Making a new warforge! Naming it Katlyn Jenner for the win!

[SirValentine]

There's so, so much lore in the game about warforged not truly being automatons, but individuals with souls... and yet as far as structural and aesthetic options go... well none of the lore might as well exist.


I'm not sure why having souls changes that their bodies are literally manufactured and do not have a sex. What's the lore contradiction?

[NemesisAlien]

I heard female forge needs 2 docents. :p

[TekkenDevil]

The vast majority of Warforged are made during the war or made by the Lord of Blades - also for war...
Neither manufactory processes cared about gender identity.

They are called WARforged

If some kooky liberal Cannith group decided to make new constructs with genders in mind, they wouldn't be called Warforged anymore, they'd have a whole new model name to factor in the design changes.

[Aelonwy]

I'm not sure why having souls changes that their bodies are literally manufactured and do not have a sex. What's the lore contradiction?

Its that they should be able to change their bodies, their structures, as they so determine. Especially as they have "body feats." Its like the Shadarkai, not being able to use a store hairstyle, it doesn't make sense. What prevents them from changing their hair but not their class or faith? What prevents the warforged as they increase in experience and self determination from making of themselves whatever they want? Nothing except those "options" are not available. And yet I know I've read that they are capable of modifying themselves. I'm not saying they need human secondary sexual characteristics but every article I can find on them says they came in multiple sizes and designs. They talk about successive models coming from the creation forges. Successive models, ergo there were many. We know one for certain, the Scout Model has not graced Stormreach. I would be happy enough with a smaller, lithe version of warforged but no the only model we've gotten is the masculine (by proportions) form of a comic book superhero.

Assuming they actually have souls (as they do in lore) it stands to reason that they would make adjustments to their structure to reflect their sense of self. The issue here is not that it isn't possible or likely in lore, the issue is that no effort has been made in art assets or animations to accommodate those possibilities.

https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Warforged
https://www.worldanvil.com/w/eberron-mattbayer34/a/warforged-article

[Satyriasys]

There are different warforged chassis and many warforged alter their bodies. They should must add a secondary more feminine body type to the race,

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

In another thread about Warforged I had posted an image of a female looking Warforged one from one of the Eberron source books. It was available in one of the archived internet articles of Wizards of the Coast.

[Matuse]

Look at a battle ship. Sure, it exudes power and danger. Step onboard and call it a 'he'. See how the sailors that man her react =p

All warships are referred to as "She". Seriously. All of them. Since the dawn of human civilization.

[Aelonwy]

There are different warforged chassis and many warforged alter their bodies.

Exactly.


They should must add a secondary more feminine body type to the race,

I wouldn't even request something overtly feminine, just something more slender with less obviously masculine proportions would satisfy me.

[SirValentine]

I wouldn't even request something overtly feminine, just something more slender with less obviously masculine proportions would satisfy me.

I don't see how we have anything "obviously masculine" right now.

[myliftkk_v2]

I don't see how we have anything "obviously masculine" right now.

Jeets would beg to differ.

[Aelonwy]

I don't see how we have anything "obviously masculine" right now.

Then you never took a life-drawing art class or drew comic book characters. The proportions of our warforged are the typical masculine hero with narrow hips, wide shoulders, muscular chest and arms. There is a difference between masculine and male. Its a subtle difference I'll grant you but it exists. If you are looking for warforged to have actual genders or think that is what I am saying you are taking my words further than my intended meaning.

Most but not all warforged were designed specifically for war, I can accept that those meant for warfare were designed in a facsimile of form with strength in mind. But some warforged were made to be scouts and envoys and their forms? chassis? were not so proportioned, let alone that warforged can alter themselves.

The lore from the handbooks indicates they came in many shapes and sizes, indicates there were more styles? forms of warforged, indicates they could and did alter those forms themselves. I am only advocating for a greater variety of options when creating warforged characters, preferably a warforged body type with more slender proportions.

https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/723UA_EberronRaces7232018.pdf See page 9, Juggernaut, Skirmisher (Scout?), Envoy.

Can anyone use lore to back up what we currently have in DDO? All warforged having the exact same body-type (not body feats) but the same proportional form? Every single one? What we currently have seem more like Warforged Juggernauts used as the generic warforged race. If it had truly been the generic race at character creation where you get to choose "Base Color" it should have given at least two body type choices, one as we have and a slighter, lithe proportioned body-shape that could appeal to those wanting to play a more stealthy or less combat-oriented warforged, which would incidentally also work well-enough for those that want to play a warforged that chooses to be feminine.

[Memnir]

Can anyone use lore to back up what we currently have in DDO? All warforged having the exact same body-type (not body feats) but the same proportional form? Every single one? It's not exactly lore, per say... but I've headcannon'd that all of DDO's Warforged are from the first generation to gain sentience. This was before a lot of the specialized versions that were produced in the Last War. Those GenOnes that survived the war came to Xen'Drik to escape their past and find their specific niche identity. So yeah, not lore - but it could've happened.

Not perfect, but it's helped me to not grit my teeth a lot while playing Warforged (my favorite PnP race). :D

[SirValentine]

Then you never took a life-drawing art class...


"life-drawing"? Really? We are talking about a fictional race of artificial constructs.



The proportions of our warforged are the typical masculine hero...


No, they're not. Interpreting these machines that were literally forged for war as "masculine" is projecting fleshy humanoid sexist biases and preconceptions somewhere that they just don't apply. Do you refer to real-life HMMWVs as "masculine"? Or, as someone mentioned, battleships?

It makes as much sense as me claiming they are typically feminine because they are large, the same way many species of female spiders or fish are larger than the males. Or typically feminine because they don't have beards. But Warforged are not fish, nor spiders...nor humans. Neither body size nor hips nor facial hair are relevant. Human standards of masculine or feminine simply do not apply.



I am only advocating for a greater variety of options when creating warforged characters....


More cosmetic options in general, both for Warforged and for other races, is A Good Thing. I'm not disagreeing with that. Asking for more options just because we want more options is reason enough all by itself.

I just refuse to accept the unjustified sexist nonsense as a "reason" for it. It's not. The OP falsely claimed that all our Warforged are male, and you barely toned it down to claiming that they are all "masculine". Not even all humans share your view of what is or isn't masculine or feminine, even in humans, let alone in designed and manufactured beings.

[Jaxtan]

"life-drawing"? Really? We are talking about a fictional race of artificial constructs.



No, they're not. Interpreting these machines that were literally forged for war as "masculine" is projecting fleshy humanoid sexist biases and preconceptions somewhere that they just don't apply. Do you refer to real-life HMMWVs as "masculine"? Or, as someone mentioned, battleships?

It makes as much sense as me claiming they are typically feminine because they are large, the same way many species of female spiders or fish are larger than the males. Or typically feminine because they don't have beards. But Warforged are not fish, nor spiders...nor humans. Neither body size nor hips nor facial hair are relevant. Human standards of masculine or feminine simply do not apply.



More cosmetic options in general, both for Warforged and for other races, is A Good Thing. I'm not disagreeing with that. Asking for more options just because we want more options is reason enough all by itself.

I just refuse to accept the unjustified sexist nonsense as a "reason" for it. It's not. The OP falsely claimed that all our Warforged are male, and you barely toned it down to claiming that they are all "masculine". Not even all humans share your view of what is or isn't masculine or feminine, even in humans, let alone in designed and manufactured beings.

LOL, this may be the dumbest post I have every seen for a game. Hahahahaahahahahahahahaha......

[cdbd3rd]

[[Not cool, Jax. Keep it about the warforged.]]


I'm all about options as well, pretty much across the board. In this case, making major alteration to the base WF frame would also mean going through all equipment and cosmo, making adjustments to ALL of it, then bugging back through it all checking for clipping or floating pieces. Just pointing out that it's a lot deeper than just grabbing their wire frame, dragging it in/out here & there and hitting Save.

Side note for amusement: Is the default setting for Warforged gender still set to female? [edit: Logged in to check = Either the default is female for all races, or just whatever we rolled last... ]

[Artos_Fabril]

"life-drawing"? Really? We are talking about a fictional race of artificial constructs.Created by (fictional) humanoids (created/imagined by real humans) who cared enough about function over form to make them at least humanoid in appearance. And we've got enough in-game background on House Cannith to know that at least some artificers care about aesthetics, without even getting into the cannon variants from PnP.

No, they're not. Interpreting these machines that were literally forged for war as "masculine" is projecting fleshy humanoid sexist biases and preconceptions somewhere that they just don't apply. Do you refer to real-life HMMWVs as "masculine"? Or, as someone mentioned, battleships?You're (deliberately or ignorantly) confusing "stereotypically masculine proportions" with gender.

It makes as much sense as me claiming they are typically feminine because they are large, the same way many species of female spiders or fish are larger than the males. Or typically feminine because they don't have beards. But Warforged are not fish, nor spiders...nor humans. Neither body size nor hips nor facial hair are relevant. Human standards of masculine or feminine simply do not apply.And now you're confusing sexual dimorphism in fauna with Human/Demi-human Aesthetics.

More cosmetic options in general, both for Warforged and for other races, is A Good Thing. I'm not disagreeing with that. Asking for more options just because we want more options is reason enough all by itself.

I just refuse to accept the unjustified sexist nonsense as a "reason" for it. It's not. The OP falsely claimed that all our Warforged are male, and you barely toned it down to claiming that they are all "masculine". Not even all humans share your view of what is or isn't masculine or feminine, even in humans, let alone in designed and manufactured beings.If your only argument is against using the term "masculine" as shorthand for "Characteristics consistent with heightened testosterone levels during maturation and a lack of female secondary sexual characteristics" then you're just being needlessly obtuse. If you were truly concerned that referring to the standard warforged bodytype as "masculine" was sexist, you would be equally concerned with the sexism inherent in designing manufactured soldiers as all possessing stereotypically masculine bodies.

[Aelonwy]

"life-drawing"? Really? We are talking about a fictional race of artificial constructs.



No, they're not. Interpreting these machines that were literally forged for war as "masculine" is projecting fleshy humanoid sexist biases and preconceptions somewhere that they just don't apply. Do you refer to real-life HMMWVs as "masculine"? Or, as someone mentioned, battleships?

It makes as much sense as me claiming they are typically feminine because they are large, the same way many species of female spiders or fish are larger than the males. Or typically feminine because they don't have beards. But Warforged are not fish, nor spiders...nor humans. Neither body size nor hips nor facial hair are relevant. Human standards of masculine or feminine simply do not apply.



More cosmetic options in general, both for Warforged and for other races, is A Good Thing. I'm not disagreeing with that. Asking for more options just because we want more options is reason enough all by itself.

I just refuse to accept the unjustified sexist nonsense as a "reason" for it. It's not. The OP falsely claimed that all our Warforged are male, and you barely toned it down to claiming that they are all "masculine". Not even all humans share your view of what is or isn't masculine or feminine, even in humans, let alone in designed and manufactured beings.

I don't think I can take any of this seriously. Did you examine even one of the links I posted? Yes they are as you put it a "fictional race of constructs" but they are also an artists rendition of a human-imagined concept. As such, they can be described using terms and concepts widely accepted by humanity because they were imagined by humanity and visually created by humanity. Whether you approve of those concepts and descriptions or interpretations is largely irrelevant because you are not the only viewer. No not all humans share my point of view, neither obviously does everyone share yours.

You keep missing the point.

You are fixated for whatever reason on a question of masculine to feminine and it is only a very small part of what I have been trying to communicate. It is an aside and not the main objective.

The main point, according to the lore that I have made 3 separate links to in this thread:

Warforged came in many shapes & sizes
There were multiple generations of warforged with different models & designs
Warforged are capable of modifying themselves


So then why are the warforged we have for character creation so limited?

Memnir is the only one to offer anything at all in the way of a reasonable explanation. Thank you Memnir.

[Deslen]

It's quite possible for them to add another warforged chassis. One already exists..
The warforged NPC model. I'd be perfectly happy to see it adapted for PC use. Though coding it might be a pain, theoretically when creating a WF body type and 'gender' should be separate choices.

I'd also love to see warforged scouts. Then again, I'd be happy to see any of dozens of races implemented.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

The novels contain very different models, and yes, female Warforged ones are there, too. One is even in a novel by the Eberron creator himself.

[Memnir]

Thank you Memnir.Anytime. :)

https://i.imgur.com/55MtNRL.gif

[OfElectricMen]

I thought I'd point out that all Warforged are male.

No, they aren't. Cool but utterly unrelated pic though.

[Gregen]

I'm just going to say it would be cool if they added a body type option in character creation for warforged. Just two options per gender would be enough. Type 1 for both would be the default that already exists. Type 2 for male could be a bit more slender physique and for female could be a slightly feminine physique. I'm not expecting it and I'm probably never going to play a warforged anyway, but it would still be cool.

[Kenpai]

I hold the opposite opinion; current Warforged look FAR too feminine to be called a "male" race. Gender-neutral at best.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm fine with playing feminine races like Warforged, but if the devs REALLY wanted to make a distinctively male counterpart to the current body type and let us finally play as male 'Forged, I wouldn't oppose their decision.
But please let the MenForged exude masculinity with options for beards, moustaches, sideburns, tonsures, comb overs, five o'clock shadow, chiseled jawlines, etc.

Something like this, but in the style of DDO

https://i.imgur.com/2YDHQiB.png

[Bjond]

Something like this, but in the style of DDO

I doubt a decade of art classes could make that image understandable as human, much less male. The torso is on backwards and it's face has been eaten by Cthulhu.

Female Warforged use the male skeletons and animations in DDO. At least with Dragonborn (the other non-mammalian choice), females use DDO's female skeleton and anims.

If you want an example of Androgyny, here's the original icon for that:

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[Annex]

How come Warforged cannot wear shirts and pants and shoes?

Can a warforged transfer its conscious from one warforged body to another?

Do warforged have souls?

[Kenpai]

I doubt a decade of art classes could make that image understandable as human

Good thing it's an image of a Warforged, a non-human artificial lifeform constructed from wood and metals, and not a Human. Thank you for supporting my point. :)

[Aelonwy]

Can a warforged transfer its conscious from one warforged body to another?

Do warforged have souls?

Run the Soulsplitter adventure pack, all answers within.

As to shirt and pants and shoes? Yes and no. Most cosmetics and armors don't look like regular clothes on warforged but there are a handful that were properly resized for warforged bodies and feet. Temple of Elemental Evil Docents for instance, including matching boots, Sharn Docents, most expansion cosmetics are resized to properly fit warforged bodies and I believe the Swashbuckling store outfit does as well. Regular shoes I do not recall seeing... but boots definitely.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legendary_Ironheart <has boots, matches the humanoid armor
https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Etched_Temple_Docent <has boots, mostly matches the humanoid armor version
https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Plasma_Core <has pants, and boots, matches the humanoid version

[Xgya]

Except DDO doesn't really let them do that outside of a cheesy voice option.

There's so, so much lore in the game about warforged not truly being automatons, but individuals with souls... and yet as far as structural and aesthetic options go... well none of the lore might as well exist. It makes zero difference to our characters which essentially come out as a fairly standard and singular model even comparing bladeforged to warforged, its the same model with some extra spike & blade accessories.

I long ago made peace with the fact that I would never be able to play a warforged character that truly appealed to me because DDO is too limited.

Warforged simply won't be allowed to grow or change to discover or declare themselves. They make great Pinocchio stories but afterward they're fit back in the box and shelved.

You can say this of EVERY available character in DDO.
"There's so, so much lore in the game about *elves* not truly being automatons, but individuals with souls... and yet as far as structural and aesthetic optons go... well none of the lore might as well exist. It makes zero difference to our characters which essentially come out as a fairly standard and singular model even comparing Sun Elves to High Elves"

Sole difference is Elves, having hair, can choose to style it differently, and the extra options given to them stop there.

Most of your character's personality and outlooks in DDO, or their ability to "grow or change to discover or declare themselves", as you so eloquently put it, is entirely left to imagination.
If you play with a roleplaying party or guild, it might get noticed by others. Your Gnome Artificer might have an ancestral familial quest to create the perfect automated turkey baster, and base his whole life around that singular mission. Your Warforged Bard, not having hair, has decided to experience it vicariously by becoming the most renowned hair stylist on Khorvaire.

Addendum:
Warforged being quite literally chain-produced weapons of war means a lot of them will look like a lot of the others.
The main difference will come in the way they experience life, and, sometimes, the way they dress.
The only exception to this are the Warforged that specifically ask for a complete remodel, and the Reforged.

[GramercyRiff]

Agreed with Kenpai aka the only remotely sensible post itt.

[Annex]

Run the Soulsplitter adventure pack, all answers within.

Unfortunately, I do not have the time right now.

.....

While I am genuinely curious about how Warforged work I will seek that conversation elsewhere. Good day to you all.

[myliftkk_v2]

So then why are the warforged we have for character creation so limited?


Are we asking this question seriously?

If I wanted compelling robots I wouldn't trust SSG staff to install the batteries, much less draw them.

[Josielynn]

With the recent post about Warforged cosmetics, I thought I'd point out that all Warforged are male. An art update could fix that. Toasters don't have to be exclusively male. Women can make toast, too. BTW, this is from the now-defunct MMO, Wildstar and yes, it was a real character option and highly customizable. "Mechari" had male & female models.

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I like it.

[Oxarhamar]

With the recent post about Warforged cosmetics, I thought I'd point out that all Warforged are male. An art update could fix that. Toasters don't have to be exclusively male. Women can make toast, too. BTW, this is from the now-defunct MMO, Wildstar and yes, it was a real character option and highly customizable. "Mechari" had male & female models.

1479

+1

[Jerevth]

DDO seems to hint at the original creators of the WF being the Quori in Eye of the Titan. That's my take on it, at least.
House Cannith picked up the remnants and re-engineered WF manufacture long after the Quori-Giant wars for their own warmachine. (Or reactivating those they found and claiming House Created them.)
How did the Quori make them? Mindsunders rip the soul out; Maybe they put the stripped-down soul into the WF and those who developing gender identity are the result of the soul regaining its past? But other than fighting the fodder of the giant army (gnolls, minotaurs, hobgobs and orcs) they appear to just be the retinue for WF Titans which dealt with the giants directly.

WF are a genderless species, anatomically. Wood and metal bodies with a masculine design makes sense for heavy lifting and heavy hitting. (Masculine does not automatically infer gender, but muscularity- a physically strong woman can be more masculine than some guys.) Lithe forms would be ideal for scouting; easier to hide, faster movement- less weight- would be tremendous advantages. But in building up a war machine, the masculine types will be the largest number present for the physical requirements of combat. Scouts would break more easily; less structural mass, lighter forms, but as small strike forces- or solo units- they could do significant damage to an enemy force. (Sneaking in to disable, assassinate, poison, trap, sabotage, etc.) I think the original creators of Eberron missed a great chance to create something more alien. Quori are obviously imaginative, being from the realm of nightmares.

No matter how enlightened we think we are, I doubt many of us can think in terms of a genderless species. The pic of a "Female" mech above illustrates it. What is the point of breasts on an asexual race, other than to attract male gamers? We can't overcome anthropomorphism and pareidolia- seeing human traits/likenesses in the world around us.

Side note: The French Navy, apparently, call their ships "He", as does Poland. The Russian Navy refers to their ships with the pronoun appropriate to the name of the ship. (Female name, female pronoun.)

[myliftkk_v2]

WF are a genderless species, anatomically. Wood and metal bodies with a masculine design makes sense for heavy lifting and heavy hitting. (Masculine does not automatically infer gender, but muscularity- a physically strong woman can be more masculine than some guys.) Lithe forms would be ideal for scouting; easier to hide, faster movement- less weight- would be tremendous advantages. But in building up a war machine, the masculine types will be the largest number present for the physical requirements of combat. Scouts would break more easily; less structural mass, lighter forms, but as small strike forces- or solo units- they could do significant damage to an enemy force. (Sneaking in to disable, assassinate, poison, trap, sabotage, etc.) I think the original creators of Eberron missed a great chance to create something more alien. Quori are obviously imaginative, being from the realm of nightmares.

You've got the reasoning for the population variance backwards.

This is where much of D&D fails to get very far beyond the common tropes of military hardware circa WWII. The trend since, in robotic and human systems has always been about mass production and minimizing materials required. Big and bulky only makes sense when material and tech are weak enough that they can create a new weapon system, but can't scale them. At scale, smaller, lithe, more lethal robotics will win out every time.

Same reason why bigger humans make bigger targets on a battlefield.

At best, the bulky WF would have been akin to freight haulers made with substandard materials and useful for mostly moving stuff around in the rearguard areas. Someone had to move all those crates around the manufactury after all.

[cru121]

Warforged are typically sexless in body shape, so some do not bother with the concept of gender, while others adopt a gender identity.
...
The warforged have a sexless form. The warforged are able to be repaired and modified by artificers or even themselves, giving them an endless possibility to their appearances.
...
There are warforged who have taken an interest in their neighbor's culture and ways of life and have chosen to wear clothes and imitate their country men's accents and manners.

Quote comes from Eberron wiki (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Warforged). There's absolutely no reason why feminine forms should be excluded from warforged.

[Xgya]

You've got the reasoning for the population variance backwards.

This is where much of D&D fails to get very far beyond the common tropes of military hardware circa WWII. The trend since, in robotic and human systems has always been about mass production and minimizing materials required. Big and bulky only makes sense when material and tech are weak enough that they can create a new weapon system, but can't scale them. At scale, smaller, lithe, more lethal robotics will win out every time.

Same reason why bigger humans make bigger targets on a battlefield.

At best, the bulky WF would have been akin to freight haulers made with substandard materials and useful for mostly moving stuff around in the rearguard areas. Someone had to move all those crates around the manufactury after all.

Warforged were built for melee combat, to be disposable foot soldiers.

Our current paradigm would make modern soldiers spellcasters in the D&D frame of reference.
Paratroopers are just Wizards with teleportation magic. Bazookas? Ever heard of fireballs?
Even sniping is done better through magic, and with scrying spells, you've got the magical equivalent of drone bombing.

Big and bulky makes sense even if you can scale down the system, because that means you can make the bigger system stronger by comparison.
If you could make a Warforged as strong as a Warforged Titan without the size, it would mean you could make an ACTUAL Warforged Titan that much stronger.

Warforged were built for times when magic(or technology) isn't available in sufficient amount to cover the area, and you need some kind of inexpensive physical presence you can afford to lose.

The warforged were clearly cheaply made at a time where more advanced construct construction technology existed. If they could have outfitted the whole army as magic-immune Iron Golems, they would have. The first warforged were mindless automatons.
They were the human skeletons and zombies of the usual necromancer army, just more socially acceptable.

[Jerevth]

You've got the reasoning for the population variance backwards.

This is where much of D&D fails to get very far beyond the common tropes of military hardware circa WWII. The trend since, in robotic and human systems has always been about mass production and minimizing materials required. Big and bulky only makes sense when material and tech are weak enough that they can create a new weapon system, but can't scale them. At scale, smaller, lithe, more lethal robotics will win out every time.

Same reason why bigger humans make bigger targets on a battlefield.

At best, the bulky WF would have been akin to freight haulers made with substandard materials and useful for mostly moving stuff around in the rearguard areas. Someone had to move all those crates around the manufactury after all.

When your primary building resource grows on trees, literally, though...
More fiber (living construct wood) would mean more strength.
The manned tanks, with the thickest armor, are still among the largest on the battlefields.

But I agree the light and limber would be deadly effective in greater numbers but in terms of mass, a twig will shatter where a trunk absorbs the blow. Bigger WF, made of the same materials, would seem better suited and more capable as grunts. I did wonder about halfling sized warforged, though... sneaky little buggers.

[LightBear]

Exactly.

I wouldn't even request something overtly feminine, just something more slender with less obviously masculine proportions would satisfy me.

Female tend to have more rounded curves.

Imho, this is a nice example:
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/5e/89/0d/5e890dde3123556b8eb86100e210093f.jpg
Nothing over the top, still distinct enough to mark it as female.
(And apologies for all the females, males and non-binaries that have this body type and do not identify with the female sex.)

Imho, the option we had for the last 15 years was, and still is, overly male.
This mostly comes from the square jaws and hooked curves around the head, but the big v shape of the torso and the flat bum also doesn't help.
(Again, apologies.)

[Bjond]

Imho, this is a nice example

MUCH better example than the one I put up in the 1st post. Wildstar was a bit "cartoony" for all the characters -- lots of "PDK" style art, which worked out great there because all the art was like that instead of just one glaringly out-of-place race.

In a race that can modify itself at will subject only to imagination, you really should see more and more variation over time. Uniformity would only occur immediately after production or when enforced.

[Xgya]

In a race that can modify itself at will subject only to imagination, you really should see more and more variation over time. Uniformity would only occur immediately after production or when enforced.

Most Warforged start out at the bottom of the ladder.

This single claim made here assumes the Warforged forced to live in the Cogs could afford to hire a professional craftsman to work on them for an extended period of time to do those modifications. (you're making it sound like it's something available to all Warforged)

Body modifications cost more than several high level magical items (i.e: several centuries of less dangerous work). Non-adventurers, as well as first level adventurers (the level all Warforged start at) couldn't afford to do that, so follow the standard Warforged body type.

Variation over time should only happen to those select individuals that can afford to stay put for the months necessary for the modification to be made - something that's not usually an option for any regular adventurer - and can afford to have it done.

You also have to remember that Warforged are just out of abject poverty themselves, having been considered no more than appliances until a tiny few human generations ago.

Final thing is that working on Warforged in any extensive manner is still subject to taboo. Not as much as attempting to create new Warforged by any means, but you can expect this kind of work to be strictly regulated, which would require an even more specialized, thus expensive, craftsmanship to handle.

TL;DR: Uniformity IS enforced. Enforced by Warforged not having the means to get modified.

[Bjond]

Variation over time should only happen to those select individuals that can afford to stay put for the months necessary for the modification to be made

Uh, lol, no -- a hacksaw would work. I think you seriously underestimate the will of sentient creatures to let their freak flag fly (so to speak) when the culture even slightly supports it, not to mention the drive for simple individuality. Sure, those that are better off might end up with a more artistic result, but there's zero chance of uniformity due to economics.

Even prisoners with no official access to anything find ways to tattoo themselves. The 'forged equivalent of a prison tattoo could easily be something like nailing or gluing stuff to themselves; heaven help us the day war-forged discover the bedazzler. "We are no longer warforged! We are glitter-forged!"

I'd expect a plethora of variations within months after leaving an enforced uniformity situation, like the military. I'd also expect only those desiring to fit in with the locals to make themselves look like the locals.

[cru121]

Most Warforged start out at the bottom of the ladder.

This single claim made here assumes the Warforged forced to live in the Cogs could afford to hire a professional craftsman to work on them for an extended period of time to do those modifications. (you're making it sound like it's something available to all Warforged)

Body modifications cost more than several high level magical items (i.e: several centuries of less dangerous work). Non-adventurers, as well as first level adventurers (the level all Warforged start at) couldn't afford to do that, so follow the standard Warforged body type.

Variation over time should only happen to those select individuals that can afford to stay put for the months necessary for the modification to be made - something that's not usually an option for any regular adventurer - and can afford to have it done.

You also have to remember that Warforged are just out of abject poverty themselves, having been considered no more than appliances until a tiny few human generations ago.

Final thing is that working on Warforged in any extensive manner is still subject to taboo. Not as much as attempting to create new Warforged by any means, but you can expect this kind of work to be strictly regulated, which would require an even more specialized, thus expensive, craftsmanship to handle.

TL;DR: Uniformity IS enforced. Enforced by Warforged not having the means to get modified.

Excuse me, are you Keith Baker or just making these up? Why would body modifications cost more than high level magical items? Can you quote me some source material? Our characters are level 30 demigods decked with unfathomable artifacts. If my Warforged wants a cosmetic boob, she should be able to get it.

[Oxarhamar]

Most Warforged start out at the bottom of the ladder.

This single claim made here assumes the Warforged forced to live in the Cogs could afford to hire a professional craftsman to work on them for an extended period of time to do those modifications. (you're making it sound like it's something available to all Warforged)

Body modifications cost more than several high level magical items (i.e: several centuries of less dangerous work). Non-adventurers, as well as first level adventurers (the level all Warforged start at) couldn't afford to do that, so follow the standard Warforged body type.

Variation over time should only happen to those select individuals that can afford to stay put for the months necessary for the modification to be made - something that's not usually an option for any regular adventurer - and can afford to have it done.

You also have to remember that Warforged are just out of abject poverty themselves, having been considered no more than appliances until a tiny few human generations ago.

Final thing is that working on Warforged in any extensive manner is still subject to taboo. Not as much as attempting to create new Warforged by any means, but you can expect this kind of work to be strictly regulated, which would require an even more specialized, thus expensive, craftsmanship to handle.

TL;DR: Uniformity IS enforced. Enforced by Warforged not having the means to get modified.

Citations?

[Jerevth]

Citations?

Dorris. She gets mighty talkative after a few tasty ham oils.

[Xgya]

Simple. The only examples of body modifications we have are Warforged (and other construct-related) Grafts.

Things as simple as a Locking Hand (a Maug graft - no more than a locking gauntlet that's made to be attached to a construct) already costs 2K gold. The non-magical equivalent that does the job twice as well as the graft costs 8 gold pieces.

Similar augmentations allowing legs to be replaced cost around 10K.

Adding spikes, changing paint - anything surface-level - would work and be relatively cheap.
Ex: Adding armor spikes to a 'forged costs as much as adding them to ordinary armor.

Anything beyond that, or below the surface, or you want to make part of the construct's body to the point it's actually considered part of them - so it can't be sundered, and will heal when repairing or divine healing magic is applied - now THAT's the complicated part.

Cut the 'forged and add them a nice waistline, and see them regrow whatever was cut out as they try to heal combat or daily injuries. Unlike most healing magic, that actually singles out scarring and dismemberment, repair magic has no such issues.

[salmag]

Most Warforged start out at the bottom of the ladder.

This single claim made here assumes the Warforged forced to live in the Cogs could afford to hire a professional craftsman to work on them for an extended period of time to do those modifications. (you're making it sound like it's something available to all Warforged)

Body modifications cost more than several high level magical items (i.e: several centuries of less dangerous work). Non-adventurers, as well as first level adventurers (the level all Warforged start at) couldn't afford to do that, so follow the standard Warforged body type.

Variation over time should only happen to those select individuals that can afford to stay put for the months necessary for the modification to be made - something that's not usually an option for any regular adventurer - and can afford to have it done.

You also have to remember that Warforged are just out of abject poverty themselves, having been considered no more than appliances until a tiny few human generations ago.

Final thing is that working on Warforged in any extensive manner is still subject to taboo. Not as much as attempting to create new Warforged by any means, but you can expect this kind of work to be strictly regulated, which would require an even more specialized, thus expensive, craftsmanship to handle.

TL;DR: Uniformity IS enforced. Enforced by Warforged not having the means to get modified.

Making the assumption that this is true, WF that are just off the assembly line probably cannot afford body modifications without a benefactor. However, Adventuring WF, of which we players are, can most definitely afford body modifications. If an Adventuring WF identifies as female, there should be no stopping them from modifying their body type.

Where are the WF Scouts (halfling sized WF)? Where is Twiki?

[Xgya]

Making the assumption that this is true, WF that are just off the assembly line probably cannot afford body modifications without a benefactor. However, Adventuring WF, of which we players are, can most definitely afford body modifications. If an Adventuring WF identifies as female, there should be no stopping them from modifying their body type.

Where are the WF Scouts (halfling sized WF)? Where is Twiki?

WF scouts are an entirely different race that might or might not get introduced at some point.
It's not a modified WF made to be small.
I don't think we'll ever get Warforged Chargers, their Large equivalent.

My very point is that at creation - before going on any kind of adventure - WF should look like they were made from the same mold.
That any modification shouldn't come from the character creation screen, but in-game cosmetic items.

[salmag]

WF scouts are an entirely different race that might or might not get introduced at some point.
It's not a modified WF made to be small.
I don't think we'll ever get Warforged Chargers, their Large equivalent.

True about WF Scouts... I just want them in game ;)

My very point is that at creation - before going on any kind of adventure - WF should look like they were made from the same mold.
That any modification shouldn't come from the character creation screen, but in-game cosmetic items.

DDO doesn't allow any backstory to clarify why a body modification was done.

If you want a reason, here's one - at creation, a wealthy benefactor from Stormreach may have commissioned a different body type from House Cannith. Why? Who knows. That is up to the benefactor.

When the WF was coming to Stormreach, a white dragon attacked and the WF ended up at the Grotto.

[myliftkk_v2]

Big and bulky makes sense even if you can scale down the system, because that means you can make the bigger system stronger by comparison.
If you could make a Warforged as strong as a Warforged Titan without the size, it would mean you could make an ACTUAL Warforged Titan that much stronger.


There's no correlation there. Bigger systems are weaker by comparison due to large target profiles and larger weak points. Then the amount of resources required to armor those systems get prohibitive.

Small, quick, lethal would be advanced warfares logical end in any fantasy setting that wasn't trapped by romanticism about older forms of warfare that were pretty illogical.

It's always cheaper to field a small, quick, more lethal system than it is building the equivalent of tanky human replacements. The army travels on its stomach, or oil, in the case of warforged, if you will.

[myliftkk_v2]

Uh, lol, no -- a hacksaw would work. I think you seriously underestimate the will of sentient creatures to let their freak flag fly (so to speak) when the culture even slightly supports it, not to mention the drive for simple individuality. Sure, those that are better off might end up with a more artistic result, but there's zero chance of uniformity due to economics.

Even prisoners with no official access to anything find ways to tattoo themselves. The 'forged equivalent of a prison tattoo could easily be something like nailing or gluing stuff to themselves; heaven help us the day war-forged discover the bedazzler. "We are no longer warforged! We are glitter-forged!"

I'd expect a plethora of variations within months after leaving an enforced uniformity situation, like the military. I'd also expect only those desiring to fit in with the locals to make themselves look like the locals.

Upon gaining sentience, they would necessarily come to understand that there were immense social benefits to presentation and modify themselves accordingly in either response to rejection to those realities.

[Xgya]

There's no correlation there. Bigger systems are weaker by comparison due to large target profiles and larger weak points. Then the amount of resources required to armor those systems get prohibitive.

Small, quick, lethal would be advanced warfares logical end in any fantasy setting that wasn't trapped by romanticism about older forms of warfare that were pretty illogical.

It's always cheaper to field a small, quick, more lethal system than it is building the equivalent of tanky human replacements. The army travels on its stomach, or oil, in the case of warforged, if you will.

There are no structural weak points on constructs. None to exploit.
There's a reason sneak attacks are impossible against them barring some very specific training or equally-specific magic. Nothing will stop them from moving, fully operational, until they've taken enough structural damage to stop them as a whole.

Warforged are quite literal magic.
There's as much amount of resources needed to maintain a Warforged army as there is to maintain a skeletal one once animated.

You're right that small, quick and lethal should be the way to go.
A single spellcaster will do what thousands of Fighters won't.
The only defense against sufficiently strong magic is even stronger magic, or smarter use of the same.

The Warforged were built with that illogical thought in mind that you need actual manpower to win wars.
In a world where laws of physics are more of a suggestion than a hard rule, there are people still traveling by horse carts.

What few laws there ARE left to respect show us that making small but lethal costs more than large and bulky.

[Knightrose]

What I really want is more hair and beard options. I just can't properly RP my hobo WF without a wire brush beard and hot, twisted rebar dreads.

[Bjond]

There are no structural weak points on constructs. None to exploit

They have joints. Jujitsu would work just as well v warforged as humans. Same joints. Same leverage points.

I think you're confusing constructs with oozes. Now there's a completely different set of weaknesses.


Warforged are quite literal magic.

I've often wondered why WF don't die walking through an anti-magic cone and why wizards can't insta-kill them easily with a L1 "off-button" spell. Or, if you're positing they carry an independent power source, why rogues with enough UMD can't insta-"kill" them with a "battery-pluck" maneuver.


In a world where laws of physics are more of a suggestion than a hard rule

Exactly. Reality can't sit in judgment over Fantasy. Story is infinitely malleable. D&D biggest fault is that it picks the Story then it bends the rules around enforce it. This is the primary reason for DDO's balance troubles. If DDO picked meta first, balance would be easy and Story can be cut to fit.

D&D itself is non-sciencical.


What I really want is more hair and beard options. I just can't properly RP my hobo WF without a wire brush beard and hot, twisted rebar dreads.

LOL. Bladeforged have some options that are moderately close to that .. sans beard. Fembots don't exist at all.

IMHO, WF should have tons of really crazy options that might be truly unique to WF alone; eg. asymmetrical modifications and other things fleshies just can't do in order to express their unique heritage. 'Course, they should also have "conformity" options as well and there should likely be cultural friction between those who conform (perhaps for better employment opportunities or acceptance) v those who do not.

'Course then it wouldn't be D&D, which is a game entirely built around racial stereotypes and conformity; "it's an orc, kill it!" (why? because orcs are evil .. )

[Xgya]

They have joints. Jujitsu would work just as well v warforged as humans. Same joints. Same leverage points.

I think you're confusing constructs with oozes. Now there's a completely different set of weaknesses.

You can tear at the joints of a large construct just as well as you could from a small one.
Probably easier on a smaller construct given their lower Strength scores.



I've often wondered why WF don't die walking through an anti-magic cone and why wizards can't insta-kill them easily with a L1 "off-button" spell. Or, if you're positing they carry an independent power source, why rogues with enough UMD can't insta-"kill" them with a "battery-pluck" maneuver.

Same reason an antimagic field won't simply make skeletons fall down or poof liches out of existence. Magic works in mysterious ways. There are rules that are clearly explained as to what exactly works (though not often why), such as a thin sheet of lead blocking magic detection the same way it blocks Superman's X-Ray Vision.


Exactly. Reality can't sit in judgment over Fantasy. Story is infinitely malleable. D&D biggest fault is that it picks the Story then it bends the rules around enforce it. This is the primary reason for DDO's balance troubles. If DDO picked meta first, balance would be easy and Story can be cut to fit.

D&D itself is non-sciencical.

This is where I have to disagree.
There IS a science to D&D. There are things magic cannot do just because it's magic. There are rules in place.
A first circle spell cannot reach the same results as Meteor Swarm.
Dispel Magic can strip off temporary enchantments (buff spells) permanently, but can only remove permanent enchantments (magical items) temporarily.
The rules in place can be bent for the purpose of the story. But they have to either be properly explained, or strongly lampshaded.
Don't, and the story stops, suspension of disbelief breaks.
If from one book to the next, Gandalf transformed from a Lord of the Rings High Wizard to a Faerun Archmage in both range and scope of magic, our understanding of how magic works on Middle Earth would shatter.
The story isn't infinitely malleable. There's rules in place. Break them, and the story is ruined.



'Course then it wouldn't be D&D, which is a game entirely built around racial stereotypes and conformity; "it's an orc, kill it!" (why? because orcs are evil .. )

Stereotypes in D&D are a lot less present on Eberron, where alignment is malleable. Good Red Dragons are rare, but not unheard of, despite the Monster Manual saying they're "Always Chaotic Evil".

[Artos_Fabril]

You can tear at the joints of a large construct just as well as you could from a small one.
Probably easier on a smaller construct given their lower Strength scores.Why would a smaller construct have to have a lower strength score? We've got halflings running around with upwards of 80 STR.

Magical systems don't have to be scientific, and rarely are. What they have to be is internally consistent. That said, one of the interesting things about Eberron is that it tried to apply a scientific mindset to a world with magic. In Eberron, magic is treated like any other technology, it has experimenters, the state of the art moves forward, new artificers build on the discoveries of earlier ones.

Compare to FR: there's no internally consistent reason that Faerun should be locked into an eternal European High Fantasy, especially when it is canonically visited by Spelljammers from time to time. In DDO, Cormyr/Eveningstar should be a center of innovation as magic items and processes developed in Eberron make their way through the portal in the hands of minds of adventurers. By now there should be a line of Magefire Cannons atop the walls of Eveningstar to repel the drow.

[Xgya]

Why would a smaller construct have to have a lower strength score? We've got halflings running around with upwards of 80 STR.

Magical systems don't have to be scientific, and rarely are. What they have to be is internally consistent. That said, one of the interesting things about Eberron is that it tried to apply a scientific mindset to a world with magic. In Eberron, magic is treated like any other technology, it has experimenters, the state of the art moves forward, new artificers build on the discoveries of earlier ones.

Compare to FR: there's no internally consistent reason that Faerun should be locked into an eternal European High Fantasy, especially when it is canonically visited by Spelljammers from time to time. In DDO, Cormyr/Eveningstar should be a center of innovation as magic items and processes developed in Eberron make their way through the portal in the hands of minds of adventurers. By now there should be a line of Magefire Cannons atop the walls of Eveningstar to repel the drow.

Whatever got that halfling to 80 will get the giant to 100.
It means building the giant with 80 strength will cost less in the end too, if cost is what you're after.

The usual explanation in Faerun is that magic is considered rare by most of the population, and most of the advances in magitechnology are considered lost to time, and very, VERY taboo.
The only times we can hear about people studying the arcane beyond the current world, and you bring about conquest-driven Netheril and the doom of worlds called Karsus' Folly, alongside all the experiments that led to zones of Wild or even Dead Magic.
Final thing is the rarity of magic in Faerun makes it so people that have it often seclude themselves and a lot are egoists. You can bet there's a mage tower protected by Magefire Cannons somewhere in Faerun, and the Wizard inhabiting the tower guards the secret to creating those very closely.
Even the Good wizards guard their secrets lest they be used by people with more somber intentions.

Faerun had a period with magic far more advanced than Eberron ever had, and it almost ended the plane's very existence.

Also, a lot of Eberron's magical items would be considered evil. Airships most definitely should be. That ring of fire surrounding them that enables flight is an enslaved sentient being that very much hates being there.

Even worse would be Faerunian Wizards coming to Eberron instead. The only reason there wasn't a repeat of Karsus' Folly or any other world-wrecking spell was that Mystra governs all magic on Faerun and forbids them above a certain level. The Weave doesn't exist on Eberron at all, and Mystra's ban on higher level magic wouldn't work there.

[Bjond]

It means building the giant with 80 strength will cost less

Material req'd as a function of size is a cubic relation. Bigger isn't cheaper. It's outrageously more costly; ie. 8 dwarves costs as much as 2 ogres and 8 ogres as much as 2 giants.


You can tear at the joints

It's not about tearing. It's about leverage. It's how I as a 180lb guy can find it easier to throw a 320lb one than a 150lb, despite being able to pick the 150 up (this from RL jujitsu where I regularly worked out with those sizes). Doing it right takes amazingly little strength. 'Course doing it wrong gets you squished by 320lb ... :(

Anyway, I really don't like bringing reality into a fantasy game topic. You have to murder disbelief just to get in the door and start the conversation in the first place. IMHO, what's of far more interest is why we don't have any female-form warforged. It doesn't make sense and would certainly benefit the game.

[Xgya]

Material req'd as a function of size is a cubic relation. Bigger isn't cheaper. It's outrageously more costly; ie. 8 dwarves costs as much as 2 ogres and 8 ogres as much as 2 giants.

It's not about tearing. It's about leverage. It's how I as a 180lb guy can find it easier to throw a 320lb one than a 150lb, despite being able to pick the 150 up (this from RL jujitsu where I regularly worked out with those sizes). Doing it right takes amazingly little strength. 'Course doing it wrong gets you squished by 320lb ... :(


If it was about materials, you'd be right. We're talking magical components here.
That halfling got to 80 Strength via magical equipment, whose price doesn't change based on the user's size, and in fact adapts to fit the wearer, no matter what size they might be.
That piece of equipment the Halfling wears to gain +60 Strength can and will work just fine when worn by a Hill Giant. The Hill Giant will just end up with 18 more Strength in the end on average.
One of the two will win direct strength contests (grapples, throws or bull rushes) 98.5% of the time.

Comparatively speaking, actual physical materials are a fraction of that.
E.g: the body of an Iron Golem usually accounts for 10% of its total price or less (the base one's body costs 10K gold for a total price of 150K). The rest is the cost of the enchantments you have to apply to it.

By any account, the non supernatural way of gaining anything always costs a LOT less than the magical or alchemical one.
This isn't about bringing in reality in a fantasy setting. It's about being consistent with the rules of that fantasy setting.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

with the recent post about warforged cosmetics, i thought i'd point out that all warforged are male. An art update could fix that. Toasters don't have to be exclusively male. Women can make toast, too. Btw, this is from the now-defunct mmo, wildstar and yes, it was a real character option and highly customizable. "mechari" had male & female models.

1479



yes pls! I have been asking for alternate warforged models since the game launched

1000000000000000000000% yes!

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

Warforged are, technically, neither male nor female.

"The warforged are one of the playable fictional races of creatures in the Eberron campaign ... While they have no biological sex, warforged may adopt a gender role as part of their individual personality. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warforged#Description


That's a nice picture, though.

there are different types of warforged in the rules and a warforged may shape their form to better fit their culture, town, society, or personal taste while living in Aundair; Breland; Karrnath; the Mournlands; or Thrane. from the wiki: they are composed of stone, metal and wood; physically powerful; come in multiple sizes and designs; inscriptions on forehead ...

[NemesisAlien]

Magical systems don't have to be scientific, and rarely are. What they have to be is internally consistent. That said, one of the interesting things about Eberron is that it tried to apply a scientific mindset to a world with magic. In Eberron, magic is treated like any other technology, it has experimenters, the state of the art moves forward, new artificers build on the discoveries of earlier ones.


https://img.libquotes.com/pic-quotes/v2/arthur-c-clarke-quote-lbq8x0j.jpg

[Xgya]

https://img.libquotes.com/pic-quotes/v2/arthur-c-clarke-quote-lbq8x0j.jpg

Much as I might like the quote, the reverse is almost never true.

Technology we don't understand might look like magic, but magic we don't understand never looks like technology.
Unless it's an illusion meant to look like technology XD

[NemesisAlien]

Much as I might like the quote, the reverse is almost never true.

Technology we don't understand might look like magic, but magic we don't understand never looks like technology.
Unless it's an illusion meant to look like technology XD

Sufficient advance magic that we cannot comprehend is technology, just a different evolutionary trend technology.

Dont think too much, your brain will do pretzels...

[LightBear]

Interesting discussion on magic vs science.

Never heard of THE Black Arts? Think it was the last class added to this game.

[NemesisAlien]

Interesting discussion on magic vs science.

Never heard of THE Black Arts? Think it was the last class added to this game.

The one where chest stop spawning during a certain event at a certain shrine? :p

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

All warships are referred to as "She". Seriously. All of them. Since the dawn of human civilization.

Or all the one's called 'he' were sunk