an easiest way to improve Caster staff, I think.

[Targal]

Magical Training - Staff Mastery

This feat is additionally acquired with Magical Training feat.
When you wield a quarterstaff having Spellcasting Implement, Your staff grants you the bonuses below:
(Not all of them. I just wrote some ideas of bonuses)
+1 Staff Bonus to Spell Focus
+2 Staff Bonus to Spell Penetration
5% Staff Bonus to SP Cost Reduction
5% Staff Bonus to the Chance of SP Cost Return - Once you cast a spell, Your SP for the spell will be returned in a chance of 5%.
20% Staff Bonus to Spell Cooldown Time Recharge Bonus - Every 0.1s, your spell cooldown time is recharged by 0.02s.

(Giving 20% Cooldown reduction will be cherry-picking for long-cooldown time spells like Banshee. This is why it boosts the speed to cooldown time.)
5% Staff Bonus to Spell Critical
10% Staff Bonus to Spell Critical Damage
1.1x Staff Bonus to your current spellpower (500 healing power will be 550)
In return of these bonuses, You'll suffer some penalties:
10% Penalty to your Spellpoint
20% Slower to your casting speed
Caster Level Penalty by 1
1% chance to fail to cast your spell
1% chance to wild surge (=potion of wonder effect to the target)
Your Metamagic costs more sp by 1.
(Maybe these penalties will not be needed, but I intended a bit that people feel certain cons and pros of staves with this way.)

(I am not saying all these bonuses & penalties should be given. I'm just releasing ideas for staves.)


I think this is the easiest way to make a simple implementation for staff improvement. I mean, feat way.
To be honest, giving all bonuses to the staves won't be too broken, I think? Since double-sceptre or sceptre&orb is too powerful, I guess such bonuses will make the staves competitive enough. (of course, lifting the bonuses will be needed)


Upon this idea, I think it'll be good to see some consistent feature from staves... if I pick some of the suggested features to make the consistent feature:
* Having staff makes your spells strong (Bonus to Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Caster Level, Spell Damage & Critical & Crit Damage)
* but it will make "casting" risky (Penalty to Spellpoint, SP Cost, Casting Failure, Casting Speed)

[Enoach]

I don't think adding a feat would be a good way to lessen the gap between using two items (one in each hand) vs using one item (two handed)

The main reason I feel this way is by making it a feat, builds that are already limited in feat selections will have a deeper sacrifice to gain the advantages of the feat (which deepens the penalties you outlined)

While not a perfect solution SSG has already implemented adding more enhancements possible - still random making perfect combos harder to achieve then the two item method.

Aspects I think will enhance staves for casters is adding in more random lists of castable spells with charges. Casting spells from Staves already has an implemented caster level boost depending on the characters build, so the feature will be useful for non-casters and more beneficial for more dedicated casters. My thought is adding up to three spells with 1, 2 and 3 charge cost with limited charges on the staves and an appropriate recharge on rest of those charges.

[Targal]

The main reason I feel this way is by making it a feat, builds that are already limited in feat selections will have a deeper sacrifice to gain the advantages of the feat (which deepens the penalties you outlined)
I think it is misinterpreted. It's actually giving more bonus to Magical Training feat. To avoid some confusion, I wrote it a bit different, but It appears to be a bad way. Unless you have Caster Classes(which get Magical Training feat), You don't get the staff casting bonuses I wrote as Martial/Ranged classes. Even your staff should have 'Spellcasting Implement' option to take the bonus among all staves including Martial staves - to bring certain caster staves here.



Aspects I think will enhance staves for casters is adding in more random lists of castable spells with charges. Casting spells from Staves already has an implemented caster level boost depending on the characters build, so the feature will be useful for non-casters and more beneficial for more dedicated casters. My thought is adding up to three spells with 1, 2 and 3 charge cost with limited charges on the staves and an appropriate recharge on rest of those charges.

Since the clicky is not affected by your character stats except for your past life feats and wand&scroll mastery enhancement(=75 spellpower, almost none of DC), I strongly feel questionable about the 'implemented charges to the staves' way. maybe SSG can change this only for staff improvement.
Although if SSG does that, I don't think It'll be enough since I feel the most 'clickies' are not really worth unless they're special enough (like Conjure Bolt or Conjure Arrow in Raid weapons). Devs will need to put some proper spells for those charges, if it's added.

and if the charges out, You have no reason to wield the staff anymore until rest. I believe there should be a persisting bonus that makes them wield the staff still.

[Carpone]

Directionally, I like your suggestions. Caster staves need incentives to use over main hand+off hand.

There's no reason to implement new penalties, which would just be another turn off to their adoption. There's already a penalty for using a staff: It's more optimal to use a main hand and off hand. Main+Offhand also provides an easier time when playing the never-ending gear tetris game.

[Khimberlhyte]

Any one of your penalties would be a showstopper for me. I would be forced to consider whether to even use my favourite existing staffs, such as Echo of Wave on druid lives. They are also poorly thought out - would I lose 10% SP every time I switched from sceptre+orb to staff? What is the point of adding a zero sum trade and giving up 10% of my SP for a 5% SP cost reduction and 5% chance for free casting, subject to the whims of the RNG? Why would I want pointlessly complex formulas to mess with casting times? If a staff is an iconic caster item, what rationale would there be for staffs to cause spell failure? Most players I know seem to despise random stuff, so the idea of a random wild surge effect taking the place of an intended spell is terrible.

A few of your proposals will just increase lag and recalculation on every weapon swap, while the rest merely add needless complexity to every casting class in the game. This game is tough enough for new players to get up to speed as it is.

It would be a far better use of developer time to simply buff a few dozen named staffs to compete with sceptre+orb and call it a day.

[salmag]

There should be zero penalties to use a staff.

Easiest way would be to allow caster staffs to be dual wielded with an Orb.

Second easiest way would be to design all new caster staffs to be like the old thaumaturgist staffs while adding Orange AND Red Augment slots.

Third easiest (though time consuming) way would be to buff named quarterstaffs to compete with dual scepters and scepter-orb combos.
This would entail revisiting all named caster staffs.

Don't hold your breathe for them fixing staffs, though. The devs will implement another unnecesssary Universal tree to fix their shortcomings. In this case, it will be named the Bojutsu tree. It will offset Thief-Acrobats AND Casters, while offering a pet Walking Stick Insect.

[Targal]

Any one of your penalties would be a showstopper for me. I would be forced to consider whether to even use my favourite existing staffs, such as Echo of Wave on druid lives. They are also poorly thought out - would I lose 10% SP every time I switched from sceptre+orb to staff? What is the point of adding a zero sum trade and giving up 10% of my SP for a 5% SP cost reduction and 5% chance for free casting, subject to the whims of the RNG? Why would I want pointlessly complex formulas to mess with casting times? If a staff is an iconic caster item, what rationale would there be for staffs to cause spell failure? Most players I know seem to despise random stuff, so the idea of a random wild surge effect taking the place of an intended spell is terrible.

...(Not all of them. I just wrote some ideas of bonuses)...
...(Maybe these penalties will not be needed, but I intended a bit that people feel certain cons and pros of staves with this way.)...
I agree that there is some non-sense combination in the idea(like you get 5% SP reduction but you lose 10% SP pool), but what I said exactly means to release my ideas all out, not they're all perfect to be there. Since you said putting penalties would make you consider to use them, I already knew that would happen. the penalties were written to say giving bonuses only is not the only way given - since we have different aspects between martial weapons considering them.


There's no reason to implement new penalties, which would just be another turn off to their adoption. There's already a penalty for using a staff: It's more optimal to use a main hand and off hand. Main+Offhand also provides an easier time when playing the never-ending gear tetris game.

There should be zero penalties to use a staff.
so, with considering this as well, maybe there will be no need to be penalties. just giving bonuses to the staves seems enough.


A few of your proposals will just increase lag and recalculation on every weapon swap, while the rest merely add needless complexity to every casting class in the game. This game is tough enough for new players to get up to speed as it is.

It would be a far better use of developer time to simply buff a few dozen named staffs to compete with sceptre+orb and call it a day.
I don't know how much it would make a lag, so I won't say that. but in a way to buff all named staves, I don't agree with it. Random-generated staves should have the merit as well.

[boredGamer]

Just make Staffs 3x main stat ... uh ... dc's, and CastThrough for casts to hit multiple mobs. Worked for THF.

[Targal]

Just make Staffs 3x main stat ... uh ... dc's, and CastThrough for casts to hit multiple mobs. Worked for THF.

That reminds me of my old idea - Spell Echo: casts a spell twice in some chance. It is similar to Spell Critical.
For examples...
When you cast Fireball with 10 SP, You shoot a fireball, and if you proc Spell Echo chance, You immediately shoot a fireball again without any cost.
When you cast Dancing Ball of Otto and proc Spell Echo, Two dancing balls will be shown.
When you cast Hold Monster(Mass) on a group of 20 devils with Spell Echo proc(and your Enchant DC is 999), You cast it on them twice. Devils should roll 20 on will save TWICE to resist the spell.
When you cast Heal on your ally with Spell Echo proc, He'll be healed twice, of course.
When you cast Bless on your group with Spell Echo proc, eeeehhh, you cast Bless twice. What a waste.

maybe it'll be worth to be a considerable option for implementation to the staff only exclusive.
the chance value? I am not sure. maybe, 1/3 of the enhancement value? 29-level weapon has +15 enhancement, then a 5% chance. It can be increased by some ways like Enchant Weapon Epic PL feats or the spell.

[SirValentine]

There should be zero penalties to use a staff.

Easiest way would be to allow caster staffs to be dual wielded with an Orb.


/signed. Same way Arti can use (2-handed) crossbow together with Runearm. This would not only make staves relevant again, but also make the distinction between orbs versus offhand scepters or shields more relevant, too.

[Khimberlhyte]

but in a way to buff all named staves, I don't agree with it. Random-generated staves should have the merit as well.

Why? My main is on an alchemist life right now at level 17 and I cannot recall equipping any randomly-generated sceptre or orb within the past 12 levels. Feywild sceptres at 5, Ravenloft Sceptres+belt at 10, Wild Flame + Frost at 14. Same with epic levels on any caster - a borderlands sceptre +named orb will be better than almost any random loot I see, until I replace it with level 29 named gear.

[Lonnbeimnech]

another option

Magical Training - Staff Mastery
You can wield an staff in main hand and an orb in off hand at the same time.

[SpittingCobra]

Magical Training

+1 Staff Bonus to Spell Focus

+2 Staff Bonus to Spell Penetration

5% Staff Bonus to SP Cost Reduction

20% Staff Bonus to Spell Cooldown Time Recharge Bonus

5% Staff Bonus to Spell Critical

10% Staff Bonus to Spell Critical Damage

1.1x Staff Bonus to your current spellpower (500 healing power will be 550)

10% Penalty to your Spellpoint



EDITTED



Don't make it a feat at all. Make it a standard option that spell casters get that comes with magical training.

Also, that might be a bit much of a change, might not. Interesting. I don't like the spells casting slower though. Still interesting. The +1 DC with some of the other perks would make me reconsider my casters that are currently using sticks. I got 2 that actually are using staffs, though probably could get more out of sticks still. I would like to see staffs giving an edge over sticks, not just made competitive. This would help bring back the staff wielding mages we all have in our memories from books and lore.

I went ahead and edited your idea to make it so staffs have that edge they need to bring back that lore.

+1

Good idea!

[droid327]

Overall I think the idea is trying to do too much. You're addressing the inherent penalty of Staff vs Scep+Orb, but then you throw on way too much, then you throw on a bunch of penalties to re-compensate. Just give it enough to make up for what you lose in the offhand.


20% Staff Bonus to Spell Cooldown Time Recharge Bonus - Every 0.1s, your spell cooldown time is recharged by 0.02s.


This specifically made me go yikes...I think you just made the server grow a stomach, just so it could have knots in it thinking about 10 calculations a second...might as well call the feat "Master of Lagmaking" :D

[SpittingCobra]

If it makes lag, than no. If if doesn't make lag and adds that edge to restore lore, than yes.

[Targal]

If it makes lag, than no. If if doesn't make lag and adds that edge to restore lore, than yes.

This specifically made me go yikes...I think you just made the server grow a stomach, just so it could have knots in it thinking about 10 calculations a second...might as well call the feat "Master of Lagmaking" :D
every microsecond, the server scripts run to calculate everything including the cooldown time. If I make pseudocode here:

#Note: Please, this is pseudocode and I know It's not real. It's an easy way to explain people.

timefactor = 10 #it means 0.001 second
yourCharacterCooldowntimeSpeedBonus = 0.2 #Your cooldown time speed for spells is 20%
while(true){
wait(timefactor);
#wait until 0.001 second - which means below-code happens every 0.001 second.

spellCooldowntime = cooldowntime - timefactor;
#There might be a code like this already running in the DDO - which calculates your Cooldown Time. Your spell CD is reduced by 0.001 second every 0.001 second.

spellCooldowntime = cooldowntime - timefactor * yourCharacterCooldowntimeSpeedBonus;
#This is my suggestion to DDO Code. your spell CD is reduced by 0.001s * 20% every 0.001 second.
}Although I can not certainly say, in my opinion (according to my poor experiences in programming), this CD speed boost bonus is not supposed to overload the server a lot, but we know this is DDO - I might be wrong on this. and, of course, the real DDO code might be really complicated.

[Targal]

Why? My main is on an alchemist life right now at level 17 and I cannot recall equipping any randomly-generated sceptre or orb within the past 12 levels. Feywild sceptres at 5, Ravenloft Sceptres+belt at 10, Wild Flame + Frost at 14. Same with epic levels on any caster - a borderlands sceptre +named orb will be better than almost any random loot I see, until I replace it with level 29 named gear.
You said it. You have no reason to use even randomly-generated staves(including the named staves) rather than any sceptre and orb. My suggestion is to give casters a good reason to use all kinds of caster staves, not "certain named staves."
Let's imagine a new-commer wizard. He might have a typical idea that wielding a two-handed staff will be stronger than sceptre+orb. He doesn't have Boderlands, Ravenloft or Feywild to get such exquisite weapons. The only way he gets caster weapon is almost the random-generation. Well, He found a pair of Thaumaturgy sceptres for his both hands. the option was originally exclusive to the randomly-generated staves, but It's not anymore. He'll realise soon how bad the staff is.
Even if he is an old DDO player, not the situation is dramatically changed. to be honest, It's non-sense.



-----EDIT-----
When it comes to the cannith crafting, cc crafted staves are more ridiculous than making two sceptres or orb+sceptre. You literally lose 3 options(+2 aug slots, if given) for a single staff than having two weapons on your both hands.

[Paladin_of_Power]

I do like the idea of built-in benefits for someone with magical training to have with staffs I don’t understand why you would want to penalize them as well and no I don’t believe we should take a feat for this benefit you’re on the right path.

[Targal]

I do like the idea of built-in benefits for someone with magical training to have with staffs I don’t understand why you would want to penalize them as well and no I don’t believe we should take a feat for this benefit you’re on the right path.

The reason for feat way is
* because feat is actually not "feat". It is actually combined with actions and systems. (Ex. Turn off your elemental form effect, hide, auto-attack, dismiss charm)
* to handle all staves in a simple way
* to give this bonus to only casters via Magical Training
(And penalties seems no needed, said again.)


Whatever, a way to implement this is not limited to this one only.

[Sunnie]

a pet Walking Stick Insect
Shut up and take my money!

[ChicagoChris]

There should be zero penalties to use a staff.

Easiest way would be to allow caster staffs to be dual wielded with an Orb.

Second easiest way would be to design all new caster staffs to be like the old thaumaturgist staffs while adding Orange AND Red Augment slots.

Third easiest (though time consuming) way would be to buff named quarterstaffs to compete with dual scepters and scepter-orb combos.
This would entail revisiting all named caster staffs.

Don't hold your breathe for them fixing staffs, though. The devs will implement another unnecesssary Universal tree to fix their shortcomings. In this case, it will be named the Bojutsu tree. It will offset Thief-Acrobats AND Casters, while offering a pet Walking Stick Insect.

I agree that there shouldn't be penalties but that this shouldn't be tied to magical training. There's actually a enhancement tree selection called 'Traditionalist Caster' (+3/6/10 Universal Spell Power while weilding an Orb or Staff.) that could easily be altered to work through all the staff issues.

TC is currently only available in the ArchMage and a couple of Racial trees (Tiefling, T. Scoundrel, Human, PDK), This could be added in other trees where applicable (hard to do since it's a T1 and most T1's are full).

I think a better implementation could be adding TC to each Core in one tree per class (AM in Wiz, Tainted Scholar in WLock, Beacon in FS, Radian in Cleric, SS in Bard - Sorc might have to be explicitly excluded) and then make TC have additional benefits:

1st core - + to Universal per core when wielding Staff (+3)/Orb(+1)
2nd - +1% Crit/Damage per core 2 and above (Staff +2/+2, Orb +1+1)
3rd - +1 DC per Core 3 and above (+1 orb, +2 Staff?)
4th - +1 Spell Pen per core 4 and above (+1 orb, +2 Staff?)
5th - 20% Staff Bonus to Spell Cooldown Time Recharge Bonus (20% staff, 10% orb)


The current T1 TC's could be altered to "improved TC" adding perhaps +1/+2 crits for orb/staff or some other balanced effect.

I like the selections the OP originally offered, and would certainly feel OK about changing the above list (ie Core5 might be reduction in Meta costs, casting speed, etc)

As indicated, these would be Orb and Staff, with Staff getting twice the bonus (or more) as Orb or additional special bonuses.

This would be similar to the melee types where its +1 damage, +2 for Two handed weapons etc.