Alchemist needs to be nerfed

[Randomdude1223]

I am tired of seeing people defend alchemists the class is clearly op compared to anything else
And for this arguments sake I will try to compare it to sorcerer
Alchemist gets evasion sorcerer doesn't
Alchemist get int to saves If you take feats
Alchemist get +4 alchemical bonus to stats through spell no other class gets that
Alchemist gets rewarded through combo
Alchemist gets +30dr from goldskin vs 10 from stoneskin
Alchemist gets heal spells and they they spell power boost as a spell
Alchemist is able to bypass elemental immunity at lvl 12 vs sorc lvl 20
Alchemist gets +4 int capstone vs +2 charisma capstone from sorc
Alchemist gets to use epic defensive fighting feat??!!
They can also apply vulnerability from bombardier tree
They get cc that almost works on everything vs mass holds from sorcerer spells
They get better dc as well and use less spell points than a sorcerer would
I am comparing alchemists at endgame which is usually where I play most this class is too op and needs a huge nerf
Also new tree has a no save color spray that works on almost everything pair that with an alchemist and you got such an unbalanced op class
New broken sla can be used with sorc as well

[NemesisAlien]

No.

If you are the 1% who are over achieving, got perfect stats, got perfect gear, got completionist, please think of the 99% of us who dont have all of the above, also for me personally, I havent even tried alchemist, so please DO NOT try to nerf it, let me play it first. Thank you very much.

[Randomdude1223]

No.

If you are the 1% who are over achieving, got perfect stats, got perfect gear, got completionist, please think of the 99% of us who dont have all of the above, also for me personally, I havent even tried alchemist, so please DO NOT try to nerf it, let me play it first. Thank you very much.

I am not a completionist In any sort of way and i am f2p also i am sorry but your counter argument is that you didnt get to play alchemist yet ? Without addressing a single issue of what I just posted I am not sure what's stopping you from playing alchemist right now it's not like they will nerf it right away and gear wise if you do it right you can your gear in one day two max

[janave]

I do not want Alchemist nerfed.


However the frustration with INT > CHA gear is legit.

F2P/Premium and to lesser extent VIP-noexpacks: INT > CHA by too much. More Charisma gear needs to be available either thru F2P quests or improved RNG/CC or cheap module content or events that are accessible often enough. The difference when combined with the extra INT from Alchemist is shockingly bad. INT has additionally +2 event augment, better filigree support.

SSG should improve design process, because DDO becomes more and more about tiering their players by money spent, but these day that is not enough, need special insider club memberships and the proper class icon to play a supported build.

Too tired and have little faith for change to add up, but we are talking about low 10s of DC differences between the 2 class, but anyone running a CHA DC build is going to get less by a few points at least.

[NemesisAlien]

gear wise if you do it right you can your gear in one day two max

Spoken like a true overachiever. :rolleyes:

[Memnir]

Bring other classes up, don't tear one down.

[janave]

Spoken like a true overachiever. :rolleyes:

Maybe, but it does not make it less true when most of the quests take 5-10minutes of average and you can generally get a group easily to pass the gear to you.


Meanwhile higher Charisma gear is either from a recent expansion pack or raids that are still hard and long without expansion pack gear.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Intelligence_items
https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Charisma_items

Lets not go much further and notice that most CHA gear is more suitable for Bard, Paladin or Warlock before Sorcerer lol...

F2P gets 15+7 from max crafting and +4 if using the gloves from Good Intentions. You can beat that with a single Goggles from a 5minutes quest, and get generic enough bonuses on the side that actually help you as a spellcaster.

[NemesisAlien]

Maybe, but it does not make it less true when most of the quests take 5-10minutes of average and you can generally get a group easily to pass the gear to you.


At this hour? Its amazing if you can find 1 person to hang out with you.

Also there are gear that people have been farming for 10years and havent get it.

Example SoS s/s/s, red helm, jeeves, broken music box, etc...

[mikarddo]

Fix Greater Color Spray from the new tree to actually have a save - clearly a bug and not just for alchemists, everyone is using that right now even pure fighters.
Fix EDF to affect potions as well as spells - clearly an oversight.

Now things are looking much more balanced.

Besides, if you are looking at cap then the fact that alchemists break immunities from level 12 compared to sorcs at 20 do not matter. Its not a really important issue though as sorcs with Chain Lightning + Airdance + Falconry runspeed most definitely compete well with alchemists in much of that range, more so in the lower end of the range. Cone of Cold for the few mobs that are immune to lightning and the difference with breaking immunities is not really important in most places.

At any rate - if we are complaning about balance then druid dps casters really need a buff while both sorcs and alchemists are doing very well.

[kelavas]

Fix Greater Color Spray from the new tree to actually have a save - clearly a bug and not just for alchemists, everyone is using that right now even pure fighters.
Fix EDF to affect potions as well as spells - clearly an oversight.

Now things are looking much more balanced.

Besides, if you are looking at cap then the fact that alchemists break immunities from level 12 compared to sorcs at 20 do not matter. Its not a really important issue though as sorcs with Chain Lightning + Airdance + Falconry runspeed most definitely compete well with alchemists in much of that range, more so in the lower end of the range. Cone of Cold for the few mobs that are immune to lightning and the difference with breaking immunities is not really important in most places.

At any rate - if we are complaning about balance then druid dps casters really need a buff while both sorcs and alchemists are doing very well.
This is a true recognition for the most broken things about Alchemist. THIS, and Tsunami. Tsunami NEEDS TO BE FIXED.

I am speaking from an alchemist perspective; since i've played one, and can skkkkrt through R10s like it's cake. It takes a lot of skill to play an alchemist, it's like monk combination having to reset primer every engaging combat battle.. And you know the thing that gives them power is Legendary Green Steel. Legendary Green Steel is the mean machine behind the program. I've got a 4 piece oppo/material with almost 2,000 hit points outside of reaper on a fourth lifer. I've got an affirmation swap, and ash as a main debuff. You are over-estimating the true capability of alchemists; while they can blast through everything, so can Sorcerer - maybe not at a max standpoint because they can't heal, don't have evasion, but I was rushing through R10s on a Sorcerer by myself aswell, thanks to LGS. Don't go saying Alchemists need a nerf when the true handful of players who are elitist and who know how to gear, plus know how to play the class are the ones leading the alchemist train. Sorcerer is the king of heroics, and will always be because it's not as struggling as Alchemist until 12. Sorcerers can blast through R4-R5 heroics at level 6, and because Alchemist doesn't only get one AoE at level 6, it's quite slow and bad to level up with even on R1. So it's semi-struggling in the beginning, but with the power of Legendary Green Steel and the farmings of shroud, over 33 shrouds just to get 3 immortal hearts was ridiculous, long, and tedious.

P.S Alchemists are the least played class (but that's because it's probably still new, and it's hard to play like monk understanding the functions of performing the class.)

[voxson5]

I am tired of seeing people defend alchemists the class is clearly op compared to anything else
And for this arguments sake I will try to compare it to sorcerer




Alchemist gets evasion sorcerer doesn't


Sorc gets to leverage no MRR cap medium armour via EK




Alchemist get int to saves If you take feats


And so can Sorc




Alchemist get +4 alchemical bonus to stats through spell no other class gets that


Yes this one is pretty pro Alchi :)




Alchemist gets rewarded through combo


It might be called a class feature. What will be complained about next, bards are OP because they have songs? This shouldn't be an issue.



Alchemist gets +30dr from goldskin vs 10 from stoneskin


Yes this one is pretty pro Alchi :) Don't forget they can also stack with their 20/ stoneskin.



Alchemist gets heal spells and they they spell power boost as a spell


So? Sorc gets spell boost as well. Alchi heals take an age to go off - they can't be quickened.



Alchemist is able to bypass elemental immunity at lvl 12 vs sorc lvl 20


And an tiefling with enough racial points can bypass fire at what? Lv 2? Sorc's have a wider toolkit & their big boom spells don't share a cooldown (multivial spells do). Sorc's also bypass immunity at 12 (single target, granted thats quite poo).



Alchemist gets +4 int capstone vs +2 charisma capstone from sorc


The stat bump isn't the disparity in the capstones...



Alchemist gets to use epic defensive fighting feat??!!


So can Sorc.



They can also apply vulnerability from bombardier tree


Yeah and? But I get it, this is nice for other players. Wait - you want to nerf a class that makes other classes do better?



They get cc that almost works on everything vs mass holds from sorcerer spells


This is true. I do wish Arcane's had some other spells like flesh to stone, or web, or .....



They get better dc as well and use less spell points than a sorcerer would


With the pyrite spike? yea OC. Class feature lasting 12 seconds & all that.



Agreed that Alchi is probably a bit strong.

Other classes should be brought up though, rather than nerfing it down.

[SirValentine]

Bring other classes up, don't tear one down.

That's how we first got into to the situation where we needed to invent Reaper, then got into the situation where people speed-run R10 as fast as they would Casual.

I don't have the same feelings as some people who focus on player-compared-to-player balance, but I feel strongly that player-versus-content balance is vastly out of whack.

Nerf everything. Starting with the things that are most OP and thus most destroying any semblance of player-versus-content balance.

[SirValentine]

also for me personally, I havent even tried alchemist, so please DO NOT try to nerf it, let me play it first. Thank you very much.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to anything. OP asked it to be reduced in power, implying to levels similar to Sorc, not removed from game so you can never try it.

[redoubt]

No.

This person gets it (snips to follow):



I am speaking from an alchemist perspective; since i've played one,

It takes a lot of skill to play an alchemist,

it's like monk combination having to reset primer every engaging combat battle

thing that gives them power is Legendary Green Steel. Legendary Green Steel is the mean machine behind the program. I've got a 4 piece oppo/material with almost 2,000 hit points outside of reaper on a fourth lifer. I've got an affirmation swap, and ash as a main debuff.



Note here... LGS 4 piece sets and weapons. This is not beginner stuff. People who have that level of gear look OP on any build.

Next, Voxon, thanks for addressing the OP point by point. I'll add to two of them.



Yes this one is pretty pro Alchi :) Don't forget they can also stack with their 20/ stoneskin.

I might be wrong, but I don't think they stack. They work in sequence. Once goldskin wears off, if you still have time on stoneskin, then it applies. But its 30DR then later you get 20DR. You don't get 50DR.




And an tiefling with enough racial points can bypass fire at what? Lv 2? Sorc's have a wider toolkit & their big boom spells don't share a cooldown (multivial spells do). Sorc's also bypass immunity at 12 (single target, granted thats quite poo).


And the issue here is that Tiefling is one of very few actually useful racial trees. That the rest of the racial trees are horrible is not the fault of alchemist. Make the other racial trees worth investing in.

[TheMaxpower]

At end game, which is all that really matters imo, Alchemist is stupid OP and needs a major nerf. Those who disagree likely have not built or played with a competent alchemist yet. This is not good for game balance. Unfortunately, this is entirely consistent with their business model over the years ... Introduce something new that is WAY OP, sell as much of it as they can and make as much money as possible, then nerf the heck out of it to restore some sense of game balance. Shameful and sad. Several years ago I fell for their "bait and switch" nonsense. I got the new class, spent a lot of time and money building it up, was really happy with it, then they nerfed it into being obsolete. From that moment on, I stopped chasing their "flavor of the month."

[Seph1roth5]

Why are you all bothering to reply to a thread made by someone who clearly just made a forum account to ***** and moan.

[grubenbrobrobroketv]

I am not a completionist In any sort of way and i am f2p also i am sorry but your counter argument is that you didnt get to play alchemist yet ? Without addressing a single issue of what I just posted I am not sure what's stopping you from playing alchemist right now it's not like they will nerf it right away and gear wise if you do it right you can your gear in one day two max

this is absolutely hilarious to read tbh i dont think you fully understand how much time goes into planning gear to do the damage that you cant get clearly or you wouldnt be compalining about alch on the forums and instead would be playing a competent toon that you spent more than a few days gearing. my sentient weapon has 150k exp in it you think i got that in a day two max?!?! its just laughable alch is a fantastic class and its OP in pen and paper too. I have spell power bonuses on the majority of my gear requires tens of runs on reaper diffuculty to get said bonuses dozens of raids for the runes to buy my items taking many weeks to earn.

Sorc gets elemental oppothesis that is the sorc ability alch is a specialist and they should be able to get evasion
int for saves is a waste of a feat and i never take this feat as an alch
+4 alchemical bonus idk buff other casters and give them the same buff its not that hard
"alchemists get rewarded through combos" ???
were complaining about DR now? sorry bud thats not going to help when i pick your stone after you get hit for 5k
the spell power boost also locks you out of using other action boosts for 30seconds where normal action boosts have 20 sec cooldown
why not just buff sorc tree lol
epic defensive fighting is bugged
sorc can apply vulnerability
DC is king for CC and im sure youve only see alchs with good dcs so the "works on everything" is because theyre just good players
you have clearly never played with an alchemist before level 12 they are absolutely dreadful to level in heroics
Faydark tree complaints dont belong here make a thread about that if you want to complain about the cheese spray do that

Alchemist is the least played class in the game glad you were lucky enough to run into one

[Soulfurnace]

So, something people wanting alch nerfs fail to consider; other sorc (ignoring fire, which is comparable to alch) are a mile behind. Every other nuker is so far behind you can't even see their soulstones.


If you take a giant dump on alch/sorc, nuking is dead. We can return to the THF and nothing else meta.
Alch/fire sorc could do with being toned down, but the real answer is to make the other nukers not trash.


There's a few issues that SSG needs to address. The first - Spell flavours. They all taste the same. As others have said previously, fire should win AOE nuking, ice single target, electric a mixture of both and acid should be the king of DOTs.
The issue? DOT's don't matter, all that matters is the big KABOOM and that's fire why dumpsters other flavours - they're lesser fire.


Ice DID have a niche, but SSG dumpstered reflection of wave so hard ice vanished entirely. Fire can also use med armour which stacks with clouded dreams for med armour AND the highest crit chance... or 4 pc lgs, which is the fun option.


But the fact that all that matters is the big kaboom is the second issue of casters - damage versus DPS.
Casters have pretty weak DPS. They lack the sustain of melee, which doesn't matter due to their ability to drop a small atomic bomb in the middle of a pack of mobs and kill them all. Sure, they're limited in how often they can drop that bomb, but does it really matter when it one hits until like r6 or so? (the answer is no, it doesn't). Mobs happen to have more or less the same hp for ages now. Maybe it goes up by 1k, but 1k isn't even an extra hit to endgame THF, and it's certainly not relevant to high burst damage like nukers. Instead, SSG just keeps increasing pack size, with more or less the same hp, which fits snugly with what they can nuke.


If you were to half their nuking potential, they'd be so far in the bin you'd have to scrape them off the bottom of it. Their dps is bad, if you halve their nukes they'll have no niche at all. Of course, halving is drastic - but if they can't nuke a blob, they're pretty pointless, because they certainly can't sustain dps to kill things slowly.


SSG wound up in a game where burst damage can be enough, and when they gave mobs more hp people complained. Less mobs, more hp - same amount of overall hp, but nukers can't simply demolish it without a second thought.


Then of course you have spell calculations. Caster levels * base spell damage * spellpower * crit damage * helpless damage. Sense weakness and falconry happen to give you lots of that helpless damage.
That's a LOT of multipliers to balance - and that's ignoring debuffing mobs.




Tl;dr- alchs/sorcs are only OP because SSG left mob hp so low. Other nukers are so dog trash that killing alch/sorc would just remove any viability for damage spellcasting at endgame. All the elements are more or less the same when appraising them - ignore everything that's not big aoe damage, lightning bolt/iceberg exempted. Fire unfairly favoured by SSG. Honestly need full casting rebalance and not some half-baked "hurr durr nerf sorc/alch" pass. Tho sorc/alch could lose some damage.
Oh, and crit chance is so high that not critting is rarer than critting. Imagine if THF had a 80% crit chance at the expense of losing 1 crit mult.

[Jerevth]

Why are you all bothering to reply to a thread made by someone who clearly just made a forum account to ***** and moan.


It's just trolling to cause a spectacle and/or a lack of integrity.
There are plenty of ways to raise an intelligent discussion about whether a class might need a bit more balancing than stating that it needs to be nerfed, in a game where first, second and last place don't change the treasure rolls.
Unless their sense of self value hinges on how many more mobs they kill than another player?
One might conjecture they've fast completed their PLs using alchemist and want to burn the bridge.

[Loholt-UK]

Why are you all bothering to reply to a thread made by someone who clearly just made a forum account to ***** and moan.

Although I don't agree with the OP in his quest to nerf anything he is clearly a player who has an opinion and deserves to be heard out, or we can just live in the bubble of forumites we presently have for ever and ever with the same old ideas and gripes being passed around again and again ad infinitum.

[fatherpirate]

Epic level characters need to be nerfed.
They make us heroic level characters look bad, they are WAY OP compared to heroic characters.

yup, you all sound like that

[kelavas]

At end game, which is all that really matters imo, Alchemist is stupid OP and needs a major nerf. Those who disagree likely have not built or played with a competent alchemist yet. This is not good for game balance. Unfortunately, this is entirely consistent with their business model over the years ... Introduce something new that is WAY OP, sell as much of it as they can and make as much money as possible, then nerf the heck out of it to restore some sense of game balance. Shameful and sad. Several years ago I fell for their "bait and switch" nonsense. I got the new class, spent a lot of time and money building it up, was really happy with it, then they nerfed it into being obsolete. From that moment on, I stopped chasing their "flavor of the month."
I know you made a previous post, and I could not be asked to respond. I have to respond here because you unfortunately only read what you want to, you seem to ignore all the "alchemists are balanced" comments. Alchemist is not over *insert cuss word here* powered, it is a bit more power over Sorcerer because of evasion + heals, but you fail to recognize that the power of green steel, and what it holds. Alchemists can wield an ash stick in the off hand, and use 4 piece lgs oppo/material, that gives them 53 crit multiplier, and -21mrr debuff to deal loads of damage when critically landing spells (on top of Draconic giving 60 for about ~123 multiplier) But you realize this all comes from shroud, right? That's what makes Alchemists strong, but you fail to realize how much sheer power melee classes have been given. I could slap a barbarian together, run some shrouds, get an affirmation/dust swap, and go completely bonkerz on R10 quests by myself. They are ridiculous, 3x is too strong. Maybe you should evaluate your position after considering that some, if not, most power comes from Shroud. A lot of the ingredients/mats/abilities will become obsolete after time, but you need to take your time and wait for the level cap to progress, and then LGS is only good for leveling 26-30 with swaps and stuff. (assuming what we know about the level cap increase)

I swear if you run with Tronko on a Paladin, or anyone else that knows what they are doing on a paladin, it is equal to, if not a tiche stronger than Alchemist. Only difference is the melee is prone to hits, compared to the alchemist caster. Fury of the Wild with Adrenaline / Prowess + Haste Boost / Meld will complete an R10 boss in under 10 seconds, where as casters take a lot longer to cast spells, and complete a rotation before the monsters are killed.

I had to run 33 shrouds before my fourth life Alchemist was recognized. I don't brag or boast about my Alchemist, I had to work for it.. play smarter, not harder.
FYI: 33 shrouds equivalates to about 16.5 hours spent in Shroud. That is a lot of time.
I had to run 56 shroud before my tank was recognized, that's 28 hours spent in shroud. That's also a lot of time. My power comes from Shroud, but you don't see me requesting a nerf of that specific class, do you?
*Sounds like i'm going to have to request a nerf in my cleric because it's too good at heals, and should be nerfed but oppo/material giving the critical multiplier *and hit points* shouldn't be nerfed, so people fail to recognize how helpful Shroud LGS is.*



Those who disagree likely have not built or played with a competent alchemist yet.
I'm disagreeing with a nerf because i've built one, and played one at semi-max dps. (cold specc'd vs. fire specc'd) and it compares to a lot of other classes, not specifically caster category. Don't worry, i'm prepared for your "you disagree because you don't want your power nerfed!" comment.

[LurkingVeteran]

I know you made a previous post, and I could not be asked to respond. I have to respond here because you unfortunately only read what you want to, you seem to ignore all the "alchemists are balanced" comments. Alchemist is not over *insert cuss word here* powered, it is a bit more power over Sorcerer because of evasion + heals, but you fail to recognize that the power of green steel, and what it holds. Alchemists can wield an ash stick in the off hand, and use 4 piece lgs oppo/material, that gives them 53 crit multiplier, and -21mrr debuff to deal loads of damage when critically landing spells (on top of Draconic giving 60 for about ~123 multiplier) But you realize this all comes from shroud, right? That's what makes Alchemists strong, but you fail to realize how much sheer power melee classes have been given. I could slap a barbarian together, run some shrouds, get an affirmation/dust swap, and go completely bonkerz on R10 quests by myself. They are ridiculous, 3x is too strong. Maybe you should evaluate your position after considering that some, if not, most power comes from Shroud. A lot of the ingredients/mats/abilities will become obsolete after time, but you need to take your time and wait for the level cap to progress, and then LGS is only good for leveling 26-30 with swaps and stuff. (assuming what we know about the level cap increase)

I swear if you run with Tronko on a Paladin, or anyone else that knows what they are doing on a paladin, it is equal to, if not a tiche stronger than Alchemist. Only difference is the melee is prone to hits, compared to the alchemist caster. Fury of the Wild with Adrenaline / Prowess + Haste Boost / Meld will complete an R10 boss in under 10 seconds, where as casters take a lot longer to cast spells, and complete a rotation before the monsters are killed.

I had to run 33 shrouds before my fourth life Alchemist was recognized. I don't brag or boast about my Alchemist, I had to work for it.. play smarter, not harder.
FYI: 33 shrouds equivalates to about 16.5 hours spent in Shroud. That is a lot of time.
I had to run 56 shroud before my tank was recognized, that's 28 hours spent in shroud. That's also a lot of time. My power comes from Shroud, but you don't see me requesting a nerf of that specific class, do you?
*Sounds like i'm going to have to request a nerf in my cleric because it's too good at heals, and should be nerfed but oppo/material giving the critical multiplier *and hit points* shouldn't be nerfed, so people fail to recognize how helpful Shroud LGS is.*



I'm disagreeing with a nerf because i've built one, and played one at semi-max dps. (cold specc'd vs. fire specc'd) and it compares to a lot of other classes, not specifically caster category. Don't worry, i'm prepared for your "you disagree because you don't want your power nerfed!" comment.
This argument applies to sorc too, but sorcs got nerfed and Alch's are currently better than Sorc was before their nerf, so nuker balance clearly doesn't make sense atm.

Multi-vial scaling is definitely an outlier compared to all other spells, including meteor, which is also an outlier.

[Randomdude1223]

Spoken like a true overachiever. :rolleyes:

Like I said I am not even close to those people you have mentioned it takes 1 or 2 days max to farm necessary gear unless you're really lucky if you're on Khyber I will gladly help you farm your gear even if it takes hours

[Randomdude1223]

Fix Greater Color Spray from the new tree to actually have a save - clearly a bug and not just for alchemists, everyone is using that right now even pure fighters.
Fix EDF to affect potions as well as spells - clearly an oversight.

Now things are looking much more balanced.

Besides, if you are looking at cap then the fact that alchemists break immunities from level 12 compared to sorcs at 20 do not matter. Its not a really important issue though as sorcs with Chain Lightning + Airdance + Falconry runspeed most definitely compete well with alchemists in much of that range, more so in the lower end of the range. Cone of Cold for the few mobs that are immune to lightning and the difference with breaking immunities is not really important in most places.

At any rate - if we are complaning about balance then druid dps casters really need a buff while both sorcs and alchemists are doing very well.
I did mention that the new broken sla works well with sorcerer as well and you're right it is a bit contradictory on my by behalf that I mentioned immunity bypass at lvl 12 vs 20 then say I only focus on end game however doesn't change the fact that alchemists get it earlier than sorc or druid or any other nuke ish type caster build
I am also not sure how you're comparing an AIR SORCERER to alchemist they are behind on terms of everything

[kelavas]

This argument applies to sorc too, but sorcs got nerfed and Alch's are currently better than Sorc was before their nerf, so nuker balance clearly doesn't make sense atm.

Multi-vial scaling is definitely an outlier compared to all other spells, including meteor, which is also an outlier.
Sure the argument can be applied to Sorcerers, too. But I can play a sorcerer in R10 with 30 reaper points, as well as an alchemist in Reaper 10. Meteor Swarm and Delayed Blast Fireball are super strong spells. Just slap a 4 piece lgs aswell, and you've got yourself a very good set up. Plus there's more versatility and instakills with sorcerer, with renew and rejuv you can heal, just not as well. Only thing comparing is evasion, but high MRR basically evens it out.

Also, sorcerer got a nerf to max caster level because in heroics they are ridiculous. If they placed the caster levels back at the Fire Elemental Form, it'd be a bit better, but they are still really good nukers. I solo'd R5-R6 on my sorcerer in heroics, and did R7/8 (this was back before the nerf + before the new reapers) solo at cap with sorcerer, don't count sorcerer power out of this equation, but you seem to try your hardest. The caster level nerf doesn't stop them from being good, they are still super good at nuking, instakills and cc compared to the alchemist that is straight nuking with slight debuffs.

[Randomdude1223]

Sorc gets to leverage no MRR cap medium armour via EK




And so can Sorc




Yes this one is pretty pro Alchi :)




It might be called a class feature. What will be complained about next, bards are OP because they have songs? This shouldn't be an issue.



Yes this one is pretty pro Alchi :) Don't forget they can also stack with their 20/ stoneskin.



So? Sorc gets spell boost as well. Alchi heals take an age to go off - they can't be quickened.



And an tiefling with enough racial points can bypass fire at what? Lv 2? Sorc's have a wider toolkit & their big boom spells don't share a cooldown (multivial spells do). Sorc's also bypass immunity at 12 (single target, granted thats quite poo).



The stat bump isn't the disparity in the capstones...



So can Sorc.



Yeah and? But I get it, this is nice for other players. Wait - you want to nerf a class that makes other classes do better?



This is true. I do wish Arcane's had some other spells like flesh to stone, or web, or .....



With the pyrite spike? yea OC. Class feature lasting 12 seconds & all that.



Agreed that Alchi is probably a bit strong.

Other classes should be brought up though, rather than nerfing it down.

First of all my apologies for the layout of my respond as I am new to forums so let's start
Sorcerer gets the leverage to use medium armor while alchemists don't however if you're not fire sorcerer and don't use the flamecleansed set then you would have use orders garb and not benefit from the medium armor and the no mrr cap however as I mentioned I am f2p and I dont have feywild yet so I dont know if feywild gear can actually fix this if not then alchemists get the benefits of having evasion while other nuke casters don't

And yes the alchemist combo is a class feature but it's a feature that no other nuke class gets therefore it's not on par with sorc , druid etc making alchemists stronger

Yes sorcerer gets spell boosts as well but you have to invest enhancements points in the EK tree while alchemists simply get it as a spell

Yes a tiefling can bypass fire immunity early on in the game but not everyone is a racial completionist
That can invest many racial enhancements points in the tiefling tree even then that limits you to one race and you have to be a fire sorcerer to be comparable to alchemist

Yes the capstone is not the biggest issue that alch vs sorc has but on top of all the bonuses that alchemists get they can enjoy an extra +2 to their main stat while sorcerer doesn't

As for the epic fighting stances an alchemist get to benefit from the extra hp with no penalties vs any other caster sorcerer can't use epic fighting feat because it limits how they cast spells I am not sure how you dont see that as an issue

Yes it benefits other players and what not but it's the only nuke class that can apply vulnerability while sorcerer and druids don't get such abilities from any of there tree making alchemist yet again a bit stronger

Yes the cooldown is longer than sorcerer and I can agree that sorcerer gets the upper hand here but does it really matter since alchemists even with the longer cooldowns gets to do more damage while using less spell points?

And I don't personally care if they make other nukes stronger or nerf alchemists they have to do one of the two
Apologies for my bad english as it is not my first language have a nice day:)

[LurkingVeteran]

Sure the argument can be applied to Sorcerers, too. But I can play a sorcerer in R10 with 30 reaper points, as well as an alchemist in Reaper 10. Meteor Swarm and Delayed Blast Fireball are super strong spells. Just slap a 4 piece lgs aswell, and you've got yourself a very good set up. Plus there's more versatility and instakills with sorcerer, with renew and rejuv you can heal, just not as well. Only thing comparing is evasion, but high MRR basically evens it out.

Also, sorcerer got a nerf to max caster level because in heroics they are ridiculous. If they placed the caster levels back at the Fire Elemental Form, it'd be a bit better, but they are still really good nukers. I solo'd R5-R6 on my sorcerer in heroics, and did R7/8 (this was back before the nerf + before the new reapers) solo at cap with sorcerer, don't count sorcerer power out of this equation, but you seem to try your hardest. The caster level nerf doesn't stop them from being good, they are still super good at nuking, instakills and cc compared to the alchemist that is straight nuking with slight debuffs.

Nobody said Sorc wasn't good. Fire Sorc is also an outlier, as I said. Alch is just better. Better damage. Better utility (heals, run speed, saves, epic defensive fighting w/o penalties...). Everything else is a wash vs. a good fire sorc. It basically gets most of the advantages of all other classes with little penalty.

That said, e.g. Druid needs a bigger buff than Alch deserves a nerf, but internally among nukers it's clearly an outlier.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Nobody said Sorc wasn't good. Fire Sorc is also an outlier, as I said. Alch is just better. Better damage. Better utility (heals, run speed, saves, epic defensive fighting w/o penalties...). Everything else is a wash vs. a good fire sorc. It basically gets most of the advantages of all other classes with little penalty.

That said, e.g. Druid needs a bigger buff than Alch deserves a nerf, but internally among nukers it's clearly an outlier.

A great alchemist is better than a great sorcerer.

Mediocre alchemists are pretty terrible. No need for a nerf because that will kill the class for the casual players who aren't that top tier super-nuker.

[HungarianRhapsody]

First of all my apologies for the layout of my respond as I am new to forums so let's start
Sorcerer gets the leverage to use medium armor while alchemists don't however if you're not fire sorcerer and don't use the flamecleansed set then you would have use orders garb and not benefit from the medium armor and the no mrr cap however as I mentioned I am f2p and I dont have feywild yet so I dont know if feywild gear can actually fix this if not then alchemists get the benefits of having evasion while other nuke casters don't

If you're a sorcerer and you're not a fire sorcerer, you're doing it wrong. SSG has made it very clear that they're only interested in supporting fire as an element for sorcerers.

[kelavas]

First of all my apologies for the layout of my respond as I am new to forums so let's start..
Okay, i'm here to argue every point for you, enjoy the arguments.


Sorcerer gets the leverage to use medium armor while alchemists don't however if you're not fire sorcerer and don't use the flamecleansed set then you would have use orders garb and not benefit from the medium armor and the no mrr cap however as I mentioned I am f2p and I dont have feywild yet so I dont know if feywild gear can actually fix this if not then alchemists get the benefits of having evasion while other nuke casters don't
Okay, this is a good point. I like this, but with the augments being added into the game, that leverage for only using flamecleansed is invalid. You can use any armor you'd like, and slot a set bonus into it, such as +3 to all spell dcs, or the +4 artifact to your main stat. There's no reason to force yourself into fire savant, or flamecleansed set, even though Meteor Swarm is the only good AoE spell that brings damage to sorcerer.


And yes the alchemist combo is a class feature but it's a feature that no other nuke class gets therefore it's not on par with sorc , druid etc making alchemists stronger
This is false. 100% false. Being primed into an element, such as orange to increase your spell power does not make a class stronger, at all. It is an interesting feature, and you have to think of it like monk and the combination monks have to perform, to get an ability out of it. This is nothing


Yes sorcerer gets spell boosts as well but you have to invest enhancements points in the EK tree while alchemists simply get it as a spell
I'm going to be real honest with you, from the top 1% of alchemists that actually can perform an alchemist the correct way, we don't use that spell boost clickie. We use speed boost to zerg, and run faster away from doom reapers, and things that can cause mayhem. Spell boost is actually a very weak spell to take on Alchemist, and a waste of a spot.


Yes a tiefling can bypass fire immunity early on in the game but not everyone is a racial completionist
That can invest many racial enhancements points in the tiefling tree even then that limits you to one race and you have to be a fire sorcerer to be comparable to alchemist.
This is also false. Sorcerer with 'Ash' debuff applies a 5% fire vulnerable debuff, and the tier 5 debuff applies a 15% debuff. That's a 20% debuff that sorcerer has over alchemist. To be a good dps nuker alchemist, your race of choice is always Dragonborn. You get so much more caster levels, wings to run away from a doom, and more dc's to your spells to land them.


Yes the capstone is not the biggest issue that alch vs sorc has but on top of all the bonuses that alchemists get they can enjoy an extra +2 to their main stat while sorcerer doesn't.
What? Oh no, +1 dc, oh noooooooes. You realize a racial completionist sorcerer beats an alchemist in DC. My main sorcerer can hit 133 sunburst dc where as my Alchemist can hit a 129 multivial if I tried. I am racial completionist, yes. There's no real peak advantage for +2 to a stat.


As for the epic fighting stances an alchemist get to benefit from the extra hp with no penalties vs an other caster sorcerer can't use epic fighting feat because it limits how they cast spells I am not sure how you dont see that as an issue
This one I 100% agree on. I do not run EDF because it is broken, and should not work with Alchemist spells, but there was some rumors that this was actively being in the works to fixed. Not sure if this is true or not, but definitely is on the table. Steelstar said that they know it exists, and have a plan to fix it.


Yes it benefits other players and what not but it's the only nuke class that can apply vulnerability while sorcerer and druids don't get such abilities from any of there tree making alchemist yet again a bit stronger
Once again, this is a semi-decent point. But most groups have this already, this is definitely not something new, it's available everywhere and very popular. As for solo, you definitely make a good point here, but Ash + Elemental Weakness 15% is 20% so that evens out a playing field, plus if an Ash Sorcerer is in your party, the alchemist and sorcerer both benefit off each other, this is something to make note of 100% :)


Yes the cooldown is longer than sorcerer and I can agree that sorcerer gets the upper hand here but does it really matter since alchemists even with the longer cooldowns gets to do more damage while using less spell points?
monkey explanation: monkey swing axe fast to get banana versus monkey swing axe with all his might to get banana
*bad analogy but faster casting allows more damage output versus big damage but slower casting


And I don't personally care if they make other nukes stronger or nerf alchemists they have to do one of the two
In other words, you want them to add more AoE spells for Sorcerers, got it.


Apologies for my bad english as it is not my first language have a nice day:)
Understood it all.

Signed, an alchemist player.

[LurkingVeteran]

Simple incremental balance fix:
-Reduce Multi-vial damage per vial from d6+2 to d6+1.
-Fix so EDF reduces range of Alch nukes

Maybe increase Frog cooldown? Not sure what it is.

Then buff the other casters, including non-fire sorc.

[Aelonwy]

Coming from someone that doesn't own nor want alchemist... be careful what you ask for... this company doesn't know how to balance carefully. When the nerf hammer is requested it always arrives like a cow from orbit, hulk-smashing not just the requested class or tree but too often also nerfing other tangent classes & play-styles.

And the cycle continues.

[janave]

Coming from someone that doesn't own nor want alchemist... be careful what you ask for... this company doesn't know how to balance carefully. When the nerf hammer is requested it always arrives like a cow from orbit, hulk-smashing not just the requested class or tree but too often also nerfing other tangent classes & play-styles.

And the cycle continues.

Another +100 point post :), the forum does not let me rep++ you any more.

[Redtalktree]

Bait and switch
Inquisitors was a prime example, everyone bought it, after they milked it, they neffed it into oblivion, Epic Inq is pretty poor, especially when they neffed the sinergy with artificers (who sucx bigtime at any level compred to INQS), this is not including the broken IPS neff bat.

So yeah It was expected and due.

[Randomdude1223]

It's just trolling to cause a spectacle and/or a lack of integrity.
There are plenty of ways to raise an intelligent discussion about whether a class might need a bit more balancing than stating that it needs to be nerfed, in a game where first, second and last place don't change the treasure rolls.
Unless their sense of self value hinges on how many more mobs they kill than another player?
One might conjecture they've fast completed their PLs using alchemist and want to burn the bridge.
I dont think you even read my post I addressed why alchemist needs to get nerfed and several others here had some really good responses to my arguments you didnt add anything of value you didn't respond to a single issue I raised and yet you're here saying "there are plenty of ways to raise an intelligent discussion about whether a class might need a bit more balancing" isn't that what I am doing ? Raising a discussion about why a class needs balancing ? Do you see the irony in this ? Lol if anyones trolling it's you

[Randomdude1223]

this is absolutely hilarious to read tbh i dont think you fully understand how much time goes into planning gear to do the damage that you cant get clearly or you wouldnt be compalining about alch on the forums and instead would be playing a competent toon that you spent more than a few days gearing. my sentient weapon has 150k exp in it you think i got that in a day two max?!?! its just laughable alch is a fantastic class and its OP in pen and paper too. I have spell power bonuses on the majority of my gear requires tens of runs on reaper diffuculty to get said bonuses dozens of raids for the runes to buy my items taking many weeks to earn.

Sorc gets elemental oppothesis that is the sorc ability alch is a specialist and they should be able to get evasion
int for saves is a waste of a feat and i never take this feat as an alch
+4 alchemical bonus idk buff other casters and give them the same buff its not that hard
"alchemists get rewarded through combos" ???
were complaining about DR now? sorry bud thats not going to help when i pick your stone after you get hit for 5k
the spell power boost also locks you out of using other action boosts for 30seconds where normal action boosts have 20 sec cooldown
why not just buff sorc tree lol
epic defensive fighting is bugged
sorc can apply vulnerability
DC is king for CC and im sure youve only see alchs with good dcs so the "works on everything" is because theyre just good players
you have clearly never played with an alchemist before level 12 they are absolutely dreadful to level in heroics
Faydark tree complaints dont belong here make a thread about that if you want to complain about the cheese spray do that

Alchemist is the least played class in the game glad you were lucky enough to run into one

I don't get what you mean with the whole 150k sentient xp argument both alchemist and sorcerer can benefit from having many filigree slots ?

Alchemist get +4 alchemical bonus to their chosen stat if you use +4 int alchemical bonus through evolution and get +4 int from capstone vs what sorc gets (+2 at capstone) that's an extra+3 dc

Yes alchemists get better DR and not everyone run r10s or high difficulty content to gets hit by +5k worth of damage in one hit

"Why not buff sorc tree" so you admit that alchemist excels in that regards ? Also I don't care if they nerf alchemist or buff other nukers just do one of the two

Sorc can apply vulnerability yes but that's through equipment not enhancement tree like alchemist however others on this thread argued that sorc gets debuffs too through elemental +15% (extra +5% if you use improved scorch from tiefling tree) and I completely agree with that and I retract my point of argument regarding the vulnerability issue

Sorry I wasn't clear on what I meant by that what I meant by "works on everything" is that flesh to gold or that freeze spell from alchemist spells(can't recall what it's called) works on constructs some undead etc.. vs mass holds from sorcerer which doesnt work on everything

Yes I agree that before lvl 12 they underperform vs sorc (not by much tho) but once you get to lvl 12 you get to bypass immunities and a powerful sla vs what any sorc would get at lvl 12
Anyhow I shouldn't have raised that argument because it contradicts with what I said about how alchemist is over performing at end game.

Yes I agree with that Feydark illusionist tree benefits both sorc alch and about any class pretty much and I shouldn't have brought it up here.

[Randomdude1223]

Coming from someone that doesn't own nor want alchemist... be careful what you ask for... this company doesn't know how to balance carefully. When the nerf hammer is requested it always arrives like a cow from orbit, hulk-smashing not just the requested class or tree but too often also nerfing other tangent classes & play-styles.

And the cycle continues.
Whether you want alchemist or not should have nothing to do with why it should get nerfed or not I am trying to be least biased and so should you
Also them not knowing how to balance things carefully is something I fully agree on henceforth I made this thread about how alchemist needs to get nerfed but them not knowing what they're doing doesn't mean something shouldn't be done about it

[Aelonwy]

Whether you want alchemist or not should have nothing to do with why it should get nerfed or not I am trying to be least biased and so should you

I wasn't being biased. I did not throw my opinion on the nerfing or not-nerfing of alchemist to either side. I said be careful what you wish for. People have in the past and will continue to suggest delicate nerfs that better match balance and the devs have so far always gone with the sledge hammer approach mashing a square peg down a round hole sometimes whacking the other nearby pegs in the process. My opening sentence that I do not own nor want alchemist, meant only that I do not have a dog in this fight. Whether they nerf alchemist or not, makes no difference to me... but their method of nerfing is like whack-a-mole at a kids party restaurant and I would hate to have one of my characters whacked by the nerf splash damage.

[Justicesfury]

I am tired of seeing people defend alchemists the class is clearly op compared to anything else
And for this arguments sake I will try to compare it to sorcerer
Alchemist gets evasion sorcerer doesn't
Alchemist get int to saves If you take feats
Alchemist get +4 alchemical bonus to stats through spell no other class gets that
Alchemist gets rewarded through combo
Alchemist gets +30dr from goldskin vs 10 from stoneskin
Alchemist gets heal spells and they they spell power boost as a spell
Alchemist is able to bypass elemental immunity at lvl 12 vs sorc lvl 20
Alchemist gets +4 int capstone vs +2 charisma capstone from sorc
Alchemist gets to use epic defensive fighting feat??!!
They can also apply vulnerability from bombardier tree
They get cc that almost works on everything vs mass holds from sorcerer spells
They get better dc as well and use less spell points than a sorcerer would
I am comparing alchemists at endgame which is usually where I play most this class is too op and needs a huge nerf
Also new tree has a no save color spray that works on almost everything pair that with an alchemist and you got such an unbalanced op class
New broken sla can be used with sorc as well

Leave the Alchemist alone. Most are very squishy and hard to play. Its nice that they have good DPS and there is nothing wrong with that. Some play tanks, some play DPS and some play healers. DDO has a variety of classes with advantages an disadvantages. Come here to ruin peoples fun and cry for a nerf if you are jealous of peoples kill counts is petty. No reason to come here and ruin other peoples fun.

[Theolin]

Nerf Monks.... wait that's not it ... Nerf Warlocks ... wait am I in the right thread?

[Randomdude1223]

Leave the Alchemist alone. Most are very squishy and hard to play. Its nice that they have good DPS and there is nothing wrong with that. Some play tanks, some play DPS and some play healers. DDO has a variety of classes with advantages an disadvantages. Come here to ruin peoples fun and cry for a nerf if you are jealous of peoples kill counts is petty. No reason to come here and ruin other peoples fun.

Sigh..I don't care about kill counts i already addressed why alchemist is superior and you didnt respond to a single issue from what I posted maybe read my whole post and try to form a constructive counter argument? Instead of accusing me of "ruining people's fun" and how is alchemist hard to play in any way ? I think it's a very straight forward class well at least the pure alch bombardier builds.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

I am tired of seeing people defend alchemists the class is clearly op compared to anything else
And for this arguments sake I will try to compare it to sorcerer
Alchemist gets evasion sorcerer doesn't
Alchemist get int to saves If you take feats
Alchemist get +4 alchemical bonus to stats through spell no other class gets that
Alchemist gets rewarded through combo
Alchemist gets +30dr from goldskin vs 10 from stoneskin
Alchemist gets heal spells and they they spell power boost as a spell
Alchemist is able to bypass elemental immunity at lvl 12 vs sorc lvl 20
Alchemist gets +4 int capstone vs +2 charisma capstone from sorc
Alchemist gets to use epic defensive fighting feat??!!
They can also apply vulnerability from bombardier tree
They get cc that almost works on everything vs mass holds from sorcerer spells
They get better dc as well and use less spell points than a sorcerer would
I am comparing alchemists at endgame which is usually where I play most this class is too op and needs a huge nerf
Also new tree has a no save color spray that works on almost everything pair that with an alchemist and you got such an unbalanced op class
New broken sla can be used with sorc as well

This is clearly a 100% troll just to get people arguing - 'randomdude' with a game join date of january 2021 is commenting on 'endgame' and a class that is far from OP (I played an alchemist on Hardcore and it was far far far from easy mode - way more difficult than a paladin or barbarian, say) as if he were playing for a decade - how about you go troll WoW and leave DDO land alone.

[LurkingVeteran]

This is clearly a 100% troll just to get people arguing - 'randomdude' with a game join date of january 2021 is commenting on 'endgame' and a class that is far from OP (I played an alchemist on Hardcore and it was far far far from easy mode - way more difficult than a paladin or barbarian, say) as if he were playing for a decade - how about you go troll WoW and leave DDO land alone.

Hardcore is a very different game from the rest of it. All glass cannons are much worse there, including sorc.

[Randomdude1223]

This is clearly a 100% troll just to get people arguing - 'randomdude' with a game join date of january 2021 is commenting on 'endgame' and a class that is far from OP (I played an alchemist on Hardcore and it was far far far from easy mode - way more difficult than a paladin or barbarian, say) as if he were playing for a decade - how about you go troll WoW and leave DDO land alone.

Not sure why a bunch of you keep mentioning my joining date on the forums I have been playing the game for almost a decade I am sure if you could read you would notice if anyones trolling it's you you're not adding anything of value here no counter arguments you're rather just being very ignorant and I can tell you are very bad at this game if you dont think alchemist is over performing but I didn't expect much from someone like you tbh

[Jerevth]

I dont think you even read my post I addressed why alchemist needs to get nerfed and several others here had some really good responses to my arguments you didnt add anything of value you didn't respond to a single issue I raised and yet you're here saying "there are plenty of ways to raise an intelligent discussion about whether a class might need a bit more balancing" isn't that what I am doing ? Raising a discussion about why a class needs balancing ? Do you see the irony in this ? Lol if anyones trolling it's you

No. You were calling for a nerf of a class many enjoy.
Outright nerf.
The manner in which you wrote your post was devised as an argument typical of the outcry about a class being too powerful and you failed to take into consideration the variables that make any class, skillfully played with a dedicated gear set, extremely powerful. As has been pointed out by others, you don't take into account the Past Lives, the gear sets, the tomes, etc. You posted using an account that had one post- your initial post. You state English isn't your first language yet you write very well.

Had you wanted to start a discussion, you wouldn't start with the inflammatory statement that "Alchemist needs to be nerfed". You could have started with something along the lines of, "Should Alchemist be nerfed?" and built your discussion with a grounded basis of having played the class extensively, listed the pros and cons for a reduction in certain areas of performance for the class.

You knew what would result from making a blunt statement to start the thread off, with a puppet account. You were called on it, repeatedly.
That isn't trolling.

[Carpone]

Alchemist gets evasion sorcerer doesn't
Having played both extensively, I would rather have 280+ MRR on a sorcerer than the 70 MRR cap + Evasion on an alchemist.


Alchemist get int to saves If you take feats
At the expense of not taking other options. When I take Insightful Courage, I am not taking Advanced Orchidium Studies for additional MCL.


Alchemist get +4 alchemical bonus to stats through spell no other class gets that
Alchemist gets +4 int capstone vs +2 charisma capstone from sorc
They get better dc as well and use less spell points than a sorcerer would
And? Look at the end result. Alchemists still have a low Transmutation DC even when spiking Verudite, and their Conjuration DC is just "ok". Way too much content requires twisting in Magister Conjuration Augmentation for the -10 Reflex chance to be effective.


Alchemist gets rewarded through combo
Fantastic design. I wish combos were ubiquitous throughout the game. But it's not realistic to revamp 15 years worth of play styles across all the other classes. Hope to see more combo driven design in the future.


Alchemist gets +30dr from goldskin vs 10 from stoneskin
And? This minor benefit only matters in pre-legendary non-reaper content. If the 20 additional DR is going to save you from being one shot, you're too squishy.


Alchemist gets heal spells and they they spell power boost as a spell
The healing spells are the worst part about the alchemist playstyle to me. The bottle heals are slooooow and have a travel time. The cooldowns are long. At best you're healing outside of combat, not in the midst of the fray. I could never see playing an Apothecary Alchemist as a primary healer. Just not fast enough, and not enough output compared to every other healing capable class.


Alchemist is able to bypass elemental immunity at lvl 12 vs sorc lvl 20
There's so much content in the game, you can easily bypass heroic content that has elemental immune mobs and still be choking on XP. Or bring a friend and let them deal with fire immune trash. I've played a fire sorc for 50+ past lives and the most problematic mobs were in the level 6-10 range (fire elementals, blackbone skeletons, some oozes, etc). Once you hit level 12, you can take care of any boss as a fire sorc.


They get cc that almost works on everything vs mass holds from sorcerer spells
Sorc also has Prismatic Spray/Ray, PK, Flesh to Stone, Circle of Death, Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death, etc. A well played sorcerer is a sight to behold.

[Justicesfury]

Sigh..I don't care about kill counts i already addressed why alchemist is superior and you didnt respond to a single issue from what I posted maybe read my whole post and try to form a constructive counter argument? Instead of accusing me of "ruining people's fun" and how is alchemist hard to play in any way ? I think it's a very straight forward class well at least the pure alch bombardier builds.

You are a total troll, just in writing that you want a constructive counter argument when you were given one.

The real proof is if a class is over powered is when half the server is playing the class like we saw with Inquisitor and warlock. This is not the case with Alchemist at all.

[SirValentine]

The healing spells are the worst part about the alchemist playstyle to me. The bottle heals are slooooow and have a travel time. The cooldowns are long. At best you're healing outside of combat, not in the midst of the fray. I could never see playing an Apothecary Alchemist as a primary healer. Just not fast enough, and not enough output compared to every other healing capable class.


Absolutely true that the heals are slow, though they situationally are fine as primary healers. E.g., a tank who can take a couple hits, or party is getting moderate continual damage, but not where random individuals who can't take 2 hits are getting high damage. But not enough output? Nonsense. The output is stupidly high. One bottle will take just about anyone, including 6K HP tanks, from -9 HP to full.

I suggest letting Alchemists Quicken their healing bottles the same as they can Quicken their other thrown bottles, and disallowing them from applying Maximize/Empower/Intensifty to Heal (and Harm) bottles the same as other classes are disallowed from using those meta-magics on Heal, Harm and Mass Heal.

[timmy9999]

I am tired of seeing people defend alchemists the class is clearly op compared to anything else
And for this arguments sake I will try to compare it to sorcerer
Alchemist gets evasion sorcerer doesn't
Alchemist get int to saves If you take feats
Alchemist get +4 alchemical bonus to stats through spell no other class gets that
Alchemist gets rewarded through combo
Alchemist gets +30dr from goldskin vs 10 from stoneskin
Alchemist gets heal spells and they they spell power boost as a spell
Alchemist is able to bypass elemental immunity at lvl 12 vs sorc lvl 20
Alchemist gets +4 int capstone vs +2 charisma capstone from sorc
Alchemist gets to use epic defensive fighting feat??!!
They can also apply vulnerability from bombardier tree
They get cc that almost works on everything vs mass holds from sorcerer spells
They get better dc as well and use less spell points than a sorcerer would
I am comparing alchemists at endgame which is usually where I play most this class is too op and needs a huge nerf
Also new tree has a no save color spray that works on almost everything pair that with an alchemist and you got such an unbalanced op class
New broken sla can be used with sorc as well

Get off your sorc and roll one at cap and see how you go.

[yfernbottom]

If you look at players stats, Alchemist is still the least popular class on almost every server:

https://www.playeraudit.com/servers

Let's just say for the sake of argument that alchemists are OP. Based on how few players are using the class, it probably needs to be a bit OP because player adoption rates are really low. If we ever get into a situation where is makes it into at least the top half of classes being played, maybe the issue should be revisited. For example, artificer is nearly twice as popular and it's also a premium class.

My experience with the class when I had access to it from a sub was that it was incredibly painful to play at low levels. To the point that I never even made it to 12 to see what they are like when they come into their own. The problem to my mind was that the class has a lot of really clunky mechanics that I didn't find fun. If players are going to be expected to weather through that kind of experience, there needs to be a tangible reward on the other side of it. Particularly in a "premium" class meant to drive store sales and/ or subs.

Now this isn't to say that I actually find the class all that OP. A good 2HF or arcane nuking build can at least give them a run vs groups (once you can melt a group of mobs in about a second, all builds start to seem pretty equal), and there are many builds that put out better single target damage. I'm just saying, regardless of whether it's OP or not it would be pretty stupid to nerf the class.

I wouldn't have fed the likely troll save that this post is currently number three anyway, so no harm done I figure.

[Randomdude1223]

You are a total troll, just in writing that you want a constructive counter argument when you were given one.

The real proof is if a class is over powered is when half the server is playing the class like we saw with Inquisitor and warlock. This is not the case with Alchemist at all.

I was given constructive feedback but not a single one by you all you did Is just accuse me of trolling ruining peoples fun your respond also not being the most popular class doesn't mean its not op but I don't expect your feeble mind to comprehend that and since you haven't added any constructive feedback or anything productive to this thread this will be my last respond to you have a nice day

[Randomdude1223]

No. You were calling for a nerf of a class many enjoy.
Outright nerf.
The manner in which you wrote your post was devised as an argument typical of the outcry about a class being too powerful and you failed to take into consideration the variables that make any class, skillfully played with a dedicated gear set, extremely powerful. As has been pointed out by others, you don't take into account the Past Lives, the gear sets, the tomes, etc. You posted using an account that had one post- your initial post. You state English isn't your first language yet you write very well.

Had you wanted to start a discussion, you wouldn't start with the inflammatory statement that "Alchemist needs to be nerfed". You could have started with something along the lines of, "Should Alchemist be nerfed?" and built your discussion with a grounded basis of having played the class extensively, listed the pros and cons for a reduction in certain areas of performance for the class.

You knew what would result from making a blunt statement to start the thread off, with a puppet account. You were called on it, repeatedly.
That isn't trolling.

This is my only forum account (and my first) i have played the game for years and I think I am entitled to share an opinion on the forums like the rest of players.
I agree with you the wording of my original post could have been done better instead of just outright calling out for a nef however instead of these pitiful responds I keep getting being called a troll and what not people could respond with more constructive feedback to the arguments I raised, some people have given me good feedback actually addressing the arguments I have raised and to some degree changed my mind about how much alchemist is actually out performing other nukers which means if someone who shares the same opinion as me can just find this thread on the forums and have valuable arguments and counter arguments to validate their opinion.

[Randomdude1223]

Having played both extensively, I would rather have 280+ MRR on a sorcerer than the 70 MRR cap + Evasion on an alchemist.


At the expense of not taking other options. When I take Insightful Courage, I am not taking Advanced Orchidium Studies for additional MCL.


And? Look at the end result. Alchemists still have a low Transmutation DC even when spiking Verudite, and their Conjuration DC is just "ok". Way too much content requires twisting in Magister Conjuration Augmentation for the -10 Reflex chance to be effective.


Fantastic design. I wish combos were ubiquitous throughout the game. But it's not realistic to revamp 15 years worth of play styles across all the other classes. Hope to see more combo driven design in the future.


And? This minor benefit only matters in pre-legendary non-reaper content. If the 20 additional DR is going to save you from being one shot, you're too squishy.


The healing spells are the worst part about the alchemist playstyle to me. The bottle heals are slooooow and have a travel time. The cooldowns are long. At best you're healing outside of combat, not in the midst of the fray. I could never see playing an Apothecary Alchemist as a primary healer. Just not fast enough, and not enough output compared to every other healing capable class.


There's so much content in the game, you can easily bypass heroic content that has elemental immune mobs and still be choking on XP. Or bring a friend and let them deal with fire immune trash. I've played a fire sorc for 50+ past lives and the most problematic mobs were in the level 6-10 range (fire elementals, blackbone skeletons, some oozes, etc). Once you hit level 12, you can take care of any boss as a fire sorc.


Sorc also has Prismatic Spray/Ray, PK, Flesh to Stone, Circle of Death, Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death, etc. A well played sorcerer is a sight to behold.

I'd highly doubt you get 280+ mrr on a sorcerer using medium armor with out sacrificing some dcs or dps even then if you're not using flamecleansed set and not a fire sorcerer you're more likely to be using orders garb as a sorcerer not benefiting from any extra defenses from medium armor

You do have a point about it's a waste of feat if you know what you're doing but you dont even get an option to use your main stat for all saves on any other nuker I don't think theres a single class that actually gets to have one stat for all saves i might be wrong about this tho

I twist from magister tree for extra dcs regardless of what I am playing whether it is alchemist or sorcerer so I dont see how sorcerer gets to benefit more from this also +4 alchemical bonus to int from evolution spell+4 int from capstone (sorcerer only gets +2 charisma at capstone) leaves alchemist at an extra +3 to their dcs

Rewarding through combo is a neat system I agree but it still makes alchemist stronger but I retract my argument regarding this issue because I am not against diverse gameplay between classes

Not everyone runs high reaper content and I think every little bit helps why is it that alchemists get better dr than any other spell caster ?

Yes throwing healing vials can be troublesome but that's a game issue not a class issue my point was is that they get a heal spell while other nukers don't (unless you go war forged sorcerer and use reconstruction also that would mean not using elemental form and that's just makes it weaker) and alchemist get spellpower boost without investing enchantment points like sorcerer does

Only fire sorcerer gets to bypass immunities earlier than alchemist and even then you have to be tiefling and you have to invest a lot of enchantment points into racial tree you saying have a friend help you to bypass immunity doesn't equate that alchemist is not stronger and yes fire sorcerer can be very decent at lvl 12+ but alchemists get to bypass immunity and a very strong multi vial sla making them stronger than sorcerer at that lvl range

I partially agree with you that sorcerer gets spells that can compensate for alchemist cc but that requires more effort and skill and some these spells if not most of them require a different spell dc for each while alchemist for example can just use flesh to gold on most mobs and it's only one spell vs sorcerer having to use multiple spells to achieve the same cc

[Justicesfury]

I was given constructive feedback but not a single one by you all you did Is just accuse me of trolling ruining peoples fun your respond also not being the most popular class doesn't mean its not op but I don't expect your feeble mind to comprehend that and since you haven't added any constructive feedback or anything productive to this thread this will be my last respond to you have a nice day

Seems that when all these people on the forum gave you feedback you disagreed with, you keep spam posting that the feedback isn't constructive. Now you are resorting to name calling in frustration or simply just to troll.

[MrChipinator]

...I suggest letting Alchemists Quicken their healing bottles the same as they can Quicken their other thrown bottles, and disallowing them from applying Maximize/Empower/Intensifty to Heal (and Harm) bottles the same as other classes are disallowed from using those meta-magics on Heal, Harm and Mass Heal.

I'd rather Alchemist heals be changed to over-time like Druids, if they're going to make the targeting awful, interruptible via lag/geometry/random acts of god, blocked by enemies of sufficient size (raid bosses), slow firing, slow moving, etc etc...

It'd be nice to at least let the nature of the heal (over-time) mitigate the issues of deploying the heals.

I am perfectly aware this will never happen, so I'm fine with scaling down the Meta's they can apply.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

Not sure why a bunch of you keep mentioning my joining date on the forums I have been playing the game for almost a decade I am sure if you could read you would notice if anyones trolling it's you you're not adding anything of value here no counter arguments you're rather just being very ignorant and I can tell you are very bad at this game if you dont think alchemist is over performing but I didn't expect much from someone like you tbh

A 'decade' (lol) January 2021 - its January 9th - you literally made that account 4 days ago.

You are doing what my SIMS 4 characters call 'trolling the forums'

- hence

This thread is a 100% a troll

PS - I don't deny I am bad at this game, that's why I have a youtube channel.

We can't all be pros like you, sport

[Chai]

Although I don't agree with the OP in his quest to nerf anything he is clearly a player who has an opinion and deserves to be heard out, or we can just live in the bubble of forumites we presently have for ever and ever with the same old ideas and gripes being passed around again and again ad infinitum.

If he wants to be heard out he can reveal his main account. Show us where all this knowledge and experience is coming from.

[Justicesfury]

A 'decade' (lol) January 2021 - its January 9th - you literally made that account 4 days ago.

You are doing what my SIMS 4 characters call 'trolling the forums'

- hence

This thread is a 100% a troll

PS - I don't deny I am bad at this game, that's why I have a youtube channel.

We can't all be pros like you, sport

Yeah really, guys name is Random Dude too...

Whenever someone has trouble playing a class they cry nerf. The real way you know if a class is over powered is if everyone is playing one and that is not the case. Alchemist has good DPS and lots of other draw backs.

[Memnir]

A 'decade' (lol) January 2021 - its January 9th - you literally made that account 4 days ago. Never use Join Date as an accurate reflection of game knowledge or time spent in game. Sure, it's usually an indicator of a sock or troll in these kind of threads - but not usually great on forecasting how much the person actually knows.


Just sayin'.

[Bunker]

I am tired of seeing people defend alchemists the class is clearly op compared to anything else
And for this arguments sake I will try to compare it to sorcerer
Alchemist gets evasion sorcerer doesn't
Alchemist get int to saves If you take feats
Alchemist get +4 alchemical bonus to stats through spell no other class gets that
Alchemist gets rewarded through combo
Alchemist gets +30dr from goldskin vs 10 from stoneskin
Alchemist gets heal spells and they they spell power boost as a spell
Alchemist is able to bypass elemental immunity at lvl 12 vs sorc lvl 20
Alchemist gets +4 int capstone vs +2 charisma capstone from sorc
Alchemist gets to use epic defensive fighting feat??!!
They can also apply vulnerability from bombardier tree
They get cc that almost works on everything vs mass holds from sorcerer spells
They get better dc as well and use less spell points than a sorcerer would
I am comparing alchemists at endgame which is usually where I play most this class is too op and needs a huge nerf
Also new tree has a no save color spray that works on almost everything pair that with an alchemist and you got such an unbalanced op class
New broken sla can be used with sorc as well
Sorry OP, but you have to qualify your suggestion.....

Qualifications for requesting a nerf is as follows:

1. Request nerf under your main account.
2. List your top 3 main characters and server they are on.

[Randomdude1223]

If he wants to be heard out he can reveal his main account. Show us where all this knowledge and experience is coming from.

This is my only forums account I have been playing this game for almost 10 years but I never made a forum account until recently I am not a troll and i don't think revealing my main character has anything to do with this thread you're missing the point I don't get how my identity has anything to do with my opinions

[Randomdude1223]

Sorry OP, but you have to qualify your suggestion.....

Qualifications for requesting a nerf is as follows:

1. Request nerf under your main account.
2. List your top 3 main characters and server they are on.

Yes ignore all my arguments and focus on my joining date and my identity because thata completely relevant to anything I said on my main post

[Randomdude1223]

A 'decade' (lol) January 2021 - its January 9th - you literally made that account 4 days ago.

You are doing what my SIMS 4 characters call 'trolling the forums'

- hence

This thread is a 100% a troll

PS - I don't deny I am bad at this game, that's why I have a youtube channel.

We can't all be pros like you, sport

You know you can play the game without making an account on the forums right ?

Sims 4 what ? I don't know what you mean by that

And what does your YouTube channel has to do with you being good or bad at this game stop promoting your channel please this isn't about you

Yes call me a troll because you're not able to tackle any of the arguments I made not a single one that's why I concluded you're probably bad at this game and don't know what you're doing not sure what you're doing on this thread if you can't add anything of value just calling me a troll...lol bravo

I am not saying I am a pro theres definitely way better players than me in this game

[Randomdude1223]

Yeah really, guys name is Random Dude too...

Whenever someone has trouble playing a class they cry nerf. The real way you know if a class is over powered is if everyone is playing one and that is not the case. Alchemist has good DPS and lots of other draw backs.

Please name some of those drawbacks ?

[Bunker]

Yes ignore all my arguments and focus on my joining date and my identity because thata completely relevant to anything I said on my main post

I didn't say anything about your join date.

However, if your arguments are worth considering, then why not support them? By not supporting them you come off more as a Troll post. Sorry dude, but anonymous requests for nerf hold no water.

[acemonkey]

I am tired of seeing people defend alchemists the class is clearly op compared to anything else
And for this arguments sake I will try to compare it to sorcerer
Alchemist gets evasion sorcerer doesn't
Alchemist get int to saves If you take feats
Alchemist get +4 alchemical bonus to stats through spell no other class gets that
Alchemist gets rewarded through combo
Alchemist gets +30dr from goldskin vs 10 from stoneskin
Alchemist gets heal spells and they they spell power boost as a spell
Alchemist is able to bypass elemental immunity at lvl 12 vs sorc lvl 20
Alchemist gets +4 int capstone vs +2 charisma capstone from sorc
Alchemist gets to use epic defensive fighting feat??!!
They can also apply vulnerability from bombardier tree
They get cc that almost works on everything vs mass holds from sorcerer spells
They get better dc as well and use less spell points than a sorcerer would
I am comparing alchemists at endgame which is usually where I play most this class is too op and needs a huge nerf
Also new tree has a no save color spray that works on almost everything pair that with an alchemist and you got such an unbalanced op class
New broken sla can be used with sorc as well

This is a fallacy, that all classes are supposed to be roughly equal as in subscription games. In this game, classes and enhancement trees are products, and some cost more than others. On top of that, the #1 reason why it's ok that alchemist is ok exactly as it is and if you don't like it you should quit the game, is that alchemist was presented as is and then sold as is. Changing it after the sale without offering a refund is called bait and switch, a fraudulent activity.

OTOH, SSG is a fraudulent steaming pile of owlbear stool run by fairly dishonest people, and alchemist will be nerfed as soon as they think they squeezed all the easy money out of it and have another product ready to put through the pay to win/bait and switch cycle, exactly as with inquisitive and warlock. Your post and the other 428 "nerf alchemist" posts on this forum will have zero impact on the timing and nature of the nerf. I've adapted to this policy by cutting off payments to SSG over a year ago, you should do the same if you find differing power levels unacceptable, as they will continue in one form or another forever.

[Randomdude1223]

I didn't say anything about your join date.

However, if your arguments are worth considering, then why not support them? By not supporting them you come off more as a Troll post. Sorry dude, but anonymous requests for nerf hold no water.

I am not doing it anonymously this is my only forums account I am tired of repeating myself if you want to see me supporting my arguments go ahead and read this thread instead of being so ignorant and again my identity has nothing to do with the arguments I raised which btw you haven't responded to a single one of them

[Randomdude1223]

This is a fallacy, that all classes are supposed to be roughly equal as in subscription games. In this game, classes and enhancement trees are products, and some cost more than others. On top of that, the #1 reason why it's ok that alchemist is ok exactly as it is and if you don't like it you should quit the game, is that alchemist was presented as is and then sold as is. Changing it after the sale without offering a refund is called bait and switch, a fraudulent activity.

OTOH, SSG is a fraudulent steaming pile of owlbear stool run by fairly dishonest people, and alchemist will be nerfed as soon as they think they squeezed all the easy money out of it and have another product ready to put through the pay to win/bait and switch cycle, exactly as with inquisitive and warlock. Your post and the other 428 "nerf alchemist" posts on this forum will have zero impact on the timing and nature of the nerf. I've adapted to this policy by cutting off payments to SSG over a year ago, you should do the same if you find differing power levels unacceptable, as they will continue in one form or another forever.

I agree with you it seems that the latest class/tree enhancements always be overpeforming and then they nerf it when they're about to release the next class/tree enhancements I am seeing this has become a regular occurrence in this game

[Justicesfury]

I am not doing it anonymously this is my only forums account I am tired of repeating myself if you want to see me supporting my arguments go ahead and read this thread instead of being so ignorant and again my identity has nothing to do with the arguments I raised which btw you haven't responded to a single one of them

So now on top of calling me feeble minded you are calling bunker ignorant.

Of course you are not here with a new account to troll or make trouble....

[Bunker]

I agree with you it seems that the latest class/tree enhancements always be overpeforming and then they nerf it when they're about to release the next class/tree enhancements I am seeing this has become a regular occurrence in this game

This is a common part of the game. Take a look at the Dwarf enhancement tree (which needs a serious update), you need to spend 15+ points to get Con to dmg as a tier 4 enhancement. But PDK gets both hit/dmg as tier 1, 3 points spent. Should we nerf PDK, or bring dwarf and other old racial enhancement trees up to par?

Look what happen to Warlock. Nerf was not a solution. Warlock has no way to bypass immune mobs on their main pact dmg type. But Sorc and Alchemist do. Should we remove that ability from sorcerer and alchemist, or bring warlock up to par.

Your points are weak and nerf is not the solution.

There has been many times where the game has evolved and old classes/races have not. But since the game evolves, newly released classes and races are setup based on the most present version of the game. They may look over powered, but in actuality what has happen many times is the old classes and races have just been passed by.

[Randomdude1223]

So now on top of calling me feeble minded you are calling bunker ignorant.

Of course you are not here with a new account to troll or make trouble....

Why don't you respond to my other reply asking you what the drawbacks are ? Why can't you (this is like my forth time saying this) add anything productive to this thread please let me know what some of the drawbacks are and prove me wrong that you're not feeble minded:)
P.S I dont know who bunker is and I am sure he/she can defend themselves

[Randomdude1223]

This is a common part of the game. Take a look at the Dwarf enhancement tree (which needs a serious update), you need to spend 15+ points to get Con to dmg as a tier 4 enhancement. But PDK gets both hit/dmg as tier 1, 3 points spent. Should we nerf PDK, or bring dwarf and other old racial enhancement trees up to par?

Look what happen to Warlock. Nerf was not a solution. Warlock has no way to bypass immune mobs on their main pact dmg type. But Sorc and Alchemist do. Should we remove that ability from sorcerer and alchemist, or bring warlock up to par.

Your points are weak and nerf is not the solution.

There has been many times where the game has evolved and old classes/races have not. But since the game evolves, newly released classes and races are setup based on the most present version of the game. They may look over powered, but in actuality what has happen many times is the old classes and races have just been passed by.

Warlock is my favourite class I play it a lot you can make it work if you know what you're doing of course it won't be on par with nukers like alchemist/sorcerer but it's a lot more survivable and I wouldnt call it a nuker class I am comparing alchemist (bombardier builds) vs sorcerer because they are very familiar to what they should be doing aka spell casting dps inking or whatever you wanna call it and can you please elaborate on why my points are weak?

Also warlock was nerfed before reaper came out and warlock even after the nerf was pretty decent at EE content
PDK uses charisma while dwarf uses con to damage you're comparing different races with few similarities to each other unlike alchemist vs sorcerer as they both do nuking/aoe damage etc

[Bunker]

Why don't you respond to my other reply asking you what the drawbacks are ? Why can't you (this is like my forth time saying this) add anything productive to this thread please let me know what some of the drawbacks are and prove me wrong that you're not feeble minded:)
P.S I dont know who bunker is and I am sure he/she can defend themselves

Another reason you might not get a response is that your OP really isn't worth responding to. It isn't always the inability for any of us to respond, but the lack of a good request that isn't worth a response. Furthermore, if there are others that have made good counter points to your poor example for a need of an alchemist nerf, why do we need to say the same thing.

Any initial idea might be a good one, till it is shot down. Nothing wrong with putting an idea out there, but after you test that idea on an open forum, and it is met with plenty of negative responses, it doesn't mean that your original idea ends up becoming more valid. It could just be wrong, that is a possibility.

[ggmarquez]

...after you test that idea on an open forum, and it is met with plenty of negative responses, it doesn't mean that your original idea ends up becoming more valid. It could just be wrong, that is a possibility.

unless he's not wrong. as evidenced by all the other posts also calling for nuking nerfs. as well as all the little gisty and ying brags with rxp/minute to highlight the OP-ness and lay to rest the idea that alchemist isn't due for a tweak.

just wait randomdude. it's coming. it's only a matter of time.

[Bunker]

Warlock is my favourite class I play it a lot you can make it work if you know what you're doing of course it won't be on par with nukers like alchemist/sorcerer but it's a lot more survivable and I wouldnt call it a nuker class I am comparing alchemist (bombardier builds) vs sorcerer because they are very familiar to what they should be doing aka spell casting dps inking or whatever you wanna call it and can you please elaborate on why my points are weak?

Also warlock was nerfed before reaper came out and warlock even after the nerf was pretty decent at EE content
PDK uses charisma while dwarf uses con to damage you're comparing different races with few similarities to each other unlike alchemist vs sorcerer as they both do nuking/aoe damage etc

No, the comparison of dwarf con to dmg and pdk cha to hit/dmg is a straight comparison to your sorc +2 cha / alch +4 int as a capstone. It was in response to your comment that the latest trees/enhancement over perform old ones.

And my response was to say that the over performing in that manner does not always constitute a nerf of the newest class, but rather an update of the older classes and races.

[Bunker]

unless he's not wrong. as evidenced by all the other posts also calling for nuking nerfs. as well as all the little gisty and ying brags with rxp/minute to highlight the OP-ness and lay to rest the idea that alchemist isn't due for a tweak.

just wait randomdude. it's coming. it's only a matter of time.

It is my understanding that Gisty is on an island all by himself. The island that showed all others how to play the alchemist class. I could be wrong........

rxp/min post will always be there, regardless of class, race, build, ect........

You have to ask yourself, are you trying to nerf a few players, or the entire class? I guarantee that the players you might be try to nerf will not be as affected as the rest of the community by these insane requests.

Is he asking for a nerf, or for balance, because balance requires that the other end of the spectrum get an increase.......That's how it works.

[Randomdude1223]

Another reason you might not get a response is that your OP really isn't worth responding to. It isn't always the inability for any of us to respond, but the lack of a good request that isn't worth a response. Furthermore, if there are others that have made good counter points to your poor example for a need of an alchemist nerf, why do we need to say the same thing.

Any initial idea might be a good one, till it is shot down. Nothing wrong with putting an idea out there, but after you test that idea on an open forum, and it is met with plenty of negative responses, it doesn't mean that your original idea ends up becoming more valid. It could just be wrong, that is a possibility.


Okay sure my initial response isn't "worth responding to" then why even respond with anything why did you ask me to reveal my main character what does that have to do with anything regarding my OP ? Why is justice calling me a troll instead of doing anything productive in this thread the only negative responses I got was being called a troll or people asking me to reveal who I am (like you) or people mentioning on how new my forum account is

Please again elaborate how my examples are "poor" ? You can form your opinion correct ?
"Why do we need to say the same thing" again you came here asking me to reveal who I am to be able to validate asking for a nerf

I stand by my opinion that alchemist is overpeforming most responses to my arguments while some was good others didnt even respond to what I said

[Randomdude1223]

No, the comparison of dwarf con to dmg and pdk cha to hit/dmg is a straight comparison to your sorc +2 cha / alch +4 int as a capstone. It was in response to your comment that the latest trees/enhancement over perform old ones.

And my response was to say that the over performing in that manner does not always constitute a nerf of the newest class, but rather an update of the older classes and races.

Well here I go again capstone argument is the least of my concerns but every little bit adds up alchemist having an extra +3 to their dcs on top of all the other bonuses they get makes more powerful and like I said in some of the responses here I don't care if they should nerf alchemist or buff other nukers just do one of the two

[Randomdude1223]

unless he's not wrong. as evidenced by all the other posts also calling for nuking nerfs. as well as all the little gisty and ying brags with rxp/minute to highlight the OP-ness and lay to rest the idea that alchemist isn't due for a tweak.

just wait randomdude. it's coming. it's only a matter of time.

I don't care about gisty they can play any class and make it look amazing those are top tier players
I ran alchemist and sorcerer and when I did alchemist i had better self heals I didn't have to worry about traps (because evasion) I had better dcs better dps etc so I concluded that its not fair
If the nerf comes sooner or later that doesnt matter to me as long as it happens

[ggmarquez]

It is my understanding that Gisty is on an island all by himself.

that sounds... lonely. ;-)


rxp/min post will always be there, regardless of class, race, build, ect........

i've got a few cleric/arti/druid caster builds i would like to see in the hands of a professional. if they can make the same rxp gains in roughly the same time-frame... then i will accept that alchemist is tuned fairly and well balanced.


Is he asking for a nerf, or for balance, because balance requires that the other end of the spectrum get an increase.......That's how it works.

is that how it works? because from what i've seen, when the scales are tipped in one direction, if you attempt to balance it by continuing to add to the side that is lighter, unless you hit parity quickly, you'll eventually break the scales.

[Bunker]

that sounds... lonely. ;-)



i've got a few cleric/arti/druid caster builds i would like to see in the hands of a professional. if they can make the same rxp gains in roughly the same time-frame... then i will accept that alchemist is tuned fairly and well balanced.



is that how it works? because from what i've seen, when the scales are tipped in one direction, if you attempt to balance it by continuing to add to the side that is lighter, unless you hit parity quickly, you'll eventually break the scales.

cleric/arti/druid multiclass build????

Over 1/2 of his examples in the op are poor. Hardly breaking the scale.

[janave]

i've got a few cleric/arti/druid caster builds i would like to see in the hands of a professional. if they can make the same rxp gains in roughly the same time-frame... then i will accept that alchemist is tuned fairly and well balanced.



Would it really make people happy if these classes were just as effective at killing masses of monsters at run speed? I am personally much happier if the game instances offered other objectives, and alternate completion paths for these classes. It seems like a way to solve balance problems while drastically improving replay value of the game. Classes would not be just cosmetic placeholders of [same_damage_potential], but a really different way to play effectively once we master playing them. I see more balance problems in content that is built for brute force with mob packs lined up one after another.

Reaper was supposed to soft force players back into grouping, so anything that shows off with a great solo rxp/minute will likely get nerfed at some point, that or the quest instance will become ambertempled. Same deal with modern raids, classes likely to lose stuff if that few players keep showing off with their "achievements", tho i personally never understood that kind of achievement, because relatively: soloing low level reapers with a fresh character is a 100 times more challenging compared to soloing high reaper with fully optimized level 30 characters. It is relatively easy to create artificial challenges in DDO, a lot of players complain that r1 too easy, yet they keep playing old content on base+2 streaks, instead of new content base+0/-1 this i personally do for example, and i find the challenge correct and fun.

[Avocado]

Alchs get alch int +4 and 4 int capstone because their spells cap at level 6 and sorcs cap at 9 meaning they are missing 3 dcs from heighten. Thats why they get extra int. Its completely fair. This

Alchemist has the highest skill floor of any class and once you put in the 10 million+ RXP time into mastering it, it becomes the most fun class in ddo.

[Varr]

Alch is an evasion opt in and probably a multivile to heavy as is. No reason for Evasion to be a class benefit. Those 2 changes probably square the class.

Fire sorcs could use a 10% hair cut in DPS output while we're at it and fix that goofball Color Spray to have a save.

That will do it for now on the caster side.

On the Melee/Ranged side: Paladins have been bad for a decade, lets give them 6 more months of free reign. Bow rework for the silly elves is on the way it sounds, badly needed.

Lag fix would be splendid.

That covers everything for this week.

[Randomdude1223]

Alchs get alch int +4 and 4 int capstone because their spells cap at level 6 and sorcs cap at 9 meaning they are missing 3 dcs from heighten. Thats why they get extra int. Its completely fair. This

Alchemist has the highest skill floor of any class and once you put in the 10 million+ RXP time into mastering it, it becomes the most fun class in ddo.

I didnt know that they're capped at lvl 6 spells thank you for pointing that out I guess it is only fair they that little bit extra dcs it seems my arguments regarding alchemist were more flawed than I thought

[janave]

I didnt know that they're capped at lvl 6 spells thank you for pointing that out I guess it is only fair they that little bit extra dcs it seems my arguments regarding alchemist were more flawed than I thought

I would not say flawed, i think if anything: balancing by "equalization" is more flawed. Anyway, still does not calc out, Alchemist is still ahead on DCs, just a little less, also does not calc with other 6th vs 9th spell level casters. If the classes were implemented as originally imagined, we would have probably the best short term (burst) DCs on Sorcerer, the best passive on Wizard and Clerics and then everything following closely with 1-2 DC diffs. Could make a case for Warlocks burst DC too, they kinda already do with the T1 Scholar, but this fades next to all the stacking passives we got at 30 now.

That Heighten compensation is absolutely not a pattern in current design, and to be fair not sure if it really makes sense anyway.

[Randomdude1223]

Alch is an evasion opt in and probably a multivile to heavy as is. No reason for Evasion to be a class benefit. Those 2 changes probably square the class.

Fire sorcs could use a 10% hair cut in DPS output while we're at it and fix that goofball Color Spray to have a save.

That will do it for now on the caster side.

On the Melee/Ranged side: Paladins have been bad for a decade, lets give them 6 more months of free reign. Bow rework for the silly elves is on the way it sounds, badly needed.

Lag fix would be splendid.

That covers everything for this week.

I completely agree with everything you say in that post thank you:)

[Randomdude1223]

I would not say flawed, i think if anything: balancing by "equalization" is more flawed. Anyway, still does not calc out, Alchemist is still ahead on DCs, just a little less, also does not calc with other 6th vs 9th spell level casters. If the classes were implemented as originally imagined, we would have probably the best short term (burst) DCs on Sorcerer, the best passive on Wizard and Clerics and then everything following closely with 1-2 DC diffs. Could make a case for Warlocks burst DC too, they kinda already do with the T1 Scholar, but this fades next to all the stacking passives we got at 30 now.

That Heighten compensation is absolutely not a pattern in current design, and to be fair not sure if it really makes sense anyway.
Agreed I have had better dcs on my alchemist than what I had on my sorcerer but cant remember how I will have to retell one and figure out where the extra dcs coming from maybe better filigrees?or gear not sure and yes heighten spell system doesnt make sense lol I second that.

[janave]

Agreed I have had better dcs on my alchemist than what I had on my sorcerer but cant remember how I will have to retell one and figure out where the extra dcs coming from maybe better filigrees?or gear not sure and yes heighten spell system doesnt make sense lol I second that.

Event Augment +2 INT => +1;
Orange state +3;
T5 +1;

Bonus Feats could also be spent on more without losing spell meta feats (or spell pen on Sorcerer.) Gearwise INT is superior mostly due to content limits, not sure if that is an issue with gearing, have more choices for tetris sure.

[Randomdude1223]

Event Augment +2 INT => +1;
Orange state +3;
T5 +1;

Bonus Feats could also be spent on more without losing spell meta feats (or spell pen on Sorcerer.) Gearwise INT is superior mostly due to content limits, not sure if that is an issue with gearing, have more choices for tetris sure.
Ah yes +2 festive
Extra 1 from orders garb set
Orange state
Alchemical bonus from evolution
Capstone extra 1
And rare int raid filigrees are eye of the beholder so I have extra filigree slots for dcs
Thank you very much for helping me figure it out

[fatherpirate]

multi-class builds usually come in one of three flavors

1. The multi-class has synergy, they compliment each other
to create an overall stronger build.

2. It is just fun or fixes an issue - often with an arty or rogue
splash for trap skills or 2 levels of Barb for blood sacrifice. This type
often has mainly one class, with a splash

3. Noob - a mix with no particular reason and is weaker than a
regular pure class.

[Carpone]

I'd highly doubt you get 280+ mrr on a sorcerer using medium armor with out sacrificing some dcs or dps even then if you're not using flamecleansed set and not a fire sorcerer you're more likely to be using orders garb as a sorcerer not benefiting from any extra defenses from medium armor
I run with a sorc that tanks Doom Reapers and R10 quest bosses for us. He hits a 149 necro DC when boosting.

Without Diefic Warding stacked, or 10 MRR pots (so another 30 MRR):
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/743098630189088869/794334040634949642/unknown.png

Even without the stacks or the pots, I'd take 248 MRR over the 70 MRR + Evasion of an alchemist.


Not everyone runs high reaper content and I think every little bit helps why is it that alchemists get better dr than any other spell caster ?
Gold Skin just allows you to be lazy about self-healing when mobs are doing less than 30 dmg/hit to you, like waiting the 3 min for the Litany ambush to pass. You're making a big deal about something that is meaningless in difficult content.

[LOOON375]

Bring other classes up, don't tear one down.This!
Stop demanding stuff be nerfed.
Every time they nerf something, it ends up doing even more damage regarding balance.

[janave]

I run with a sorc that has 290+ PRR, 280+ MRR and tanks Doom Reapers and R10 quest bosses for us. He hits a 149 necro DC when boosting.

These numbers only tell that every other __layer__ is adding too much, there is about 10+20 PRR in Sorcerer Trees, and there is +0 unique bonus to NEC DCs from the class, so if you can get these stats on a Sorcerer you can get it on any other caster as well.

Med armor can be locked to the EK melee stances, that should balance some of the crazy cookie cutter. I think PRR, MRR values are generally too low at the start of the game, and too high at the end.

I havent seen any objective discussion yet about Sorcerer as players just throw around numbers with 0 deduction, much of those values coming from races, gear, progress, feats, enhancements, destinies,... best of it all- most of those are universal or available to many other classes just as readily.

[Carpone]

if you can get these stats on a Sorcerer you can get it on any other caster as well.
Then show me how it's done for "any other caster".

You're also handwaving away the primary reason why sorc is better than other casters when DCs matter: Faster casting and faster cooldowns than any other class.

[janave]

Then show me how it's done for "any other caster".

You're also handwaving away the primary reason why sorc is better than other casters when DCs matter: Faster casting and faster cooldowns than any other class


Agreed, Magister is an outlier. :)




You're also handwaving away the primary reason why sorc is better than other casters when DCs matter: Faster casting and faster cooldowns than any other class


This is a compensation from the rule implementors because in DDO every caster functions as a Sorcerer (cast the spell you want until you can afford it from a unified resource pool).

Every caster in the game has some unique edge, ( some less useful than others), actually both cooldowns and faster casting can be improved on any caster, in the end making the relative edge of a Sorcerer dampened.

[Bunker]

I run with a sorc that tanks Doom Reapers and R10 quest bosses for us. He hits a 149 necro DC when boosting.

Without Diefic Warding stacked, or 10 MRR pots (so another 30 MRR):
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/743098630189088869/794334040634949642/unknown.png


OP, the title of your thread is inaccurate. Please change it to, sorcerer needs a nerf.

TY

[janave]

OP, the title of your thread is inaccurate. Please change it to, sorcerer needs a nerf.

TY

Perfect, thank you to illustrate my point :P. I love when players ask for a nerf for a class and they link in a build or charsheet where very maybe 5% of the stats is coming from the class itself and the other 95% is from outside of the class grants. Good job. :)

[Bunker]

Perfect, thank you to illustrate my point :P. I love when players ask for a nerf for a class and they link in a build or charsheet where very maybe 5% of the stats is coming from the class itself and the other 95% is from outside of the class grants. Good job. :)

yeah, I hope you can see my sarcasm in that post. That is the point. And moreover, when i see a forum poster start their forum posting off with a nerf thread, it is safe to assume they are just trolling for the sake of trolling. ya know. I don't care if the player has been active for 10 years in game. You come guns a blazing for a nerf, all the while not contributing to anything with substance and it just screams trolling.

[janave]

I dont have an animal in this fight to be honest, i would like a fun class over obscene char sheets.


What i want for Sorcerer personally is:


not DPS
not Armor/Defense
not equalization
unique enhancements/class grants
fun gameplay
all specs, currently elemental savants ( air, water, earth) and dc caster viable instead of just fire
fairplay, up and down adjustments are okay, as long as the direction is not homogenization ( the first round of nerfs failed bad)
throttling with the content 1st priority, and character design 2nd.




@Bunker, yup sorry, i will fail my sarcasm checks every now and then, 2 days without sleep so far :)

[Randomdude1223]

I run with a sorc that tanks Doom Reapers and R10 quest bosses for us. He hits a 149 necro DC when boosting.

Without Diefic Warding stacked, or 10 MRR pots (so another 30 MRR):
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/743098630189088869/794334040634949642/unknown.png

Even without the stacks or the pots, I'd take 248 MRR over the 70 MRR + Evasion of an alchemist.


Gold Skin just allows you to be lazy about self-healing when mobs are doing less than 30 dmg/hit to you, like waiting the 3 min for the Litany ambush to pass. You're making a big deal about something that is meaningless in difficult content.

Well you just proved me right by saying "something that is meaningless in difficult content" like I said not everyone runs r10s and I saw you on Khyber you're one of them players that has all the past lifes and probably 156+ reaper points you don't represent most of the players only the top 5% and just because its minor dr advantage doesnt mean its not there still an advantage over sorcerer
Let's put everything aside a minute holy s**t dude that is some impressive stats I cant even begin to fathom how you can achieve such everything like that you make my sorcerer look like a baby

[Randomdude1223]

OP, the title of your thread is inaccurate. Please change it to, sorcerer needs a nerf.

TY
OP pls reveal your identity to make your nerf request valid
OP bad has poor arguments but I won't mention why because i cant think for myself or even quote others
OP half arguments are invalid even tho I wont state why
OP is trolling
OP should ask to nerf sorcerer instead
That's you that's all you do/say are you actually going to add anything meaningful to this thread ? At this point I highly doubt you're even capable of doing that

[Randomdude1223]

multi-class builds usually come in one of three flavors

1. The multi-class has synergy, they compliment each other
to create an overall stronger build.

2. It is just fun or fixes an issue - often with an arty or rogue
splash for trap skills or 2 levels of Barb for blood sacrifice. This type
often has mainly one class, with a splash

3. Noob - a mix with no particular reason and is weaker than a
regular pure class.

Dude what ? I think you're in the wrong thread

[MaeveTuohy]

I run with a sorc that tanks Doom Reapers and R10 quest bosses for us. He hits a 149 necro DC when boosting.

Without Diefic Warding stacked, or 10 MRR pots (so another 30 MRR):
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/743098630189088869/794334040634949642/unknown.png

Even without the stacks or the pots, I'd take 248 MRR over the 70 MRR + Evasion of an alchemist.


Gold Skin just allows you to be lazy about self-healing when mobs are doing less than 30 dmg/hit to you, like waiting the 3 min for the Litany ambush to pass. You're making a big deal about something that is meaningless in difficult content.

Any chance you have this build written up/posted somewhere.

I know my alt sorc doesn't have starts anywhere near that and I'd love to know how you build it all.

Can always PM me.

Thanks in advance.

[Avocado]

I run with a sorc that tanks Doom Reapers and R10 quest bosses for us. He hits a 149 necro DC when boosting.

Without Diefic Warding stacked, or 10 MRR pots (so another 30 MRR):
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/743098630189088869/794334040634949642/unknown.png

Even without the stacks or the pots, I'd take 248 MRR over the 70 MRR + Evasion of an alchemist.


Gold Skin just allows you to be lazy about self-healing when mobs are doing less than 30 dmg/hit to you, like waiting the 3 min for the Litany ambush to pass. You're making a big deal about something that is meaningless in difficult content.

Lets be clear here that this in only for DC sorcs. And not for DPS boss sorcs. If we really want to compare alchs to sorcs then we may want to use the more widely played DPS type of sorc. DPS sorcs dont get that kind of defense or DCs or hp.

[Bunker]

OP pls reveal your identity to make your nerf request valid
OP bad has poor arguments but I won't mention why because i cant think for myself or even quote others
OP half arguments are invalid even tho I wont state why
OP is trolling
OP should ask to nerf sorcerer instead
That's you that's all you do/say are you actually going to add anything meaningful to this thread ? At this point I highly doubt you're even capable of doing that

What are you expecting on an open forum? Do we all have to agree with you. Get over yourself and your idea already.

sometimes ideas are bad, and they do not need explanation.

[Randomdude1223]

What are you expecting on an open forum? Do we all have to agree with you. Get over yourself and your idea already.

sometimes ideas are bad, and they do not need explanation.

You dont have to agree with me but your lack of any reasonable response is what I am bringing up again you're not adding anything meaningful to this thread and you only choose to respond to what suits you

[Bunker]

You dont have to agree with me but your lack of any reasonable response is what I am bringing up again you're not adding anything meaningful to this thread and you only choose to respond to what suits you
So now we have to respond how you want us to?

Ok, in what way can I respond that suits you. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Randomdude1223]

So now we have to respond how you want us to?

Ok, in what way can I respond that suits you. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ugh it's like talk to a wall I am not telling you in what way you should respond I am saying instead of being like ReVeAl yOuR IdEnTity you can actually talk about the subject I posted instead of being oh my arguments are bad actually tell me why they're bad ? Quote others if you like to add something productive instead of calling me a troll your level of ignorance is astonishing you didnt mention why my arguments are bad just that they are because you dont agree with and you're too stubborn to say why you didnt mention why my identity has anything to do with validating me asking for a nerf even tho I asked you multiple times what does that have to do with anything you chose to ignore it so again I am asking you to gather up whatever brain cells you have left (if there's any) and actually respond to anything I mentioned instead of being like OP BaD OP TrOLl OP new on forum so he cant have opinion you said half my arguments dont scale up well ? Why dont you be like others and respond to the issues you also said my ideas are bad so it's not worth responding to ? You see how ignorant you are ? I am tired of repeating myself to you although I wont back down from this debate or any debate and who do you mean by us ? I am only telling this to you stop using other people's opinions because you can't form your own

[Bunker]

Ugh it's like talk to a wall I am not telling you in what way you should respond I am saying instead of being like ReVeAl yOuR IdEnTity you can actually talk about the subject I posted instead of being oh my arguments are bad actually tell me why they're bad ? Quote others if you like to add something productive instead of calling me a troll your level of ignorance is astonishing you didnt mention why my arguments are bad just that they are because you dont agree with and you're too stubborn to say why you didnt mention why my identity has anything to do with validating me asking for a nerf even tho I asked you multiple times what does that have to do with anything you chose to ignore it so again I am asking you to gather up whatever brain cells you have left (if there's any) and actually respond to anything I mentioned instead of being like OP BaD OP TrOLl OP new on forum so he cant have opinion you said half my arguments dont scale up well ? Why dont you be like others and respond to the issues you also said my ideas are bad so it's not worth responding to ? You see how ignorant you are ? I am tired of repeating myself to you although I wont back down from this debate or any debate and who do you mean by us ? I am only telling this to you stop using other people's opinions because you can't form your own

You seem really hung up on a few comments. Dam.

Other's peoples opinions might be aligned with mine. I'm not using their opinion, but agreeing with it.

[janave]

Any chance you have this build written up/posted somewhere.

I know my alt sorc doesn't have starts anywhere near that and I'd love to know how you build it all.

Can always PM me.

Thanks in advance.

Dont get me wrong, that is a spectacular charsheet, but then my guild mate runs a 140 INT Wizard with 7200 spell points, also able to tank r7-8s :), compared to the uber players he is mostly casual, has less hitpoints tho, much less ~2.4k, i dont get the hitpoints part, but considering how little of it is inside any uniquely Sorcerer grant, that is all gear and grind layers by process of elimination.

[Carpone]

Lets be clear here that this in only for DC sorcs. And not for DPS boss sorcs. If we really want to compare alchs to sorcs then we may want to use the more widely played DPS type of sorc. DPS sorcs dont get that kind of defense or DCs or hp.
Sorc nukers don't scale well in R10 after the nerfs in U46.2. There are only a handful of players in the game that can still pilot a sorc nuker in R10s as effectively as a DC sorc. They're the exception, not the rule. If you want to succeed in the most difficult content, a DC sorc focused on instakills is a better option than nuking. If you're not running high skulls, discussing PRR/MRR is a moot point. Both nuker sorcs and alchemists perform just fine in low skull content.

[Randomdude1223]

You seem really hung up on a few comments. Dam.

Other's peoples opinions might be aligned with mine. I'm not using their opinion, but agreeing with it.

Kk cool you're beneath me to keep responding to anymore have fun with that kind of ignorant mentality

[HuneyMunster]

No real point in comparing Alchemist to Sorcerer at the moment until they get their pass. Though as Steelstar said it will most likely be "tree adjustments (mostly cleanup)". Though I still think the Savant trees should be molded into a single Savant tree where you choose your element. Then Sorcerers can get an alternative to Melee/Defence tree and Nuking tree that could maybe supplement Feydark tree.

[Bunker]

Kk cool you're beneath me to keep responding to anymore have fun with that kind of ignorant mentality

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/64750556.jpg

[AnarchyJesus]

if u think sorc is bad vs alch blame the nerf cryers

[Randomdude1223]

Sorc nukers don't scale well in R10 after the nerfs in U46.2. There are only a handful of players in the game that can still pilot a sorc nuker in R10s as effectively as a DC sorc. They're the exception, not the rule. If you want to succeed in the most difficult content, a DC sorc focused on instakills is a better option than nuking. If you're not running high skulls, discussing PRR/MRR is a moot point. Both nuker sorcs and alchemists perform just fine in low skull content.

This isn't about succeeding in most difficult content this thread was my attempt to compare bombardier alchemist to sorcerer nuker and yes both sorcerers and alchemist perform well in low reaper content but so does pretty all classes
Your stats (although very impressive) are like what other pointed out they're on a dc sorcerer not Nuker sorcerer so you cant say I'd rather have more mrr than evasion because I don't think a nuker sorcerer will be able to get 200+ mrr and even then most players most sorcerers (excluding fire) use orders garb set and they dont get the extra defenses from medium armor while alchemist enjoys evasion

[Malex]

I am tired of seeing people defend alchemists the class is clearly op compared to anything else
And for this arguments sake I will try to compare it to sorcerer
Alchemist gets evasion sorcerer doesn't ok sorcerer have reflex saves as a weakness, basically their only weakness
Alchemist get int to saves If you take feats have you read force of personality?
Alchemist get +4 alchemical bonus to stats through spell no other class gets that
Alchemist gets rewarded through combo what?
Alchemist gets +30dr from goldskin vs 10 from stoneskin Sorcerer get to use medium armor AND get +10% on AC and especially +10 prr. Besides, 30 dr on reaper is useless starting lv 16...
Alchemist gets heal spells and they they spell power boost as a spell They get reconstruct if running warforged, and they get regular action boost. So the point is?
Alchemist is able to bypass elemental immunity at lvl 12 vs sorc lvl 20 ok, but sorcerer get much more spell power so
Alchemist gets +4 int capstone vs +2 charisma capstone from sorc They get a ****ton of caster level though. Are we ignoring that part?
Alchemist gets to use epic defensive fighting feat??!! so can a sorc, when using meteor swarm....
They can also apply vulnerability from bombardier tree have you ever used an air savant? do you know it gets that *at core 12*
They get cc that almost works on everything vs mass holds from sorcerer spells have you read web? It even avoids spell resistance, constrary to most alchemists'
They get better dc as well and use less spell points than a sorcerer would Actually for all the heroics alchemist finish spell points in 3 fights. Sorcerer is *never* out of spell points. In epics, alchemists power drops significantly
I am comparing alchemists at endgame which is usually where I play most this class is too op and needs a huge nerf
Also new tree has a no save color spray that works on almost everything pair that with an alchemist and you got such an unbalanced op class as you mention, sorc use that too. So whats the point here? mentioning random things as above?


Basically you cherry-picked what is better of alchemist AND IGNORED WERE SORCERER GETS BETTER
- Are we ignoring immunities you get by being an elemental?
- Are we ignoring huge bonuses to CL and MCL? (total: 6)
- Are we ignoring medium armor?
- Are we ignoring PRR and MRR?
- Are we ignoring eldritch knight altogether?
- Are we ignoring goodies like immunity to knockdown (air savant 18) or petrification immunity (earth 18) or paralysis immunity (fire/water 18)?
- Are we ignoring the lv12 cores altoghether? (which are great debuffs, including vulnerability)
- Are we ignoring T5 abilities like wind dance, icy prison etc?

Given any class, it's so easy to cherry-pick..

[Carpone]

This isn't about succeeding in most difficult content this thread was my attempt to compare bombardier alchemist to sorcerer nuker and yes both sorcerers and alchemist perform well in low reaper content but so does pretty all classes
Your stats (although very impressive) are like what other pointed out they're on a dc sorcerer not Nuker sorcerer so you cant say I'd rather have more mrr than evasion because I don't think a nuker sorcerer will be able to get 200+ mrr and even then most players most sorcerers (excluding fire) use orders garb set and they dont get the extra defenses from medium armor while alchemist enjoys evasion
Telling me what I prefer is ludicrous. I've played a fire or ice sorc for 50+ past lives leveling in low-mid skulls, as well as farming R10s at cap. I have earned 20+ million reaper XP doing R10s as an alchemist. I stopped playing a sorcerer nuker after the heavy handed nerfs in U46.2. Just because you're stuck in the mindset that casters can only wear cloth is your limitation. All you have done so far is claim a bunch of class perks are OP. You have not yet had a coherent, insightful proposal about why alchemist class features are "OP" other than it's just your opinion.

If the discussion is not about the fringes of the game where classes are not created equal (R10s), then the discussion is moot. Neither sorc nor alchemist needs to be adjusted in low or mid skulls, regardless of character level. The disparity in classes only becomes exacerbated running in high skulls at level cap with the absolute best gear. And that disparity doesn't warrant sweeping changes. There are surgical changes that can be made with alchemist so it retains it's fun-to-play characteristics.

[mikarddo]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/743098630189088869/794334040634949642/unknown.png
t.

Looks good. I you happen to have a description of the build I wouldnt mind see it.

[Avocado]

Sorc nukers don't scale well in R10 after the nerfs in U46.2. There are only a handful of players in the game that can still pilot a sorc nuker in R10s as effectively as a DC sorc. They're the exception, not the rule. If you want to succeed in the most difficult content, a DC sorc focused on instakills is a better option than nuking. If you're not running high skulls, discussing PRR/MRR is a moot point. Both nuker sorcs and alchemists perform just fine in low skull content.

Right, I agree. I was just trying to point out to people who said ( maybe jokingly) that sorc needs a nerf after seeing the character sheet you posted that its not a nuker sorc. I think the op just wants to compare nuker type builds and I'm unsure what content level they run.