Does the Balance Skill do anything at all?

[Bjond]

I've read that the balance skill decreases the time spent on the ground after you're tripped or knocked down. This isn't true. I was playing a character with 107 balance in KT and standing next to a character with 23 balance. We both got knocked down from a tail-swipe. We both stood up. I was laughing at the perfectly unrealistic synchronized identical movements ... until I realized that my character should have stood up MUCH quicker.

As far as I can tell, trip checks are stat-based; ie. balance isn't checked, STR or DEX is checked.

A number of old posts tout balance for tanks, colloquially saying "you'll tank on your back without it". I have a CHA-based PLD tank with zero invested in balance. I can recall being KD'd, but it's ultra-rare and I'm fairly sure it's never happened in a raid other than 2H2H.

So, uh, what point is there in the skill at all other than as a 7p requirement for SWF builds? Anyone done testing on it in the past year?

[J1NG]

It's still useful for "some" types of knockdowns, primarily the Hammer Smash by a 'Forged Titan. Exceeding a certain amount, can't remember if it was 35 or 45, think it was 35, means you were thrown around but not actually knocked down.

Certain "traps" still use a Balance check in part, so there's some use there. But as noted, a Reflex save or evasion probably ignore that in the first place. So Balance is really mostly for SWF and immunity to Titan Hammer shashes.

J1NG

[Epicstorms]

Yeah, as far as i know with my very limited build experience, balance is not that important anymore.

I also recall that balance used to be more relevant and tanks should skill this, but I am currently running a tank where the balance skill is just... left out.

Not sure why, i'll leave that to the experts, but overall I'd say that balance lost its value over the years.

[HastyPudding]

Balance is one of the few skills that needs to be redone.

Balance
- should reduce the distance you are knocked back (etc, giants and air elementals)
- should reduce the slow effect from slippery surfaces

Swim
- should allow you to move faster while wading in shallow water, to the point of ignoring shallow water penalties at higher ranks
- every 10 ranks should give you +1 to reflex saves while under water

Heal / Repair
- should increase the healing received from drinking potions/oils by 1% per rank

[axel15810]

It doesn't seem to do anything for most knockdowns. They should redo the skill. It should probably affect all knockdowns.

[J1NG]

It doesn't seem to do anything for most knockdowns. They should redo the skill. It should probably affect all knockdowns.

It's probably because the amount of Balance skill needed to get the minimum time before a bring yourself back up animation occurs is very low (Probably low enough that 10 Epic levels is enough to let anyone get a get up check at the same time). Also much of the old Knockdown was changed to the current ones, where it's a Stat check or a Reflex check. So its uses are heavily limited now.

J1NG

[caberonia]

with plenty of chars with very low balance in epics I can say yes.. spend 5 mins on your back while the party clears that room, the next room and 3 rooms over and you quickly realize how useful it is. That being said i'm all for increasing it to do more than just reducing the time you lie prone after being knocked down.

[Mindos]

You know the Devs are gonna make us all get debuffed and get negative balance values now right? For the next 5 years we will all be building balance +9000 builds to compensate. Way to go! :p

[kmoustakas]

You know the Devs are gonna make us all get debuffed and get negative balance values now right? For the next 5 years we will all be building balance +9000 builds to compensate. Way to go! :p

There's a balance check for standing up for cometfall

[caberonia]

There's a balance check for standing up for cometfall

There's a balance check pretty much any time your knocked prone. The lower your balance the longer you sit on your back being useless. Balance doesn't prevent you from falling as much as determines how long you're on the ground. Str or Dex check to see if you get knocked down.. balance to get up. Low enough balance can be frustrating as i pointed out earlier when your still on your back and your party has cleared out half the dungeon in the mean time.

This is what was meant by Tanking on your back. Since with low balance a single knock down can lead to a minute or more of you laying there prone. I think the confusion is people seem to think balance should or does in any way effect the original knockdown.. which it does not (Titan withstanding). It reduces the time it takes to get back up from being knocked down. AFAIK every knock down effect (other than Mind based such as Command) has a balance check once your prone to see how fast you get back up. The more you fail the more you lay there.

[kanordog]

It reduces the time it takes to get back up from being knocked down. AFAIK every knock down effect (other than Mind based such as Command) has a balance check once your prone to see how fast you get back up. The more you fail the more you lay there.

Wiki also says so but according to the original post it is not WAI at the moment:


I was playing a character with 107 balance in KT and standing next to a character with 23 balance. We both got knocked down from a tail-swipe. We both stood up. I was laughing at the perfectly unrealistic synchronized identical movements ... until I realized that my character should have stood up MUCH quicker.


Unless Devs skyrocketed the balance checks to the 130`s in which case a 23 or a 107 is the same. So practically balance is useless (107 is a pretty high numeber).

[Matuse]

Unless Devs skyrocketed the balance checks to the 130`s in which case a 23 or a 107 is the same. So practically balance is useless (107 is a pretty high numeber).

Or...the DC for this particular balance check was 30, and the person with the 23 base rolled a 7+, and they both stood up at the same time.

107 is overkill, but balance is hardly a useless skill.

[TitusOvid]

Balance is one of the few skills that needs to be redone.

Balance
- should reduce the distance you are knocked back (etc, giants and air elementals)
- should reduce the slow effect from slippery surfaces

Swim
- should allow you to move faster while wading in shallow water, to the point of ignoring shallow water penalties at higher ranks
- every 10 ranks should give you +1 to reflex saves while under water

Heal / Repair
- should increase the healing received from drinking potions/oils by 1% per rank

I can see Balance for sure, Swim the 1st point but why Heal/Repair?

Cheers,
Titus.

[LurkingVeteran]

The DC for most knockdown balance checks used to be 10. Not sure if this has changed, but if you are in heavy armor it may still take some investment. Getting stuck on the ground is a death sentence.

To save against the initial knockdown itself you used to do an opposed str or dex check. Not entirely sure if this is still the case or how much mobs have now.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I've read that the balance skill decreases the time spent on the ground after you're tripped or knocked down. This isn't true. I was playing a character with 107 balance in KT and standing next to a character with 23 balance. We both got knocked down from a tail-swipe. We both stood up.

Please, play the same scenery through with a level 4 character and a balance value of 3. PLEASE !!!

[caberonia]

Wiki also says so but according to the original post it is not WAI at the moment:




Unless Devs skyrocketed the balance checks to the 130`s in which case a 23 or a 107 is the same. So practically balance is useless (107 is a pretty high numeber).

It is more likely IMO that it's an issue inherent to KT than anything. But i could be wrong. More than happy to see a dev check into it. Also a low score doesn't mean an instant fail.. maybe the 23 got super lucky on the roll?

[Bjond]

Please, play the same scenery through with a level 4 character and a balance value of 3. PLEASE !!!

What I want to know is why would that situation occur? Everything dies so fast you don't take damage or need to be DC checked even when running solo @ R1.

Heh. If all heroic play was removed from the game, I'd be VERY happy. It's so ridiculously easy that there's no point in replaying heroics baring one nostalgia trip when making a new character. That the game meta requires 3x trips at a minimum and more if you want an optimal build is already at least 2x too many.


107 is overkill, but balance is hardly a useless skill.


issue inherent to KT [..] maybe the 23 got super lucky on the roll?

My 107 char was a DEX-based thrower with tons of extra skill points. Normally, I don't play DEX and don't invest in balance and I've never had an issue with being "floor-locked" due to excessive KDs. Sure, I've had chars die due to being tripped and swarmed -- usually driders in underdark, but it's ultra rare. My thrower invested in balance to see if it mattered and from what I can tell balance does absolutely nothing. You do not get up faster. You do not resist ANY form of KD or Trip at a higher rate than without it.

BTW, yeah, KT is a bad test primarily because it's quite possible the KD is a scripted thing that outright ignores checks and always floors you for a set time regardless of skill because "omg, it's a dragon!" and SSG often ignores the rules for boss fights.

That last bit really irks me. They ignore checks and immunities whenever they please for ridiculous reasons. If you're immune, THAT EFFECT CAN NEVER HAPPEN. No exceptions. No "oh, the dragon's skimpy attire was obvious invitation." NO MEAN NO. NONE. ZERO.

That's just a general rant about how they use the word "immune" in game and has little to do with the "balance" skill. Really, it's a very low priority issue. My feelings on seeing that synchronized stand-up was more amusement and chagrin. Here we go again -- just another outright documentation lie from SSG to add to the pile.

If we want to talk about how it should work, IMHO the character should never just lie there even with zero skill. It should always *try* to get up right away. Maybe stage the anims. Roll over to hands/knees + slow climb, 3-point aikido/jujitsu stand, and kip-up .. maybe with extra flopping back down if you truly have ultra low skill and the anims need to be extended to match your character's klutzy nature. I would permit ultra slow moving, too (ideally as a roll). Being able to move even a little makes the player feel in control of the character and that increases immersion. Game-wise, the char should still count as "prone" for the duration.

Anims asside, skill should scale the stand-up time linearly and rapidly to the point where your character just kips up instantly after any type of KD.

There's years of higher priority issues to tackle. I'm not advocating spending resources on this one. It's just something to note.

[Tilomere]

Anims asside, skill should scale the stand-up time linearly and rapidly to the point where your character just kips up instantly after any type of KD.

Mobs will get up instantly then. They have redonkulous stats and skills. The 100+ trip DCs means enemy mobs can have 100+ dex modifiers, which means their balance skills can be 100+ as well.

To my knowledge, balance works against some giant stomp knockdowns, dragon knockdowns or buffets, a few trap effects, cometfall, and improved trip. Balance caps at 15 if my memory is serving me right for the speed at which one gets up.

When I started playing DDO F2P I made a dwarf fighter/cleric in plate with a shield. It made it to level 4 before it met a pack of dogs and never got up. That's how I learned about balance, and I promptly deleted the character. DDO learning curve is brutal.

[kanordog]

It is more likely IMO that it's an issue inherent to KT than anything. But i could be wrong. More than happy to see a dev check into it. Also a low score doesn't mean an instant fail.. maybe the 23 got super lucky on the roll?

This is a possibility. Maybe it is a uniformally timed KD regardless of balance skill.



Or...the DC for this particular balance check was 30, and the person with the 23 base rolled a 7+, and they both stood up at the same time.

107 is overkill, but balance is hardly a useless skill.

Hahaha, you can tell who is a glass half empty guy here. I did not even think about that both could have had a successful roll...


The DC for most knockdown balance checks used to be 10. Not sure if this has changed, but if you are in heavy armor it may still take some investment. Getting stuck on the ground is a death sentence.



I do put my leftover skillpoints into balance and I don't think this habit will change.

[cdbd3rd]

....

I do put my leftover skillpoints into balance and I don't think this habit will change.


Not Swim like the rest of us? So very counter-culture! :p

[caberonia]

BTW, yeah, KT is a bad test primarily because it's quite possible the KD is a scripted thing that outright ignores checks and always floors you for a set time regardless of skill because "omg, it's a dragon!" and SSG often ignores the rules for boss fights.

That last bit really irks me. They ignore checks and immunities whenever they please for ridiculous reasons. If you're immune, THAT EFFECT CAN NEVER HAPPEN. No exceptions. No "oh, the dragon's skimpy attire was obvious invitation." NO MEAN NO. NONE. ZERO.


This particular Issue is pretty far up there in my complaints of DDO.. sweeping immunities and ignoring rules etc. Just below my number one complaint but tied to it with player spells.. you mix these 2 together enough that it is truly infuriating. Can I please cast slow(or any other Debuff spell) on that boss to reduce DPS to the tank? No because 99% of all bosses are somehow inherently immune to 99% of debuffs and debuffing isn't even a playstyle in DDo because of it.

Inherent immunities and Boss/mob abilities that ignore every other rule "just because" the dev team doesn't know how to make things challenging without them is just one of the saddest realizations one can have coming from DnD to DDO.

You have hundreds of spells and abilities to use against bosses be creative * except we have made them immune to 99% of them so by creative we mean you have to kill them the exact way we decided you should

The worst part is.. so many of these issues are connected to other issues that they have a web of "broken" things all due to the logic of "because devs said so". It was pretty bad pre MotU but once they decided to bork up poison etc all real rules went out the window and every mobs abilities has to be looked at individually. Just because it's a poison attack or a knock down attack doesn't mean it actually follows the rules of those types of attacks that it SHOULD.

and for the second time today i'm going to shut up before this becomes one of my Major diatribes.