New Classic Pack with the Bow Universal Enhancement Tree a.k.a. Horizon Walker

[stengdog123]

So yesterday, at appx. the 20:00 min mark of Cordo's chat with Sev on the stream, he talks about the new Bow Universal Enhancement Tree coming out in late Summer/early Fall 2021 with the tentative name of "Horizon Walker." He also said this would be coupled with the new classic pack that will be coming out (which was already mentioned with the Daybreak Games sale announcement). Sev also said he couldn't "formally" announce what the next classic pack will be by name, modules, etc., but he assured us that "It will be really cool though (and have multiple quests)"

SO, for all the old school TSR players (like me) out here, what could this new pack be, considering that it is being coupled with the Bow Universal Enhancement Tree. Let the speculation commence!

Using what I know about old school D&D lore in 3E, and my handy-dandy sourcebooks, a "Horizon Walker" was a bow-based Ranger Prestige Class. It's highlights are:

The path of the horizon walker was one taken by adventurers whose goals were to explore and map out the plethora of environments within and even beyond the Prime (Material Plane). Those explorers who had an irresistible sense of curiosity and wanderlust to travel took on the path in order to gain an innate connection to their surroundings, whatever those surroundings might be. As horizon walkers became more experienced, they treated their surroundings as part of themselves, which gave them special abilities and senses to protect them from the dangers of incessant travel.

Few things surprised a horizon walker, for there was little that hadn't already been experienced by such an individual. The only thing that truly piqued a horizon walker's interest was the truly unknown, which unfortunately became harder and harder to find for an experienced seeker of the unknown and untraveled. This knowledge aided those who would seek a horizon walker's wisdom, for the horizon walker was an unsurpassed guide and vanguard, which could be the single difference between life and death in the woods of the Feywild or the wastes of the demon-infested Abyss.

Though the majority of horizon walkers had some training as rangers, many also had a degree of experience as bards, barbarians, or even druids. Bards were attracted to the path as keepers of forgotten lore and natural wanderers, and barbarians were attracted by a similar pull. Those few druids who took up the role of a horizon walker were also drawn by a sense of wanderlust, though their commitment to the natural world and its defense made their numbers relatively few. Most horizon walkers, regardless of their origins, saw one another as a kind of loose brotherhood, a bound network of warriors who pushed the limits of what was unknown and what had been discovered.

So difficult was the path of a horizon walker that most who choose it already had a large degree of expertise about the local geography of their world, as well as a capacity for punishment. Though horizon walkers drew initially from physical ability and personal training, adherents to the path often gained supernatural abilities as a result of their constant exposure to harsh environments. At its most basic level, this allowed horizon walkers an increased degree of coordination early on, enabling them to act with greater swiftness. For instance, horizon walkers who had traveled the Shadowfell gained the ability to see in the dark, if they did not possess it already, and were generally more conscious of their environment.

In a similar manner, horizon walkers became extremely hardy as a result of their travels along the transitive Astral Sea, recovering from wounds more quickly and becoming overall more difficult for their enemies to finish off. Some horizon walkers also gained a particular resilience against the material that made up a plane, making them more likely to survive hazards composed of this material.

Therefore, it often wasn't very long before horizon walkers eschewed the exploits used by their predecessors and instead chose to use spells charged with arcane power drawn from the planes. Most of these spells had a distinctively planar flavor, such as fey strider, which allowed a horizon walker to teleport from one location to another. Likewise, elemental chaos smite allowed a horizon walker to charge his or her weapon with elemental energy of any kind.

Rangers that chose this path were granted, in addition to those abilities, access to a number of spells, including protection from evil, misty step (blur), haste, banishment (smite), and teleport.

With this build/character archetype in mind it sounds like this could be a cool bow-centric tree that borrows some from the already existing Arcane Archer line, the new Feydark Illusionist tree, and possibly the Harper Agent tree, but with a constitution and/or dexterity focus. What does this, however, tell us about what the new (classic) pack could be?

My immediate thought screams something from PLANESCAPE to me and one module in particular... Tales from the Infinite Staircase, described below:

Stretching to every plane imaginable, the Infinite Staircase is one of the best-kept secrets of planar travel in the multiverse. Watched over by the mysterious lillendi (think harpies with fish/mermaid tails), the Staircase stretches in all directions, bending back upon itself to form the ultimate three-dimensional maze – and every landing where the Staircase stops, a doorway to a new planar location awaits the traveler.

The chaotic morass of energy and matter filling Limbo holds a dark secret – the same secret found in the depths of Baator, in an underground formian (ant-men) hive-city on Arcadia, and in a battle-torn githyanki fortress on the Astral Plane. Using the Infinite Staircase, a group of plane walkers (i.e. substitute Horizon Walkers here) must travel to these far-flung locations, and elsewhere, to learn of a new threat to the planes – and stop it. Exploring the Staircase itself can be dangerous, particularly when it's ravaged by a barmy fiend and even crazier sorceress.

Tales from the Infinite Staircase features eight separate but linked adventures presented in a new format. The adventures can be played in any order, yet each scenario impacts upon and changes those played after it. Further, the PCs can return to the original scenario locations and find that the conditions have changed so more adventuring is possible. Each of the eight adventures can also be played separately, i.e. no need for flagging and/or a raid to be included.

Also, if SSG really wants to take some of my money, this could be coupled with another classic which is often also played in conjunction, For Duty & Deity...

For Duty & Deity is a Forgotten Realms adventure that was published in 1998 by TSR (now Wizards of the Coast). It was designed for characters of levels 10-12. It's hook is:

For over a decade, mystery has surrounded the fate of the lost goddess of trade and wealth, Waukeen. The Golden Lady disappeared during the Time of Troubles and has not been heard from since. In the Year of the Tankard (1370 DR), a young prophet suffers from disturbing, divine visions that reveal a beautiful, golden-tressed woman imprisoned on a far plane of existence by some great evil.

The leader of Waukeen's church believes that these visions mean Waukeen is alive but trapped in the deadly and dangerous Abyss. Adventurers dedicate themselves to peeling back the mystery of the Golden Lady's fate. Their route takes them to the plane-spanning Infinite Staircase and beyond, to the Abyss, the home of the demonic tanar'ri (i.e. your basic, run-of-the-mill demon lords). The heroes must brave the dangers of the Abyss and rescue the lost goddess from the clutches of one of the most brilliant and dangerous of all Abyssal lords.

This stand-alone adventure was developed in concert with the PLANESCAPE adventure anthology Tales from the Infinite Staircase. They can be played separately. However, the guidelines within both allow a Dungeon Master to use either product as a subplot for the other, creating new opportunities for player characters and extending the opportunities for adventure.

[Amorais]

I'd be cautious of "classic" dungeons in DDO. They may work great in paper and pen but when converted to an MMO they are awful (Temple of Elemental Evil I'm looking at you). White Plume Mountain is probably the best of the current ones, at least the most faithful.

I'd be stoked if they did S3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks but I think that would be a hell of a lot of work!

[Cernunan]

I think the obscure Tales from the Infinite Staircase would be quite a stretch outside of an expansion, and such a resource investment it is highly unlikely, considering they want to start work on Isle of Dread which will be insanely time consuming. So I highly doubt that obscure work will be the next.

I would think the choices could be either the Secrets of Saltmarch series, or Desert of Desolation series, both of which have easily adapted assets already in the game, so investment would be minimal work

[stengdog123]

I would think the choices could be either the Secrets of Saltmarsh series, or Desert of Desolation series, both of which have easily adapted assets already in the game, so investment would be minimal work.

The Saltmarsh Trilogy was my second thought, actually. The only thing that held me back from making it the first choice was because of the inclusion of the Universal Bow Enhancement Tree with the new pack, and it's (tentative) name of Horizon Walker. Also, I thought Saltmarsh may be a little too low of a level, considering the last two packs, The Keep on the Borderlands and The Lost Gatekeepers - as well as the Fables of the Feywild expansion, fit into the same level range as the Saltmarsh Trilogy.

I think the lizardmen would be cool, but to be honest, at least IMO, I don't want, nor need to see any more sahuagin in DDO.

The Saltmarsh Trilogy is for levels 1-5. The series scores big-time as thinking-players’ modules, since things aren’t what they seem until the end. The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh is the fan favorite: a haunted house that’s not really haunted, and PCs ultimately become policemen when they find out that smugglers, not ghosts, reside on the cliff. It’s the build up to that realization that makes the module so exciting. DM’s can instill a lot of fear if they know what they’re doing, and keep players believing the supernatural is at large with the blinking lights, ghastly shrieks, and nauseating carrion. On top of this, the assassin plant in the upstairs bedroom has loads of potential, and if used subtly, can really sow confusion or even discord among the players.

Danger at Dunwater may be less scary than the house on the cliff, but it’s more dangerous since it invites bloodshed when diplomacy is needed. It turns out that a colony of lizardmen have been arming themselves, but not to attack Saltmarsh or any human settlement, but rather to take back their own fortress from invading sahuagin, who are the true threat to humanity. It’s a tricky business. Even PCs who reach a negotiating stage will more than likely have killed at least some lizard men before piecing clues together. Some claim that Danger at Dunwater doesn’t measure up to the previous module, or that it’s a cool dungeon crawl wasted on pacifist strategies, but neither is true and ignores that all but the most shrewd PCs will believe the lizardmen to be the evil threat until they proceed far enough through the dungeon to piece clues together.

The Final Enemy is the straightforward module and incredibly deadly. Underwater breathing is required in two-thirds of this dungeon, and woe to the fools who don’t swiftly kill any sahuagin before they can raise an alarm. But PCs aren’t supposed to seek out any combat, far less clear the dungeon (which would be a suicide mission). Players are only supposed to recon the three levels and report back to Saltmarsh officials who will launch war themselves. That’s easier said than done, for example in the temple on the middle level, where sahuagin priestesses sacrifice young infants to a shark. These are the hatchlings who don’t measure up to the rigorous physical standards of the sahuagin race, and the ritual on display is enough to sicken all good-aligned characters who in most cases won’t be able to stop themselves from intervening. Taken together, the Saltmarsh trilogy is a great example of an extended adventure that draws on players’ resources in unexpected ways.

[brian14]

I'd be cautious of "classic" dungeons in DDO. They may work great in paper and pen but when converted to an MMO they are awful (Temple of Elemental Evil I'm looking at you). White Plume Mountain is probably the best of the current ones, at least the most faithful.

I'd be stoked if they did S3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks but I think that would be a hell of a lot of work!

What is so awful about Temple of Elemental Evil? I rather like it; indeed it is one of very few quests in DDO which are well worth exploring without actually completing, almost as if it were a wilderness area. The only things bad about it IMO are the absurdly difficult end fight on Heroic setting, and the Heroic level range -- it should have been about level 12 instead of 7. White Plume Mountain, OTOH is a pretty straightforward quest -- if it were not the rework of a classic module, it would be nothing special.

[stengdog123]

I'd be cautious of "classic" dungeons in DDO. They may work great in paper and pen but when converted to an MMO they are awful (Temple of Elemental Evil, I'm looking at you). White Plume Mountain is probably the best of the current ones, at least the most faithful.

I'd be stoked if they did S3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks but I think that would be a hell of a lot of work!

I agree that S3 would require an extreme amount of work, however, some of the Sharn Expansion assets would be available for re-use/re-color and they could substitute warforged for the robots. IDK how they would work that quirky card system into the quest(s) however.

As far as we know, Sev just said another "classic" pack was coming, and that could be anything from D&D/WoTC history. Going with the "assets" on hand model, I could also easily see the devs bringing in either Queen of the Spiders or Red Hand of Doom (Tiamat, anybody?) as the new pack as well...

Queen of the Spiders was an adventure module published by TSR in 1986 and is a compilation of seven previous related modules, often referred to as a "supermodule." Together, the seven adventures form an integrated campaign that begins in the World of Greyhawk, continues underground into the Underdark, and concludes in the Demonweb Pits, the abyssal lair of the demonic goddess Lolth. The campaign was originally intended for characters of levels 8 - 14 (a really good range) for Normal, Hard, & Elite.

Basically the story is that giants have been raiding civilized lands in increasing numbers. The players are called upon to combat the giants and to investigate the giants' reasons for invading and the strength of their forces.

The first module, Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, takes place in a gigantic wooden fort populated by hill giants and ogres. Here, the players uncover evidence of an alliance with other types of giants, as well as some mysterious letters from those behind the scenes.

In the second module, Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, the action moves north to colder lands, where the setting is a system of caves clustered around a deep and narrow chasm in glacial ice. Here, the protagonists encounter frost giants, yeti and winter wolves, among other monsters.

The third module, Hall of the Fire Giant King, is set in a volcanic region where King Snurre has assembled a horde of fire giants, trolls and hell hounds. A secret passage from this module leads deep into the earth, where the adventurers discover the true nature of the force behind the raids – the drow in the service of Lolth, the demoness.

The fourth module, Descent into the Depths of the Earth, is on a larger scale than the others, with a map covering a deep underground region, later known as the Underdark. In the Underdark, there are many unique monsters previously unknown to surface adventurers, including the drow, which had been considered mythical. Troglodytes, jermlaine and svirfneblin (deep gnomes) made their first appearances in D&D literature in this module.

In the next module, Shrine of the Kuo-Toa, the adventurers explore a subterranean complex populated by the Kuo-toa, a race of fish-frog monsters in the service of the lobster goddess Blibdoolpoolp.

Players next make their way to the Vault of the Drow, a deep subterranean eldritch land in a huge cyst deep under the earth.

The adventure is completed with Queen of the Demonweb Pits. It takes place primarily in the eponymous Demonweb Pits, the 66th level of the Abyss.

On the other hand (no pun intended), Red Hand of Doom is a big module for the 3.5 version of D&D. It was designed as a generic 3.5 D&D adventure that can be dropped into any campaign world. Instructions are given in the first pages of the module on where to place it in the worlds of Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms, and Eberron (the three primary campaign settings of D&D at the time of release).

The adventure was written for characters of experience levels six to twelve, but the designers stated that it was targeted to levels five to eleven (again a really good range for Normal, Hard, and Elite). The adventure was expected to take players weeks, or even months, to complete, (i.e. meaning there is a lot of content/side quests available here). The campaign was written well enough that players will find it easy enough to continue progressing along the main story. There are a few side quests available but none of those inclusions draw players too far away from the main plot or keep them away too long. The adventure was pretty well laid out and was broken into Acts like a play (I think there are 5 acts/quests in total).

Basically, the plot of Red Hand of Doom revolved around a group of adventurers who have entered the Elsir Vale, a thinly populated frontier region. The players discover a massive hobgoblin horde that is fanatically devoted to the dark goddess Tiamat and are led by the charismatic dragon-born warlord Azarr Kul. PCs are tasked with stopping the horde, and then following up to see what stirred the horde up in the first place. Basically, to stop the horde, players have to muster the inhabitants of the Vale, battle mobs of hobgoblins, some giants and dragons, and defeat an overwhelming enemy.

The module has been generally well received, with players/reviewers rating it as one of the best adventures in many years. In terms of content and quality, most compared it favorably and ranked it in their Top 10 lists with both The Temple of Elemental Evil and The Keep on the Borderlands.

[Chai]

Why bow tree though. Horizon walker is not exclusively bow or even ranged. It is just because bows need help in DDO?

[fatherpirate]

Whatever it is, likely to be a classic GENERIC set.
Nothing that would qualify as it's own campaign setting

so..... what's left?

Tomb of Horror?
Desert Of Desolation?
The Sinister Secret Of Saltmarsh?
Castle Amber?
Expedition To The Barrier Peaks?
The Isle Of Dread (not the one but added for completeness)
The Sunless Citadel?

or something else?

If I had to guess - Tomb of Horror

[Chai]

Just make people planes hop to hunt down a nemesis. They could get 3-5 different classic modules out of this.

[FlavoredSoul]

What is so awful about Temple of Elemental Evil? I rather like it; indeed it is one of very few quests in DDO which are well worth exploring without actually completing, almost as if it were a wilderness area. The only things bad about it IMO are the absurdly difficult end fight on Heroic setting, and the Heroic level range -- it should have been about level 12 instead of 7. White Plume Mountain, OTOH is a pretty straightforward quest -- if it were not the rework of a classic module, it would be nothing special.

I actually kinda enjoy TOEE pt1, but recognize why people don't. It's main flaws being it's enemy placement boils down to hordes of mobs every 20 paces in hallways. TOEE was the start of this era of quest design which is something a lot of people hold against it, And then Slavelords and everything after took the TOEE mob problem and made it even worse.

TOEE pt2 is a complete disaster though, it takes the hordes of mobs in hallways of TOEE pt1 and then makes you hunt through elemental nodes that are about twice as big asthey need to be for randomly placed objects. Then the endfight which is way overtuned for it's level especially in heroics, having actual mechanics in a non-raid is something I actually like though, but Slavelords pt3 does it a lot better than TOEE pt2.


Anyways in terms of classic modules Haunted Halls is the greatest, with WPM being a close second both have a huge variety of things to do while not being total slogs like slavelords or TOEE.

[fatherpirate]

I think the dungeon floorplans being too large are at least in part caused by player cameras.
Most MMOs have oversized indoor areas to accommodate the fact that players use a behind the character camera view.

If you don't make them oversized, the players camera will be stuck behind walls and such

STO has been criticized for having unrealistically large transporter rooms, the developers state
that they wish they could make them smaller but it would mess up player's camera view.

So unless you have a dedicated 1st person view game, the interiors will be supersized.

[Sho-sa]

I don't think being overly faithful to a level range is an impediment to a classic module selection. Look at how radically they upped the difficulty level on the Slavers series.

[Xgya]

I just hope they either make Horizon Walker a Ranger tree, or make bow-using Rangers competitive WITHOUT needing the tree, letting people that aren't Rangers get almost up to Ranger level when using a bow and this new tree.

[fatherpirate]

I think they stated up front that it was a universal tree, so it is not a ranger tree.

[stengdog123]

I think they stated up front that it was a universal tree, so it is not a ranger tree.

It will be a Universal Tree for bow/ranged centric players, definitely not a new ranger tree. I just think the proposed Horizon Walker theme would lend itself better to a ranger-type character, is all.

Didn't want to confuse anybody :o

[kmoustakas]

So yesterday, at appx. the 20:00 min mark of Cordo's chat with Sev on the stream, he talks about the new Bow Universal Enhancement Tree coming out in late Summer/early Fall 2021 with the tentative name of "Horizon Walker." He also said this would be coupled with the new classic pack that will be coming out (which was already mentioned with the Daybreak Games sale announcement). Sev also said he couldn't "formally" announce what the next classic pack will be by name, modules, etc., but he assured us that "It will be really cool though (and have multiple quests)"

SO, for all the old school TSR players (like me) out here, what could this new pack be, considering that it is being coupled with the Bow Universal Enhancement Tree. Let the speculation commence!

Using what I know about old school D&D lore in 3E, and my handy-dandy sourcebooks, a "Horizon Walker" was a bow-based Ranger Prestige Class. It's highlights are:

The path of the horizon walker was one taken by adventurers whose goals were to explore and map out the plethora of environments within and even beyond the Prime (Material Plane). Those explorers who had an irresistible sense of curiosity and wanderlust to travel took on the path in order to gain an innate connection to their surroundings, whatever those surroundings might be. As horizon walkers became more experienced, they treated their surroundings as part of themselves, which gave them special abilities and senses to protect them from the dangers of incessant travel.

Few things surprised a horizon walker, for there was little that hadn't already been experienced by such an individual. The only thing that truly piqued a horizon walker's interest was the truly unknown, which unfortunately became harder and harder to find for an experienced seeker of the unknown and untraveled. This knowledge aided those who would seek a horizon walker's wisdom, for the horizon walker was an unsurpassed guide and vanguard, which could be the single difference between life and death in the woods of the Feywild or the wastes of the demon-infested Abyss.

Though the majority of horizon walkers had some training as rangers, many also had a degree of experience as bards, barbarians, or even druids. Bards were attracted to the path as keepers of forgotten lore and natural wanderers, and barbarians were attracted by a similar pull. Those few druids who took up the role of a horizon walker were also drawn by a sense of wanderlust, though their commitment to the natural world and its defense made their numbers relatively few. Most horizon walkers, regardless of their origins, saw one another as a kind of loose brotherhood, a bound network of warriors who pushed the limits of what was unknown and what had been discovered.

So difficult was the path of a horizon walker that most who choose it already had a large degree of expertise about the local geography of their world, as well as a capacity for punishment. Though horizon walkers drew initially from physical ability and personal training, adherents to the path often gained supernatural abilities as a result of their constant exposure to harsh environments. At its most basic level, this allowed horizon walkers an increased degree of coordination early on, enabling them to act with greater swiftness. For instance, horizon walkers who had traveled the Shadowfell gained the ability to see in the dark, if they did not possess it already, and were generally more conscious of their environment.

In a similar manner, horizon walkers became extremely hardy as a result of their travels along the transitive Astral Sea, recovering from wounds more quickly and becoming overall more difficult for their enemies to finish off. Some horizon walkers also gained a particular resilience against the material that made up a plane, making them more likely to survive hazards composed of this material.

Therefore, it often wasn't very long before horizon walkers eschewed the exploits used by their predecessors and instead chose to use spells charged with arcane power drawn from the planes. Most of these spells had a distinctively planar flavor, such as fey strider, which allowed a horizon walker to teleport from one location to another. Likewise, elemental chaos smite allowed a horizon walker to charge his or her weapon with elemental energy of any kind.

Rangers that chose this path were granted, in addition to those abilities, access to a number of spells, including protection from evil, misty step (blur), haste, banishment (smite), and teleport.

With this build/character archetype in mind it sounds like this could be a cool bow-centric tree that borrows some from the already existing Arcane Archer line, the new Feydark Illusionist tree, and possibly the Harper Agent tree, but with a constitution and/or dexterity focus. What does this, however, tell us about what the new (classic) pack could be?

My immediate thought screams something from PLANESCAPE to me and one module in particular... Tales from the Infinite Staircase, described below:

Stretching to every plane imaginable, the Infinite Staircase is one of the best-kept secrets of planar travel in the multiverse. Watched over by the mysterious lillendi (think harpies with fish/mermaid tails), the Staircase stretches in all directions, bending back upon itself to form the ultimate three-dimensional maze – and every landing where the Staircase stops, a doorway to a new planar location awaits the traveler.

The chaotic morass of energy and matter filling Limbo holds a dark secret – the same secret found in the depths of Baator, in an underground formian (ant-men) hive-city on Arcadia, and in a battle-torn githyanki fortress on the Astral Plane. Using the Infinite Staircase, a group of plane walkers (i.e. substitute Horizon Walkers here) must travel to these far-flung locations, and elsewhere, to learn of a new threat to the planes – and stop it. Exploring the Staircase itself can be dangerous, particularly when it's ravaged by a barmy fiend and even crazier sorceress.

Tales from the Infinite Staircase features eight separate but linked adventures presented in a new format. The adventures can be played in any order, yet each scenario impacts upon and changes those played after it. Further, the PCs can return to the original scenario locations and find that the conditions have changed so more adventuring is possible. Each of the eight adventures can also be played separately, i.e. no need for flagging and/or a raid to be included.

Also, if SSG really wants to take some of my money, this could be coupled with another classic which is often also played in conjunction, For Duty & Deity...

For Duty & Deity is a Forgotten Realms adventure that was published in 1998 by TSR (now Wizards of the Coast). It was designed for characters of levels 10-12. It's hook is:

For over a decade, mystery has surrounded the fate of the lost goddess of trade and wealth, Waukeen. The Golden Lady disappeared during the Time of Troubles and has not been heard from since. In the Year of the Tankard (1370 DR), a young prophet suffers from disturbing, divine visions that reveal a beautiful, golden-tressed woman imprisoned on a far plane of existence by some great evil.

The leader of Waukeen's church believes that these visions mean Waukeen is alive but trapped in the deadly and dangerous Abyss. Adventurers dedicate themselves to peeling back the mystery of the Golden Lady's fate. Their route takes them to the plane-spanning Infinite Staircase and beyond, to the Abyss, the home of the demonic tanar'ri (i.e. your basic, run-of-the-mill demon lords). The heroes must brave the dangers of the Abyss and rescue the lost goddess from the clutches of one of the most brilliant and dangerous of all Abyssal lords.

This stand-alone adventure was developed in concert with the PLANESCAPE adventure anthology Tales from the Infinite Staircase. They can be played separately. However, the guidelines within both allow a Dungeon Master to use either product as a subplot for the other, creating new opportunities for player characters and extending the opportunities for adventure.

Considering I'm working on a Githzerai horizon walker for 5e, this all sounds very cool to me.

[stengdog123]

Whatever it is, likely to be a classic GENERIC set.
Nothing that would qualify as it's own campaign setting

So..... What's left?

Tomb of Horrors
Desert Of Desolation
The Sinister Secret Of Saltmarsh
Castle Amber
Expedition To The Barrier Peaks
The Isle Of Dread (not the one but added for completeness)
The Sunless Citadel

Or something else?

If I had to guess - Tomb of Horror

You forgot one... And I'm not trying to argue against my own OP here, because my wish is to see something from Planescape next. But, since Sev specifically said yesterday that Isle of Dread was going to be an expansion, I think S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth is where we are going. It kind of makes sense for a few reasons...

The module outlines that there is a treasure in the Yatil Mountains. The player(s) must investigate rumors of a lost treasure that scores of adventurers have perished attempting to find. The treasure is a remnant of the wealth amassed by the archmage Iggwilv a.k.a. Tasha (from the new WotC book Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, i.e. MARKETING), former ruler of some realm (in Greyhawk I believe), prior to her presumed death at the hands of the demon Graz'zt (the mysterious stranger in the Feywild Expansion?), whom she had "imprisoned and forced into servitude."

Players must first traverse a wilderness area (like Keep on the Borderlands) with 20 numbered encounters before arriving at the actual caverns. The encounters have names such as "Border Patrol" (encounter 1) and "Hill Giants" (encounter 10).

After the wilderness are two side encounters/quests: the "Gnome Vale," which includes a map for their lair, and "The Craggy Dells," where humans and orcs are capturing hippogriffs to sell.

Finally, the player characters reach the caverns. They consist of the "Lesser Caverns" with 22 encounters (part 1), and the "Greater Caverns" with 20 encounters (part 2), each with its own map.

The lesser caverns include encounters such as "Stinking Cave" (encounter 5) which contains four trolls and "Underground Lake" (encounter 14).

The greater caverns include encounters such as "Uneven-Floored Cavern" (encounter 5) where the player characters face an umber hulk and "Canyon of Centaurs" (encounter 9). The 20th and final encounter is titled "The Inner Sphere." Here, a "woman sleeps on an alabaster slab." She is "armored from toe to neck in gold chased plate mail." The woman is actually Drelnza, a fighter/vampire and the daughter of Iggwilv. After defeating Drelnza, the players are rewarded with treasure, and the adventure ends. Oh, and did I forget to mention that one of the suggested end quest rewards in the module is a, get this, Magical Flying Carpet - something Sev specifically mentioned as what would most likely be the next type of mount coming to DDO.

This seems like it would be a good buy for say 995 DDO points (like Keep on the Borderlands and White Plume Mountain), you could get access to a new bow-based Universal Enhancement Tree (or sold separately with cosmetics like White Plume Mountain or Keep on the Borderlands was in a bonus items package), a wilderness area, and at least 4 new quests (counting the two side quests and the two main ones), and maybe include the sequel to Tsojcanth, The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun as well to bring it up to 5 quests.

Seems almost too logical to me...

[janave]

I just hope they either make Horizon Walker a Ranger tree, or make bow-using Rangers competitive WITHOUT needing the tree, letting people that aren't Rangers get almost up to Ranger level when using a bow and this new tree.

I am reading up on the source, to me it looks like direct adoption with current DDO effects would make HW mostly redundant by late heroic levels. I doubt we get anything close to "teleportation", due to player creativity and general limitation of 3D landscapes. It will likely be one of the other fast travel options, Rangers may already get sprint boost from Tempest, also anyone with Falconer.

Detect Portal 3rd, sounds interesting but would need a full sweep of content revamps to make use of a typical "divination anchor" type effect. Dont believe that sort of manual work would be done to cater to 1 specific build trick.

Planar Warrior 3rd, will most likely be fully implemented, bit of magic dps, AA already gives better most likely.

Ethereal Step 7th, will likely be "just SLA Ghostly"

Distant Strike 11th, probably some short duration improved IPS and movement boost? This one could be also realized only by the name as an activated attack with large accuracy bonus or no PBS range limit, or something along that.

Spectral Defense 15th, this is again most likely more incorporeal defense, maybe the ethereal thingy from Magister, so basically defense.


Spells:
3rd Protection from Evil and Good ( Defense, loot, scrolls)
5th Misty Step ( possibly the limited leap-like, like Warlock)
9th Haste ( Loot, buffs, epic feat)
13th Banishment ( If lucky SLA and the DC formula will be adjusted)
17th Teleportation Circle ( yeah right, a Dimension Door maybe)


I really like the concept personally, DDO will have another 20 or so enhancement slots to fill/work with, some of those will be ability selectors (2), maybe weapon focus line (4-5), action boost (1), skill training (1-2), various misc/utility fillers.


I think Ranger itself wont be direct competition, AA and more importantly Inquisitive will be compared to tho. Thematically should have synergy with AA, so also Rangers who get the not so "ap overpriced" version of AA.

[Weemadarthur]

I just hope they either make Horizon Walker a Ranger tree, or make bow-using Rangers competitive WITHOUT needing the tree, letting people that aren't Rangers get almost up to Ranger level when using a bow and this new tree.

Personally I think SSG would be far better served if they released a bow pass and made bows balanced and viable before they release the universal tree. Releasing the tree at the same time as the pass is a recipe for disaster and will more than likely just turn the horizon walker into inquisitive mk 2.

Instead of the current plan I would advise SSG to 1st try and do something about the bow animation speed so the last mini pass actually has an effect. Then let the dust settle and see where bows end up on the dps food chain before addressing the dps issue to bring bows in line with other weapons (with an animation pass this could just as easily require bows being nerfed as being buffed) then once the dust has settled again they can release a bow universal tree balanced around those changes that can add alternate options for bow users that wont require every bow user to use the 1 tree just to be viable.

The thing that SSG has to acknowledge before starting work on any bow tree is that bows already have 2 trees that are actually very good already (arcane archer and DWS) but despite this bows even with the best builds and gear still suck. The issues aren't in the trees its in bows themselves and those issues need to be addressed before they do any thing else.

[janave]

Personally I think SSG would be far better served if they released a bow pass and made bows balanced and viable before they release the universal tree. Releasing the tree at the same time as the pass is a recipe for disaster and will more than likely just turn the horizon walker into inquisitive mk 2.

Instead of the current plan I would advise SSG to 1st try and do something about the bow animation speed so the last mini pass actually has an effect. Then let the dust settle and see where bows end up on the dps food chain before addressing the dps issue to bring bows in line with other weapons (with an animation pass this could just as easily require bows being nerfed as being buffed) then once the dust has settled again they can release a bow universal tree balanced around those changes that can add alternate options for bow users that wont require every bow user to use the 1 tree just to be viable.

The thing that SSG has to acknowledge before starting work on any bow tree is that bows already have 2 trees that are actually very good already (arcane archer and DWS) but despite this bows even with the best builds and gear still suck. The issues aren't in the trees its in bows themselves and those issues need to be addressed before they do any thing else.

You have very good points here, I agree with most except AA is mediocre hanging on 2-3 stronger features, also opening from Elf is way-waaay overpriced. AA is still a very old tree for except the elemental imbues and a few passives shifted under the lesser features.

[Weemadarthur]

You have very good points here, I agree with most except AA is mediocre hanging on 2-3 stronger features, also opening from Elf is way-waaay overpriced. AA is still a very old tree for except the elemental imbues and a few passives shifted under the lesser features.

May have to agree to disagree here as I find AA a pretty decent tree (although it could use a little brushing up tbf). Most of the issues with AA are caused by the problems native to bows themselves rather than the lack of power in the tree itself. I do however whole heartedly agree that the elf access is way overpriced.

The problem I can see coming though is that they will use this new universal tree to "fix" bows by making it inquis mk 2 rather than address the problems with bows themselves. I am all for adding a tree that will increase options and build diversity but not at the cost of leaving bows in the terrible state they are in without it.

[IlmerSilverhilt]

A Bow tree sounds interesting, but I already like where my trees are as a Falc AA. For me it has to compete with slaying arrow and capstone, so will be fun to see how Horizon Walker will be!

[Carpone]

I think Ranger itself wont be direct competition, AA and more importantly Inquisitive will be compared to tho. Thematically should have synergy with AA, so also Rangers who get the not so "ap overpriced" version of AA.
While any class can use Horizon Walker, most are going to struggle to spend AP meaningfully in another tree. Ranger is likely to be the most complementary class to pair with Horizon Walker due to Deepwood Stalker. AA is not worth taking past core 3.

[ned_ellis]

Personally I think SSG would be far better served if they released a bow pass and made bows balanced and viable before they release the universal tree. Releasing the tree at the same time as the pass is a recipe for disaster and will more than likely just turn the horizon walker into inquisitive mk 2.

Instead of the current plan I would advise SSG to 1st try and do something about the bow animation speed so the last mini pass actually has an effect. Then let the dust settle and see where bows end up on the dps food chain before addressing the dps issue to bring bows in line with other weapons (with an animation pass this could just as easily require bows being nerfed as being buffed) then once the dust has settled again they can release a bow universal tree balanced around those changes that can add alternate options for bow users that wont require every bow user to use the 1 tree just to be viable.

The thing that SSG has to acknowledge before starting work on any bow tree is that bows already have 2 trees that are actually very good already (arcane archer and DWS) but despite this bows even with the best builds and gear still suck. The issues aren't in the trees its in bows themselves and those issues need to be addressed before they do any thing else.

Whilst I agree with you and Janave, I believe in the podcast they mentioned that they will do the underlying base bow work alongside the release of the Horizon Walker tree (that 'includes ranged stuff' in it). So the whole bow's being more than flavour choices hinge on that undetermined as of yet 'base work'.
Looking at the 5th ed. horizon walker could be a cool add-on (if they can translate the mobility and surprise aspects of the class) to anyone wanting to create a 'magical' archer (along with AA, Feydark and Falconry) - like me! ;) - but I didn't get the feeling it was a 'bow-only tree' at all from what they said.
We shall see...hope they involve the community since many good ideas have been posted over the last year or so.

[Steelstar]

they will do the underlying base bow work alongside the release of the Horizon Walker tree (that 'includes ranged stuff' in it.

This is correct, yes. Horizon Walker is, at its core, a Bow-based tree, but we're doing underlying bow combat style work as well that will benefit any build using a bow. We'll have more details on both down the line.

[ned_ellis]

This is correct, yes. Horizon Walker is, at its core, a Bow-based tree, but we're doing underlying bow combat style work as well that will benefit any build using a bow. We'll have more details on both down the line.

Thanks for confirming Steelstar!
I also inferred from the Q&A that the tentative timeframe was August/October ish; any chance you'd like to confirm that too?! :p

[Steelstar]

Thanks for confirming Steelstar!
I also inferred from the Q&A that the tentative timeframe was August/October ish; any chance you'd like to confirm that too?! :p

Nope! That's the aim but it's way to early to confirm concretely.

[Jerevth]

Nope! That's the aim but it's way to early to confirm concretely.

aim? Pun intended?

[Steelstar]

aim? Pun intended?

Absolutely!

[stengdog123]

Nope! That's the aim but it's way to early to confirm concretely.

I'm humbled that I got a dev to comment in one of my posts :p

Hey Steel, can you drop any (really small) hint on the new classic pack that will go with this?

Any of the suggestions on the thread in the right ballpark, or even the right neighborhood?

[PsychoBlonde]

I think the dungeon floorplans being too large are at least in part caused by player cameras.
Most MMOs have oversized indoor areas to accommodate the fact that players use a behind the character camera view.

If you don't make them oversized, the players camera will be stuck behind walls and such

STO has been criticized for having unrealistically large transporter rooms, the developers state
that they wish they could make them smaller but it would mess up player's camera view.

So unless you have a dedicated 1st person view game, the interiors will be supersized.

Actually the new quests in Borderlands and Feywild with narrower tunnels would tend to explode this concept. The quests work fine with much tighter quarters.

[Xgya]

I agree with the general sentiment that a bow pass shouldn't come with a bow tree, but separate.

Release the bow pass, prove that a bow-using Fighter or Paladin works (it's one of the options they can pick for their preferred weapons, it should be made viable on a pure build without needing outside help), let people play around with bows a bit, THEN, release the new tree and let people compare.

[Weemadarthur]

This is correct, yes. Horizon Walker is, at its core, a Bow-based tree, but we're doing underlying bow combat style work as well that will benefit any build using a bow. We'll have more details on both down the line.

Hi and can I start by saying thanks for responding in this thread.

Is there any chance of getting any more info on what you guys are looking to do with bows that isn't related to the new enhancement tree. I'm not asking for specifics here but if we could get some feedback on what you are aiming to achieve and how its intended to be implemented that could go a long way to alleviating concerns.

The issue atm is that with the last mini pass you gave us extra ranged alacrity to "fix" an issue that actually did nothing in practice. This to my knowledge has never even been acknowledged by the devs and raises a lot of concern over what and how the dev team are going to balance bows in the future.

[Steelstar]

Hi and can I start by saying thanks for responding in this thread.

Is there any chance of getting any more info on what you guys are looking to do with bows that isn't related to the new enhancement tree. I'm not asking for specifics here but if we could get some feedback on what you are aiming to achieve and how its intended to be implemented that could go a long way to alleviating concerns.

The issue atm is that with the last mini pass you gave us extra ranged alacrity to "fix" an issue that actually did nothing in practice. This to my knowledge has never even been acknowledged by the devs and raises a lot of concern over what and how the dev team are going to balance bows in the future.

Yes, more info will be coming down the line. There's a few different moving parts in this one, and we're not going to discuss them before we've had time to make sure the plan is rock-solid. We're still on the heels of Feywild, and heading into the holidays; expect more info sometime next year.

[Silverleafeon]

I wonder.
The newer independent trees have often introduced a new fighting style:


Falconry tree = You have been trained to keep a hunting bird.

Feydark tree = Select a Familiar to accompany you on your adventures.

Inquisitive tree = you instead fight with a Hand Crossbow in each hand,

Vistani Knife Fighter tree = When using a dagger in each hand, you now fight in melee using the Vistani style, with both daggers held point down.



So....what Bow variations are there?

https://ddowiki.com/page/Short_Bow
https://ddowiki.com/page/Composite_Shortbow
https://ddowiki.com/page/Long_Bow
https://ddowiki.com/page/Composite_Longbow


There really is not much implementation of composite bows in game, although I believe at least one version of D&D implemented composite into the game.

Short Bows are almost never used in DDO due to long bows having better damage, although I believe at least one version of D&D allowed short bows on horseback and some other limited space situations.


Given that a Horizon Walker would be more inclined to greater movement of various sorts, perhaps the short bow might suit this tree better?
A short bow tree with a lot of other options could bridge the gap between long bows and short bows?

[salmag]

I said it before in another thread. I'll repost here.



The more Universal trees get added to the game only dilutes the classes, plain and simple...

If the class trees are so weak, figure out why, and address that issue...

If bow use is that weak, figure out why, and address that issue...

Please do not fix an issue by adding a Universal tree.


Fix the underlying issues with bows, first and foremost.

Do not add an unnecessary universal tree for bows. That is not fixing archery...

[droid327]

While any class can use Horizon Walker, most are going to struggle to spend AP meaningfully in another tree. Ranger is likely to be the most complementary class to pair with Horizon Walker due to Deepwood Stalker. AA is not worth taking past core 3.

Ranger, obviously. EK, both Wiz and Sorc now that there's FI for CHA to dmg. Alch VC. Warpriest/Soul. KotC. Kensei. Mechanic still gets most of its bonuses with bows. ES. Let alone any defensive trees like Sac Def for a more ranged-tanky build.

If its like Inqui then you're looking at 41 HW, 7-12 in a stat-to-dmg tree, and ~30 or so to spend in one class tree, which is perfect for filling out a T4 and maybe picking up Core 5.

I think there will be plenty of useful ways to spend your leftover AP for most classes.


I agree with the general sentiment that a bow pass shouldn't come with a bow tree, but separate.

Release the bow pass, prove that a bow-using Fighter or Paladin works (it's one of the options they can pick for their preferred weapons, it should be made viable on a pure build without needing outside help), let people play around with bows a bit, THEN, release the new tree and let people compare.

Yeah this smarts of not learning your lesson with the IPS nerf. Dont make two fundamental changes to the same system and release them together, because it makes it impossible to judge one independently of the other.

An enhancement tree should not be balanced as slightly OP to make up for the fundamental problems of a weapon itself. That's what we learned with Inqui and Ratcatcher. The weapon should be balanced first, then the tree is built on top of that.



Fix the underlying issues with bows, first and foremost.

Do not add an unnecessary universal tree for bows. That is not fixing archery...

Yes exactly. Fix bows themselves, see what changes that brings in practice, then decide if a universal bow tree is still warranted entirely on its own merit.

I'm not against a bow tree in principle - though I think bows are already well-represented in class trees - I just dont want it to become de facto required to use bows, the way Inqui is the only viable way to use xbows or VKF de facto required for daggers.

[Chai]

Cant wait for the "nerf archery" moaning. Gonna be all 2013 up on these forums.

[Thar]

I said it before in another thread. I'll repost here.




Fix the underlying issues with bows, first and foremost.

Do not add an unnecessary universal tree for bows. That is not fixing archery...

crossbow builds have a universal tree

melee/ranged dagger builds have a universal tree

wisdom builds have a semi universal tree.

bows are a lackluster ranged option and have been with few class mess multibuild options. It's ok for them to get a tree. the only other ranged options without a tree are thrown axes, hammers, darts and shuricans although those are mostly monk supported anyway. When was the last time someone tried a build based on thrown axes, hammers or darts? People try to make bows work with ranger builds but it's just too weak.

[droid327]

crossbow builds have a universal tree

melee/ranged dagger builds have a universal tree

wisdom builds have a semi universal tree.

bows are a lackluster ranged option and have been with few class mess multibuild options. It's ok for them to get a tree. the only other ranged options without a tree are thrown axes, hammers, darts and shuricans although those are mostly monk supported anyway. When was the last time someone tried a build based on thrown axes, hammers or darts? People try to make bows work with ranger builds but it's just too weak.

The problem with daggers and xbows before they got trees was they were wholly inferior weapons compared to their direct replacement options. The problem was with the design of the weapons themselves. The new trees created rolespace for them by giving players a reason to want to equip them. Greatclubs are kinda in the same place right now, because they're inherently inferior to Mauls, for comparison.

Bows are not inherently inferior to other ranged options, in terms of design. In fact their x3 crit multiplier should make them slightly better than other ranged options, apples-to-apples. Their problems are mechanics - they cant achieve the same average fire rate as DXB or Thrown, because of several things like animation speed cap, no Expertise feat, etc. There are reasons you'd want to equip Bows, you're just discouraged from it because of they way they work. Having a tree without addressing those issues wont change anything, because they already have plenty of enhancement support...likewise, addressing those issues will make bows more desirable even without a new tree, again because they already have plenty of enhancement support.

The only case I can see the universal tree making a huge impact on is maybe Monkchers, since there really isnt any bow support in the Monk trees themselves. Unless the Bow tree is more powerful than Inquisitive, in which case it'll just bump everyone out of Inqui builds for class-agnostic ranged combat.

Incidentally, Darts are supported by Vile Chemist

[Antiguo]

While any class can use Horizon Walker, most are going to struggle to spend AP meaningfully in another tree. Ranger is likely to be the most complementary class to pair with Horizon Walker due to Deepwood Stalker. AA is not worth taking past core 3.

Or fighter to pair with kensei

[Zaalaos]

All I hope for is for bows to be good on their own, regardless of what bow/ranged tree players end up using. I don't want to be forced to take 41 points in horizon walker. Buffs/mini reworks for AA/Deepwoodstalker/Kensei would be more than welcome.

[LurkingVeteran]

All I hope for is for bows to be good on their own, regardless of what bow/ranged tree players end up using. I don't want to be forced to take 41 points in horizon walker. Buffs/mini reworks for AA/Deepwoodstalker/Kensei would be more than welcome.

Agreed. The base Bow mechanics need help. They tried to give some help via increased attack speed, but that quickly caps out in epics, so ended up failing. They either need to find some way to remove the attack speed cap and speed it up a bit more, or give it more damage per shot (e.g. x2 main stat or smth like that).

[Steelstar]

They either need to find some way to remove the attack speed cap

Removing* the cap is part of what we're working on, yes.

(*not actually "removing", per se - all animations have a cap for stability reasons - but after this pass, bow's cap should be in a place closer to other combat animations, above what you can get through speed boosts, and attack speed boosts should work as expected. That's the plan, anyway. More concrete details down the line.)

[Arkat]

(*not actually "removing", per se - all animations have a cap for stability reasons - but after this pass, bow's cap should be in a place closer to other combat animations, above what you can get through speed boosts, and attack speed boosts should work as expected. That's the plan, anyway. More concrete details down the line.)

So that Ranged Alacrity 25% enhancement on some bows and crossbows will actually mean something?

I sure hope so.

[LurkingVeteran]

Removing* the cap is part of what we're working on, yes.

(*not actually "removing", per se - all animations have a cap for stability reasons - but after this pass, bow's cap should be in a place closer to other combat animations, above what you can get through speed boosts, and attack speed boosts should work as expected. That's the plan, anyway. More concrete details down the line.)

Thanks for sharing! This seems promising.

[Weemadarthur]

Removing* the cap is part of what we're working on, yes.

(*not actually "removing", per se - all animations have a cap for stability reasons - but after this pass, bow's cap should be in a place closer to other combat animations, above what you can get through speed boosts, and attack speed boosts should work as expected. That's the plan, anyway. More concrete details down the line.)

Thanks a lot for this little nugget of info as its exactly the kind of news I have been hoping for. My only request in regards to what you have said already is please consider releasing this part specifically before the new tree or doing any damage changes. I really want bows to be relevant again but at the same time I don't want to see them become defacto OP and I think it would be a lot lot easier to balance bows if you separate the animation speed and damage/tree passes (if possible) so you can more easily monitor where they will end up. If you do the animation pass alone initially you can then spend extra time getting the balance right 1st time rather than trying to balance on the fly several different changes at the same time.

[salmag]

crossbow builds have a universal tree

melee/ranged dagger builds have a universal tree

wisdom builds have a semi universal tree.

bows are a lackluster ranged option and have been with few class mess multibuild options. It's ok for them to get a tree. the only other ranged options without a tree are thrown axes, hammers, darts and shuricans although those are mostly monk supported anyway. When was the last time someone tried a build based on thrown axes, hammers or darts? People try to make bows work with ranger builds but it's just too weak.


All I hope for is for bows to be good on their own, regardless of what bow/ranged tree players end up using. I don't want to be forced to take 41 points in horizon walker. Buffs/mini reworks for AA/Deepwoodstalker/Kensei would be more than welcome.

Exactly my point. Adding universal weapon trees invalidates Classes, because everyone will build for the Weapon instead of the class. Look at Inquisitive and VKF. Universal trees should be splash trees.

If the Devs keep adding more weapon-centric trees, the class trees then become obsolete trees. That is the wrong direction.

If that's the case, add a "Miner" tree for pick use, a "Lumberjack" tree for axe use, a "Caveman" tree for club use, etc...

[rarothrock]

Exactly my point. Adding universal weapon trees invalidates Classes, because everyone will build for the Weapon instead of the class. Look at Inquisitive and VKF. Universal trees should be splash trees.

If the Devs keep adding more weapon-centric trees, the class trees then become obsolete trees. That is the wrong direction.

If that's the case, add a "Miner" tree for pick use, a "Lumberjack" tree for axe use, a "Caveman" tree for club use, etc...

This opposite side to that coin is with more universal trees players have many more options available for them to play. The universal trees allow things like a bow using cleric and have reasonably good dps. Yes, under classic rules a bow using cleric shouldn't really have good dps with a bow. I get that. But under MMO game rules players need to be able to play to their imagination, not be held back by p-n-p rules limitations. Remember, p-n-p D&D was MEANT for team playing with each person specializing in one small area of expertise (or if they were a jack of all trades like a bard they did it all, but not super well). MMOs have to support solo play as well as smaller groups at the same time as supporting full group play. The end result HAS to look different by it's very nature. IMO universal trees is a good way to help create/expand diversity of play (at the expense of the original D&D feel).

[SurlyYuri]

Whatever it is, likely to be a classic GENERIC set.
Nothing that would qualify as it's own campaign setting

so..... what's left?

Tomb of Horror?
Desert Of Desolation?
The Sinister Secret Of Saltmarsh?
Castle Amber?
Expedition To The Barrier Peaks?
The Isle Of Dread (not the one but added for completeness)
The Sunless Citadel?

or something else?

If I had to guess - Tomb of Horror



(low level) Keep On the Borderlands was also part of In Search of Adventure compilation. The groundwork has been laid so the other 8 modules in the B-series could be added pretty easily.
(high level) Bloodstone
(mid level) Lankhmar ( the property rights might be too complicated)
(mid level) Oriental Adventures
(low-mid level) The C-series


(For some comic relief, the could as a cave out in Sands and have the Tomb of the Lizard King)

[Xgya]

This opposite side to that coin is with more universal trees players have many more options available for them to play. The universal trees allow things like a bow using cleric and have reasonably good dps. Yes, under classic rules a bow using cleric shouldn't really have good dps with a bow. I get that. But under MMO game rules players need to be able to play to their imagination, not be held back by p-n-p rules limitations. Remember, p-n-p D&D was MEANT for team playing with each person specializing in one small area of expertise (or if they were a jack of all trades like a bard they did it all, but not super well). MMOs have to support solo play as well as smaller groups at the same time as supporting full group play. The end result HAS to look different by it's very nature. IMO universal trees is a good way to help create/expand diversity of play (at the expense of the original D&D feel).

Classes are meant to have roles, MMO rules or not.
There are things certain classes should be better at than others. That's the whole point.
If a universal tree becomes the better option when choosing something the class should be good at, the Universal tree does something wrong.
If 41 points in a Universal tree, say, Inquisitive, makes a Ranger do more damage at a distance than 41 points in Deepwood Stalker, their own pure DPS tree, then the tree makes the class trees obsolete. This is especially true because class trees require a full commitment of 20 levels in order to reach the apex of their power, while Universal trees don't.

Build diversity is great. A Universal tree doing the job better for a class that's supposed to be good at it than one of their own trees is bad for the game.
Feydark is a neat tree. It's not overly powerful as a main tree, but it DOES give you a very distinct build, while it gives options to other classes as well.
Falconry is awesome. Again, great secondary tree, but the feel you get from making a pure Falconer build is different from just about every other build out there.

That's what a Universal tree should be: Great secondary tree to give options to players, and unique and interesting but mechanically weaker as a full focus - that last part is explained by the lack of sacrifice needed to get its capstone, as well as its global access.

[Jerevth]

I don't think allowing a cleric to be viable with a bow, or a Paladin to get a little fey is a bad thing.

Part of the appeal of D&D (and, frankly, DDO) is that you can dip outside the class and create something unique.
Just think of it as a homebrew class and enjoy?

I, for one, welcome our future Horizon Walker Masters.

[LurkingVeteran]

Clerics in D&D could buff to be situationally decent with any weapon, so that is certainly not an obstacle. E.g. Divine Favor + Divine Might will have it do about Ranger damage. In addition, doing both e.g. martial and spells was more forgiving as you weren't constrained by specialization and gear tetris in the same way hybrids are in DDO.

[salmag]

I don't think allowing a cleric to be viable with a bow, or a Paladin to get a little fey is a bad thing.

Part of the appeal of D&D (and, frankly, DDO) is that you can dip outside the class and create something unique.
Just think of it as a homebrew class and enjoy?

I, for one, welcome our future Horizon Walker Masters.

But that's just it. You're not getting anything unique. It will become FOTM, and everyone will be running it. There is nothing "unique" about it.

How many times in these very forums have people asked for a class build to finish for completionist, and people answer "inquisitive."

ex.
Player 1: Hey, I'm looking to run a Monk life for my completionist. Any suggestions?
Forumite: Inquisitive.
Player 2: Any suggestions for a Tiefling life to finish my Racials?
Forumite: Inquisitive.

and so on and so on and so on...

I have been advocating for stronger Bow use since 2006. That's why was so upset with the IPS nerf for Bows. They need help, not a new tree. Fix the baseline problems first...

Please do not make the classes obsolete with weapon trees... Inquisitive set a very bad precedent...

[Weemadarthur]

But that's just it. You're not getting anything unique. It will become FOTM, and everyone will be running it. There is nothing "unique" about it.

How many times in these very forums have people asked for a class build to finish for completionist, and people answer "inquisitive."

ex.
Player 1: Hey, I'm looking to run a Monk life for my completionist. Any suggestions?
Forumite: Inquisitive.
Player 2: Any suggestions for a Tiefling life to finish my Racials?
Forumite: Inquisitive.

and so on and so on and so on...

I have been advocating for stronger Bow use since 2006. That's why was so upset with the IPS nerf for Bows. They need help, not a new tree. Fix the baseline problems first...

Please do not make the classes obsolete with weapon trees... Inquisitive set a very bad precedent...

1st up I agree with the sentiment behind this post in regards to fix the baseline problems 1st however I do disagree a bit with bows not needing an extra tree. A new tree however should open options for other classes apart from ranger to be effective with bows and should complement what is there already rather than compete with it.

Sorry to sound like a broken record but if the devs can 1st do the fix for bows so rangers (currently the only class with bow dedicated trees) can become a viable bow using build before introducing the new tree they can then balance that new tree so that any class that decides to specialize in bows can be as powerful (although hopefully in new and interesting ways) without it being inquis mk 2.

So in short I'm not against universal trees adding further options and opening builds for classes that wouldn't normally use a particular weapon but I am against universal trees being used to "fix" problems rather than addressing the route cause of the issues themselves.

[KoobTheProud]

I'd be cautious of "classic" dungeons in DDO. They may work great in paper and pen but when converted to an MMO they are awful (Temple of Elemental Evil I'm looking at you). White Plume Mountain is probably the best of the current ones, at least the most faithful.

I'd be stoked if they did S3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks but I think that would be a hell of a lot of work!

ToEE would have been great if it remained top end.

The problem is it worked heavily against the superhero soloist meta at the time and like all packs the top end loot quickly became degraded both by power creep in characters and by newer packs that offered phatter loot.

It's probably too late for DDO to go back to a party-based meta for the pure fun of playing in parties. Too much water under the bridge at this point. It's a shame because for a year or two there DDO was about the best you could get on that end. Then pure grind became the over-arching meta which killed parties for anything but efficiency in power-leveling.

Now we've got a laggy mess with too many layers.

[Xgya]

Sorry to sound like a broken record but if the devs can 1st do the fix for bows so rangers (currently the only class with bow dedicated trees) can become a viable bow using build before introducing the new tree they can then balance that new tree so that any class that decides to specialize in bows can be as powerful (although hopefully in new and interesting ways) without it being inquis mk 2.

I agree with the general sentiment, but I'll add this: Bows are an available option for Kensei, Paladins and Warsoul/Warpriests.
Bows are in such a bad place right now that the only class people can think about when using one is Ranger, and that's because the class FORCES you to use a bow to even access one of its trees.
Meanwhile, any of the other classes that could use one as an option simply refuse to do so.

Make bows a viable option for Kensei FIRST. The tree basically screams "Choose a weapon. Dealing damage with that weapon is something you're considered one of the best at"
Meanwhile, Arcane Archers pair their bow mastery using magic, and Rogues have to use precision to supplement their lack of direct power.
The strongest a weapon should be before any additional numbers (I.e: the first number in the combat log) should be in the hands of a Weapon Master. A Kensei.
It's literally the only thing they're good at.

[Weemadarthur]

I agree with the general sentiment, but I'll add this: Bows are an available option for Kensei, Paladins and Warsoul/Warpriests.
Bows are in such a bad place right now that the only class people can think about when using one is Ranger, and that's because the class FORCES you to use a bow to even access one of its trees.
Meanwhile, any of the other classes that could use one as an option simply refuse to do so.

Make bows a viable option for Kensei FIRST. The tree basically screams "Choose a weapon. Dealing damage with that weapon is something you're considered one of the best at"
Meanwhile, Arcane Archers pair their bow mastery using magic, and Rogues have to use precision to supplement their lack of direct power.
The strongest a weapon should be before any additional numbers (I.e: the first number in the combat log) should be in the hands of a Weapon Master. A Kensei.
It's literally the only thing they're good at.

I appreciate what your saying here but I sort of disagree and will do my best to explain why without derailing the whole thread.

The reason I said to fix so rangers are viable rather than any other class is due to the fact (as you correctly pointed out) that atm they are the only class with a designated bow tree. If rangers can't be made viable bow users then no other class is going to be able to even get close. If bows are fixed well enough that a ranger using its current trees is able to perform adequately then the benchmark is set for other classes with use of the new universal tree to be at least as good. The main reason I don't want to use kensai as the benchmark is the fact that I honestly think the whole kensai tree needs an overhaul. Currently its not the best at anything (swf is better on bards, 2wf is better on rangers and rogues, thf is better on palli and Barb, x-bows are better on rogues and arties etc etc) so making it so that a kensai is performing as the standard would mean that ranger would be overperforming by quite a large margin.

So although I agree with how you think it should be as it stands I don't think that's the case (my personal opinion so feel free to disagree) or if I am mistaken and it is the case then the same fix for rangers would make for the same benefit to kensai anyway. Either way for what my opinion is worth I feel the bow fix (using whichever class as a benchmark) should come before the new tree so then the new tree can be balanced against what we have in place rather than be used to "fix" the issue making it a must have for any bow user.

Apologies in advance in case this post derails this thread into people debating the kensai tree rather than debating bows and the horizon walker tree.

[Mindos]

The reason I said to fix so rangers are viable rather than any other class is due to the fact (as you correctly pointed out) that atm they are the only class with a designated bow tree. If rangers can't be made viable bow users then no other class is going to be able to even get close. If bows are fixed well enough that a ranger using its current trees is able to perform adequately then the benchmark is set for other classes with use of the new universal tree to be at least as good.

Either way for what my opinion is worth I feel the bow fix (using whichever class as a benchmark) should come before the new tree so then the new tree can be balanced against what we have in place rather than be used to "fix" the issue making it a must have for any bow user.

I think we're starting with Monk Archers first, then working backwards to Rangers and then the Universal tree. The Dev fears the Monk Ranger Archer. Muahahah

[Jerevth]

But that's just it. You're not getting anything unique... /snip (addressing the whole quote)

Now that I do agree with, and I think we are both supporting the same concept.
I'd like to see universal trees support more diverse end-game builds.

I bought Inqui, played Inqui once and haven't used it since. I think the global IPS nerf to ranged sullied my taste for ranged in general. I'm having more fun with the wizard class than I ever did with rogue, arti or ranger.
I like the universal tree concept, though, and it could a lot of spin to regular builds. However, I agree with other posts above it should not catapult a character's ability beyond the classes that typically would be associated with a combat domain. (i.e. Rogues- sneak attacks, fighters- combat tactics, Palies tank, barbs inflict hurt, etc)

Unfortunately, there needs to be a perceived value to any U-tree or it won't sell, rendering development of said tree pointless (and costly).
Perhaps, after Horizon Walker, it would be a good time to look at Archtype trees that develop a specific, devoted class (With a requirement of maintaining a majority of levels in that root class)?

[salmag]

Now that I do agree with, and I think we are both supporting the same concept.
I'd like to see universal trees support more diverse end-game builds.

I bought Inqui, played Inqui once and haven't used it since. I think the global IPS nerf to ranged sullied my taste for ranged in general. I'm having more fun with the wizard class than I ever did with rogue, arti or ranger.
I like the universal tree concept, though, and it could a lot of spin to regular builds. However, I agree with other posts above it should not catapult a character's ability beyond the classes that typically would be associated with a combat domain. (i.e. Rogues- sneak attacks, fighters- combat tactics, Palies tank, barbs inflict hurt, etc)

This is exactly what the Inquisitive tree did.

Unfortunately, there needs to be a perceived value to any U-tree or it won't sell, rendering development of said tree pointless (and costly).
Perhaps, after Horizon Walker, it would be a good time to look at Archtype trees that develop a specific, devoted class (With a requirement of maintaining a majority of levels in that root class)?

Currently, there is:

Ranger AA
Ranger DWS
Fighter Kensai
Silver Flame Cleric Warpriest (boosts Favored Weapon - Bow)
Silver Flame FVS War Soul (boosts Favored Weapon - Bow)
Silver Flame Paladin KotC (boosts Favored Weapon - Bow)
Elf AA (they should reduce the AP cost to access this tree)

To a lesser degree
Aerenal Elf Racial and Wood Elf support Longbows as well

To a very minor degree
H-Elf (first core and leads to Elf AA tree)

Do we need ANOTHER tree?

sarcasm
If you are looking at doing Racial past lives you will probably run Inquisitive
/sarcasm

As I've said before, fix the underlying problem... a new tree does NOT do that...

[Grace_ana]

As I've said before, fix the underlying problem... a new tree does NOT do that...

They already said they are doing this. Several times. They can do more than one thing at a time.

[FlavoredSoul]

Exactly my point. Adding universal weapon trees invalidates Classes, because everyone will build for the Weapon instead of the class. Look at Inquisitive and VKF. Universal trees should be splash trees.

If the Devs keep adding more weapon-centric trees, the class trees then become obsolete trees. That is the wrong direction.

If that's the case, add a "Miner" tree for pick use, a "Lumberjack" tree for axe use, a "Caveman" tree for club use, etc...

VKF is a weird example because you want to go T5 rogue assassin and use VKF as a secondary tree in optimal dagger builds (though this is just as much because of the general jank in VNF, as it is because of Assassin's superior critical profile)

Personally I think Falconry is the perfect Universal tree, it works great as a splash tree and is viable as a maintree but not grossly overpowered, it is the compromise between Inquisitive where it dominates your build (and your class levels only really matter if they're rogue levels for sneak attack), and Harper which is just painfully aw



As I've said before, fix the underlying problem... a new tree does NOT do that...


They've said that they're doing just that numerous times already, Now of course the end product has yet to be seen.

If they address the crippling attack speed cap like Steelstar has already mentioned then that will be a huge help to bow builds even if they don't use the new universal tree.

[Arcath]

I wonder.
The newer independent trees have often introduced a new fighting style:


Falconry tree = You have been trained to keep a hunting bird.

Feydark tree = Select a Familiar to accompany you on your adventures.

Inquisitive tree = you instead fight with a Hand Crossbow in each hand,

Vistani Knife Fighter tree = When using a dagger in each hand, you now fight in melee using the Vistani style, with both daggers held point down.



So....what Bow variations are there?

They will probably hold their bows horizontally, hence Horizon Walker.
Maybe fire more than one arrow at a time? I think I've seen this before . . .

[Jerevth]

As I've said before, fix the underlying problem... a new tree does NOT do that...

Steel stated they are fixing bows- even gave some hints on the direction of some of those fixes. (Bow speed cap is being fixed- read Steelstar's post). A new tree will accompany the improvement of the bow combat system. Together, likely with a new pack or expansion, they will make an update.

New trees, and other new content, fund the game's continued existence. They gave away all the content for free, except expansions. Classes, races, U-Trees, expansions are a fact of life with a MMO, unless it's in maintenance mode. They will continue to be introduced (and hopefully they can better anticipate potential imbalances going forward but gamers are devious and will find a way to squeeze more from a build than coders intend) but those new aspects have to also be sensational/fabulous/amazing in order to even sell (For cash- DDO points from subscriptions don't bring added value beyond the Sub cost).

[salmag]

VKF is a weird example because you want to go T5 rogue assassin and use VKF as a secondary tree in optimal dagger builds (though this is just as much because of the general jank in VNF, as it is because of Assassin's superior critical profile)

Personally I think Falconry is the perfect Universal tree, it works great as a splash tree and is viable as a maintree but not grossly overpowered, it is the compromise between Inquisitive where it dominates your build (and your class levels only really matter if they're rogue levels for sneak attack), and Harper which is just painfully aw



They've said that they're doing just that numerous times already, Now of course the end product has yet to be seen.

If they address the crippling attack speed cap like Steelstar has already mentioned then that will be a huge help to bow builds even if they don't use the new universal tree.

I agree with the Falconry tree. It does add something different and functions like Universal tree should.

I have read and understand what Steelstar said and I know I am being negative right now (because I don't see that happening - all focus will be on Horizon Walker). I feel this is is wasted (and costly) time spent on an unnecessary weapon focused tree. This tree (probably like Inquisitive) will overwhelm the class trees (thereby making those trees obsolete). The Class trees become the Splash trees.

As you've said, we have yet to see the end product; but if history is any indication, when all is said and done, the great bow pass that we've been clamoring for will be over. We'll be told, "Just take 41 points in Horizon Walker. Move along, nothing else to see here. Bow problem addressed."

And when we bring it up, they'll say, "Bows are fine now; We gave you Horizon Walker. It's fixed."

I can't wait for the "Lumberjack" axe tree next...

[Xgya]

I appreciate what your saying here but I sort of disagree and will do my best to explain why without derailing the whole thread.

The reason I said to fix so rangers are viable rather than any other class is due to the fact (as you correctly pointed out) that atm they are the only class with a designated bow tree. If rangers can't be made viable bow users then no other class is going to be able to even get close. If bows are fixed well enough that a ranger using its current trees is able to perform adequately then the benchmark is set for other classes with use of the new universal tree to be at least as good. The main reason I don't want to use kensai as the benchmark is the fact that I honestly think the whole kensai tree needs an overhaul. Currently its not the best at anything (swf is better on bards, 2wf is better on rangers and rogues, thf is better on palli and Barb, x-bows are better on rogues and arties etc etc) so making it so that a kensai is performing as the standard would mean that ranger would be overperforming by quite a large margin.

So although I agree with how you think it should be as it stands I don't think that's the case (my personal opinion so feel free to disagree) or if I am mistaken and it is the case then the same fix for rangers would make for the same benefit to kensai anyway. Either way for what my opinion is worth I feel the bow fix (using whichever class as a benchmark) should come before the new tree so then the new tree can be balanced against what we have in place rather than be used to "fix" the issue making it a must have for any bow user.

Apologies in advance in case this post derails this thread into people debating the kensai tree rather than debating bows and the horizon walker tree.

No worries about derailing. Notice how the only bow-centric tree in all DDO isn't about doing damage with a bow.
It's Arcane Archer, meant to be doing magical damage channeled through a specific weapon.

Can an Arcane Archer end up doing more damage than a Kensei when both are using bows? By any means, they could.
The real issue here is the main feature of Arcane Archer is NOT bow damage - it's Imbues.
Can a Rogue end up doing more damage than a Kensei using a bow? Again, no issues there, Rogues can use bows.
But the main feature will be Sneak Attacks, not bow damage.

The only truly bow-damage-centric build there is out there is a bow Kensei. It cannot, by definition, do anything else.
Much like the only truly *insert-weapon-here*-damage-centric build out there is a Kensei.
Every other tree and class out there does damage with a weapon, and then adds some other feature.
Artificers deal with runearm shots between crossbow bolts. Rogues deal with debilitating traps and sneak attacks. Arcane Archers deal with magical arrows. Barbarians get fury to power them at a cost. Paladins get magical healing and buffs, so to battle Clerics and Favored Souls.
Not the Kensei. All Kensei does, all Kensei knows about, is damage. Streamlined, continuous, unwavering damage.

As such, when comparing one of the above without their extra features, the Kensei should ALWAYS come out on top.

I don't want to derail this thread myself, I'm just posing my argument as to why Kensei should be used as the benchmark. Because it's the only one that can be used for weapon damage in a vacuum, without anything else potentially tacked on.

[LurkingVeteran]

I largely agree that a Kensai specialized in Weaon X should be near the top of all builds with Weapon X, because it is a class tree specialized in that. I've made this comparison myself previously. That said, Kensai might currently be a bit behind some other pure trees, but it should still be approximately on par. Inq kind of threw this logic on its head when it first came out, as it was by far the best xbow tree for all classes. I hope Horizon Walker doesn't end up in a similar position.

However, I can totally understand if they want to roll expensive system updates into a patch with content they can earn money on. I also think it's okay if new content errs slightly on the side of strong to get people to try it out and drive sales. The problem is when it's just so much better you cannot justify running something else, and it ends up killing diversity like Inq was doing. Especially when its gameplay basically just involves holding left mouse button. I would prefer if they started adding more active abilities to trees. Like strong attacks, AoEs or CC on (shared?) timers, which forced you to make choices and adapt to the battle situation.

[droid327]

Re: Kensei...yes, a Bow Kensai should be a complete and viable approach for pure damage. I think that is going to take a two-pass approach though: one, get Bows fundamentally viable. Two, update Kensei itself, since it really doesnt provide much more than AB: Haste and lots of +damage, and that doesnt go nearly as far as it used to. Plus some crit bypass, to be fair. But the T5s are nowhere near as useful as T5s in other classes.

It needs more Doublestrike/shot, it needs Strikethrough for THF specs, it needs more MP/RP, it needs Attack Speed, it could probably do with some +% damage at the higher tier too. I think they worry about Fighter splashes being too powerful for other martial classes, considering they also get you free feats...but honestly I dont think that's as much of a balance issue anymore. It should provide at least as much raw DPS stats as any other martial class tree, considering its Fighter and they're one-trick ponies, and right now things like KotC and EK completely outclass it despite being tied to more versatile classes.


They already said they are doing this. Several times. They can do more than one thing at a time.

They can but they shouldnt...because it'll be impossible, or at least much more difficult, to suss out whether the overall changes to bows were sufficient, if we also have Horizon Walker released at the same time. What if the changes are weak but HW is OP? It ends up evening out for them, but for any non-HW bow build its insufficient, and that's not a success. But 80% of the feedback you'll get is from HW players saying "it feels good now" and the devs will just pat themselves on the back, while the other 20% of players consign themselves to respec into HW.

Release bow changes first. See how it changes the calculus for all existing bow builds. Then gauge what needs there still are that HW can address.

[noinfo]

Exactly my point. Adding universal weapon trees invalidates Classes, because everyone will build for the Weapon instead of the class. Look at Inquisitive and VKF. Universal trees should be splash trees.

If the Devs keep adding more weapon-centric trees, the class trees then become obsolete trees. That is the wrong direction.

If that's the case, add a "Miner" tree for pick use, a "Lumberjack" tree for axe use, a "Caveman" tree for club use, etc...

And what is wrong with some building for the weapon and not the class? A ranger should not be the "only" long bow specialist or any class be the x weapon specialist. As long as people meet the pre req they should be able to do whatever.

The inquisitor was just broken over powered. It is probably the worst example to use initially. It can now reasonable be used as a stand alone but is not dominant. People wanting to use it to get completionist have nothing to do with the trees power but the fact that they can't be bothered regearing to run multiple different classes each time they TR (something that does not exist in DnD) take those builds to 30 and while they may be serviceable they will not dominate.

Harper is probably one of the worst and not a fan of the Feydark as full trees as I find little useful at capstones to support full use of trees which is a shame.

If someone was looking to do racial completionist without needing to regear you would be an alchemist or sorc any day.

[Weemadarthur]

They can but they shouldnt...because it'll be impossible, or at least much more difficult, to suss out whether the overall changes to bows were sufficient, if we also have Horizon Walker released at the same time. What if the changes are weak but HW is OP? It ends up evening out for them, but for any non-HW bow build its insufficient, and that's not a success. But 80% of the feedback you'll get is from HW players saying "it feels good now" and the devs will just pat themselves on the back, while the other 20% of players consign themselves to respec into HW.

Release bow changes first. See how it changes the calculus for all existing bow builds. Then gauge what needs there still are that HW can address.

This pretty much sums it up as far as I'm concerned. Well said.

[Xgya]

And what is wrong with some building for the weapon and not the class? A ranger should not be the "only" long bow specialist or any class be the x weapon specialist. As long as people meet the pre req they should be able to do whatever.

There's a slight issue with that argument and it's the fact it could be applied to anything.
Want to do magic damage? Sure, Global Tree now allows anyone to deal just below Sorcerer levels of magical damage.
After all, they're building for the playstyle, and not the Fighter class they picked.

There's a reason certain features are bound to class, and you need a rather solid reason to break that barrier. Merely asking the question "Why not?" is not quite enough to warrant doing it.

Rangers aren't the only bow specialists out there. Ranged Smite evil is a thing now, so Paladins might enjoy. So would Fighters that have a tree dedicated to sacrificing everything for the sake of one weapon type.

41 points in a Global Spell Damage tree should not grant the same level of prowess as 41 points in Fire Savant.
For that same reason, Kensei should be more attractive to someone using a bow than Horizon Walker, and so should Knight of the Chalice and Arcane Archer.
The tree should have options that makes it distinct from the other bow-based trees, so classes that could choose a more optimal route using a bow can still pick the more flavorful option, but it should not be the optimal solution.
The only times the tree's T5s should be the optimal solution is if, as you said, you build for the weapon, not the class, and choose to be a Bow-wielding Barbarian. Then, yes, it should be the optimal pick if you absolutely must use a bow.

[zooble]

Apologies in advance in case this post derails this thread into people debating the kensai tree rather than debating bows and the horizon walker tree.

Xyga is just baiting you into arguing Kensei which is a fool's errand since by his logic no class/tree in the game should be more powerful than Kensei including Paladin/Barb/etc. His comments are the least valuable in this whole thread. If you want to talk Kensei, both of you go start a new thread and stop derailing this one which is about bows, not fighter.

What's more, now he's trying to twist people's words into something like: if you don't agree with me you're basically saying every class should be able to play as a sorc lmao.

I'm thinking someone shot him in the *ss with a bow lol

[anticlimax]

Honestly as someone who's main is an Archer I'm pretty stoked that bow attack speed might be getting fixed... it will cause me a few headaches doing a rebuild I expect, but I'd be lying if I said I don't like that sort of thing.

As for Horizon Walker as an alpha enhancement tree? It's been a long time coming IMO. Bows are by far the most popular objectively bad weapon in DDO... It's a classic archetype that is foolish to not capitalise on. Will I use it? Well, that depends on how well it synergises with Monk, I look forward to more details.

And just in case Steelstar hasn't been scared off by the usual asinine powergammer arguments, here's my wish list for ranged combat (I know we're talking Archery but these are mostly QoL improvements for ranged), most important to me first:

1: Ki generation with ranged attacks; even if its limited to once per volley or once per second or so, I feel it's a glaring hole in Monk design.

2: More hitpoints. As an Elf AA Monk Shadowdancer... I cant fit LGS into my setup, 4 piece Winter Fey set is out of the question, EDF gimps ranged combat... nuff said.

3: Shot on the Run: Whilst holding a ranged weapon, you no longer suffer a movement penalty when running backwards. This is obvious, not only because the feat does nothing rn at endgame, but also, whether people like kiting or not, casters can drop an AoE spell and run around in circles at full speed.. Ranged needs to be able to match this performance in some way.

As you can probably tell, I'm not that concerned about dps. I use Shadowdancer most of the time for instas, and switch to Shiradi for those couple of raids where dps is the only requirement.

[salmag]

And what is wrong with some building for the weapon and not the class? A ranger should not be the "only" long bow specialist or any class be the x weapon specialist. As long as people meet the pre req they should be able to do whatever.

The inquisitor was just broken over powered. It is probably the worst example to use initially. It can now reasonable be used as a stand alone but is not dominant. People wanting to use it to get completionist have nothing to do with the trees power but the fact that they can't be bothered regearing to run multiple different classes each time they TR (something that does not exist in DnD) take those builds to 30 and while they may be serviceable they will not dominate.

Harper is probably one of the worst and not a fan of the Feydark as full trees as I find little useful at capstones to support full use of trees which is a shame.

If someone was looking to do racial completionist without needing to regear you would be an alchemist or sorc any day.

Nowhere have I stated that only Rangers should be the only class able to use a bow. I am talking about bow use (archery), not Rangers.

Silver Flame FVS, Cleric, Paladin
Fighter Kensai
Ranger
Any Elf, Wood Elf, Half-Elf

I feel they should scrap plans for any Universal Weapon tree. For bows specifically, Fix them with what they currently have available. Let some time pass... make any adjustments that they need to... Do not make the same mistake that was made with Inquisitive. Do not make Class trees splash trees...

DDO started out as an MMORPG. They already took away the "MMO," Universal weapon trees take away the "RPG." Alas, that is where they are headed...

My other fears (regarding bows) are coming to fruition with Steelstar's comments. The Horizon Walker is pretty much a done deal. He stated he was working on it (and other things). A little read between the lines... At this point, the devs invested time (money) developing this tree, so that trumps anything else. Horizon Walker will go live because of that (wasted) time (money), so here is the bow fix. History has proved this time and again with this crew. It's sad.

And once again, this is regarding archery, not Rangers specifically.

BTW, When is that Lumberjack tree coming out?

[Silverleafeon]

Horizon Walker is a classic Prestige class and has some 5th edition roots as well:


We are looking at things like:




Ranger Level Spell
3rd Protection from Evil and Good
5th Misty Step
9th Haste
13th Banishment
17th Teleportation Circle

or



Terrain Mastery
At each level, the Horizon Walker adds a new terrain environment to their repertoire from those given below. Terrain mastery gives a horizon walker a bonus on checks involving a skill useful in that terrain, or some other appropriate benefit. A horizon walker also knows how to fight dangerous creatures typically found in that terrain, gaining a +1 insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against creatures with that terrain mentioned in the Environment entry of their descriptions. The horizon walker only gains the bonus if the creature description specifically lists the terrain type.

Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not.

Planar Terrain Mastery
Planar terrain mastery functions just like terrain mastery, except that the horizon walker can choose one of the planar categories at each level. The horizon walker can take a non-planar terrain type instead, if she wishes.



The 5ed looks appears to have a more practical application.



Protection from Evil and Good = this is easily placed as a 1st level cleric spell:
https://ddowiki.com/page/Protection_from_Evil

<Consider placing this as a tier one ability in the tree>


Misty Step = we have several equivalents here, all of which are gated by higher levels:
https://ddowiki.com/page/Leap_of_Faith (level 17)
https://ddowiki.com/page/Misty_Escape (level 15)
https://ddowiki.com/page/Abundant_Step (level 12, also requires Ki)
https://ddowiki.com/page/Thief-Acrobat_enhancements#Vault (tier five Thief Acrobat Tree)
https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Cannith_Boots_of_Propulsion (level 18 item that is easy to farm)

<Consider placing this as a core 18 or tier five ability in the tree>


Haste = as per the level three wizard spell (available to a 5th level wizard) or (available to a level 18 war priest)
https://ddowiki.com/page/Haste

<Consider placing this as a core 12/18 or tier 4/5 ability in the tree>


Banishment = as per the level 6 cleric or level 7 wizard spell
https://ddowiki.com/page/Banishment

<Consider placing this as a core 12/18 or tier 4/5 ability in the tree>


Teleportation Circle = as per the spells: Dimension Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Word of Recall
https://ddowiki.com/page/Dimension_Door (level 4 wizard)
https://ddowiki.com/page/Teleport (level 5 wizard)
https://ddowiki.com/page/Greater_Teleport (level 7 wizard)
https://ddowiki.com/page/Word_of_Recall (level 6 cleric)

<Consider using Dimension Door locked inside tier 5 or core 18/20 or Teleport as a tier 4>
[Since Teleport/Greater Teleport are easily scrolled, I recommend focusing on the more rare Dimension Door spell.]
[If Word of Recall is considered, please upgrade the spell with more location choices at the same time.]
{Feel free to toss multiple versions into this tree for added appeal.}




Also regarding the focus of the tree,
Inquisitor took the useless Light/Heavy Xbows and made such interesting.

<Suggest looking closely at Shortbows and considering doing the same as shortbows are rarely used?>
[Does anyone have a character that uses a shortbow as a primary weapon?]
{What about giving shortbow a 10% speed increase? After speed limits are removed?}

[Silverleafeon]

A note to the Devs who build and monitor equipment balance to check with the Dev working on the Horizon Walker tree to see if they are considering using shortbow as a theme?

If so, then we likely need more shortbows and one might check to see if there are any shortbows with crazy broken crit range/multipliers like 17-20 x5 or the like and nerf them now instead of later?

[Grace_ana]

A note to the Devs who build and monitor equipment balance to check with the Dev working on the Horizon Walker tree to see if they are considering using shortbow as a theme?

If so, then we likely need more shortbows and one might check to see if there are any shortbows with crazy broken crit range/multipliers like 17-20 x5 or the like and nerf them now instead of later?

I hope not. If it's just shortbows, I'm going to be super unhappy about the lack of support for all the great longbows I have.

[Silverleafeon]

I hope not. If it's just shortbows, I'm going to be super unhappy about the lack of support for all the great longbows I have.

+1
I just looked and there are hardly any short bows but tons of long bows, so such a design direction would likely end in failure.
The few short bows worth looking at seem to promote slightly expanded crit range, making such a design direction worse yet.

[Xgya]

Xyga is just baiting you into arguing Kensei which is a fool's errand since by his logic no class/tree in the game should be more powerful than Kensei including Paladin/Barb/etc. His comments are the least valuable in this whole thread. If you want to talk Kensei, both of you go start a new thread and stop derailing this one which is about bows, not fighter.

What's more, now he's trying to twist people's words into something like: if you don't agree with me you're basically saying every class should be able to play as a sorc lmao.


I've spotted an argument basically saying every class should be able to play as a ranger. Replacing the class with sorc to show how ridiculous that sounds seemed appropriate. You laughing about it proves you figured out how ridiculous that sounds. Thank you.

It's about making sure the class without any unique class features is used as the measuring stick for what a weapon should be able to do.
Nobody should be better at dealing Sneak Attacks than a Rogue. If there's ever a Sneak Attack rework, you have to make sure Rogues are used as the measuring stick for that.

Rangers and Paladins are both hybrid classes. Hybrids trade sheer numbers for versatility.

[Gljosh]

Come on Acrobat Q-Staff specialist Universal Tree?

[ice584]

*snip* but we're doing underlying bow combat style work as well that will benefit any build using a bow. *snip*

This is my opinion, so take that for what it's worth, but the worst thing about bow is targeting.
It is Just. The. Worst. I constantly have trouble with arrows not even registering that they were fired. I'm not talking about a miss, or looking the wrong direction, I'm talking about the engine not realizing that an arrow should be fired from my bow when I click or am already pressing the mouse button. Or, registering that a shot should be fired but shooting it straight into the ceiling. This requires me to either re-press the mouse button or re-acquire my target and start a new attack.

What would be really great is to do away with the actual projectiles, since the end result is less like true projectiles and more like hitscan anyway. Normal bow functionality would impact the initial hitscan target along a thin trajectory from the bow, Precise Shot would pierce the first X targets or X distance, Improved Precise Shot would pierce some sufficiently high number of targets or distance, and Archer's Focus could be a special stance that allows you to manually target a single entity. Maybe Combat Archery could widen the thin trajectory to make it have more "AoE" impact. I'm sure there are lots of ways you could do it.

Regardless, doing something to improve targeting would be a great help.

[SpartanKiller13]

All I want from Horizon Walker is a "dash" that's actually a blink. Like maybe a tiny animation, but instead of dashing you're just there. Dimension Step or something.

Would probably be disorienting as all getout but so cool!


Rangers and Paladins are both hybrid classes. Hybrids trade sheer numbers for versatility.

I see you haven't played since the Paladin rework lol. They currently have the sheer numbers and the versatility :)

[Mindos]

I hope not. If it's just shortbows, I'm going to be super unhappy about the lack of support for all the great longbows I have.

I had a thought that longbows should have greater W die, but shortbows should have extra effects, or double even. Or double stat bonus's (boni?) compared to longbow, such as the longbow does more damage, but the shortbow has more versatility.

Like this sorta: https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Collapsible_Shortbow

[Mindos]

ToEE would have been great if it remained top end.

The problem is it worked heavily against the superhero soloist meta at the time and like all packs the top end loot quickly became degraded both by power creep in characters and by newer packs that offered phatter loot.

I think it would be great if once a year or so, one or two new weapons/items got tossed into TOEE. With a bump to difficulty of course.

[noinfo]

There's a slight issue with that argument and it's the fact it could be applied to anything.
Want to do magic damage? Sure, Global Tree now allows anyone to deal just below Sorcerer levels of magical damage.
After all, they're building for the playstyle, and not the Fighter class they picked.

There's a reason certain features are bound to class, and you need a rather solid reason to break that barrier. Merely asking the question "Why not?" is not quite enough to warrant doing it.

Rangers aren't the only bow specialists out there. Ranged Smite evil is a thing now, so Paladins might enjoy. So would Fighters that have a tree dedicated to sacrificing everything for the sake of one weapon type.

41 points in a Global Spell Damage tree should not grant the same level of prowess as 41 points in Fire Savant.
For that same reason, Kensei should be more attractive to someone using a bow than Horizon Walker, and so should Knight of the Chalice and Arcane Archer.
The tree should have options that makes it distinct from the other bow-based trees, so classes that could choose a more optimal route using a bow can still pick the more flavorful option, but it should not be the optimal solution.
The only times the tree's T5s should be the optimal solution is if, as you said, you build for the weapon, not the class, and choose to be a Bow-wielding Barbarian. Then, yes, it should be the optimal pick if you absolutely must use a bow.

Let's take your flawed argument a bit further. Let's export a better version of the fire sorc tree. Your 41 points in tree fighter now gets a fb sla. Fire spell bonuses to use with his 1000 odd spell points. Sounds like a great trade

A wiz using it might actually be able to nuke a bit. A favoured soul might as well. But none of them as well as a sort or alch whose other trees and class abilities such as spell points and spells support it. A tree is not the class.

[Xgya]

Let's take your flawed argument a bit further. Let's export a better version of the fire sorc tree. Your 41 points in tree fighter now gets a fb sla. Fire spell bonuses to use with his 1000 odd spell points. Sounds like a great trade

A wiz using it might actually be able to nuke a bit. A favoured soul might as well. But none of them as well as a sort or alch whose other trees and class abilities such as spell points and spells support it. A tree is not the class.

If Horizon Walker does the same for archers, I'm in.

"A Barbarian might actually be able to shoot arrows a bit. A Rogue might as well. But none of them as well as a sort of Ranger whose other trees and class abilities support it"

It's actually what I'm arguing for. That the tree isn't better than any relevant class tree for its theme, but allows someone really attached to the theme to dip into it.

There's several bow-using class trees out there. Arcane Archer, Warpriest, Kensei, Knight of the Chalice. To classes with access to those trees, Horizon Walker should bring interesting low hanging fruit, but be less powerful than filling out the class' original tree that supports bows.

[Silverleafeon]

All I want from Horizon Walker is a "dash" that's actually a blink. Like maybe a tiny animation, but instead of dashing you're just there. Dimension Step or something.

Would probably be disorienting as all getout but so cool!


+1 Yes.

Something other than a "here have a teleport spell in tier four, because maybe you have poor umd and we feel sorry for you..."

please impress us.

3rd Protection from Evil and Good - scroll available
Spice up with -x% spell absorption from alignment and immunity to mental control

5th Misty Step - I like this

9th Haste - clickies, pots and scrolls available although nice
Don't suppose we could get permanent haste locked into a top tier slot?

13th Banishment - really ???
How about a +3W attack that hits elementals and outsiders really hard with a chance of banishment if you are using a bow?

17th Teleportation Circle
How about you become one with a displacer beast ?

[Yamani]

9th Haste - clickies, pots and scrolls available although nice
Don't suppose we could get permanent haste locked into a top tier slot?


Permanent haste in the enhancements would be interesting, especially for bows. As that would only be useful for heroics and traded out for either blinding speeds (22%) or ranged alacrity (25%). Heck even a swiftness aug is 15%. So its something that's quickly phased out.

As for the tree overall Ima just hold my judgement till I see what's in it.

[Lencrennis]

Removing* the cap is part of what we're working on, yes.

(*not actually "removing", per se - all animations have a cap for stability reasons - but after this pass, bow's cap should be in a place closer to other combat animations, above what you can get through speed boosts, and attack speed boosts should work as expected. That's the plan, anyway. More concrete details down the line.)

We have all the details we need. It's just another horribly misdesigned ranged tree from the guy who said that elven AA is the hardest thing to balance in DDO!

[Artos_Fabril]

For that same reason, Kensei should be more attractive to someone using a bow than Horizon Walker, and so should Knight of the Chalice and Arcane Archer.
The tree should have options that makes it distinct from the other bow-based trees, so classes that could choose a more optimal route using a bow can still pick the more flavorful option, but it should not be the optimal solution.
The only times the tree's T5s should be the optimal solution is if, as you said, you build for the weapon, not the class, and choose to be a Bow-wielding Barbarian. Then, yes, it should be the optimal pick if you absolutely must use a bow.

Look at it another way, and there's no reason Kensai should be a fighter tree. Look at the benefits it offers:
-Focus on one weapon
-Centering weapons
-Light armor dodge/MDB
-Universal stat boost (Power surge & Capstone)
-Weapon specific damage, threat range, and crit range

Kensai is already a universal weapon-based tree inexplicably locked to fighter, not a fighter tree for using all weapons. Gating the bonus damage by weapons specialization feats is an artificial block that could be removed without changing anything fundamental to the tree.

That opens up a tree for fighters that could be tailored better to the class, perhaps some sort of Tactician or Armored Combatant or maybe something that focuses on the Fighter's versatility of available weapons instead of removing it.

[Jerevth]

Look at it another way, and there's no reason Kensai should be a fighter tree. Look at the benefits it offers:
-Focus on one weapon
-Centering weapons
-Light armor dodge/MDB
-Universal stat boost (Power surge & Capstone)
-Weapon specific damage, threat range, and crit range

Kensai is already a universal weapon-based tree inexplicably locked to fighter, not a fighter tree for using all weapons. Gating the bonus damage by weapons specialization feats is an artificial block that could be removed without changing anything fundamental to the tree.

That opens up a tree for fighters that could be tailored better to the class, perhaps some sort of Tactician or Armored Combatant or maybe something that focuses on the Fighter's versatility of available weapons instead of removing it.

I disagree; it's explicable. The fighter that dedicates themselves completely to mastering a specific weapon and complimentary defensive form is a trope from many stories and games.
What's inexplicable would be any class having an equal level of capability because of a universal tree that has little, or nothing, to do with their class. Harper and Falconry make some sense for accompanying nearly any class but Inquisitor...? Newp. Crossbow skill and impressive damage buffs, effects and tricks that can be obtained by anyone? (A dedicated wizard with PM, EK and Inqui will have enough feat choices to obtain near mastery of ranged combat and their dedicated arcane profession.) That seems like it's just too much, tbh. The cat's out of the bag on that one, though.

[Artos_Fabril]

No, it's explicable. The fighter that dedicates themselves completely to mastering a specific weapon and complimentary defensive form is a trope from many stories and games.
What's inexplicable would be any class having an equal level of capability because of a universal tree that has little, or nothing, to do with their class.
It seems to me that anyone could dedicate themselves completely to mastering a specific weapon, no need to also learn how to wear heavy armor, all other weapons, all shields, and whatever you put 39 other AP into.

[Xgya]

Look at it another way, and there's no reason Kensai should be a fighter tree. Look at the benefits it offers:
-Focus on one weapon
-Centering weapons
-Light armor dodge/MDB
-Universal stat boost (Power surge & Capstone)
-Weapon specific damage, threat range, and crit range


You make a fair point for Kensei being shared between Fighters and Monks, but not for making it global.

Focus in general and centering is a Monk thing, while focusing on a single weapon is most definitely a Fighter thing. (don't believe me? Try taking the full Weapon Specialization chain on a non-Fighter). There are 3 Fighter feat lines, for 3 Fighter trees. Armored for Defenders, Tactics for Vanguards, and Kensei for Weapon Specialization.

Plus, Kensei only centers you with melee weapons, so they don't even work with bows that need a specific feat instead, and this nominally is about a new ranged tree.

[barecm]

The issue I see currently in DDO is that if you are not a caster,(sorc, wizzy, alchemist) your dps is subpar. On top of that, if you are using a bow, you are subpar to the group of already subpar dps. So, what bow use currently offers that you cannot get better anywhere else is the AA tree imbues; which are wisdom based. If you have tried to use paralyze and fear arrows LE or higher, you quickly realize that you need to focus your build on wisdom and enchantment items if you want to have reasonable success. So, where do you go for some added dps? Well, you need wisdom to attack and damage from either the falconry tree or cleric etc... Without that, you are either looking at a str build or dex build for dps; which means you are going to suffer somewhere if you want to use imbues from the AA tree. If you are going a pure dps route (not using paralyze or fear arrows) you might as well just go inquisitive as the dps with bows is simply not there.

My hope/suggest/request is that the devs consider the wisdom based part of bow use and not just dex when designing a new tree and making bow mechanic changes.

[LurkingVeteran]

Re: above

AA CC isn't very good compared to baseline thrower procs/whistler etc anymore. Especially not now when everybody can get no save helpless CC out of Illusionist. I doubt it's worth bending over backwards for.

Ranged sustained dps is probably higher than nukers, AoE burst is just so much better on trash when mob density is high.

[LurkingVeteran]

Regarding attack speed boosts, doesn't thrower also cap out at like 86 attacks/min? I wonder if a simple fix for bow would be to just give them more persistent double shot similar to throwing expertize. They have their own mini Manyshot now, maybe all ranged should have some mini Expertize doubleshot. You could convert the new AS ED enhancement to double shot also. Then put Manyshot and TTS on further shared CD and Bow is balanced again. At least on paper.

Lots of people seem to have problems w/ arrows not connecting, so maybe also consider making player arrows instant like xbow bolts. I don't know if it would make more sense to put dev resources on this rather than attack speed caps?

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

What is so awful about Temple of Elemental Evil? I rather like it; indeed it is one of very few quests in DDO which are well worth exploring without actually completing, almost as if it were a wilderness area. The only things bad about it IMO are the absurdly difficult end fight on Heroic setting, and the Heroic level range -- it should have been about level 12 instead of 7. White Plume Mountain, OTOH is a pretty straightforward quest -- if it were not the rework of a classic module, it would be nothing special.

Wil Wheaton is what's awful about it.
He's a fine actor, but not a good DM -
perhaps its not his fault, the writing isn't very good,
and they should have saved his childhood stories for
an interview with SSG on youtube, not a quest.

[kanordog]

They will probably hold their bows horizontally, hence Horizon Walker.
Maybe fire more than one arrow at a time? I think I've seen this before . . .


Firing multiple arrows is a great fix so more arrows can disappear to nowhere lol





I don't want to derail this thread myself, I'm just posing my argument as to why Kensei should be used as the benchmark. Because it's the only one that can be used for weapon damage in a vacuum, without anything else potentially tacked on.


Agree with you, I had a STR life using bows in kensai. It was good to see the raw damage. Did outshoot inquisitives pre level 10 ish. Than the imbues and spellpower scales better than raw damage so that's why AA is better and seen as a benchmark.
Also the +4 to hit and +5 to damage is a huge miss when not taking 8 levels of fighter. They should fix that stupid 8 level requirement for kensai tree. (Might start a thread about this)

Horizon walker will be an imbue, +hit&dmg, and doubleshot tree, nothing special just powercreep fo sell. I doubt it WILL fix bows for anybody else especially since I didn't even hear about them recognizing the miss-shots (as in messed up hitbox). As long as arrows fly to nowhere bows will be hard to balance since it completely messes up any possible real dps measuring. And please correct me if I am wrong but these miss-shots were not that frequent when monkchers were a thing (around 2013).


ps.: Also add f*** bowstrings. That would do for new fighting style...

[Aelonwy]

Come on Acrobat Q-Staff specialist Universal Tree?

Right? Acrobat isn't a bad tree its actually very nice but its too AP expensive (73pts) to fill the whole tree with too many arrows of required expenditure to get the next tier item. If they just unhooked some of the arrows that would help. But there does seem to be an opening for a Universal qstaff tree because can't ALL classes use qstaff just not well? If they made one I think I'd prefer it to be mostly melee but have a single line of enhancements for casters to synergize with Druid, Henshin, Cleric/FvS of Aureon maybe it could also appeal to bard spellsinger/warchanter too if done right. There's potential.

[Aelonwy]

ps.: Also add f*** bowstrings. That would do for new fighting style...

Only if they add Garrote attack with those bowstrings. ;p