Vanguard vs KoTC

[Tobril]

I've made a short video to illustrate the difference in DPS between Vanguard and KoTC.

The character is using equivalent weapons, identical body equipment, the same amount of double strike, and zero filigrees.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz8aAE_VQTE

(Vanguard - 43 seconds && KoTC - 38 seconds)


Notice how much the Vanguard picks up speed as vulnerability stacks add up. During a raid your KoTC will see a similar benefit as debuffers and/or popular weapons apply this same debuff.

The 5 seconds longer on an R1 boss doesn't seem like much, and it isn't. When you compare the ~150k HP of this boss vs ~5 million of a LH Baba...that's over 30 times the HP. The loss of DPS adds up even more at higher difficulties and can mean the difference between a fast clear, rough recovery, or even a wipe in some raids.

Vanguard is a fun tree and what you do while leveling generally doesn't matter. When raiding please consider showing up with a more DPS oriented configuration for the sake your 11 team members and yourself.


Two Handed Weapons vs Hand-and-a-half Weapons

Base damage on Hand-and-a-half tends to be ~2/3 of a Two Handed equivalent
Hand-and-a-half gets 1.6x damage of your main stat vs Two Handed granting 3x.



Vanguard Pros


Built-in vulnerability stacks - Somewhat limited in application due to this property being available on many popular raid weapons. Debuffer characters also nullify this benefit. New and/or solo players will get some value out of these.
Fancy Stuns
Sword and Board looks/feels awesome
Attack speed is high and feels like you're winning a slap-fight



KoTC Pros

Instead of stunning something every 30 seconds, you delete an entire pack at low levels and 33% of a pack at high levels
Lots of healing amplification
Vastly higher DPS vs Evil Outsiders and Undead
More Enhancement Points are available to spend in Defender+Racial trees, due to the need to get Divine Might on either Vanguard or KoTC. These points can be spent to get more dodge, AC, and PRR/MRR that will grant more overall defensive gains than simply strapping on a shield.

[magaiti]

pros tl;dr
vanguard: can win a slap fight
KotC: basically Thanos

[Knightrose]

Hey Tobril nice video.

In my experience I found Fighter Vanguard to be a lot stronger than Paladin. Using roughly the same gear. Naturally of course Paladin was stronger for soloing because of healing and saves.

My last Vanguard life was aimed at debuffing and dps and that decision brought me to the conclusion that Vanguard is great in groups as extra DPS and debuffing. Where as THF is great for DPS and cleaning up trash near death.

Which style do you enjoy playing more?

[Tobril]

Hey Tobril nice video.

In my experience I found Fighter Vanguard to be a lot stronger than Paladin. Using roughly the same gear. Naturally of course Paladin was stronger for soloing because of healing and saves.

My last Vanguard life was aimed at debuffing and dps and that decision brought me to the conclusion that Vanguard is great in groups as extra DPS and debuffing. Where as THF is great for DPS and cleaning up trash near death.

Which style do you enjoy playing more?



Vanguard has a use case for groups with zero other forms of debuffs. This is limited in practice due to fetters and other sources of vulnerability are sprinkled on all kinds of weapons and builds. TWF is also a lot easier than swapping weapons every couple of seconds, let alone attempting to do so and optimize full stack uptime.

(Meaning you minimize swaps to keep your own DPS up, while ensuring all the debuffs stay present)


I even tried to make an "all stop shop" with the Too Hot bastard sword and failed. The proc rate with high double strike, constant haste boost, and Vanguard attack speed wasn't enough to maintain stacks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHNaom_eZ4E&feature=youtu.be



Fighter Kensai is in an even worse spot, as to get the enhanced critical range you have to go T5 in Kensai (30+ points) to get what Paladin Vanguard gives for free with Holy Sword.

Vanguard needs a a combination of better CC/DPS to be on-par with KoTC or Kensai.

[Arlathen]

I've made a short video to illustrate the difference in DPS between Vanguard and KoTC.....

This is really useful. What would be incredibly useful to me (and perhaps others) is seeing what staying Bastard Sword & Shield using KotC enhancements does, and where it lies on the line between the 38s and 43s tests from the initial post.

Any chance of another video? I think it's also fair to keep with the Constellation Bastard Sword for the test with its Vulnerability Debuff, I certainly would be using this as my main go-to Bsword weapon right now, even more so if I'm getting DR/Good bypass from KotC.

[kmoustakas]

I hear you and it makes me sad because the attack speed of vanguard feels good even though technically it isn't.

I'm currently trying to work on a pure paladin tank and having a sad time of it, simply I think because I'm trying to work vanguard into it.

[Buddha5440]

This is really useful. What would be incredibly useful to me (and perhaps others) is seeing what staying Bastard Sword & Shield using KotC enhancements does, and where it lies on the line between the 38s and 43s tests from the initial post.

Any chance of another video? I think it's also fair to keep with the Constellation Bastard Sword for the test with its Vulnerability Debuff, I certainly would be using this as my main go-to Bsword weapon right now, even more so if I'm getting DR/Good bypass from KotC.

The problem with KotC and B. swords is the limitations you have on getting it as a favored weapon (ie. no Eberron races or Morninglord) without that you lose a lot of bonuses (+7 to-hit/damage and up to 75 MP against undead evil outsider). They really need to add B. sword as an obtainable favored weapon via the KotC enhancements, Falchion would be a great addition as well.

[Arlathen]

The problem with KotC and B. swords is the limitations you have on getting it as a favored weapon (ie. no Eberron races or Morninglord) without that you lose a lot of bonuses (+7 to-hit/damage and up to 75 MP against undead evil outsider). They really need to add B. sword as an obtainable favored weapon via the KotC enhancements, Falchion would be a great addition as well.

Ahh, I keep forgetting about this, but my Vanguard has the benefit of being Aasimar Scourge and thus has access to Helm and Bswords as a Favoured weapon.

Looks like its time to get into video recording / editing :)

[Tobril]

Helm and some KoTC investment would help close the gap.

The next challenge is that weapons for THF with significantly more base damage exist.

Blackrazor and the Tail of Suulomades (wood elf) have vastly better base damage and no hand-and-a-half counterpart.

Even if you don't raid the non-upgraded Blackrazor is still 22 base damage higher than the Sanctity used in the video and relatively simple to acquire.


Trash fights are over before any significant vulnerability stacks can be applied.

There is some application for the Vanguard if your team is fresh and has not yet made a dedicated debuffer or happen to have much in the way of raid weapons.

[Tobril]

This is really useful. What would be incredibly useful to me (and perhaps others) is seeing what staying Bastard Sword & Shield using KotC enhancements does, and where it lies on the line between the 38s and 43s tests from the initial post.

Any chance of another video? I think it's also fair to keep with the Constellation Bastard Sword for the test with its Vulnerability Debuff, I certainly would be using this as my main go-to Bsword weapon right now, even more so if I'm getting DR/Good bypass from KotC.


You'll need to run a couple of times with Constellation due to the randomness of the debuffs. I stuck to the Strahd swords to make life a little easier for comparison purposes.

I tried really hard to make a "one stop shop" with Constellation using as much double strike and attack speed available without feat swaps. Someone with Shield Mastery would hit 100% double strike...even gaining an extra 8% from what's shown in the debuff video I doubt you'll be able to achieve and maintain dust+ooze+ash fully stacked.

[Tobril]

I hear you and it makes me sad because the attack speed of vanguard feels good even though technically it isn't.

I'm currently trying to work on a pure paladin tank and having a sad time of it, simply I think because I'm trying to work vanguard into it.


Pure paladin makes a really solid raid tank.

8 points for 2 second deflect arrows is great. You'll want a bit of KoTC for Divine Might as well.

I'll be around for ED raids all this week, feel free to hit me up for tank talk.

[Arlathen]

So, I did some testing on my character, simply swapping enhancements around. Gear, Filigree's, Feats, ED, Twists, all stayed the same. Active attacks outside of either Smite Evil or Exalted Smite were not used, as this was a single target DPS test. In both test cases, I was using Legendary Dreadnought ED and was constantly haste boosted and running Blitz.

Test 1:
41AP Vanguard / 8 AP KotC / 31AP Sacred Defender - Vanguard T5/Capstone, +20% Attack Speed
Results: 26s, 28s, 28s

Test 2:
41AP KotC / 8AP Vanguard / 31AP Sacred Defender - KotC T5/Capstone, +0% Attack Speed
Results: 44s, 46s, 45s

Soooo, in strict one-on-one situations the Vanguard Attack Speed clearly trumps the improvements that KotC brings in base damage, Light Damage-on-Hit and additional melee power, when using Bastard Sword and Shield.

Where the situation slightly gets murky is the effect that active attacks have - the additional effect of Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smites supported with gear making them regenerate alot faster to make them heavily usable, and using the Cleave attacks where the number of enemy mobs outweighs your Strikethrough percentage. And of course Holy Retribution, which as an AoE Instant Killer is an absolutely worthwhile reason to take KotC regardless of the weapon style you choose to play on your Paladin.

However, Tobril's original point and post are absolutely correct. Greatswords +KotC are much greater DPS than Bastard Swords +Vanguard. I have three different Paladin character's, and the DPS output of my THF'ing Paladin is phenomenal compared to my Vanguard character, in all situations.

Edit: On a personal note, I need to revisit my Vanguard AP setup to get more out of the Shield Bashing it seems, and look at gearing with the Summer Shield or the Best Defense instead of the Winter Shield. Another joyous round of Gear Tetris and fiddling to improve my character :)

[Kebtid]

So, you test and compare kotc and vanguard.

Did it not come to you to try and mix those 2?
You need maybe 4 ap in defender for lays and after that the tree becomes a ap sink for no benefit of relevance for r10 melees.
Yes even for r10 high skull raids you would prefer not using stance.
31 ap is nice for extra lays but it is to much of a ap sink to be efficient.

Try it, report if you like it.
Same for kensei, you so not spend ap into stance upgrades.
You go for att speed, chop, 1 stat trance and kensei bonuses.
It is still behind actual dps, but is something you can play with.

[Tobril]

So, you test and compare kotc and vanguard.

Did it not come to you to try and mix those 2?
You need maybe 4 ap in defender for lays and after that the tree becomes a ap sink for no benefit of relevance for r10 melees.
Yes even for r10 high skull raids you would prefer not using stance.
31 ap is nice for extra lays but it is to much of a ap sink to be efficient.

Try it, report if you like it.
Same for kensei, you so not spend ap into stance upgrades.
You go for att speed, chop, 1 stat trance and kensei bonuses.
It is still behind actual dps, but is something you can play with.


I tried to illustrate the remaining AP once you maxed out a single tree. There's a lot of opportunity cost that could go into things like Vistani/Falconry if you stick to the DPS trees.

For reaper six-person I'm currently running 41/24/12 KoTC/Defender/Fey. (When color spray is nerfed I'll go to 41/31/7)

It's been my experience that you won't fully stack vulnerable on trash/orange. The existence of Blackrazor/Tail further cements Vanguard into "fun, not good" for me.


T5 in Vanguard is nowhere close to Kensai or KoTC. Dedicated debuffers makes another strong case to go T4 at most into Vanguard.


I'd really like this tree to be stronger, but it's current state is B+ at best and aimed at people whose group are just getting started in the game or want to do something stylistically fun.

[Arlathen]

It's been my experience that you won't fully stack vulnerable on trash/orange. The existence of Blackrazor/Tail further cements Vanguard into "fun, not good" for me.

T5 in Vanguard is nowhere close to Kensai or KoTC. Dedicated debuffers makes another strong case to go T4 at most into Vanguard.


I've swapped a feat over for Improved Shield Bash, and taken the T5 +10% shield Bash to push my Shield Bashing up-to 60% proc chance with the Winter Shield. I didn't want to fuss on with Master's Touch Scrolls for my Tower Shield, but the reality is that my build is jam packed for DPS and Defense, so I had to give up some convenience to fit this in. Testing on the Ship Cannon I can now stack Disorientating Smash's Vulnerability upto 20 stacks without much of a problem, with just the built in 20% attack speed of Vanguard.

However, the second sentence I've quoted here is also still the reality. Especially if you consider the best 'DPS' Bastard Sword is the Shard of Constellation, which comes with its own Fetters/Vulnerability proccing and thus just makes the T5 Vanguard more redundant. As much as I love Divinity thematically, providing your own Vulnerability while questing is is serious help.

For context, my Vanguard is designed for:
- Tanking in Guild Raids, typically around Legendary Hard as a difficulty
- For DPS in Legendary Elite quests for gear hunts and helping people get Epic XP for TRing
- For DPS and Tanking in Low Reaper, helping people learn the ropes of Reaper and for getting this particular character to 21 Reaper pts for the important permanent HP bonuses.

The reality is that you don't take a Sword & Shield character to High Reaper trying to be DPS or trying to Tank. You either take a fully specced DPS THF character in KotC with Holy Retribution, or you take a dedicated tank spending 50AP+ in Sacred Defender.

[Carpone]

Great analysis.

In my experience, Vanguard is optimal when paired with Dwarf and Hoarfrost.

For KotC, if your goal is single-target DPS like raids then I recommend Halfling for 3 SA dice and dipping into the VKF tree using Pain+Suffering. If you're primarily questing for reaper XP, then you can't go wrong with Wood Elf + Tail of Suulomades.

So I think it really comes down to what raid weapons you have access to in order to make the most of your gameplay. Either way, they are both viable archetypes in the most difficult or challenging content.

[Arlathen]

So, you test and compare kotc and vanguard.

Did it not come to you to try and mix those 2?
You need maybe 4 ap in defender for lays and after that the tree becomes a ap sink for no benefit of relevance for r10 melees.
Yes even for r10 high skull raids you would prefer not using stance.
31 ap is nice for extra lays but it is to much of a ap sink to be efficient.

Try it, report if you like it.
Same for kensei, you so not spend ap into stance upgrades.
You go for att speed, chop, 1 stat trance and kensei bonuses.
It is still behind actual dps, but is something you can play with.

This is a no-go for me, personally. 31AP into Sacred Defender is the basis of good defence for my Vanguard because of the Tanking duties he undertakes in Guild Raids around LH difficulty.

- +10% HP
- +6 STR, +8 CON (My Vanguard is STR based)
- +600% Threat (Very Important)
- +35 PRR / MRR
- +10% Move Speed
- Quickened, Spell List cast Resurrection & Raise Dead
- +3% Dodge when using Tower Shields
- +4 Saves

[xBunny]

Thanks for your work on this. IMHO if speaking about vanguard - shield is a weapon too, and one you use in far from the best one. The Legendary Best Defense - hits like a truck. Plus AFAIK Vanguards still can twich fight - please correct me if I am wrong. From other side looks like Great Sword has better weapon choice than b-sword d-axe have. Or mby you tried to use weapons that would be as close as possible to compare trees only?

[Tobril]

Thanks for your work on this. IMHO if speaking about vanguard - shield is a weapon too, and one you use in far from the best one. The Legendary Best Defense - hits like a truck. Plus AFAIK Vanguards still can twich fight - please correct me if I am wrong. From other side looks like Great Sword has better weapon choice than b-sword d-axe have. Or mby you tried to use weapons that would be as close as possible to compare trees only?

A better offensive shield would have improved the time.

I still stand by the auto-vulnerable as what made the two anywhere in the same league. An even more eye opening test would show with/without the tier 5 debuff option.

“Twitch” isn’t really a thing anymore. Attack animation speed was normalized a few updates ago.

I selected the best available bastard sword that didn’t have a widely varying debuff. The great sword was the “equivalent”, both are from the same raid. If you look at syranian, constellation, or any equal tier hand and a half weapon, they tend to have about 2/3 base damage of the thf version.

Even with the attack speed and shield bash, the vanguard isn’t going to output as much damage as the thf weapons. There’s also much better thf weapons available with no equivalent hand and a half option.

This tree is best suited for hardcore, deflect arrows splash on a tank, or entry level raid groups with little/no other sources of vulnerability.

[xBunny]

“Twitch” isn’t really a thing anymore. Attack animation speed was normalized a few updates ago.
I thought it was fixed for THF only. Think I was able to "twitch" on my Vanguard week ago, but I never done it before(played warlocks\ranged mainly), so I might be mistaken. I just saw more "dense" dmg output while moving here and there. Also I heard (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/515166-Reaper-Endgame-11-6-3-bear?p=6383195&viewfull=1#post6383195)bears still can twitch. Also I heard q-staff animation was not fixed, so twitchin might work.
Looks Vanguard just has more melee CC option. Stunning Shield works on allot of stuff, other stuns don't, though it is single target. Don't know about Shield Champion Shield bash, because I didn't see much of it(mby due to low Dcs). Also Shield Rush - another CC, not great though.
Wander if 41\31 Kotc\Vanguard B-sword PDK would work any better.

[Tobril]

Wander if 41\31 Kotc\Vanguard B-sword PDK would work any better.


That would be fine if you're going for style/fun.


Otherwise...

If raiding, take the shield off, put on a big weapon.

If questing have 12 points in Feydark. You can trip almost anything that doesn't color spray.