Some tweaks to Deepwood Stalker, without increase Power Creep

[Requiro]

Like title said:
These are some tweaks to Deepwood Stalker, without increase Power Creep, but utilizing (almost) useless Ranger ability: Wild Empathy

About Wild Empathy – DWS have opportunity to turn this almost useless ability, into useful one. But general speaking it’s too costly, very inefficient and limited use (Ranger have only few Wild Empathy uses).

So this is suggestion to improved that not great developed but overall good idea:

(cosmetic change) Core 1: Add +1 Wild empathy also here

(cosmetic change) Core 6: Add additional +3 Wild empathy instead of +1

(major change) Empathy Healing (Tier 2): Improved version - 3 Ranks, each cost 1 AP, still require Increase Empathy from Tier 1:
1st grant Lesser Vigor in exchange of one Wild Empathy and Wild Empathy regeneration in 1 per 120 second
2nd grant Vigor in exchange of one Wild Empathy and Wild Empathy regeneration in 1 per 90 second
3rd grant Mass Vigor in exchange of one Wild Empathy and Wild Empathy regeneration in 1 per 60 second

With these changes, from level 1 you gain more Wild Empathy (Core 1) that can be exchange to healing you and all party members with (theoretically) infinity source of healing (slow regeneration of that ability) starting from level 2. It should be good in low levels and ok in middle levels of Heroic, but average (at best) in late Heroic. And of course, like other Heroic abilities, definitely insufficient in Epic. But still remain (theoretically) infinite ability, that will help low levels Rangers to survive in low heroic levels and maybe some use of AP in multiclass for DWS.

And the best part is, that will not increase Power Creep.

So what do you think?

[Buddha5440]

If you're going to tweak any ranger tree, it should be AA. As for adding more replenishable healing options... NO. There are already far too many healing options for classes that should not have them. Bring back the necessity for a cleric/fvs in a tough quest to keep people alive.

[Requiro]

If you're going to tweak any ranger tree, it should be AA. As for adding more replenishable healing options... NO. There are already far too many healing options for classes that should not have them. Bring back the necessity for a cleric/fvs in a tough quest to keep people alive.

You missing the point. DWS ALREADY have this healing options in tree, but right now it's too costly for what we get in return. My suggestion just makes it useful.
And BTW, Ranger class already have weak healing options (by spells). My proposal only widens this range.

[Buddha5440]

Nope, didn't miss your point: I just disagree with it. I use the current empathic healing (vigor) at times as well as the cure wounds spells we get as rangers. The class should not have an endless/regenerative healing option.

[Requiro]

(...)The class should not have an endless/regenerative healing option.

Why?

And what class? Ranger or all classes? (if all classes then look at barbarian, PM+Echoes, Aasimar Capstone, ect.)

If you use that Lesser Vigor ability, then fine, apparently you like flavor. I even heard of someone using Wild empathy, lol.
But the truth remain the same: flavor ability (in this case sink AP hole) remain useless, no matter how you call it.

[Buddha5440]

Maybe we should just put in a cheat code...ctrl+r instantly heals you. Pretty much every class has a self heal option and that was a huge mistake. If you need more options for healing, try grouping. At low levels you are supposed to be vulnerable and weak. Adventure, overcome, and advance and you will be tougher. That's what RPG's are all about, although DDO stopped being a MMORPG a long time ago as there is almost no RP anymore since every class can do almost everything except pick locks and disable traps (but most of those are laughable nowadays so it doesn't matter).

[Aelonwy]

Bring back the necessity for a cleric/fvs in a tough quest to keep people alive.

I disagree and my main is a cleric. When a cleric/fvs is necessary to keep people alive that is also all they're allowed to do. In the beginning of my time on this game I was treated like the DPS' hireling, a sidekick whose only purpose for being there was to keep people topped off and save them from their own recklessness. I loathed it. I hated the mentality that "roles" generated in other players. I play TO PLAY not to fill your or anyone one else's definition of MY CHARACTER. Yes I heal, yes I buff, yes I raise dead or resurrect if your that heck-bent on aggro-ing everything but I don't ever want to go back to that version of DDO.

I agree with the OP DWS's Vigor enhancement could be made somewhat more useful. Does it need to regenerate 1 every 60 seconds? Hmm perhaps not but I could see 1 every 90 seconds on the third rank only. Regenerating an action over time has been added to smites, turns, songs, etc this is not so different.

Also it is not a self only ability. Its a group and thus grouping beneficial ability. I support abilities that can be leveraged for more team work without pigeonholing anyone. Thank you.

[Buddha5440]

Last I checked, rangers can use cure light/moderate/serious wounds wands at lvs 1/3/5 as well as cast cure light/moderate/serious wounds. Why do they need another "infinite ability" that allows them to heal? That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing rangers get Echoes of Power as a class feat at higher levels...Oh, wait, they already get that from the AA tree as a Tier 1 ability. There's your "infinite ability" to heal.

[Requiro]

I disagree and my main is a cleric. When a cleric/fvs is necessary to keep people alive that is also all they're allowed to do. In the beginning of my time on this game I was treated like the DPS' hireling, a sidekick whose only purpose for being there was to keep people topped off and save them from their own recklessness. I loathed it. I hated the mentality that "roles" generated in other players. I play TO PLAY not to fill your or anyone one else's definition of MY CHARACTER. Yes I heal, yes I buff, yes I raise dead or resurrect if your that heck-bent on aggro-ing everything but I don't ever want to go back to that version of DDO.

I agree with the OP DWS's Vigor enhancement could be made somewhat more useful. Does it need to regenerate 1 every 60 seconds? Hmm perhaps not but I could see 1 every 90 seconds on the third rank only. Regenerating an action over time has been added to smites, turns, songs, etc this is not so different.

Also it is not a self only ability. Its a group and thus grouping beneficial ability. I support abilities that can be leveraged for more team work without pigeonholing anyone. Thank you.

Thanks ;)

Maybe 1 per 60 is too much. Even 1 per 120 second is ok if they bump Lesser Vigor to Vigor and lower the cost.

[Buddha5440]

Basically what both of you are asking for is to make a game that is already easy even easier (people running R10 on first life toons...Not Cool).. You can spin it any way you want, but that is what you are asking for.

[Aelonwy]

Basically what both of you are asking for is to make a game that is already easy even easier (people running R10 on first life toons...Not Cool).. You can spin it any way you want, but that is what you are asking for.

You do realize that your opinion is no more or less valid than anyone else's yes? I'm not trying to be adversarial but you give the impression you have some kind of veto power to suggestions.

Its a suggestion, you give your opinion, maybe why your opinion is what it is and let other people do the same. Or not? if you feel the suggestion threatens your play-style somehow or makes the game worse for you in some measurable way. I just don't see it that way. Does it go a little too far? perhaps. Is there a middle-ground where the suggestion could make this ability more functional and worthwhile for this player and others while simultaneously not threatening the balance of the entire game? Quite likely. You can spin it any way you want... but its still just a suggestion not a demand, an idea not something about to happen in an Official Discussions thread.

Do the devs take ideas from Suggestions? Yes but seemingly few and far between and not often without discussing them on Lammania.

[Xgya]

I disagree and my main is a cleric. When a cleric/fvs is necessary to keep people alive that is also all they're allowed to do. In the beginning of my time on this game I was treated like the DPS' hireling, a sidekick whose only purpose for being there was to keep people topped off and save them from their own recklessness. I loathed it. I hated the mentality that "roles" generated in other players. I play TO PLAY not to fill your or anyone one else's definition of MY CHARACTER. Yes I heal, yes I buff, yes I raise dead or resurrect if your that heck-bent on aggro-ing everything but I don't ever want to go back to that version of DDO

This. ALL OF IT. All of this.
I know just how much it costs to remain polite when talking about it.

I hate the BYOH mentality, but nowhere NEAR as much as the pigeonholing period of DDO and Clerics being the mandatory pigeons.

As for the OP's suggestion, here's another: give another use to those charges.
It's a divine ability unique to divine casters without Turn Undead.
Give them the Turn Undead treatment and give the tree that has the biggest focus on those some extra ways to use them. (Do the same for Druids in their caster tree?)
THEN, give the regen to some enhancement higher up.

If the healing becomes their only use, and it makes for a decent use, it doesn't really encourage more gameplay differences as much as makes it a permanently available healing option.

[Aelonwy]

If the healing becomes their only use, and it makes for a decent use, it doesn't really encourage more gameplay differences as much as makes it a permanently available healing option.

Interesting line of thinking. What other uses? Something uniquely DWS or maybe something versus Favored Enemies?

[Requiro]

This. ALL OF IT. All of this.
I know just how much it costs to remain polite when talking about it.

I hate the BYOH mentality, but nowhere NEAR as much as the pigeonholing period of DDO and Clerics being the mandatory pigeons.

As for the OP's suggestion, here's another: give another use to those charges.
It's a divine ability unique to divine casters without Turn Undead.
Give them the Turn Undead treatment and give the tree that has the biggest focus on those some extra ways to use them. (Do the same for Druids in their caster tree?)
THEN, give the regen to some enhancement higher up.

If the healing becomes their only use, and it makes for a decent use, it doesn't really encourage more gameplay differences as much as makes it a permanently available healing option.

It's a great idea! I wish Devs add another use of that useless ability (Wild Empathy). I'm all in - whatever it could be.

My suggestion concetrate (like almost all my suggestion) on improvments without a lot of devs time to do it.


people running R10 on first life toons...

That's interesting. Can you share source?

[Buddha5440]

You do realize that your opinion is no more or less valid than anyone else's yes? I'm not trying to be adversarial but you give the impression you have some kind of veto power to suggestions.

Its a suggestion, you give your opinion, maybe why your opinion is what it is and let other people do the same. Or not? if you feel the suggestion threatens your play-style somehow or makes the game worse for you in some measurable way. I just don't see it that way. Does it go a little too far? perhaps. Is there a middle-ground where the suggestion could make this ability more functional and worthwhile for this player and others while simultaneously not threatening the balance of the entire game? Quite likely. You can spin it any way you want... but its still just a suggestion not a demand, an idea not something about to happen in an Official Discussions thread.

Do the devs take ideas from Suggestions? Yes but seemingly few and far between and not often without discussing them on Lammania.

How do I give the impression that I have some kind of veto power??? I am simply stating that asking for a class that already has multiple healing options to get another, renewable, option is not a good idea. There are already far too many healing options that make no sense and should not (IMHO) exist. If I forgot to put the "IMHO" part in the previous posts, my bad. I mistakenly thought that most people understand that anything on a forum (pretty much by definition) is OPINION.

[Xgya]

Interesting line of thinking. What other uses? Something uniquely DWS or maybe something versus Favored Enemies?

That's a decent follow up for sure.
Making it so it works on any favored enemy is a good start (so long as they fix the DC). Elemental Domain Clerics can turn/destroy elementals, and while it doesn't get THAT much more useful during gameplay, the times it does make it a pretty fun addition.

Give them a targeting ability that gives you your Favored Enemy bonuses on that target (or gives it to you again if you already had those). Call it Nemesis. 'The other undead, I hunt. This one, I HATE.' It literally removes your Empathy in order to channel Hatred.

Or a Ranger's equivalent of Smite, based of Ranger levels (so levels of wild empathy make sense)?

[Requiro]

How do I give the impression that I have some kind of veto power??? I am simply stating that asking for a class that already has multiple healing options to get another, renewable, option is not a good idea. There are already far too many healing options that make no sense and should not (IMHO) exist. If I forgot to put the "IMHO" part in the previous posts, my bad. I mistakenly thought that most people understand that anything on a forum (pretty much by definition) is OPINION.

Lots of classes, races ED (and other) have some kind of self healing. Devs are not willing to turn back to days when we all was waiting for Cleric to join group.
The problem is, some of self healing are amazing good (like Ravager or PM) and other are waste of time (like DWS or Shiradi Champion)

Is my suggestion is well developed and perfectly balanced? No - but this is suggestion forum, place where we share new ideas.

But again: Can you share source where you see first life toon doing R10?

[Buddha5440]

Lots of classes, races ED (and other) have some kind of self healing. Devs are not willing to turn back to days when we all was waiting for Cleric to join group.
The problem is, some of self healing are amazing good (like Ravager or PM) and other are waste of time (like DWS or Shiradi Champion)

Is my suggestion is well developed and perfectly balanced? No - but this is suggestion forum, place where we share new ideas.

But again: Can you share source where you see first life toon doing R10?

So we should add more self healing options (IMHO...NO)... and yes, you suggested something based on your opinion and I posted my view against it based on my opinion. That should have been the end of it.

As for the first life toons running R10....search the forums. There are plenty of threads about first life toons running reaper content. I'm already accused of having a veto power on suggestions so I don't want to taint anyone's post about reaper runs.

[Requiro]

So we should add more self healing options

No. Improve existing one, or remove it and put something useful in their place. If you have any suggestion (other then remove all self healing but Clerics), I will be pleased to read it.


As for the first life toons running R10....search the forums. There are plenty of threads about first life toons running reaper content.

My search-fu is weak, sorry. I can't find any threads about first life that play R10. R1 sure, but R10? Nope. If you can share at least one, then please, do it. I want try that build.

[Pandjed]

Adding more options to Wild Empathy might be good, as the DWS lacks one thing more than anything else: An identity.

AA is a bow-centered tree that uses spellpower (even elemental spell power, though nothing with the ranger synergizes with that, which is a bit of a waste), and Tempest is the TWF tree. While it is good to have a more broad tree with two specialized ones, the DWS don't really offer an interesting mechanic to be more than a supplementary tree for one of the other trees or even the universals (looking at you, Inquis... and even Falconeer, as it's a nice melee+range-hybrid tree and fills the same niche as DWS, even though there aren't really many reasons to switch from ranged to melee or vice versa).

Or maybe it would be worthwhile to look into additional effects with the current HoT-effect. Like an empowering effect for companions, like granting them your favorite enemies for a minute, or so.

[Requiro]

Adding more options to Wild Empathy might be good, as the DWS lacks one thing more than anything else: An identity.

AA is a bow-centered tree that uses spellpower (even elemental spell power, though nothing with the ranger synergizes with that, which is a bit of a waste), and Tempest is the TWF tree. While it is good to have a more broad tree with two specialized ones, the DWS don't really offer an interesting mechanic to be more than a supplementary tree for one of the other trees or even the universals (looking at you, Inquis... and even Falconeer, as it's a nice melee+range-hybrid tree and fills the same niche as DWS, even though there aren't really many reasons to switch from ranged to melee or vice versa).

Or maybe it would be worthwhile to look into additional effects with the current HoT-effect. Like an empowering effect for companions, like granting them your favorite enemies for a minute, or so.

Yes. This is good idea. DWS right now act only as supplement to AA or Tempest (quite powerful to be honest).
The problem is, if they add something to Tier 5 and Core 6 (the only way to not be supplement to AA or Tempest) that will require Power Creep.

If they add something there, great. If don't I will not cry.
What I wish is changes Tier 1 and 2 DWS abilities that right now are very outdated and mostly useless. Same as Core 1 and Core 2.

[Smokewolf]

Adding more options to Wild Empathy might be good, as the DWS lacks one thing more than anything else: An identity.

AA is a bow-centered tree that uses spellpower (even elemental spell power, though nothing with the ranger synergizes with that, which is a bit of a waste), and Tempest is the TWF tree. While it is good to have a more broad tree with two specialized ones, the DWS don't really offer an interesting mechanic to be more than a supplementary tree for one of the other trees or even the universals (looking at you, Inquis... and even Falconeer, as it's a nice melee+range-hybrid tree and fills the same niche as DWS, even though there aren't really many reasons to switch from ranged to melee or vice versa).

Or maybe it would be worthwhile to look into additional effects with the current HoT-effect. Like an empowering effect for companions, like granting them your favorite enemies for a minute, or so.

+1

In my experience, no-one plays a Ranger unless they have to, be it for completionist or what ever. Its always been one of classes I’ve dreaded playing in Heroics for the amount of time required to reach 20. That in itself is pretty telling of the state of the class / enhancement trees as a whole. Hell, I’d rather play a pure fighter than a Ranger in heroics as at least then i can kill large groups without waiting for cooldowns.

That being said, Yes I know that (Epic) ranged (burst) and single target (melee) damage can be really good but that doesn't make it any easier to level up, much less run one solo. Simply put, a Ranger often cant run without a group, not at least without moving along at a snails pace due to minimal healing and ability cooldowns. This is especially true for new players lacking gear, reaper points and past lives.