Race Stat detriments. Just how bad in the long run?

[LamiaCritter]

So, I'm gonna try to come back to DDO.... Again.. In a few months, probably when the Shifter race is released (I think w/ Feywild).
The Shifter has a -2 INT penalty. My intended class, Wizard, uses INT as its class primary stat.

Just how much would I be screwing myself over by going Shifter Wizard even with the penalty? Is it negligible in the long run, or am I going to face severe difficulties?

[Stravix]

So, I'm gonna try to come back to DDO.... Again.. In a few months, probably when the Shifter race is released (I think w/ Feywild).
The Shifter has a -2 INT penalty. My intended class, Wizard, uses INT as its class primary stat.

Just how much would I be screwing myself over by going Shifter Wizard even with the penalty? Is it negligible in the long run, or am I going to face severe difficulties?

Honestly depends on what type of wizard you wanna be. If you wanna be a DC caster, then it'll hurt, but be about a 3 DC loss at the end of the day. If you wanna be an EK Wiz, then it could work alright.

[straytext]

It really only comes into play if you're trying to max DCs which, who cares on a first life? If you just want to blow things up with fireballs and throw acid in troll faces while swinging a greatsword or watching your skeleton demolish things for you, you generally wouldn't notice a difference.

[LamiaCritter]

It really only comes into play if you're trying to max DCs which, who cares on a first life? If you just want to blow things up with fireballs and throw acid in troll faces while swinging a greatsword or watching your skeleton demolish things for you, you generally wouldn't notice a difference.

Hummm, I suppose to phrase it a bit differently,

I'm not one of the minmaxers. I'm a fairly casual player. Will I take some stuff that benefits me? Obviously some of it. But I won't be like.. farming/ grinding for weeks and weeks just to get a single piece of gear that'll increase my whosie-whatsit stat by +1
To better ask,
Can I still be competent in later levels with a -2 penalty?

[rabidfox]

Can I still be competent in later levels with a -2 penalty?

If you're doing low skull stuff, it won't matter. Even with high skull stuff where the occasional DC that misses matters more, it can be offset with gear. But since you say you're casual, you're not likely to be doing content at a setting where you'd notice the difference.

[straytext]

If you're doing low skull stuff, it won't matter. Even with high skull stuff where the occasional DC that misses matters more, it can be offset with gear. But since you say you're casual, you're not likely to be doing content at a setting where you'd notice the difference.

This is the thing. If someone is coming to the boards to ask this kind of question, I'm assuming they're not even close to being ready to run reapers, nor have the ambition to do so.


I'm not one of the minmaxers. I'm a fairly casual player. Will I take some stuff that benefits me? Obviously some of it. But I won't be like.. farming/ grinding for weeks and weeks just to get a single piece of gear that'll increase my whosie-whatsit stat by +1
To better ask,
Can I still be competent in later levels with a -2 penalty?

Yeah, you'll be fine. Your INT score affects:
1. How many skill points you get to spend (wizards have plenty)
2. how many spell points you have (you'll have lots and you have many ways to replenish them)
3. Your DCs [Difficulty Checks] (which mostly only come into play with spells like Finger of Death or Phantasmal Killer where either your DC can beat the target's save or it can't. If it can, they die. If it can't they don't die and get very angry with you.)

A -2 INT is equivalent to 1 less to your DC score in the end. Is that 1 gonna make a difference in Epic Normal? Probably not. In 10 skull Epic Reaper? Yes. Are you planning to run 10 skull Epic Reaper? I doubt it. Not today at least.

Here's the thing, this is a new toon, for a relatively newb player. Don't get caught up in the conversations you see on the forums about which whatsit is over powered or whatever. DDO always has 2 types of players. Players that have been doing this for 14 years and think everyone else is at their level too. And then newbs who think they need to immediately be at the level of 14 year veterans. You don't.

Don't sweat the small stuff on a toon you might not bother playing past level 8. -2 INT on a first life toon is small stuff.

Sure, ask questions. Don't go making a Wizard with a 16 Charisma score. But, also, don't let yourself feel beholden to what 14 year veterans are always arguing about. You'll get to level 30 and still be wearing a level 4 belt. And it'll be fine. You won't be amazing but it won't be the difference between living and having your soul stone in someone's pocket. Not standing in front of a Kobold Shaman with a propensity for throwing lightning bolts will be the difference.

See the wiki on DC (https://ddowiki.com/page/Difficulty_class)s for when you decide to reincarnate into a DC caster (just so you can make real use of 1 or 2 spells).

[droid327]

The only time it really matters is if it prevents you from having enough of an attribute to take a feat when you need to...say, if your build needs Precision and THF at L1 to fit everything else, but you're a -STR race and getting to 15 starting str means you can't make 13 DEX on a 28 point first life char. If that all makes sense.

But those are all really edge cases. INT isn't a req for any feats you'll want to take, so like others have said it's fine for anything but extreme min max content.

[Nazanin]

Fyi you are not -2 behind, you are -6 behind. Starting int 16 vs gnome being 20 + 2 from enhancement (level gated but still)

It's pretty bad.

[droid327]

Fyi you are not -2 behind, you are -6 behind. Starting int 16 vs gnome being 20 + 2 from enhancement (level gated but still)

It's pretty bad.

First lifers wont have the RAP to take all the Gnome cores, especially on a non-DC-caster build. Its doubtful that +2 would be on the table even if they did go Gnome

[Nazanin]

First lifers wont have the RAP to take all the Gnome cores, especially on a non-DC-caster build. Its doubtful that +2 would be on the table even if they did go Gnome

Rap is irrelevant, bad advice

[ShifterThePirate]

If you're a casual player and not a minmaxers you'll do fine. Just have fun with it.
You'll be needing the casting while raging enhancement though! Which is racial I think?

[Weemadarthur]

First lifers wont have the RAP to take all the Gnome cores, especially on a non-DC-caster build. Its doubtful that +2 would be on the table even if they did go Gnome

For 6 AP I cant think of anything much better to take than +2 int for a wiz. That said the chances are in the grand scheme of things it wont make or break a build at cap. Providing the OP isn't intending to run top end content on the highest difficulty he should be fine starting with 16 int rather than 18 or 20.

As a warning to the OP though if you don't have Ravenloft or Sharn expect to struggle in any newer content as new content does seem very much balanced for players who have the gear from at least one of those packs.

[AbyssalMage]

This is the thing. If someone is coming to the boards to ask this kind of question, I'm assuming they're not even close to being ready to run reapers, nor have the ambition to do so.
Reaper is the baseline for DDO. So if he wants to group he will be joining Reaper groups 9 of 10 times so answering any question needs to be in this context. If he solo's/plays with a group of friends the answer is slightly more flexible.


Yeah, you'll be fine. Your INT score affects:
1. How many skill points you get to spend (wizards have plenty)
2. how many spell points you have (you'll have lots and you have many ways to replenish them)
3. Your DCs [Difficulty Checks] (which mostly only come into play with spells like Finger of Death or Phantasmal Killer where either your DC can beat the target's save or it can't. If it can, they die. If it can't they don't die and get very angry with you.)
Mostly true. #2 isn't correct. Wizards teach you about spell management. Some adventures are very stingy on shrines making grouping necessary (oh, and look, it will most likely be a Reaper group). Reaper does make the game slightly easier once you have accumulated the rXP but that is a long term goal. But I expect SSG to nerf lower reaper again for newer players in the coming year because of the forumites so...


A -2 INT is equivalent to 1 less to your DC score in the end. Is that 1 gonna make a difference in Epic Normal? Probably not. In 10 skull Epic Reaper? Yes. Are you planning to run 10 skull Epic Reaper? I doubt it. Not today at least.

Here's the thing, this is a new toon, for a relatively newb player. Don't get caught up in the conversations you see on the forums about which whatsit is over powered or whatever. DDO always has 2 types of players. Players that have been doing this for 14 years and think everyone else is at their level too. And then newbs who think they need to immediately be at the level of 14 year veterans. You don't.
Well, forumites dislike you being as good as the 14 year veteran so any time this occurs expect it to get nerfed. (RIP Warlock, Paladin 1.0, Barbarian, Inquisitor, Mechanic, and to any future nerfs which are coming, just read the forums).


Don't sweat the small stuff on a toon you might not bother playing past level 8. -2 INT on a first life toon is small stuff.
Aye, don't sweat the min/max challenge. Have fun! I personally enjoy the EK build and highly recommend it now that I have played it. It isn't godly but is extremely better than I thought. It handles r1 to 3 fairly decently even without rXP points while grouping and does fine in Elite when solo.

[Enoach]

I'm going to come in from a perspective from Playing G.I.M.P. characters that don't Min/Max and at times need to work with 3 classes that don't often synergize so you can't go max in a single attribute because you won't know how many levels you will have.

Running Heroics even with a 14 starting Int you can still land spells. You may need to be more selective on what you cast against and you may need to use more prepping spells (such as Hypnotism for will save adjustments)

The advantage the Wizard has is being able to switch up the spells to best beat the saves of the mobs. So if you are one that isn't use to switching spells up, you may find this not to your liking.


I think the biggest hit for someone playing a wizard will be in the skills especially if they are use to a wide variety of skill points. Personally I think skill based classes like rogue, artificer, bard and ranger will see this as a bigger deal.

It will still be doable - not the best, but with a little prep work you will find you are successful.

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Now if you are more and EK style wizard, I don't think you will see much difference in how they play as it comes to wizard, likely more noticeable will be the benefits of the melee side of the Race if you can take advantage of the skill tree.

[Buddha5440]

To OP, since you're not a min-maxer, it's irrelevant. I have a Pally who's highest ability score (Str) is only 47. He has no heroic past lives and only 4 Epic past lives and he has run almost everything but Ravenloft/Sharn on EE solo (RL/Sharn on EH). Disregard most of what you will hear on the forums as the factual advice they give you is BS if you are a casual player and just in it for the fun.

Bottom line, a "gimp" build in the hands of a good player can still be a decent build.

P.S. My Pally has NO grinded gear, everything except his Epic Voice of the Master is Cannith Crafted.

[FlavoredSoul]

Disregard most of the advice in this thread, especially from people using their first life melee toon experience to give advice on a caster class.

First thing to understand is that regardless of if you are a Nuker, CC, or instakill spec, EVERY caster is a DC caster, this is because evasion mobs are extremely common at high levels and you will have zero ways to combat them if you can't either overcome their reflex or CC/instakill them. Usually if you can hit a mob's weak save you can get some kind of CC off on it so that helps a bit.

Even if you go EK you're missing out on so much power by not being able to rely on your CC spells, an EK that can't hit with spells should just play a paladin or other pure melee class instead.

For heroic and early epic leveling it's not really a huge deal to be absolutely maxed on DCs, though a few places can get hairy in that level range, like Heroic Sharn (15-16) and Epic Catacombs (23) have pretty high save evasion mobs. But really it's Legendary 30+ content where the DC requirements become mandatory for playing a caster class.

Based on the current Sharn DC requirements (maybe Feywild won't be as strict but I doubt it) if you plan on running endgame content on Elite or reaper, yes even R1 you need to basically be maxed on stats (DCs) from Destiny/class/gear to be able to hit anything at all, the people saying you don't need to max DCs until R10 are just wrong. My previous Sorc life as a human (neutral on starting cha) required me to have a nearly maxed endgame caster gear set, maxing DCs from enhancements, +2 augment, and as much DCs as I could get from destiny while still in draconic ED to reliably hit reflex mobs in R1-3 Sharn, I have no racial past lives, 39 reaper points, and only a +5 CHA tome though I was not getting max DCs from sentient weapon, 125+ DCs were still not no fail in R6 Sharn. I could squeeze out 2 from a better tome, 1 or 2 more from reaper grind, and a few more from sentient weapon and racial AP. If you're running without a casting stat Tome or much racial/reaper AP taking -2 int instead of a neutral or +2 int race may force you to run on hard instead of elite.

Now It could be that I'm simply not as good at building a caster as I am with a Barbarian or Rogue (my preferred classes for R10 endgame)

In endgame every DC counts, even on R1.

Now if you just want to run a caster in hard and normal, or run an EK in low reaper then just do whatever you want.

[Buddha5440]

Again, as a casual player, disregard almost everything you are told are necessities from those who mention anything Reaper. Reaper is not the new normal and you can do just fine without running anything, ever, on Reaper. Any build can be useful especially since almost every build nowadays can self-heal, DPS, Insta-kill, CC, everything except pick locks/disable traps. Anyone who says you have to max this stat/ability/skill, is just wrong. Have fun and understand that missing a few points in an ability score at creation will NOT doom you to failure :)

[Zretch]

First lifers wont have the RAP to take all the Gnome cores, especially on a non-DC-caster build. Its doubtful that +2 would be on the table even if they did go Gnome

You need a grand total of 6 AP, that's not exactly a stretch over 16 levels on a pale master / EK build. Racial cores don't have the standard 10, 20, 30, 40 ap requirements that enhancement trees do.

I think people have things a bit backwards. When you're first life, you want to take advantage of all the "easy" power you can get, because you won't have past lives, gear, etc, etc. Starting off with a race that doesn't work well with your chosen class will just make things more difficult. 6 Int won't make the difference between an awesome build and a scuffed build, but being first life with an admitted adversion to grinding for gear for small gains, he will hit a difficulty where he will have to be very selective on what mobs he throw what spells at (go after weak saves), or he'll drain is mana bar dry with resist after resist. DC casting is purely a game of many, many small +1 increments all put together.

Stay in lower difficulties, get into the Magistar destiny when you hit epics ASAP, and the OP will be OK. If he's just doing this to get to 20, then things get easier. Saves in EE+ difficulties are FAR higher than than are in Heroic or EH/EN.

[Gregen]

My advice is to try it out and see for yourself. People can talk all day about how you'll under-perform or how you'll be just fine, but there's a lot of variables in how a wizard can be played and a lot of difficulties that quests can be played on. It's not so bad if you try out a build for a while and decide you don't like it. And it's awesome if you decide you do like it.

[Bacab]

The only time it really matters is if it prevents you from having enough of an attribute to take a feat when you need to...say, if your build needs Precision and THF at L1 to fit everything else, but you're a -STR race and getting to 15 starting str means you can't make 13 DEX on a 28 point first life char. If that all makes sense.

But those are all really edge cases. INT isn't a req for any feats you'll want to take, so like others have said it's fine for anything but extreme min max content.

Great point

Also, I have to spread around etc etc

[ShifterThePirate]

Precision doesn't work while Raging... so you might want to pass that 13 Dex and put more points in Int. Or you'll be having to turn it on over and over again after a Rage. But if you're not planning on Raging a lot it's fine of course.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Are you just looking for a racial life or do you want to play it at cap in high R raids?

If you’re looking for an optimized build, then go with a race that matches the class you want to play.

if you’re just looking to knock out the racial lives then don’t worry about it because Heroic isn’t that big a deal for DCs (especially once you’re wearing Ravenloft and/or Sharn heroic gear). Play the class that you enjoy and don’t worry as much about DCs. At worst, you’ll have to recast a spell occasionally. But you’re a Pale Master with vast self healing abilities, so you’ll have some extra wiggle room for play mistakes and spell miscasts.

Edit: I enjoy Sorcerer and it’s easy and fun for Heroic leveling. I did my Half Orc lives in Sorcerer even though they’re clearly not suited for that race. I still had fun and it was still easy.