A Simple Way to Improve Elemental DPS Arcane Spells

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

A Simple Way to Improve Elemental DPS Arcane Spells

Arcane casting in DDO could be greatly enhanced and made much more fun by these simple changes.

The first is to change all elemental arcane spells to selectable casts based on elemental choice.
for example, Fireball becomes Elemental ball with a selector 'Acid, Ice, Electric, Fire'
So a wizard who wants to cast fireball memories the elemental ball spell as fireball, lvl 3 and etc.
If that wizard went acid instead, they memorize Acidball, lvl3 and etc.

This would allow for the removal of spells that are identical but named differently -
so Acid Blast scroll and spell goes away as a unique entity and becomes part of the new 'elemental ball' spell. this would add an ice and electric version.

Why do this - It would greatly add to the viability of wizard/sorc builds and get out of the cookie cutter 'fire sorc is the go to because of meteor swarm' - would allow the other elements to perform equally to fire on either a wizard or a sorcerer.

And we do this for all tiers of magic

Level 1
Elemental Spray (contains all 4 elements based on Acid Spray spell; acid, cold, electric, fire)
Elemental Bolt (contains all 4 of the bolt spells, to be memorized by the wizard as Shocking Bolt, Freezing Bolt, etc)

level 2
Elemental Burst (contains all 4 elements based on scorch spell, so fire, acid, ice etc)
Elemental Ray (contains all 4 elements based on scorhing ray spell, so acid, ice, electric)

level 3
Elemental Ball (contains all 4 elements based on fireball spell; so acid, cold, electric, fire)
Elemental bolt (contains all 4 elements based on lightning bolts spell; acid, cold, electric, fire)

level 4
Elemental wall (contains all 4 elements based on Wall of Fire; acid, cold, electric, fire)

level 5
Elemental Rain (contains all 4 elements based on acid rain; acid, cold, electric, fire)
Elemental Cone (contains all 4 elements based on cone of cold; acid, cold, electric, fire)
Elemental Pulse (contains all 4 elements based on Electric Surge and Biting Cold, which exist, just add Acid and fire)

level 6
Elemental Fog (contains all 4 elements based on Acid Fog; acid, cold, electric, fire)
Chain Elements (contains all 4 elements based on Chain Lightning; acid, cold, electric, fire)

level 7
Delayed Blast Elemental Ball (contains all 4 elements based on Delayed blast fireball; acid, cold, electric, fire)

level 8
Elemental Ray (contains all 4 elements based on polar ray; acid, cold, electric, fire)

level 9
Elemental Swarm (contains all 4 elements based on meteor swarm, with 1/2 elemental 1/2 bludgeon; acid, cold, electric, fire)


These changes are in line with DDO as a video game and the newer Dungeons and Dragons 5e ruleset. When the original spells were created way back video games weren't a thing - spells have evolved as the game has evolved. It would be an incredible quality of life change for a caster to be allowed an elemental choice - to be an acid sorc for example without being kneecapped by acid spells being the worst arcane spells in the game (as an example).

[zsospeck666]

As much as I would love to have a separate choice for each element for every damage spell I don't think it would be anywhere close to simple.
Having an elemental selection on 1 spell, instead of it being 4 different would certainly make changing savant flavors much easier for a sorc.
It would also require basically creating every one of those spells more or less from scratch. Some of the spell visuals could be recycled, but most would require brand new setups.
Reuse the sleet storm animation for cold rain for instance, or otilukes freezing sphere for delayed blast ice ball, but most wouldn't be anywhere close to that easy.
I'm no coder, but I'd be willing to bet even that is more difficult and time consuming than it sounds.

[Xgya]

Simpler solution: add the Elemental Substitution feat to DDO.

Let substituted spells keep their graphics, but change their damage types and maybe add the flames on hit from Alchemist appropriate for the damage type. 'You thought that was Fire? Your Spellcraft and lying eyes identified it as Fireball? well, I transmuted the fire in a way that makes it stick to your skin and forces all your nerves to activate at once - painfully. Taste Electric Ball!'

Sorcerers are already among the fastest leveling classes in DDO, they don't need the power bump that would come from more versatility, especially since this would mainly affect the heroic leveling process, where sorcerers' leveling pace is the fastest.
However, tying that versatility to a character choice, namely, a feat, would probably be an acceptable trade.

[zsospeck666]

Simpler solution: add the Elemental Substitution feat to DDO.

Let substituted spells keep their graphics, but change their damage types and maybe add the flames on hit from Alchemist appropriate for the damage type. 'You thought that was Fire? Your Spellcraft and lying eyes identified it as Fireball? well, I transmuted the fire in a way that makes it stick to your skin and forces all your nerves to activate at once - painfully. Taste Electric Ball!'

Sorcerers are already among the fastest leveling classes in DDO, they don't need the power bump that would come from more versatility, especially since this would mainly affect the heroic leveling process, where sorcerers' leveling pace is the fastest.
However, tying that versatility to a character choice, namely, a feat, would probably be an acceptable trade.

So add 4 mutually exclusive feats something along the line of "When you cast a spell that deals elemental damage, the damage type will be changed to Lightning/Cold/Acid/Fire and use your (choice) spellpower and crit chance instead of its original type."?

Only problem I see with that solution would be for the immunes. The T5 sorc immune bypass is single target and on a fairly long cool down, and wizards don't have one at all that I can recall.
Could treat it like a metamagic that could be toggled on and off, but that still seems pretty OP for a single feat slot.

[Monkey_Archer]

/not signed



Sorcerers do not need buffs.
If you just want to play a fire sorc, but with different colours, this could be solved with a cosmetic item that changes the colour of spell effects. (as well as add more, such as purple meteors :rolleyes:)
If fire sorcs are over-performing, specifically due to meteor swarm, they should be nerfed. If acid sorcs are under-performing, due to having terrible spells generally, they should be buffed.
Rather than make all sorcs identical, I'd suggest the exact opposite: Add more spells, with unique effects, that further differentiate the play-style differences between elements.

[Aelonwy]

If you just want to play a fire sorc, but with different colours, this could be solved with a cosmetic item that changes the colour of spell effects. (as well as add more, such as purple meteors :rolleyes:)


GREEN FLAME!

Okay but seriously, I would purchase a cosmetic that changed my spell colors. On another note, I need more Acquisitions Incorporated.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

I like the spell color cosmetic idea

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

My arcane DPS idea presented above is solid and backed up by real data from alchemists which is my wiz/sorc idea implemented - you pick an arcane DPS flavor ice, acid, electric, fire, etc - for alchemists it is multivial - this would allow wiz/sorc to benefit from the same already implemented DPS strategy.

[janave]

/not signed



Sorcerers do not need buffs.
If you just want to play a fire sorc, but with different colours, this could be solved with a cosmetic item that changes the colour of spell effects. (as well as add more, such as purple meteors :rolleyes:)
If fire sorcs are over-performing, specifically due to meteor swarm, they should be nerfed. If acid sorcs are under-performing, due to having terrible spells generally, they should be buffed.
Rather than make all sorcs identical, I'd suggest the exact opposite: Add more spells, with unique effects, that further differentiate the play-style differences between elements.


1. Some Dragonborn and Tiefling Fire savants, deep progressed into DDO do not need buffs, for sure.
2. Great idea, spell cosmetics, i have a feeling the artwork + design coordination might be rather substantial for a relatively small interest intersect.
3. Yes, MS cooldown should have been the only change in the last nerf pass, every other savant is now relatively even further behind due to loss of casting levels.
4. Great idea, i really like to have them doing different things, when i want a simple streamlined spell pewpew experience that is what Warlock is for.

[reywas]

Nope. Would actually require more work than filling in the spell list with more cold, acid, and electric spells with good effects. Like the fact that a Ice savant has zero ability to freeze things is a travesty. It is now an effect in ddo, cold sorcs should absolutely be able to apply it. For acid, dots after initial nuke, prr/mrr/ac reduction, vulnerability. Electric should get daze and stuns maybe. I am all for more elemental spells, but they need to have diverse use and roles imo. It would require only adding in a few good spells to each to match Fire and it would diversify sorcerer types.

And while we are on the subject, more light/fire/force spells for Clerics and Favor Souls, options to pick up spells that fit domains (add to spell list for each domain, 1/level). Angel of Vengence gets some lovely light spells, but weirdly not Sunbeam or Sunburst. And while they get boosts to fire and force, they could be represented better. Arcanes would also like some force spells, personally I would love Magic Missle Storm as high level force nuke. Scaling for all of those should be increased to match arcanes, sans a penalty as for less things that resist it for balance. It should be closer than it is now though. Druids also need these theoretical spells for Seasons Herald Casters

[Cernunan]

This is a great starting place to revamp and modernize the primary original DPS caster class. The people who are against seem to be saying " but but but it's always been this way, change bad!!!"

After standardizing the DPS optimization, then to diversify roles the should be spells for each element that fill that element's support/control/debuf roles.

Add spells that reflect the essence of each element:

Dots: fire, cold
Control: cold(freeze), earth/acid (stonegrab), air (slow)
Debufs: reduction of physical protections (prr, ac): acid, movement reduction: air, melee power: cold, reduction of MRR/spell power: fire

This is a chance to improve the game by being clever, to fix glaring problems that have existed in the game for 16 years

[A-O]

I personally think this is a bad suggestion. And my reasoning is in line with Monkey_archer's above.
if all elements were equal you'd just use the one with the best itemization. There are better ways to fix other elements. Including, but not limited to adjusting cooldowns of meteor vs. e.g. acid well. And bringing up level 7-8 spells to better align with the power of level 9 spells (meteor in particular).

And further, any such changes, while good to always discuss, really need to take a backseat to an entire overhaul of Druid spells, Cleric/Fvs spells, and Artificer spells. Whose spells are just useless **** that's only used for buffing/healing.

[janave]

Nope. Would actually require more work than filling in the spell list with more cold, acid, and electric spells with good effects. Like the fact that a Ice savant has zero ability to freeze things is a travesty. It is now an effect in ddo, cold sorcs should absolutely be able to apply it. For acid, dots after initial nuke, prr/mrr/ac reduction, vulnerability. Electric should get daze and stuns maybe. I am all for more elemental spells, but they need to have diverse use and roles imo. It would require only adding in a few good spells to each to match Fire and it would diversify sorcerer types.


You understand it really well.

Over many years all the elemental savants "cool tricks" were handed out to every other classes or eventually as items. Really left Sorcerer in a boring/stripped down state, example: vulnerability procs is everywhere, Arties,Warlocks, Alchemist, end game weapons, Aasimar..etc. It gets back into shape a little bit in epics ( destiny actives and epic feats doing the heavy lifting but they are not unique in any way for a Sorcerer). New spells are a super extension to the class.

The most impactful dev response was immunity negation, but IMO the capstone version "auto apply on cast" actually just made the class a little more boring, tho have to give credit for it became effective again. I like the T5 option, moderate cooldown, on demand is balanced.

They also rely far too much on stuff from LGS, a bit less since ED revamps but still a lot. This is almost never desirable when a class relies so much on gear from a specific raid instance with no good alternatives (esp because U29 was not yesterday). Ravenloft belts are quasi mandatory, again BiS scenario with no alternatives.



Specific synergies are over performing: Medium Armored Dragonborn Fire Savants. Flamecleanshed fury set adds an impressive 80 PRR on top of the med armor benefits, with basically very little trade offs. This alone puts a character to over 120+ PRR, supposed to play in robes..., it is not uncommon for a character with progress to reach 190+ PRR. ( technically there is a trade off while the capstone is turned off... but realistically most fire savants can ignore that).

EK Armored Arcana should probably require using the transformation stance for medium armor, getting light armor and a large shield for super cheap is already an amazing deal for a robe caster by design.

Relativity is the key, when you have Fire (under fully optimized conditions from outside the class) over perfroming, then reducing all elements by a flat/fixed -2 to caster levels, means that the other 3 gets way bigger nerf than Fire spec, that triggered the nerf in the first place. Water can make a case that itemization is still sort of ahead, but Air and Earth was totally hammered from niche to "flavor".

[Pandjed]

There are always two things to consider, the game mechanics and the narrative. Steamrolling every spell would really water down the D&D narrative, which has a lot of iconic spells that would lose their meaning.

I think the problems with Wiz and Sorc are a bit more fundamental to make an "easy change". As janave said, sorc tricks were lent to many other classes, which hurt a lot for their identity... which wasn't that great to begin with.

Starting close DDO to 3.5e D&D had its giant downfalls, as 3.5e only provided one difference mechanically between wizard and sorcerers: How they spellcasting worked. DDO tried to "solve" it with their enhancement trees, but we basically have 4 times the same tree with little difference and playstyle and the only of those four trees that actually feels different is earth savant, because of the abundance of DOT-spells in acid... and little else, which made me cry out in frustration when playing one, as that one trick wasn't that good. Was pre-acid well though.
Other than that: Burn it with fire/cold/electricity and be done.

There are three things to consider when changing the sorc/wiz:

Update the current spells; alchemist shows how spells should be in the current game, the rest should follow through; maybe even giving both classes finally their own spell-list, though I'm sure that'd give an outcry <.<
Think about whether to make one Elemental Savant tree with multiselector and add other trees, or to distinguish the savant trees more that each of them provide a different playstyle that is legit while the elements have some basic coverage (for example, air savant may increase floatiness and mobility of the caster for more skirmishing, cold could freeze enemies, etc.); for wizard, it currently would make sense to break up the archwizard into themed trees like the pale master that concentrate on one or two schools (like Warwizard for DPS, Mastermind for Control effects, etc.)
Give caster tree(s) options that offer benefits playing an archetypical caster, like bonus power and SP preservance in cloth armor


This is not a problem for simple solutions. This is basically distinguishing two classes from the rest of the game.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

I love all the feedback and opinions.

I am still pointing at the 800-pound elephant in the room everyone is avoiding talking about

Presently, as far as sorcerer goes - Fire is the king - this is due to the spells meteor swarm and delayed blast fireball which neither ice, acid, nor electricity have access to any spell that work as good as those do.

My idea is not to stomp rules or to change sorcs or DDO - my idea is to allow the player who wishes to play an acid sorcerer to play one without suffering because presently arcane acid spells are all god awful. You would be hard-pressed on Legendary Casual to do Sharn welcome on an Acid sorc utilizing only your acid spells. Acid arrow and black dragon bolt are so bad they are not well representing any lore or lineage of Dungeons and Dragons. Any player who tries using acid, ice, or electric spells in legendary E/R likely says, 'wow, I thought that would be much better considering its place in the lore'

You can go down the line.

Lightning sorcs - fantastic in heroics. Head to Legendary E or R and your lightning spells become utter garbage. Why? Because Lightning bolt and chain lighting are awful. Just flat out wastes of mana to cast. They never hit, they do no dmg when they do. Compared to meteor swarm and delayed blast fireball cast by a fire sorc there is no contest - the fire SPELLS are x1000000000000000000000000000 better.

And so - the present DDO meta is - if you want to do epic/legendary E/R you make a fire sorc.
Ice is behind fire and while it used to be king of single target DPS, that has been nerfed. So we are back to all the ice spells underperforming like cold garbage when compared to the fire sorc's spells.

My idea was very simple to make any sorcerer viable and fun to play and not completely useless in Legendary E/R questing.

Again I am not treading on lore - I do not think we should get rid of polar ray for example - it is polar ray when on an ice sorc per my idea; and acid ray on an acid sorc, and etc.