Deceptions items, what counts as a "sneak attack"?

[Question2005]

Deception items state they grant a bonus to any attack that "counts a sneak attack".

But what counts as a sneak attack exactly?

For example, let us say you attack a mob who is attacking another party member. Normally, this would be a sneak attack and the deception bonus to hit/damage would kick in.

However, let us say the mob has fortification and it blocks the sneak attack damage. Does that still count as a sneak attack for the deception bonus, just that it does no sneak attack damage?

What if the mob has sneak attack immunity, do you get the deception bonus?

[TitusOvid]

Deception items state they grant a bonus to any attack that "counts a sneak attack".

But what counts as a sneak attack exactly?

For example, let us say you attack a mob who is attacking another party member. Normally, this would be a sneak attack and the deception bonus to hit/damage would kick in.

However, let us say the mob has fortification and it blocks the sneak attack damage. Does that still count as a sneak attack for the deception bonus, just that it does no sneak attack damage?

What if the mob has sneak attack immunity, do you get the deception bonus?

Does this help?
https://ddowiki.com/page/Sneak_attack


Cheers,
Titus

[brian14]

No, it does not actually help.

I am not the person who started the thread, but I am playing Rogue Assassin for the first time, and can't figure it out. Almost every time I tried to use Assassinate ability (usually on a mob busy fighting another player) I got "Invalid weapon or stance" message. Even if I was invisible, sneaking or bluffing. The only times I successfully assassinated were when I sneaked up invisibly to a mob NOT ENGAGED IN COMBAT, and hit it from behind.

If that's the only situation where Assassinate works, it is not very useful.

[Nibor]

No, it does not actually help.

I am not the person who started the thread, but I am playing Rogue Assassin for the first time, and can't figure it out. Almost every time I tried to use Assassinate ability (usually on a mob busy fighting another player) I got "Invalid weapon or stance" message. Even if I was invisible, sneaking or bluffing. The only times I successfully assassinated were when I sneaked up invisibly to a mob NOT ENGAGED IN COMBAT, and hit it from behind.

If that's the only situation where Assassinate works, it is not very useful.

Assassinate works in other cases.
Assassinate is a "Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack" - you must be sneaking - bluffing isn't enough, invis isn't enough, and you must be using a melee attack (you can't assassinate with a throwing dagger, or a crossbow). Other than that, it should work. Even if the mob sees you, you can still assassinate. I've seen plenty of times where somehow you get hit before the assassinate attack tries to go off, and then it fails to happen. Even micro amounts of lag can be a major problem with landing the attack, and when lag is particularly bad it will just mysteriously not work at all at times (seen multiple rogues have problems in Old Baba's Hut when there's heavy lag spikes happening).
Honestly, I assassinate a lot of CCd mobs, because they're standing still and thus easier to actually land the attack on them. Trying to assassinate a mob that's being kited by someone is a fair challenge indeed.

[superevbully]

Deception items state they grant a bonus to any attack that "counts a sneak attack".

But what counts as a sneak attack exactly?

For example, let us say you attack a mob who is attacking another party member. Normally, this would be a sneak attack and the deception bonus to hit/damage would kick in.

However, let us say the mob has fortification and it blocks the sneak attack damage. Does that still count as a sneak attack for the deception bonus, just that it does no sneak attack damage?

What if the mob has sneak attack immunity, do you get the deception bonus?

Not be all end all but invest and use the bluff skill:)

[Dragavon]

But what counts as a sneak attack exactly?

Every attack you make on a monster that is aggroed on someone else than you.

But you can not sneak attack monsters that have fortification, like undead or most bosses. To get sneak attack against them you need a good bit of fortification bypass or something that reduce their fortification. That is why the Deconstructor is such a popular augment.

If you have an item with improved deception you will get sneak attacks most of the time even if you have aggro.

When you get a sneak attack you get all the sneak attack bonus damage you have and you get an extra damage number on your screen. It also says sneak attack in your combat log. Deception is a bonus to sneak attack damage.

[DYWYPI]

I suspect brian14, you are doing something wrong with your Assassin when trying to Assassinate; you haven't needed Sneak Attack to Assassinate since U40.2.


[...] I got "Invalid weapon or stance" message. ...

Perhaps you are wielding a Throwing or Ranged weapon or not pressing 'Sneak' first. Or even for some weird reason getting "knocked out" of Sneak by taking damage while trying to click Assassinate, and end up being stood upright? Those scenarios could give you a warning message about the wrong stance and invalid weapon type, etc.


[...] The only times I successfully assassinated were when I sneaked up invisibly to a mob NOT ENGAGED IN COMBAT, and hit it from behind. ...

That should not matter, you can face the mob and have aggravation on you and still Assassinate it. Possibly your Assassinate DC is also very low so is failing mostly when facing the mob, but from behind the DC could be high enough. Or perhaps you are getting severe "connection latency" in-game, e.g. Lag spikes and completely missing, but wrongly assuming you'd hit your target. Lag or choppy game performance would be the a likely culprit if you can only ever Assassinate "inactive" trash from behind. Check your Combat log to see if you actually hit the mobs when clicking Assassinate.

The reason I [was] playing an Assassin prior to [U40.2]; is because I enjoyed having to think and be thoughtful of using Sneak attack, to Assassinate, etc.
Referring to U40.2: https://ddowiki.com/page/Update_40_Patch_2_Release_Notes#Enhancements.

Those changes [U40.2] to Assassinate were unwanted by Assassin enthusiasts myself included: [Post #58]. Fundamentally it was the removal of: Sneak attack requirements condition, to perform Assassinate which was one of our major objections over [U40.2]. Plus there was no need (or public request from the DDO forum community) for such additional power in the first place, etc. :-)

Essentially, you can now simply run up to your amoeboid Ooze opponent (that has no vitals and already can sense you). Aggravate it; get it swinging wildly at you; begin using /dance to annoy it more... Tell it a joke about /death count, ask it: "Do you come here often?" ...

Then simply [Click] Sneak for a brief second; it will likely miss you, and then hit Assassinate resulting in; a pretty much dead Ooze!

In other words Sneak attack is unnecessary to Assassinate, and pressing the Sneak button (for ~ 1 second) is now mostly superfluous. The need for Sneak (in that Assassinate scenario) would be akin to being; required to use "Bluff", on a mindless Ooze before being able to Assassinate it. :-/

(Combat): You hit [Stealth players] with Assassination.