Oh my god, leveling as inquis is so easy its ridiculous compared to as melee

[Question2005]

I've been doing melee lives THF lives pre-buff, monk handwrap lives, tempest lives...and I just tried out an inquis build and leveling it is so easy its ridiculous in comparison.

At level 15, inquis can get 20 ranged power and 30% permanent ranged alacrity in town (before gear). I also had 40% doubleshot (26.67% after the dual shooting penalty). Thats not even counting the massive damage boost from KTA or law dice.

In comparison, tempest gets 4 melee power and 0% off hand doublestrike till level 20. They dont get any attack speed bonuses from their tree except via the haste action boost either. They don't even get 100% off hand proc chance till level 18 (what a joke).

With object draw distance set to ultra high, I can start shooting from the very edge of the screen. Mobs just drop like flies, especially if you use the archer's focus stance. Hitting 10+ stacks of archer's focus on inquis is extremely fast and easy, and in heroics, the ranged power is massive. I was easily doing 120+ piercing damage (non-crit), per shot at level 15. And you fire twice because you are dual shooting. Thats the amount of slashing damage my tempest does in low epics with the melee power from epic destinies... It's like playing some mindless FPS like Serious Sam, just hold down the mouse and watch enemies drop.

Even THF builds can't compete in heroics, because by the time they get into melee range, i would have already killed several mobs while they have done 0 damage. If im standing still and racking up archer focus stacks (like when there are respawning waves in a room), theres just no way any melee build can compete with the free +75 ranged power from archer focus in heroics, when most melee builds get little to no melee power till they hit epics. Like how tempest gets a grand total of 4 melee power below cap from their tree.

I ran Breaking the Ranks on r1 in a party with a warlock and THF bear and easily killed more mobs with IPS than the both of them combined. I've done this quest many times on melee lives and it's always been a nightmare, when you have 10+ giants piling on you, you are going to take a lot of damage. As inquis, I just kited in circles and took no damage whatsoever. It was literally easy mode. You don't really understand how easy it is to play the game taking 0 damage even though there are 15+ mobs on screen chasing you, until you try it out for yourself. No words can do it justice.

Consistently, when leveling, I barely took any damage because almost no mobs could survive long enough to hurt me, the damage output at max range was ridiculous and I never found myself thinking "I should move closer to sneak attack", there was just no need whatsoever. I only kited mobs once in Breaking the Ranks, in all other quests I just stood still and never bothered because everything died so fast it didnt matter. And this is on a character with less than 70 PRR in town..

Even when shooting the 8k+ hp mobs in low epic quests, I feel like I am actually doing something rather than slapping them with wet noodles the way my tempest did. And my tempest was actually using much better weapons (drow scimitars with expanded threat range) while my inquis was using an epic ethereal crossbow.

And there's a huge list of QOL improvements...no need to chase archer mobs while they run to all corners of the room, no need to chase mobs that are chasing a party member, no need to worry about taking weapon damage when killing oozes/rust monsters, no need to get knocked back or knocked down by air elementals, no need to take any damage at all, the list goes on and on...

I find that im enjoying the game a LOT more now. I can't imagine doing another melee life after this, ranged is simply too good in comparison when leveling. I can even trap for free XP.

I bet AOE caster lives will be even more ridiculous. I look forward to deleting an entire encounter with a single button. Why waste time fighting mobs right? Just press a button and make all the mobs go away. Even my Bard 1/Barb 2/Sorc 12 bank alts can hit 300+ spellpower in town with zero past lives and some random ravenloft gear, let alone what any decent full caster build with some past lives can achieve.

(In before people miss the "when leveling" part of the post and start talking about how their THF builds outdamage ranged builds at cap)

[droid327]

Yeah I played RXB Arti before Inqui, and its really been a revelation - its what a ranged build should have been all along.



I find that im enjoying the game a LOT more now. I can't imagine doing another melee life after this, ranged is simply too good in comparison when leveling. I can even trap for free XP.

I bet AOE caster lives will be even more ridiculous. I look forward to deleting an entire encounter with a single button. Why waste time fighting mobs right? Just press a button and make all the mobs go away. Even my Bard 1/Barb 2/Sorc 12 bank alts can hit 300+ spellpower in town with zero past lives and some random ravenloft gear, let alone what any decent full caster build with some past lives can achieve.


I still do enjoy my melee alt, though. THF has some geometrical advantages over IPS for most encounters - things tend to bunch in packs for you to chop through more than stand in a line, and THF doesnt have to worry about hard-targeting behavior like IPS. Also you lack the defense of a good melee build, so when you cant kite, you'll go down pretty hard. And you lack any real tactical toolkit...your only move is to try to kill things fast enough.

Try out a Sorc EK when the update hits and you can use CHA to dmg. Kinda best of both worlds - still has enough punch to OHKO big packs with AOE, and then good sustained melee AOE DPS for anything left over.

[J-2]

I could not agree more.

When they nerfed paladins with their THF update, I tried out a monk, and enjoyed it.
I'm a casual player, and don't have much time to spend on gaming.
I hit cap in about the same time as a paladin, maybe a little bit quicker. 3 months or so.

I then tried out a warlock, and never leveled faster. I called it an easy button.
I hit cap in 3 weeks. I would often just gape at how easy they are.

I tried out a ranger on Saturday, and I'm almost into epics.
Like 16 hours later. Its even more ungodly easier.

Ranged are for softcore. They are easier. So much easier. Holy **** easier.
They don't have to deal with all the ******** mechanics that melee does.

[rabidfox]

If I'm remembering correctly, you're playing out inquisitive on an iconic for your 1st go, right? If so, you're at the peak of their power, full IPS + NHB available at creation. They're nice from 1 to 11, but it's nothing amazing until 12 for NHB and without IPS it's still not a full build. So you're still not truly getting a feel for heroic leveling differences between them and melee.

[yfernbottom]

For my money a really hard hitting 2HF character like a pally (any race) or a h-orc barb is on of the strongest characters in the game right now. It's also very easy to build, and works well in any level range. I personally find that an even easier on ramp into epic levels than a ranged character.

For example, on an Inq. getting swarmed is really annoying. On a 2HF you are happy to get swarmed.

Also, for ease of leveling, even Inq. can't really hold a candle to Warlock. On an Inq. you need point blank shot, rapid reload, rapid shot and some source of stat to damage or your DPS completely sucks. You also can't hit more than one target without losing 20% of your base damage.

On a warlock, you need to just pick warlock on the character creation screen. Then you are pretty much done. They are so easy I personally find them, boring to play.

[LurkingVeteran]

Yeah I played RXB Arti before Inqui, and its really been a revelation - its what a ranged build should have been all along.



I still do enjoy my melee alt, though. THF has some geometrical advantages over IPS for most encounters - things tend to bunch in packs for you to chop through more than stand in a line, and THF doesnt have to worry about hard-targeting behavior like IPS. Also you lack the defense of a good melee build, so when you cant kite, you'll go down pretty hard. And you lack any real tactical toolkit...your only move is to try to kill things fast enough.

Try out a Sorc EK when the update hits and you can use CHA to dmg. Kinda best of both worlds - still has enough punch to OHKO big packs with AOE, and then good sustained melee AOE DPS for anything left over.

In heroics maybe. How will you fit all the fire SP / crit % / crit damage / evo DC gear with all the RP / double shot / attack gear? This really seems to be the reason why you can't make meta hybrids in DDO. Granted, at least you don't have to stack defenses since it's ranged...

[Weemadarthur]

OMG not another thinly veiled nerf casters and ranged thread as they are OP compared to melee.

Ranged and casters are fine where they are. 2hf melee is fine where it is. SWF and 2WF imo may need a slight buff (but if your good your good enough to make these perform well for their purpose). Bows need quite a serious buff to bring them inline with other ranged as stated in enough other threads.

Please stop this crusade of claiming things are OP especially as it turns out over the last few months you have been posting this you hadnt even played a ranged toon! Seriously dude if you cant keep up with ranged on a melee come to G-Land and I will show you 1st hand how its done. The offer is open any time you feel like taking it up just send me a PM.

As we are pretty close to a balanced game atm these posts you keep putting up can only break that balance. The last thing ranged need now is another bout of nerfs (same applies to 2hf & casters).

[Chai]

outdated OP.

THF can now gather multiple groups of mobs up and wipe them all out faster.

Inquis is single target until level 11 minimum, and usually 12-15 depending on class split and feat slots available.

Dont mistake "lower skill floor" with "overall character power" like ForumDDO™ did with warlocks.

[HungarianRhapsody]

outdated OP.

THF can now gather multiple groups of mobs up and wipe them all out faster.

Inquis is single target until level 11 minimum, and usually 12-15 depending on class split and feat slots available.

Dont mistake "lower skill floor" with "overall character power" like ForumDDO™ did with warlocks.
And with Inquisitives and the excessive nerfs that it didn’t need.

Which is why there won’t be calls for nerfs of Alchemist for a long time. You have to be good at the game to make them overpowered.

[Bacab]

outdated OP.

THF can now gather multiple groups of mobs up and wipe them all out faster.

Inquis is single target until level 11 minimum, and usually 12-15 depending on class split and feat slots available.

Dont mistake "lower skill floor" with "overall character power" like ForumDDO™ did with warlocks.

This is what I was thinking.

It has a higher floor, but a lower ceiling.

Really at cap, I think a well built thrower is probably better than inquisitor?

Maybe someone can confirm/deny this?

[Zeleron]

Really at cap, I think a well built thrower is probably better than inquisitor?

Maybe someone can confirm/deny this?

Thrower is king atm. The bug fix will balance it slightly better, then many will flock to melee THF.

[Question2005]

Yeah I played RXB Arti before Inqui, and its really been a revelation - its what a ranged build should have been all along.



I still do enjoy my melee alt, though. THF has some geometrical advantages over IPS for most encounters - things tend to bunch in packs for you to chop through more than stand in a line, and THF doesnt have to worry about hard-targeting behavior like IPS. Also you lack the defense of a good melee build, so when you cant kite, you'll go down pretty hard. And you lack any real tactical toolkit...your only move is to try to kill things fast enough.

Try out a Sorc EK when the update hits and you can use CHA to dmg. Kinda best of both worlds - still has enough punch to OHKO big packs with AOE, and then good sustained melee AOE DPS for anything left over.

Ive thought about doing EK before but it always goes back to the same problem : Why bother running into melee range when you can delete an entire encounter with one button below cap? EK's only advantage is that with perfect gear and tons of past lives, you can kill stuff in mid/high reaper whereas a pure caster would be running out of SP trying to nuke them down.

[Question2005]

If I'm remembering correctly, you're playing out inquisitive on an iconic for your 1st go, right? If so, you're at the peak of their power, full IPS + NHB available at creation. They're nice from 1 to 11, but it's nothing amazing until 12 for NHB and without IPS it's still not a full build. So you're still not truly getting a feel for heroic leveling differences between them and melee.

The funny thing is, I almost never used IPS or NHB in heroics. Because I am not using a small sized race, I found that my IPS shots were not hitting most mobs unless they were roughly my size or larger. Lots of mobs like oozes, kobolds, crawling shadows, etc, i couldnt AOE them with IPS at all. So I just stood still and racked up tons of RP from archer's focus and was doing the kind of damage that my tempest would normally do in low epics. NHB is cool but the wind up time means that you could just auto attack the boss to death in the time that it took to do the windup animation anyway.

That said, at level 15 you do get a decent amount of law dice, the 30% ranged alacrity, etc so that might skew my perception a bit, but then again, TWF doesn't even get 80% off hand proc chance till you can take greater TWF anyway.

[Question2005]

For my money a really hard hitting 2HF character like a pally (any race) or a h-orc barb is on of the strongest characters in the game right now. It's also very easy to build, and works well in any level range. I personally find that an even easier on ramp into epic levels than a ranged character.

For example, on an Inq. getting swarmed is really annoying. On a 2HF you are happy to get swarmed.

Also, for ease of leveling, even Inq. can't really hold a candle to Warlock. On an Inq. you need point blank shot, rapid reload, rapid shot and some source of stat to damage or your DPS completely sucks. You also can't hit more than one target without losing 20% of your base damage.

On a warlock, you need to just pick warlock on the character creation screen. Then you are pretty much done. They are so easy I personally find them, boring to play.

I mean sure, THF hits really hard now, but at the end of the day they still need to waste time running into melee range and having to chase down mobs, whereas a ranged or caster can kill everything from the edge of the screen. Its just a massive amount of QOL.

I haven't done inq from level 1 yet, and you are right that not having stat to damage and other stuff at low levels is annoying...I've done wis based monk and trying to kill kobolds without wis to attack/damage was painful. But I seriously doubt its as bad as monks at low level.

[Question2005]

THF can now gather multiple groups of mobs up and wipe them all out faster.


Cant do that if most of the mobs are dead by the time you reach melee range. Or if they are using ranged/caster AI and run away from you.

Melee's worst enemy : a room full of caster/archer mobs that spread out to all corners of the room and force you to chase each one down individually. Like in Devil's Details, there are several rooms full of tiefling archers that do that.

Also what you are describing is only possible for THF. Try doing that as SWF or TWF and see what happens.

Inquis being a universal tree means that every class has access to it. If you are playing ranger and want to do melee, you are locked into TWF because tempest is a TWF tree, there's no uber THF universal tree. While every class can do inquis for an easy ranged life.

[rabidfox]

If you're not using IPS & NHB, then you're not getting a valid comparison of Inq vs other builds; which makes me wonder what abilities/setups you might not be using on your melee builds because they don't fit what's convenient for your play style.


The funny thing is, I almost never used IPS or NHB in heroics. Because I am not using a small sized race, I found that my IPS shots were not hitting most mobs unless they were roughly my size or larger. Lots of mobs like oozes, kobolds, crawling shadows, etc, i couldnt AOE them with IPS at all. So I just stood still and racked up tons of RP from archer's focus and was doing the kind of damage that my tempest would normally do in low epics.
The small size being needed for IPS is mostly a myth. I say mostly because it does help a bit, but a skilled player still hits almost everything that they line up (& target) correctly. Turn on IPS and practice using it with a mix of rear targeting/manual mouse aiming to control the angle of the shots. As long as you're hitting 2x targets then it's serves its purpose. It might take a few lives to get it down, but one you do, it'll be as natural as jump casting.



NHB is cool but the wind up time means that you could just auto attack the boss to death in the time that it took to do the windup animation anyway.
Trip it on the way to a fight. Anytime you're running into a room with a large crowd or boss, hit it along the way. Inquisitive & Artificers work best when they know the instances and predictively use their abilities.

[Question2005]

This is what I was thinking.

It has a higher floor, but a lower ceiling.

Really at cap, I think a well built thrower is probably better than inquisitor?

Maybe someone can confirm/deny this?

Thrower is definately better at cap, but thats the issue, its only better at cap and only better because SSG hasnt fixed the bug yet. Will it still be significantly better after the bug fix? I doubt it. I predict that a lot of the thrower builds you see at cap are going to TR back into inquis or THF a few days after the bug is fixed.

So for people who's only concern is to farm rxp at cap and do end game raids on reaper, then yes, thrower is their choice currently because that's all they care about, how effective they are in r10, etc. Most of these guys use boxes or xp and slayer pots to reach cap ASAP so the fact that throwers are awful to level doesnt really bother them, and they have tons of reaper AP and most past lives to help them level anyway. They also dont mind using +1 hearts to start at level 15 to get to cap ASAP with their optimal split. These guys are in the very top 1% of the playerbase.

For everyone else, inquis is nearly as good, way easier to level, and has tons of perks, permanent true seeing, auto search, etc, that's why inquis is way more popular with people who are leveling for past lives, the 99% of the playerbase who actually care about most of the game's content because they are not zerging from 20-30 in a few hours with pots + slayers.

[Question2005]

If you're not using IPS & NHB, then you're not getting a valid comparison of Inq vs other builds; which makes me wonder what abilities/setups you might not be using on your melee builds because they don't fit what's convenient for your play style.


The small size being needed for IPS is mostly a myth. I say mostly because it does help a bit, but a skilled player still hits almost everything that they line up (& target) correctly. Turn on IPS and practice using it with a mix of rear targeting/manual mouse aiming to control the angle of the shots. As long as you're hitting 2x targets then it's serves its purpose. It might take a few lives to get it down, but one you do, it'll be as natural as jump casting.



Trip it on the way to a fight. Anytime you're running into a room with a large crowd or boss, hit it along the way. Inquisitive & Artificers work best when they know the instances and predictively use their abilities.

I think a better way of looking at it would be that even though i am not using IPS/NHB often in heroics, i am killing mobs way faster than every melee life I have done and taking far less damage. To be fair, I did THF lives before it got buffed.

I dont know if its just me but its kinda hard for me to tell if i am hitting multiple mobs at all. I am not 100% sure, but I think only your main target shows damage numbers, so you dont see damage numbers for the secondary targets that IPS hits. Is there a way to get it to display damage numbers for all the mobs you hit?

I've also noticed that aiming at the mobs in the back doesnt seem to work, unless you manually target it by right clicking it (which is annoying to do constantly). If you are using the reticle, the game always targets the first mob in the way. I've also noticed that if a party member stands infront of a mob, trying to shoot through them doesnt work unless you manually target the mob. I was under the assumption that DDO actually checks the path of weapons to see whether it hits a target or not, rather than relying purely on the targetting system, so if you aim at a party member and at them, the bolt should go through them and hit the mob, but that doesnt seem to be the case...

I tried testing IPS on kobolds in creeping death for a while and while I could get multiple hits sometimes, it was not consistent the way it was on the mobs in Breaking the Ranks.

And yea you can trip NHB before starting a boss fight, but for most of heroics it didnt matter because the boss just dropped dead in 3s from auto attacking anyway. With all the melee lives i did, i would be popping action boosts, reaper boosts, all my damage abilities, etc. With inquis, i never needed to till I started doing wheloon and stormhorns.

[ggmarquez]

I've also noticed that aiming at the mobs in the back doesnt seem to work

you don't need a hard target. or even a soft target lock. every bolt fired will pass through every mob along the bolts trajectory. for an infinite distance. one of the reasons its been hard to have ranged balanced against melee... ranged coup-de-gras can double tap every single mob in a straight line with no target lock required. personally can't wait for feydark illusion tree, suddenly my inquisitive bards will have cha to hit and dmg as well as an insanely high preform at level 20, making ranged coup-de-gras builds look even more appealing than they were. also, the damage display *should* always appear above the mobs head. if you are not seeing numbers floating everywhere, above the entire line, it means you are way too tall ;)

[Soulfurnace]

. I was easily doing 120+ piercing damage (non-crit), per shot at level 15. And you fire twice because you are dual shooting. Thats the amount of slashing damage my tempest does in low epics with the melee power from epic destinies...

Y'know, part of the problem might be your damage is bad on your tempest. That's pretty low..

[rabidfox]

Y'know, part of the problem might be your damage is bad on your tempest. That's pretty low..

I think comes down to the low skill floor on inquisitive and that it's more or less cookie cutter for most setups. So for newer people without gear, builds, tactics, etc, inquisitive is gonna seem god mode vs playing a melee that isn't performing where it could with the right setup (kinda like how warlocks are fairly easy mode to roll as new player).

[yfernbottom]

I think comes down to the low skill floor on inquisitive and that it's more or less cookie cutter for most setups. So for newer people without gear, builds, tactics, etc, inquisitive is gonna seem god mode vs playing a melee that isn't performing where it could with the right setup (kinda like how warlocks are fairly easy mode to roll as new player).

Inqs., warlock, and now 2HF are probably the builds that are easiest to do well with. Among those, Inqis, is actually the hardest because of all the feats you need. I mean yes, you need a lot on 2hF as well, but taking 2hf 1,2,3 is going to be pretty obvious even to a new player.

I'd put fire sorc. on the list as well, but it's **** near torture to play until level 12. You also practically need to be a DB or a teifling.

[Chai]

Cant do that if most of the mobs are dead by the time you reach melee range. Or if they are using ranged/caster AI and run away from you.

Melee's worst enemy : a room full of caster/archer mobs that spread out to all corners of the room and force you to chase each one down individually. Like in Devil's Details, there are several rooms full of tiefling archers that do that.

Also what you are describing is only possible for THF. Try doing that as SWF or TWF and see what happens.

Inquis being a universal tree means that every class has access to it. If you are playing ranger and want to do melee, you are locked into TWF because tempest is a TWF tree, there's no uber THF universal tree. While every class can do inquis for an easy ranged life.

Good example of confusing/conflating low skill floor with overall high character power. Each time a "most effective" topic of discussion comes up, people want something nerfed based on "ease of play"

Warlock, Shiradi, Inquisitive each saw the nerf bat not due to being most effective, but due to being low skill floor. Inq was closest to "most effective" but the typical over-reaction-as-usual community atmosphere perpetuated an over-reactionary nerf, where one entity within an archetype needed a clean shave to take down the 5 O'Clock shadow, and instead of a safety razor, they pulled out a great-sword and lopped off the entire archetype's head, then declared the 5 O'Clock shadow issue the one entity had, as resolved. Oh my, look at that clean shave. :p

I didnt feel sorry for anyone playing INQ at the time. I felt sorry for anyone who was on like level 7 of an AA life - already C level DPS before the nerf. Viable, but was never going to be near top. They "fixed" that the same way your rescue dog gets "fixed" before the family picks it up to drive it home.


Also what you are describing is only possible for THF. Try doing that as SWF or TWF and see what happens.

Nope.

TWF and SWF had their day when this was done regularly in ALL content and can still do it in MOST content. THF getting buffed didnt make SWF and TWF less powerful. It wasnt THAT long ago when tempests were the kings of this. SWF being on top was a bit longer ago, but it had its day in the sun too.


Melee's worst enemy : a room full of caster/archer mobs that spread out to all corners of the room and force you to chase each one down individually. Like in Devil's Details, there are several rooms full of tiefling archers that do that.


Cant do that if most of the mobs are dead by the time you reach melee range. Or if they are using ranged/caster AI and run away from you.

Its actually more difficult to get them all into a conga-line to IPS them down than it is to bunch them up and let strikethrough do its work. The basic default quest design (which is leaned on heavily) is bunches of mobs waiting for you in a room or hallway.

Even if your statement were true, if those mobs are in all corners of the room, how are you IPS-ing them down faster than the melee can get to them?

-gonna have to make up our minds here me thinks, about which ForumDDO™ inquisi-tatertot myth we want to double down on.

Mobs are either:
A) all conga-lined up ready for ranged to take them all out before the melee arrives...
-or-
B) in all corners of the room.

Here, you went with "yes" - heh

[boredGamer]

I find that im enjoying the game a LOT more now.

You could've really just started and ended this rant right here.

Play what you like to play, you will generally have more fun and success doing it.

The rest is mostly rehashed forum arguments over the years, of ranged versus melee risk.

[Weemadarthur]

Good example of confusing/conflating low skill floor with overall high character power. Each time a "most effective" topic of discussion comes up, people want something nerfed based on "ease of play"

Warlock, Shiradi, Inquisitive each saw the nerf bat not due to being most effective, but due to being low skill floor. Inq was closest to "most effective" but the typical over-reaction-as-usual community atmosphere perpetuated an over-reactionary nerf, where one entity within an archetype needed a clean shave to take down the 5 O'Clock shadow, and instead of a safety razor, they pulled out a great-sword and lopped off the entire archetype's head, then declared the 5 O'Clock shadow issue the one entity had, as resolved. Oh my, look at that clean shave. :p

I didnt feel sorry for anyone playing INQ at the time. I felt sorry for anyone who was on like level 7 of an AA life - already C level DPS before the nerf. Viable, but was never going to be near top. They "fixed" that the same way your rescue dog gets "fixed" before the family picks it up to drive it home.

This pretty much sums it all up nicely and is my cause for concern with threads like these. Enough people start agreeing that ease of play = power and the nerf bat will strike yet again.

[acemonkey]

This pretty much sums it all up nicely and is my cause for concern with threads like these. Enough people start agreeing that ease of play = power and the nerf bat will strike yet again.

Don't worry the devs have efectively 0 interest in what forumites think, other than occasionally posting a platitude or inane comment to remind people how much they're supposed to seem to care. The nerfs that happen aren't due to forum posting at all, it's purely financially driven.

Inq was the hot topic for something like 6 months with people having weekly freakout threads about how a nerf was desperately needed, absolutely nothing happened until they had another product ready for sale to replace inq.

[ggmarquez]

Don't worry the devs have efectively 0 interest in what forumites think

confront any foe slipped under the radar for how long? it wasn't until enough forum posters painted a straight line to it that it finally had a cool-down added to it. and it's very likely that those players had already abused it to achieve their goals, only posting here to insure that nobody else would be able to enjoy the same.

and caf is hardly the first or most obvious example.

[FTPDDO]

Individual opinion on build strength is so skewed by differing power levels, grouping preferences and playstyle.

This is why perfect class balance is impossible.

[Bjond]

Even THF builds can't compete in heroics [...]I ran Breaking the Ranks on r1 in a party with a warlock and THF bear and easily killed more mobs with IPS than the both of them combined

Eh. I have THF & Ranged (no, not INQ since the nerf) characters. I play them both depending on whim for that session. Each is better than the other at various things. However, in your giant case, THF flat out wins. A good THF can literally one-shot an entire wave of giants. I've done it with mine, though it wasn't exactly planned. It was one of those double blink "oh, that's nice" moments.

OTH, heroics aren't a test of anything at all other than basic preparation. If you're not brand-new and have gear lined up, you can solo through R1 Heroics non-stop on a first-life character with any of the archetypes. Even a shouter bard -- the absolute worst build I can think of for epics -- will blast through heroics on R1 solo without breaking stride.

There are things I'd tweak for balance. In general: change DC & DR from flat to fractional. Skills should always work. Piling on that skill's driving stat should just make it nicer, not suddenly flip it from nothing to functional when you're at or near the maximum potential for that stat; eg. mass-hold should always do a non-helpless hold for a base duration with DC increasing duration and helpless bonus. Similar for DR. You should be a little jealous of a build that breaks that DR, not forced to swap gear and emulate it just to make any progress whatsoever.

[Weemadarthur]

confront any foe slipped under the radar for how long? it wasn't until enough forum posters painted a straight line to it that it finally had a cool-down added to it. and it's very likely that those players had already abused it to achieve their goals, only posting here to insure that nobody else would be able to enjoy the same.

and caf is hardly the first or most obvious example.

The catch is there that it was obviously not working as intended and needed the nerf to bring it back to being balanced. We can only hope though that threads like these that are just pure hyperbole from someone who is obviously very bad at melee and pushing an agenda where he wants to see ranged and casters nerfed (Just look at how often Question2005 has posted about how ranged and casters are OP over the last few months and then realise he hasnt even played ranged till recently) will be ignored by the devs but with enough people singing the same tune too often before classes that were not OP have been nerfed to the point they are at best viable.

Like I have said a lot recently for the 1st time since 2006 we have a relative balance between the 3 archtypes. Posts like this just pave the way for that balance to be destroyed yet again.