Artificer crossbow builds : Inquisitive vs Great crossbows

[Question2005]

Ive been trying to make artificer crossbow builds (for artificer past lives) and it basically boils down to inquisitive vs great crossbows (t5 mechanic, endless fusilade).

The problem is that no matter how i run the numbers, inquisitive always wins because they fire twice, meaning law dice and sneak attack gets applied twice. Great crossbows get some extra sneak attack dice, yes, but its not enough to make up for the 2x sneak attack or law dice.

The fact that inqusiitive doesnt need to spam fusilade to get good DPS also mean its much more flexible and smooth to play. If the fusilade build is running in LD to spam fusilade, then its missing out on the shadow dancer's ability to remove sneak attack immunity. If both builds are running SD, then inquisitive gets more of a benefit because they fire twice and apply the sneak attack dice twice.

The inquisitive build also has spare AP to run KTA, while the fusilade build does not.

I was really looking forward to trying out stuff like divine artillery and volley, but im finding it hard to justify when inquisitive just seems so much better. You can even use ratcatcher from 8-20, which has a crit profile nearly as good as a great crossbow.

Thoughts? Can anyone come up with a great crossbow build for artificers that come close to inqusitiive DPS?

[SocratesBastardSon]

Not that I'm aware of. GXbow builds these days are viewed as a "poor man's inquisitive", i.e., for those who have not yet purchased Inquisitive.

Three other things make Inquisitive more valuable, IMO.

First, being able to use rune arms with Inquisitive means you get something of the best of both worlds: the benefits of high-output repeater/rune arm builds with the hitting power of GXbow. Combining Mechanic with Arti means you should probably just go with The Endless Fusillade build, but that doesn't change my assessment at all, and I've played both extensively.

Second, both are trapper builds, but Inquisitive's Mind Like Iron adds a low penalty automatic search capacity that's a huge quality of life improvement for trappers.

Finally, Inquisitive adds a bunch of crowd control options that can be quite helpful, especially if you're doing solo work. Mechanic gives you some special attacks against constructs, a couple flask attacks and Time Bomb. Despite those Mechanic abilities, it always felt like I could do much more with Inquisitive than a GXbow build.

I should also add that Mechanic is really back-loaded for the good stuff, but Inquisitive gives you useful stuff right away, and its powers seem to come on line in a smooth progression, unlike Mechanic which is painful until you get tier 5 at level 12.

[rabidfox]

For arti lives, go inquisitive. I think taking both NHB + Endless Fusilade still results in extra passive bonuses for having both (unless that was changed with inq nerf); either way inq + battle engineer + harpers is silly strong.

[Bunker]

Thoughts? Can anyone come up with a great crossbow build for artificers that come close to inqusitiive DPS?

Are you going from 1-20? If it is just for artificer lives, you could build out for a Gxbow build. And at lvl 20, just swap out to inquisitive enhancements are compare. Also, if you are doing multiple artificer lives, just run the first as inquisitive all the way up, and the second as a Gxbow build all the way. Either way, if it is simply for heroic completion of level 20 and then going back to level 1, IMO there is not much difference if simply going for heroic past life.

15 Arti / 5 Rogue (tier 5 mechanic, tier 4 battle engineer)

12 Arti / 6 Rogue / 2 Barbarian (little faster movement)

[unbongwah]

Can anyone come up with a great crossbow build for artificers that come close to inqusitiive DPS?
No, because what you really want for a great xbow / Inquisitive hybrid is Expert Builder which requires rogue 18. Hence those xbow builds with rogue 18 / Artificer 2: 41 Inquisitive / 31 Mechanic / 8 Harper or whatever. Swap to great xbows for No Holds Barred for those sweet x4 crits, then switch back to dual xbows. And frankly if SSG ever nerfs NHB so it only works with dual xbows, I expect non-F2P players to lose interest in great xbows entirely until SSG buffs them again.

If you're going majority-Artificer and you have Inquisitive, there's no real incentive to use great xbows instead particularly if this is just a heroic PL.

[Question2005]

I will be starting at level 15 with PDK as i need both PDK and artificer lives.

So now im thinking on a good split to do this.

I thought of Artificer 12/Rogue 6/Fighter 2. This gives you 1 level 5 spell slot which can be used for tensers to get 30 BAB at cap, and the penalties dont really affect you since you are not a full spellcaster anyway. Has anyone tried out tensers before?

The downside is that the battle engineer tree is obsolete and none of the cores look good at all, which is kind of a waste. 41 ap in inquisitive, minimum of 11 ap in mechanic for int to damage and 8 in harper for KTA, leaves 21 ap (+1 universal tome). Not sure where to use these...I can get Fletching in Mechanic t4 and leftovers in Kensei I guess. Thoughts?

[rabidfox]

The downside is that the battle engineer tree is obsolete and none of the cores look good at all, which is kind of a waste. 41 ap in inquisitive, minimum of 11 ap in mechanic for int to damage and 8 in harper for KTA, leaves 21 ap (+1 universal tome). Not sure where to use these...I can get Fletching in Mechanic t4 and leftovers in Kensei I guess. Thoughts?
For 7 AP get +3 action boosts out of Kensei and +3 more from battle engineer for 11; enjoy the near endless supply of NHB.

[Question2005]

For 7 AP get +3 action boosts out of Kensei and +3 more from battle engineer for 11; enjoy the near endless supply of NHB.

That means not taking fletching though. Is it worth going high to get fletching? What about getting level 3 wracking shot? It lowers the cooldown to 4 seconds so you can stack it on constructs.

So I could do this :

Inquistiive : 41 ap

Mechanic : 14 ap for int to damage + wracking shot 3

Harper : 8 ap for KTA

PDK : 3 ap for heal amp

Kensei : 11 ap for Kensei Focus 2 and +3 action boosts

Total : 77/83 (2 racial AP + 1 universal AP)

Or I could spend more points in mechanic for Fletching instead of getting more action boosts. Thoughts?

Edit : Someone else suggested I do artificer 10/ranger 9/fighter 1 to get sniper shot + evasion. Any thoughts on that?

[Bunker]

That means not taking fletching though. Is it worth going high to get fletching? What about getting level 3 wracking shot? It lowers the cooldown to 4 seconds so you can stack it on constructs.

So I could do this :

Inquistiive : 41 ap

Mechanic : 14 ap for int to damage + wracking shot 3

Harper : 8 ap for KTA

PDK : 3 ap for heal amp

Kensei : 11 ap for Kensei Focus 2 and +3 action boosts

Total : 77/83 (2 racial AP + 1 universal AP)

Or I could spend more points in mechanic for Fletching instead of getting more action boosts. Thoughts?

Edit : Someone else suggested I do artificer 10/ranger 9/fighter 1 to get sniper shot + evasion. Any thoughts on that?

Wracking shot: The best part of wrack is the fort reduction. Any more than 1 tier imo is not worth taking.

[Question2005]

Wracking Shot: Ranged Attack: +1[W]. On Damage: Deals 3d6/6d6/9d6 extra damage to constructs and living constructs, and applies Wracked: This construct or living construct's fortification is reduced by -10% and loses its inherent immunity to sneak attack. This effect stacks up to five times. Damage scales with 200% ranged power. Duration: 20 seconds.

WOuldnt you want to stack the fort reduction up to 5 times?

[boredman]

I haven't tested yet but a ranger splash for Deepwood stalker t5 enhancements with high doubleshot and Improved archer focus for high ranged power can probably hit very good single target damage but also can swap between improved archer focus and improved precise shot for aoe dmg once built af stacks and also could use bow and manyshot as a swap, also sniper shot, etc.

So basically 6 ranger (8Arti/6Ranger/6Fighter for example) or 12 Ranger+ splash for Deepwood stalker t5 enhancements and sniper shot, manyshot, etc
Battle engineer t4 for endless fusilade
Harper for int to hit and dmg and kta.
3 core kensei for critical mult.

Playstyle would be building imp archer focus stacks then swaping to imp precise shot when aoe dmg and swaping back to imp archer focus so not an easy build to play requiring good timing for switching stances, but the Great crossbow dmg when full archer focus stacks with good ranged power and doubleshot + endless fusilade/manyshot should be very good.

[Bunker]

WOuldnt you want to stack the fort reduction up to 5 times?

Yes. but unless i'm mistaken. The stacking of wrack is based off of hits.

IE: If i attack with wrack shot as a Dual Xbow, if both attacks were successful, there will be 2 stacks on the target. Once wrack's cooldown is shorter than the fort reduction timers, so once the cooldown is clear, I attack the target again adding additional stacks.

I've never had more than 1 tier of wrack on any character that used ranged, and have had multiple stacks. I believe tier 2 and 3 simply just add more wrack dmg dice.

[Question2005]

I haven't tested yet but a ranger splash for Deepwood stalker t5 enhancements with high doubleshot and Improved archer focus for high ranged power can probably hit very good single target damage but also can swap between improved archer focus and improved precise shot for aoe dmg once built af stacks and also could use bow and manyshot as a swap, also sniper shot, etc.

So basically 6 ranger (8Arti/6Ranger/6Fighter for example) or 12 Ranger+ splash for Deepwood stalker t5 enhancements and sniper shot, manyshot, etc
Battle engineer t4 for endless fusilade
Harper for int to hit and dmg and kta.
3 core kensei for critical mult.

Playstyle would be building imp archer focus stacks then swaping to imp precise shot when aoe dmg and swaping back to imp archer focus so not an easy build to play requiring good timing for switching stances, but the Great crossbow dmg when full archer focus stacks with good ranged power and doubleshot + endless fusilade/manyshot should be very good.

DWS t5 is not viable for crossbows because the alacrity bonus in DWS does not apply to crossbows. Archer's focus still takes too long to get up to speed. And theres no reason to use bows over crossbows when inqusitive blows bows out of the water.

Many shot doesnt work for crossbows either.

[Question2005]

Yes. but unless i'm mistaken. The stacking of wrack is based off of hits.

IE: If i attack with wrack shot as a Dual Xbow, if both attacks were successful, there will be 2 stacks on the target. Once wrack's cooldown is shorter than the fort reduction timers, so once the cooldown is clear, I attack the target again adding additional stacks.

I've never had more than 1 tier of wrack on any character that used ranged, and have had multiple stacks. I believe tier 2 and 3 simply just add more wrack dmg dice.

According to the wiki, the cooldown is :

t1 : 12 seconds
t2 : 8 seconds
t3 : 4 seconds

If that is correct, you would need t3 wrack shot to max out on 5 stacks of wrack. But if the party has multiple people using wrack shot (easy to achieve as inqusiitive is one of the most common builds, and almost all builds take 6 levels of rogue), it would be easy to hit 5 stacks with only t1 wrack.

Now my main issue is that im trying to decide how important sniper shot is as people have told me it is pretty much necessary.

So its a choice between artificer 12/rogue 6/fighter 2 (for tensers + extend spell) or artificer 10/ranger 9/fighter 1 (for evasion + sniper shot). Thoughts?

[Bunker]

According to the wiki, the cooldown is :

t1 : 12 seconds
t2 : 8 seconds
t3 : 4 seconds

If that is correct, you would need t3 wrack shot to max out on 5 stacks of wrack. But if the party has multiple people using wrack shot (easy to achieve as inqusiitive is one of the most common builds, and almost all builds take 6 levels of rogue), it would be easy to hit 5 stacks with only t1 wrack.

Now my main issue is that im trying to decide how important sniper shot is as people have told me it is pretty much necessary.

So its a choice between artificer 12/rogue 6/fighter 2 (for tensers + extend spell) or artificer 10/ranger 9/fighter 1 (for evasion + sniper shot). Thoughts?
I'm currently running a 12 Alch / 6 Ranger / 2 Arti

Sniper shot is definitely worth it if you are ranger. The cooldown on sniper shot is 6 sec (low) and it gives an automatic vulnerability to SA. so yea, that is probably why many ppl say it is a must.

For a tier III core, it is a very nice enhancement.

[Phoenicis]

That means not taking fletching though. Is it worth going high to get fletching? What about getting level 3 wracking shot? It lowers the cooldown to 4 seconds so you can stack it on constructs.

So I could do this :

Inquistiive : 41 ap

Mechanic : 14 ap for int to damage + wracking shot 3

Harper : 8 ap for KTA

PDK : 3 ap for heal amp

Kensei : 11 ap for Kensei Focus 2 and +3 action boosts

Total : 77/83 (2 racial AP + 1 universal AP)

Or I could spend more points in mechanic for Fletching instead of getting more action boosts. Thoughts?

Edit : Someone else suggested I do artificer 10/ranger 9/fighter 1 to get sniper shot + evasion. Any thoughts on that?

You are majority artificer with conjure bolts. Why are you concerned about fletching?

[Bunker]

You are majority artificer with conjure bolts. Why are you concerned about fletching?

At first I was thinking the same thing. However, fletching does add RP.

[boredman]

DWS t5 is not viable for crossbows because the alacrity bonus in DWS does not apply to crossbows. Archer's focus still takes too long to get up to speed. And theres no reason to use bows over crossbows when inqusitive blows bows out of the water.

Many shot doesnt work for crossbows either.

I haven't tested the build but i think is very viable. About the alacrity bonus, I'm not sure but Crossbows may get capped on attack speed an it doesn't seem to affect much the performance speed at high levels ( I believe that supposed 30% alacrity speed is much less than that in reality at cap, when hasted and high bab, but not sure, also haste boost could be used but don't know if it stack) On the other hand you get an important boost in doubleshot 40% more doubleshot with strikes like lightning + killer and Improved archer focus if working as described should give an important boost to ranged power and it can be built quickly (on boss fights) for example using endless fusilade or manyshot to stack fast.

About manyshot you use a longbow, just swap for using it and is a nice boost at high levels when you can build good ranged power and doubleshot while endless fusilade is on cooldown. One drawback is the losing if 1 critical mult compared to mechanic or thread range compared to Inquisitive, but the doubleshot bonus + manyshot + improved archer focus can make up for it, especially in long fights like raids or while soloing.

With full stacks of Imp archer focus and other buffs like vulnerability or consecration it could easily deal 2-3x the damage of single target improved precise shot or even more, making worth to use unless you can hit 3 enemies or more with ips.(That not even counting adrenaline or Hunter's shot abilities that boost the base damage even further)