Vampire Ninja Tempest

[SouCarioca]

Although calling this build a Monk is a stretch, it does have more Monk levels than anything so that is why I am posting it here. This is a pretty wild combination, entirely theoretical, and am just curious about some basic feedback. I have only filled out the first 20 levels, and spells are not plotted out completely either. It is Monk 9/ Ranger 6 / Wizard 5.

The basic idea is a TWF that enjoys monk's Wind Stance, Evasion and Enhanced Evasion (the key reason for 9 levels). It also grabs Ninja's shortsword enhancement to allow shortswords, and adds a feat to allow a longsword in mainhand. Obviously the ranger's TWF and Tempest enhancements are exploited heavily for TWF (by lvl20 it should have 90% chance for offhand strikes), Storm Tempest and plenty of Dodge from both lines. Both monk and ranger are the core of the leveling at start.

FInally at level 16-20 it goes Wizard to become a vampire and Eldritch Knight to cap its survivability (and I just wanted a vampire!), as well as major DPS addons with the Eldtrich Knight enhancements which will become a major source of damage at the end. It is perfectly possible I will have a lot of extra enhancement points before I reach the Wizard stage of its development, and I use them in Tempest or other and reset at this stage. Not a big deal.

I have a Supreme +8 Tome (not needed, just got from the 10th Anniversary pack as expected), and one Paladin Past Life.

Thoughts?


Vampire Ninja Tempest
9/6/5 Monk/Ranger/Wizard
Lawful Neutral Human


Level Order

1. Ranger 6. Ranger 11. Monk 16. Wizard
2. Monk 7. Ranger 12. Monk 17. Wizard
3. Ranger 8. Ranger 13. Monk 18. Wizard
4. Monk 9. Monk 14. Monk 19. Wizard
5. Ranger 10. Monk 15. Monk 20. Wizard


Stats
34pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 16 +8 4: STR
Dexterity 15 +8 8: STR
Constitution 16 +8 12: STR
Intelligence 12 +8 16: STR
Wisdom 10 +8 20: STR
Charisma 8 +8 24: STR
28: STR

Feats

1 : Dodge
1 Human : Weapon Focus: Slashing
2 Monk : Whirling Steel Strike
3 : Precision
4 Monk : Mobility
6 : Spring Attack
9 : Knight's Training
12 : Quicken Spell
12 Monk : Toughness
15 : Master of Forms
16 Wizard : Extend Spell
18 : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
20 Wizard : Spell Focus: Necromancy
21 Epic :
24 Epic :
26 Destiny:
27 Epic :
28 Destiny:
29 Destiny:
30 Epic :
30 Legend :

9 Monk : Path of Inevitable Dominion

1 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
7 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Construct

Enhancements (80 AP)

Eldritch Knight (Wizard) (35 AP)
• Eldritch Strike, Spellsword
1. Improved Mage Armor III, Toughness III
2. Improved Shield III, Mystic Wards III, Spellpower Boost III, Wand and Scroll Mastery II
3. Arcane Barrier, Synergetic Magic, Critical Mastery III
4. Knight's Transformation, Force's Point
5. Improved Knight's Transformation, Eldritch Tempest III

Tempest (27 AP)
• Shield of Whirling Steel, Tempest
1. Improved Reaction III, Improved Defense III, Whirling Blades
2. Improved Parry II, Improved Dodge III, Whirling Blades, Haste Boost III
3. Storm Dancer, Improved Mobility III
4. Storm Tempest

Pale Master (14 AP)
• Dark Reaping, Shroud of the Vampire
1. Negative Energy Conduit III, Deathless Vigor I
2. Cloak of Night, Efficient Quicken III

Ninja Spy (4 AP)
• Basic Ninja Training
1. Acrobatic III

[unbongwah]

Most undead builds go for at least wizard 7 to grab Death Aura. That also lets you grab an Undead Augmentation from PM 6.

If you're not going for tier-5 Tempest, I question whether it's worth going ranger 6.

For that matter, you went to monk 9 for Improved Evasion yet hardly spent any APs on monk abilities. You didn't even grab Deft Strikes, which FYI also gives +10% offhand and stacks with Tempest.

I guess I'm just not sure what you're trying to accomplish here that wouldn't be better served by, say, wizard 18 / monk 2 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/505968-The-Mage-Knight-Ultimate-Monk-with-a-hint-of-flashy-skills-Rofeghender) or maybe monk 12 / wizard 8.

[Nickodeamous]

I just got done playing 2 versions of the monk/wizard. The first was 16 wiz/ 2 monk/2 fighter. I didn't like this build honestly. I did fighter for extra feats and picked up WWA (which BTW, is hardly useable in heroics). I went vampire in all 3 lives.

Now, the build that is basically a great leveling build is 18 wiz/2 monk.

Key takeaways would be:
You play like a handwrap monk, but throw fireballs/acid (combustion/Corrosion items)
You run as a vampire
Once you hit level 12, you pick up Eldritch tempest, which is a room cleared with its burst

Point breakdown was something like this:
Vistani 8 for Haste Boost
Shintao: 4 I think for offhand strike 10%
EK: maybe 41-42. make sure you pick up cores for Spellsword.
Harper: 12 for KTA
PM: enough to get Vampire (6 I think)

The rest you can spread as you see fit.

This build is fun for leveling, but not great (at least for me in harder reapers (r4+), mostly due to my gear). I'll use this build for racials. I can play like a monk, and have good survivability.

Nico

[SouCarioca]

Most undead builds go for at least wizard 7 to grab Death Aura. That also lets you grab an Undead Augmentation from PM 6.

If you're not going for tier-5 Tempest, I question whether it's worth going ranger 6.

For that matter, you went to monk 9 for Improved Evasion yet hardly spent any APs on monk abilities. You didn't even grab Deft Strikes, which FYI also gives +10% offhand and stacks with Tempest.

I guess I'm just not sure what you're trying to accomplish here that wouldn't be better served by, say, wizard 18 / monk 2 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/505968-The-Mage-Knight-Ultimate-Monk-with-a-hint-of-flashy-skills-Rofeghender) or maybe monk 12 / wizard 8.

So I have a new version, called Casper the Friendly Ghost, which a veteran from my guild helped put together, finetuning my general concept. I will post it in Multiclass where I probably should have posted this anyhow.

[C-Dog]

This reminded me of a similar thread - had to do some digging, but here it is, a "pale mechanic", Ranged undead Rogue...

o https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/510638-f2p-first-life-pale-mechanic?p=6273725&viewfull=1#post6273725

(Read whole thread for comments and critiques)

Long story short, it works, it just doesn't work ~well~, which leaves us with what is often called a "flavor build" (and sometimes much worse :rolleyes:). If you like it and want to try it for the "fun" factor, go with it 100%, just don't expect to lead any kill counts or be the last one standing in a near wipe.

[Careall]

The primary benefit of multiclassing a wizard and/or taking PM/EK is to add variety to a wizard and be able to fill other grouping roles: You can fill those roles as needed, but never as good as a specialist.
Adding a monk with all the requirements necessary to dual wield swords efficiently makes this build a bit of a glass cannon (low hp + high dps) that can go easy on mana usage. The build probably does enjoy high dps and some decent healing, even without Death Aura, assuming you have the equipment to back it up - mainly for negative healing and spell power for dps. You should also consider running with an intimi-tank and do everything you can to lower agro on yourself. Backstabs can also add quite a bit of damage. Lesser Death Aura is decent for between-fights healing, but it doesn't do a lot in Reaper. Most of the healing will come from vampire strikes, which might be limited to trigger only once per second. It's still good healing, but maybe not as much as you might think.

Suggestions:
Intelligence seems to be nearly a throw-away stat on this build while a lot of points go into strength. I'd dump strength and let your +8 tome meet any necessary strength requirements (I don't see any, but I might have missed something).
Take an Int to Hit Enhancement from either the EK or Har trees, then let your Spell Power (the Spellsight skill is Int based) do all the damage.

[SouCarioca]

So what I did was make some changes, enacted with the help of one of my guild's veterans. Tier 5 was moved to Tempest exactly as Ung suggested, Vampire was moved to Wraith instead which will know bring a ton of survivability with all the dodge, concealment, and displacements. Here is the revised build in case you are curious:


Wraith Ninja Tempest
9/6/5 Monk/Wizard/Ranger
Lawful Neutral Human

Level Order

1. Ranger 6. Monk 11. Wizard 16. Monk
2. Ranger 7. Monk 12. Wizard 17. Monk
3. Ranger 8. Wizard 13. Wizard 18. Monk
4. Ranger 9. Wizard 14. Monk 19. Monk
5. Ranger 10. Wizard 15. Monk 20. Monk


Stats
34pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 13 +8 4: DEX
Dexterity 17 +8 8: DEX
Constitution 16 +8 12: DEX
Intelligence 14 +8 16: DEX
Wisdom 8 +8 20: DEX
Charisma 8 +8 24: DEX
28: DEX

Feats

1 : Dodge
1 Human : Weapon Focus: Slashing
3 : Mobility
6 : Knight's Training
6 Monk : Whirling Steel Strike
7 Monk : Precision
8 Wizard : Extend Spell
9 : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12 : Improved Critical: Slashing
12 Wizard : Quicken Spell
15 : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
17 Monk : Spring Attack
18 : Master of Forms
21 Epic :
24 Epic :
26 Destiny:
27 Epic :
28 Destiny:
29 Destiny:
30 Epic :
30 Legend :

14 Monk : Path of Harmonious Balance

1 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
5 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Construct


Enhancements (80 AP)

Tempest (37 AP)
• Shield of Whirling Steel, Tempest
1. Improved Reaction III, Improved Defense III, Whirling Blades
2. Improved Parry I, Improved Dodge III, Whirling Blades, Haste Boost III
3. Storm Dancer, Improved Mobility III, Whirling Blades
4. Storm Tempest, Whirling Blades
5. Dual Perfection, Whirling Blades, Dance of Death III

Eldritch Knight (Wizard) (18 AP)
• Eldritch Strike, Spellsword, Imbue the Blade
1. Improved Mage Armor III, Toughness II
2. Improved Shield III, Spellpower Boost III
3. Arcane Barrier, Synergetic Magic

Ninja Spy (11 AP)
• Basic Ninja Training, Advanced Ninja Training, Shadow Veil
1. Sneak Attack Training, Acrobatic III
2. Agility III

Pale Master (11 AP)
• Dark Reaping, Shroud of the Wraith, Ghost in the Wind
1. Negative Energy Conduit III, Deathless Vigor II
2. Cloak of Night

Shintao (3 AP)
• Bastion of Purity
1. Deft Strikes II

[SouCarioca]

The primary benefit of multiclassing...

I will be the first to state I am a noob. But for me the primary benefit, honestly, is the creative options it allows, whether as a 'flavor' build, or trying to achieve greater results than a pure build alone might have. Now, I have no interest in a flavor build that is completely crippled either, or I'd not even ask the group, I'd just leap out of that plane and hope that bag I had on was a parachute. :-) The idea though is to provide a different build, with perhaps slightly different strengths, that can hold its own obviously. In any case, thanks for helping provide insight.

[Careall]

I will be the first to state I am a noob. But for me the primary benefit, honestly, is the creative options it allows, whether as a 'flavor' build, or trying to achieve greater results than a pure build alone might have. Now, I have no interest in a flavor build that is completely crippled either, or I'd not even ask the group, I'd just leap out of that plane and hope that bag I had on was a parachute. :-) The idea though is to provide a different build, with perhaps slightly different strengths, that can hold its own obviously. In any case, thanks for helping provide insight.

I did not intend to imply flavor isn't important. To clarify, a primary benefit is not exclusive of a desire for flavor, primary or otherwise. Both are valid, but they are distinctly different. The moment you start taking away from a pure class, you are by default weakening that class [hopefully] in favor of other benefits. Otherwise, you might be making a challenge build, like a zombie monk. Try it some time, just for fun, and you might get my meaning here. I agree with your build improving offhand and double strike attacks to increase the vampire's attack healing. In exchange, your spell DCs are taking a hit, and that's what wizards are typically good at. I think you would do better with more wizard levels, but there are recognized tradeoffs. With that +8 tome, you can definitely get away with most of those tradeoffs.

[SouCarioca]

I did not intend to imply flavor isn't important. To clarify, a primary benefit is not exclusive of a desire for flavor, primary or otherwise. Both are valid, but they are distinctly different. The moment you start taking away from a pure class, you are by default weakening that class [hopefully] in favor of other benefits. Otherwise, you might be making a challenge build, like a zombie monk. Try it some time, just for fun, and you might get my meaning here. I agree with your build improving offhand and double strike attacks to increase the vampire's attack healing. In exchange, your spell DCs are taking a hit, and that's what wizards are typically good at. I think you would do better with more wizard levels, but there are recognized tradeoffs. With that +8 tome, you can definitely get away with most of those tradeoffs.

The real question is where? As you said, there are tradeoffs. I need 5 levels of Ranger to get Tier 5, so unless I ditch that, it is not an option. That leaves Monk. I took monk to level 9 really only for the Enhanced Evasion which seems like a huge boon to the build. Obviously Master of Adept was added for the Windstance benefits. I know there are some perks in Tempest (Evasive Dance) that seem similar, but my ignorance does not tell me if they are the same, or worst. Are they interchangeable? And if not, would the Wizard levels outweigh this? If so, how?

[unbongwah]

Shadow Veil and wraith form's Incorporealty bonuses don't stack.

The main problem is I think you're trying to squeeze too many elements onto one build. You should pare down your wish list IMO. Submitted for your consideration: ranger 12 / wizard 7 / monk 1.

Enhancements: 40 Tempest / 24 DWS / 11 PM / 4 Shintao / 1 Ninja

40 Tempest for all the tier-5 goodies and core enhancements (+10% offhand, +1 crit multiplier) - Evasive Dance is functional identical to Improved Evasion, although you probably have to give up some DPS to afford it
24 DWS for Killer + Adv Sneak Atk (+1 crit range)
11 Pale Master for undead form and Augmentation
4 Shintao for Deft Strikes (+10% offhand)
1 Ninja for DEX to hit

I confirmed that if you have the first Ninja core + DWS's Improved Weapon Finesse, you get DEX to hit and damage with longswords (https://i.imgur.com/bKGANCj.jpg) as long as you're centered.

Required feats: Precision, Weapon Focus Slashing + Whirling Steel Strike, Knight's Training, Improved+Overwhelming Critical. For your wizard feats, I would probably take Extend+Quicken. Beyond that, it's up to you: e.g., extra monk stances, Spring Attack chain, whatever.

So you keep most of what's great about Tempest+DWS, have 16-20/x4 critical threat range with longswords, 100% offhand proc chance, monk stances, level 4 spells (Death Aura, NEB), and an undead form you can use to boost defense (e.g., wraith+Ghost in the Wind for 20% Incorporealty) or offense (e.g., vampire+Inflict Weariness for heal-on-hit+energy drain).

Downsides: there's no wiggle room with Enhancements unless you have bonus APs from tome and/or racial PLs; all the squishiness of any centered toon; all the difficulties of self-unhealing on a level 7 wizard.

[Careall]

The real question is where? As you said, there are tradeoffs. I need 5 levels of Ranger to get Tier 5, so unless I ditch that, it is not an option. That leaves Monk. I took monk to level 9 really only for the Enhanced Evasion which seems like a huge boon to the build. Obviously Master of Adept was added for the Windstance benefits. I know there are some perks in Tempest (Evasive Dance) that seem similar, but my ignorance does not tell me if they are the same, or worst. Are they interchangeable? And if not, would the Wizard levels outweigh this? If so, how?

Most of what you are asking about boils down to playstyle. Do you want to be a caster, melee, or both? Since you have so many monk levels and ranger tempest, I'd guess melee. Therefore, you may not be watering down a wizard with monk and ranger levels, but reducing a monk with wizard and ranger levels, or a ranger with monk and wizard levels. Which one isn't for me to say - that's your playstyle. I can only say that at least one of those is happening.

My guess is that you want a monk able to take Path of Inevitable Dominion and still be able to heal? The tradeoff is that 5 wizard levels won't quite do enough healing for most Elite and Reaper content. For example, consider this:
"...your melee and unarmed attacks have a (10%) chance to heal you for 1d3 Negative Energy damage per Wizard Level."
In other words, while hitting more often for an increased chance of healing, VNT (Vampire Ninja Tempest) heals for less each healing hit. For an example of other trade-offs, consider the pure wizard build below.

1) Bleeder has a decent doublestrike and offhand weapon chance, but not as good as a monk/ranger multiclass.
1.1) In exchange for the reduced number of attacks, Bleeder has four considerable and constant healing sources from Vampire melee attacks, LDA, DA, and GDA, which can also do damage (but I don't count on it).
2) Bleeder's enchantment DCs are fairly high for a combat-oriented EK build (and can be higher with some easy modifications)
3) Bleeder trades Evasion for raw hit points, AC, and defensive buffs - and this build can run through traps just fine (just don't stop in them, usually).
4) Bleeder can use any martial weapon, but can't use hand wraps.
5) Bleeder is a burst DPS build, but can quickly take out groups of trash and can stand toe-to-toe with a lot of named bosses, even in Reaper.
5.1) Vampire Ninja Tempest is a constant high dps build, particularly if a tank can grab agro, but has low healing and cannot easily survive face-to-face combat with powerful mobs.
6) Bleeder is not a monk and belongs in a different thread.
7) Bleeder is probably better for soloing, but I enjoy the support of backstabbing DPS builds when I group.




Character name: Bleeder
Classes: 20 Wizard
Race: Human · · · · · · · ·Alignment: Lawful Neutral

· · ·Start Tome Final
Str:· · 10· · 8 · ·18 · · ·HP:· · · · 778 · · ·AC:· · 19
Dex:· · 16· · 8 · ·24 · · ·PRR: · · · ·10
Con:· · 16· · 8 · ·33 · · ·MRR: · · · ·10 · · ·+Healing Amp:· · ·0
Int:· · 16· · 8 · ·28 · · ·Dodge: · ·0/25 · · ·-Healing Amp:· · 78
Wis:· · ·8· · 8 · ·16 · · ·Fort:· · · ·0% · · ·Repair Amp:· · · ·0
Cha:· · ·8· · 8 · ·16 · · ·SR:· · · · · 0 · · ·BAB: · · · · · · 20
DR:
Immunities: Deathblock

Class and Feat Selection
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level Class · · · · · ·Feats
1 · · Wizard(1) · · · ·Standard: Toughness
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Human Bonus: Two Weapon Fighting
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Metamagic: Mental Toughness
2 · · Wizard(2) · · · ·
3 · · Wizard(3) · · · ·Standard: Toughness
4 · · Wizard(4) · · · ·Constitution: +1 Level up
5 · · Wizard(5) · · · ·Metamagic: Extend Spell
6 · · Wizard(6) · · · ·Standard: Insightful Reflexes
7 · · Wizard(7) · · · ·
8 · · Wizard(8) · · · ·Constitution: +1 Level up
9 · · Wizard(9) · · · ·Standard: Toughness
10· · Wizard(10)· · · ·Metamagic: Heighten Spell
11· · Wizard(11)· · · ·
12· · Wizard(12)· · · ·Standard: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Constitution: +1 Level up
13· · Wizard(13)· · · ·
14· · Wizard(14)· · · ·
15· · Wizard(15)· · · ·Standard: Toughness
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Metamagic: Improved Mental Toughness
16· · Wizard(16)· · · ·Constitution: +1 Level up
17· · Wizard(17)· · · ·
18· · Wizard(18)· · · ·Standard: Precision
19· · Wizard(19)· · · ·
20· · Wizard(20)· · · ·Metamagic: Maximize Spell
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Constitution: +1 Level up


Skills
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill Points· · ·24 ·7· 7 ·7· 7 ·7· 8 ·8· 8 ·8· 8 ·8· 8 ·8· 9 ·9· 9 ·9· 9 ·9
Skill Name· · · ·01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20· Total Buffed
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balance · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 17.0
Bluff · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 13.0
Concentration · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 21.0
Diplomacy · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 13.0
Disable Device· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 19.0
Haggle· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 13.0
Heal· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 13.0
Hide· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 17.0
Intimidate· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 13.0
Jump· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 14.0
Listen· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 13.0
Move Silently · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 17.0
Open Lock · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 17.0
Perform · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 13.0
Repair· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 19.0
Search· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 19.0
Spell Craft · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 19.0
Spot· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 13.0
Swim· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 14.0
Tumble· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 17.0
Use Magic Device· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 13.0
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Available Points 24 ·7· 7 ·7· 7 ·7· 8 ·8· 8 ·8· 8 ·8· 8 ·8· 9 ·9· 9 ·9· 9 ·9
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enhancements: 80 APs
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Points spent: 39
1 Core ·(1) Eldritch Strike
2 Tier1 (1) Item Defense
3 Tier1 (1) Toughness
4 Tier1 (1) Toughness
5 Tier1 (1) Toughness
6 Core ·(1) Spellsword
7 Tier1 (1) Improved Mage Armor
8 Tier1 (1) Improved Mage Armor
9 Tier1 (1) Improved Mage Armor
10 Tier2 (1) Improved Shield
11 Tier2 (1) Improved Shield
12 Tier2 (1) Improved Shield
13 Tier2 (1) Mystic Wards
14 Tier2 (1) Mystic Wards
15 Tier2 (1) Mystic Wards
16 Core ·(1) Imbue the Blade
17 Tier3 (2) Arcane Barrier
18 Tier3 (2) Eldritch Accuracy
19 Core ·(1) Subtle Force I
20 Tier4 (2) Knight's Transformation
21 Tier4 (2) Armored Arcana
22 Tier4 (2) Force's Point
23 Tier1 (1) Arcane Siphon
24 Tier1 (1) Arcane Siphon
25 Tier1 (1) Arcane Siphon
26 Tier5 (2) Improved Knight's Transformation
27 Tier5 (2) Knight's Arcanum: Knight's Controller
28 Tier5 (2) Force's Edge
29 Core ·(1) Subtle Force II
30 Tier5 (1) Eldritch Tempest
31 Tier5 (1) Eldritch Tempest
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pale Master - Points spent: 41
1 Core ·(1) Dark Reaping
2 Tier1 (2) Deathless Vigor
3 Tier1 (2) Deathless Vigor
4 Core ·(1) Pale Shroud: Shroud of the Vampire
5 Tier1 (2) Spell Critical: Negative Energy I
6 Tier2 (2) Spell Critical: Negative Energy II
7 Tier1 (1) Negative Energy Conduit
8 Core ·(1) Undead Augmentation I: Deathly Touch
9 Tier3 (1) Negative Energy Adept
10 Tier3 (1) Negative Energy Adept
11 Tier3 (1) Negative Energy Adept
12 Tier1 (1) Negative Energy Conduit
13 Tier1 (1) Negative Energy Conduit
14 Tier3 (2) Ability I: +1 Constitution
15 Tier3 (2) Spell Critical: Negative Energy III
16 Tier4 (2) Ability II: +1 Constitution
17 Tier4 (2) Spell Critical: Negative Energy IV
18 Tier4 (1) Unholy Avatar
19 Core ·(1) Undead Augmentation II: Deathly Resistance
20 Tier2 (2) Efficient Metamagic: Efficient Maximize
21 Tier2 (2) Efficient Metamagic: Efficient Maximize
22 Tier2 (2) Efficient Metamagic: Efficient Maximize
23 Core ·(1) Undead Augmentation III: +2 Enchantment DC
24 Tier1 (1) Necrotic Touch
25 Tier1 (1) Necrotic Touch
26 Tier3 (1) Necrotic Bolt
27 Tier3 (1) Necrotic Bolt
28 Tier1 (2) Deathless Vigor
29 Core ·(1) Embrace the Void
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm not showing Bleeder to say Bleeder is a better build. Instead, Bleeder is a better PM/EK Wizard because of the focus on being the best wizard he can be. Taking two Monk levels is a valid option - I play exactly that on another build. However, that build is less tough and heals less in exchange for faster constant DPS.
Another note about Bleeder is that I don't have this build since it would require either a supreme tome or a few past lives and few +2/+5 tomes from favor. However, this build is based on my Bunny build, which is basically the same with sword and board instead of TWF. I talked a friend into trying a Bunny build. While he likes it, it's not his preferred playstyle, which is rogue. He doesn't play the Bunny build as well as I do, so I totally understand the playstyle preference.

[SouCarioca]

Shadow Veil and wraith form's Incorporealty bonuses don't stack.

I was told they proc separately, and therefore provide two independent checks.

As to the build, many thanks, I will look closely at it.

[unbongwah]

Unless it specifically says "stacking Incorporealty" (e.g., Eldritch Knight's Subtle Force II), it shouldn't stack. You should only get one incorporeal bonus just like you get only one concealment bonus.

Of course, this is DDO. There's probably 5 different subroutines for incorporealty and three of them are incompatible. :rolleyes:

[SouCarioca]

Shadow Veil and wraith form's Incorporealty bonuses don't stack.

The main problem is I think you're trying to squeeze too many elements onto one build. You should pare down your wish list IMO. Submitted for your consideration: ranger 12 / wizard 7 / monk 1.

Enhancements: 40 Tempest / 24 DWS / 11 PM / 4 Shintao / 1 Ninja

40 Tempest for all the tier-5 goodies and core enhancements (+10% offhand, +1 crit multiplier) - Evasive Dance is functional identical to Improved Evasion, although you probably have to give up some DPS to afford it
24 DWS for Killer + Adv Sneak Atk (+1 crit range)
11 Pale Master for undead form and Augmentation
4 Shintao for Deft Strikes (+10% offhand)
1 Ninja for DEX to hit

I confirmed that if you have the first Ninja core + DWS's Improved Weapon Finesse, you get DEX to hit and damage with longswords (https://i.imgur.com/bKGANCj.jpg) as long as you're centered.

Required feats: Precision, Weapon Focus Slashing + Whirling Steel Strike, Knight's Training, Improved+Overwhelming Critical. For your wizard feats, I would probably take Extend+Quicken. Beyond that, it's up to you: e.g., extra monk stances, Spring Attack chain, whatever.

So you keep most of what's great about Tempest+DWS, have 16-20/x4 critical threat range with longswords, 100% offhand proc chance, monk stances, level 4 spells (Death Aura, NEB), and an undead form you can use to boost defense (e.g., wraith+Ghost in the Wind for 20% Incorporealty) or offense (e.g., vampire+Inflict Weariness for heal-on-hit+energy drain).

Downsides: there's no wiggle room with Enhancements unless you have bonus APs from tome and/or racial PLs; all the squishiness of any centered toon; all the difficulties of self-unhealing on a level 7 wizard.

So this was very cool, and I thank you for it. I don't know if I messed up on this, but I wondered if instead of going 100% with Shintao, it might not be a plan to add some EK with Spellsword (which would scale with Spell Power as well). Here is what the AP distribution looked like. Feel free to point out any oversights.


Class and Feat Selection
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level Class · · · · · ·Feats
1 · · Ranger(1) · · · ·Standard: Dodge
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Human Bonus: Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Favored Enemy: Favored enemy: Undead
2 · · Ranger(2) · · · ·
3 · · Ranger(3) · · · ·Standard: Precision
4 · · Ranger(4) · · · ·Dexterity: +1 Level up
5 · · Ranger(5) · · · ·Favored Enemy: Favored enemy: Construct
6 · · Monk(1) · · · · ·Standard: Knight's Training
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Monk Bonus: Whirling Steel Strike
7 · · Wizard(1) · · · ·Metamagic: Extend Spell
8 · · Wizard(2) · · · ·Dexterity: +1 Level up
9 · · Wizard(3) · · · ·Standard: Adept of Forms
10· · Wizard(4) · · · ·
11· · Wizard(5) · · · ·Metamagic: Quicken Spell
12· · Wizard(6) · · · ·Standard: Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Dexterity: +1 Level up
13· · Wizard(7) · · · ·
14· · Ranger(6) · · · ·
15· · Ranger(7) · · · ·Standard: Mobility
16· · Ranger(8) · · · ·Dexterity: +1 Level up
17· · Ranger(9) · · · ·
18· · Ranger(10)· · · ·Standard: Spring Attack
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Favored Enemy: Favored enemy: Evil Outsider
19· · Ranger(11)· · · ·
20· · Ranger(12)· · · ·Dexterity: +1 Level up
21· · Epic(1) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Overwhelming Critical
22· · Epic(2) · · · · ·
23· · Epic(3) · · · · ·
24· · Epic(4) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Master of Forms
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Dexterity: +1 Level up
25· · Epic(5) · · · · ·
26· · Epic(6) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Empty Feat Slot
27· · Epic(7) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Empty Feat Slot
28· · Epic(8) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Empty Feat Slot
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Dexterity: +1 Level up
29· · Epic(9) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Empty Feat Slot
30· · Epic(10)· · · · ·Epic Feat: Empty Feat Slot
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Legendary: Empty Feat Slot

Granted Feats
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deflect Arrows
Light Armor Proficiency
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Enhancements: 80 APs
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tempest - Points spent: 38
1 Core ·(1) Shield of Whirling Steel
2 Tier1 (1) Improved Defence
3 Tier1 (1) Improved Defence
4 Tier1 (1) Improved Defence
5 Tier1 (2) Whirling Blades I
6 Core ·(1) Tempest
7 Tier1 (1) Improved Reaction
8 Tier1 (1) Improved Reaction
9 Tier1 (1) Improved Reaction
10 Tier2 (1) Improved Dodge
11 Tier2 (1) Improved Dodge
12 Tier2 (1) Improved Dodge
13 Tier2 (2) Whirling Blades II
14 Tier3 (2) Whirling Blades III
15 Tier3 (1) Improved Mobility
16 Tier3 (1) Improved Mobility
17 Tier3 (1) Improved Mobility
18 Tier4 (2) Whirling Blades IV
19 Tier3 (2) Storm Dancer
20 Tier4 (2) Storm Tempest
21 Tier2 (1) Action Boost: Haste Boost
22 Tier2 (1) Action Boost: Haste Boost
23 Tier2 (1) Action Boost: Haste Boost
24 Core ·(1) Graceful Death
25 Tier5 (1) Dance of Death
26 Tier5 (1) Dance of Death
27 Tier5 (1) Dance of Death
28 Tier5 (2) Dual Perfection
29 Core ·(1) Deflect Arrows
30 Tier5 (2) Whirling Blades V
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deepwood Stalker - Points spent: 24
1 Core ·(1) Far Shot
2 Tier1 (1) Stealthy
3 Tier1 (1) Stealthy
4 Tier1 (1) Stealthy
5 Tier1 (1) Favored Defense
6 Tier2 (2) Survivalist I
7 Core ·(1) Sneak Attack
8 Tier2 (1) Action Boost: Melee/Ranged Power Boost
9 Tier2 (1) Action Boost: Melee/Ranged Power Boost
10 Tier3 (2) Survivalist II
11 Tier3 (1) Thrill of the Hunt
12 Tier3 (1) Thrill of the Hunt
13 Tier3 (1) Thrill of the Hunt
14 Core ·(1) Called Shot: Exposing Strike
15 Tier2 (1) Action Boost: Melee/Ranged Power Boost
16 Tier2 (1) Improved Weapon Finesse
17 Tier3 (1) Favored Hunter
18 Tier3 (1) Favored Hunter
19 Core ·(1) Advanced Sneak Attack
20 Tier4 (1) Killer
21 Tier4 (1) Killer
22 Tier4 (1) Killer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ninja Spy - Points spent: 1
1 Core ·(1) Basic Ninja Training
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pale Master - Points spent: 11
1 Core ·(1) Dark Reaping
2 Tier1 (1) Negative Energy Conduit
3 Tier1 (1) Negative Energy Conduit
4 Tier1 (1) Negative Energy Conduit
5 Tier1 (2) Deathless Vigor
6 Core ·(1) Pale Shroud: Pale Master: Shroud of the Wraith
7 Tier2 (1) Cloak of Night
8 Tier1 (2) Deathless Vigor
9 Core ·(1) Undead Augmentation I: Ghost in the Wind
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Points spent: 6
1 Core ·(1) Eldritch Strike
2 Tier1 (1) Toughness
3 Tier1 (1) Toughness
4 Tier1 (1) Toughness
5 Tier1 (1) Battlemage
6 Core ·(1) Spellsword

[SouCarioca]

Most of what you are asking about boils down to playstyle. Do you want to be a caster, melee, or both? Since you have so many monk levels and ranger tempest, I'd guess melee. Therefore, you may not be watering down a wizard with monk and ranger levels, but reducing a monk with wizard and ranger levels, or a ranger with monk and wizard levels. Which one isn't for me to say - that's your playstyle. I can only say that at least one of those is happening.

Another note about Bleeder is that I don't have this build since it would require either a supreme tome or a few past lives and few +2/+5 tomes from favor. However, this build is based on my Bunny build, which is basically the same with sword and board instead of TWF. I talked a friend into trying a Bunny build. While he likes it, it's not his preferred playstyle, which is rogue. He doesn't play the Bunny build as well as I do, so I totally understand the playstyle preference.

Right. For now, I know that genuine Monk is a bit of a handful for a noob. It is a fascinating and rich option, but it is also an advanced one that requires familiarity with its many features, and ability to juggle them all. I don't feel I lack dexterity but when you don't even know half the quests in the game, nevermind items, and more, it becomes a lot. I tried, and gave up for a later time. So yes, a variant of melee with more options than just bashing the sword button is in the works.

The richness of character builds is easily one of the biggest draws in DDO, if not the biggest. I am sure there must be ways to combine the classes to not just achieve flavors, but genuinely attractive alternatives in playing options without always coming out with a crippled result. My initial build was likely biting too much off as Unbongwah suggested, but that he came up with a build that actually fit a lot of my wishes was a credit to his experience and ability to discern what I sought. It also helped me understand better what I should be looking at too, as did your own post.

[Haphazarduk]

I just got done playing 2 versions of the monk/wizard. The first was 16 wiz/ 2 monk/2 fighter. I didn't like this build honestly. I did fighter for extra feats and picked up WWA (which BTW, is hardly useable in heroics). I went vampire in all 3 lives.

Now, the build that is basically a great levelling build is 18 wiz/2 monk.


This is the build I'm levelling at the moment. I really like it. I don't do the TR train thing so the toon only has one or two pastlives and my kit is so so but I can reliably function in R3 if I'm not too reckless. Durability is surprisingly good. EK provides HP, PM/Shin some PRR and displacement/dodge gives good additional mitigation. Add constant healing through Death Aura and I've found I can stay up pretty well.

What do you mean by WWA being hardly useable in heroics? You do get it late because of feat requirements...

Hap

OP: One thing you should be aware of; Dance of Death is not good for RSI... Its like Vistani t5 actives - hard on the button cycles.

[Careall]

Right. For now, I know that genuine Monk is a bit of a handful for a noob. It is a fascinating and rich option, but it is also an advanced one that requires familiarity with its many features, and ability to juggle them all. I don't feel I lack dexterity but when you don't even know half the quests in the game, nevermind items, and more, it becomes a lot. I tried, and gave up for a later time. So yes, a variant of melee with more options than just bashing the sword button is in the works.

The richness of character builds is easily one of the biggest draws in DDO, if not the biggest. I am sure there must be ways to combine the classes to not just achieve flavors, but genuinely attractive alternatives in playing options without always coming out with a crippled result. My initial build was likely biting too much off as Unbongwah suggested, but that he came up with a build that actually fit a lot of my wishes was a credit to his experience and ability to discern what I sought. It also helped me understand better what I should be looking at too, as did your own post.

Challenges playing a monk are not so much noob-related as they are first-life related (noob can relate to difficulties across the board for any build). While a monk can be a first-life toon, they tend to spread out their abilities too much to be effective. Alternatively, a third-life 36-point build with two +2 stat tomes (1750 favor is easy) is able to spread out some ability points. Of course, a supreme tome, as indicated, also does the trick. A third life monk build should also have some decent equipment, if planned for correctly. Monk is also a difficult playstyle to grasp. While combatants, monks usually can't tank well (there are exceptions). They mainly focus on dealing high dps and some crowd control. If not a pure monk, the ability to cc starts to drop considerably after swapping out more than a few monk levels. Monks generally tend to be glass cannons, relying on an intimitank or caster cc's to protect them, making for good grouping toons, but poor at soloing.

That all said, monks have to use their abilities a lot more than most other builds, which requires knowledge of a decent hotkey setup and being able to twist those abilities effectively together. Definitely not noob-friendly.

[Nickodeamous]

This is the build I'm levelling at the moment. I really like it. I don't do the TR train thing so the toon only has one or two pastlives and my kit is so so but I can reliably function in R3 if I'm not too reckless. Durability is surprisingly good. EK provides HP, PM/Shin some PRR and displacement/dodge gives good additional mitigation. Add constant healing through Death Aura and I've found I can stay up pretty well.

What do you mean by WWA being hardly useable in heroics? You do get it late because of feat requirements...

Hap

OP: One thing you should be aware of; Dance of Death is not good for RSI... Its like Vistani t5 actives - hard on the button cycles.

Yeah, its a solid leveling build. I will probably use it again for some racials.

as for WWA, SSG added Doublestrike to WWA, but nerfed the speed of the actual animation into the ground, so that you really dont benefit from it until you cross a certain Doublestrike threshold. When I ran 2 monk/2 fighter, I was able to pick it up by level 6, and it proved to be a major drag. it slows down the entire attack sequence. anyway, I have a few threads on the general forum on this subject and SSG does agree that in heroics at least, it is not optimal. Just another nerf that may not have been intended.

Nico

[SouCarioca]

Shadow Veil and wraith form's Incorporealty bonuses don't stack.

The main problem is I think you're trying to squeeze too many elements onto one build. You should pare down your wish list IMO. Submitted for your consideration: ranger 12 / wizard 7 / monk 1.

Enhancements: 40 Tempest / 24 DWS / 11 PM / 4 Shintao / 1 Ninja

40 Tempest for all the tier-5 goodies and core enhancements (+10% offhand, +1 crit multiplier) - Evasive Dance is functional identical to Improved Evasion, although you probably have to give up some DPS to afford it
24 DWS for Killer + Adv Sneak Atk (+1 crit range)
11 Pale Master for undead form and Augmentation
4 Shintao for Deft Strikes (+10% offhand)
1 Ninja for DEX to hit

I confirmed that if you have the first Ninja core + DWS's Improved Weapon Finesse, you get DEX to hit and damage with longswords (https://i.imgur.com/bKGANCj.jpg) as long as you're centered.

Required feats: Precision, Weapon Focus Slashing + Whirling Steel Strike, Knight's Training, Improved+Overwhelming Critical. For your wizard feats, I would probably take Extend+Quicken. Beyond that, it's up to you: e.g., extra monk stances, Spring Attack chain, whatever.

So you keep most of what's great about Tempest+DWS, have 16-20/x4 critical threat range with longswords, 100% offhand proc chance, monk stances, level 4 spells (Death Aura, NEB), and an undead form you can use to boost defense (e.g., wraith+Ghost in the Wind for 20% Incorporealty) or offense (e.g., vampire+Inflict Weariness for heal-on-hit+energy drain).

Downsides: there's no wiggle room with Enhancements unless you have bonus APs from tome and/or racial PLs; all the squishiness of any centered toon; all the difficulties of self-unhealing on a level 7 wizard.

So this build is now lvl22 (I am not of the zerging group that does all this in days), and I need to say I think you did a far more brilliant job than you imagine. The build has some unexpected qualities and sinergies that I think even you did not foresee. This is still just a second life toon, from a second life player, so no reams of Reaper points or anything of the sort.

For offense I have equipped it with two Oathblades, which are easy enough to farm (about 1h30 to 2 hours each), and give it 13-20 for Crits in each with a x4 multiplier. Its offense is also aided by 6 APs spent in EK, which I use for Fire elemental damage mostly (though can switch as needed of course). However this is increased by how well this build synergizes with Divine Crusader. Divine Crusader offers +30 Fire Spell power, extra Crit range, plenty of Confront Any Enemy (I have a stock of 15 that recharge at this level) Consecration, Aura of Purification (with added perks) and so on. The Offense actually has a solid effect on mobs, since a battle will start and once surrounded, I throw Consecration, and then start with Dance of Devils, which enables Strikethrough for the next many seconds on all my weapons, followed by Eldritch Strike, which cleaves everyone with strikethrough, doublestrike and EK elemental damage (a small conflagration each time this is done), while spamming Confront and normal attacks. Etc.

For defense, it is far from a tank, no question, but even without the Dodge (now just 24%), Incorporeality (20%) and Displacement (always on pretty much) at 50%, the base AC is at 70, which is not Tank level, but nor is it the naked fighter I feared it might become. This is still lvl22, and items and more can use an upgrade to improve that (most still lvl 15-ish).

Needless to say the Monk level offers AC perks with Wisdom points and the choice of Wind stance or Ocean stance as seen fit (Strength has nearly no use for this build). And yes, I can confirm it is always centered. Not to mention the long list of Undead perks listed here (https://ddowiki.com/page/Undead_type#Traits). I do like being able to open all locks and doors with Knock too (I added a pair of glasses with +5 Transmutation DC to give it that extra push when needed).

OP? Of course not, far from it, but much better than just a curious flavor build too.

[Oeuoe]

Shadow Veil and wraith form's Incorporealty bonuses don't stack.

The main problem is I think you're trying to squeeze too many elements onto one build. You should pare down your wish list IMO. Submitted for your consideration: ranger 12 / wizard 7 / monk 1.

Enhancements: 40 Tempest / 24 DWS / 11 PM / 4 Shintao / 1 Ninja

40 Tempest for all the tier-5 goodies and core enhancements (+10% offhand, +1 crit multiplier) - Evasive Dance is functional identical to Improved Evasion, although you probably have to give up some DPS to afford it
24 DWS for Killer + Adv Sneak Atk (+1 crit range)
11 Pale Master for undead form and Augmentation
4 Shintao for Deft Strikes (+10% offhand)
1 Ninja for DEX to hit

I confirmed that if you have the first Ninja core + DWS's Improved Weapon Finesse, you get DEX to hit and damage with longswords (https://i.imgur.com/bKGANCj.jpg) as long as you're centered.

Required feats: Precision, Weapon Focus Slashing + Whirling Steel Strike, Knight's Training, Improved+Overwhelming Critical. For your wizard feats, I would probably take Extend+Quicken. Beyond that, it's up to you: e.g., extra monk stances, Spring Attack chain, whatever.

So you keep most of what's great about Tempest+DWS, have 16-20/x4 critical threat range with longswords, 100% offhand proc chance, monk stances, level 4 spells (Death Aura, NEB), and an undead form you can use to boost defense (e.g., wraith+Ghost in the Wind for 20% Incorporealty) or offense (e.g., vampire+Inflict Weariness for heal-on-hit+energy drain).

Downsides: there's no wiggle room with Enhancements unless you have bonus APs from tome and/or racial PLs; all the squishiness of any centered toon; all the difficulties of self-unhealing on a level 7 wizard.

Taking this, and moving it over to using dual daggers and VFK, what would you drop? I feel like you could drop Shintao & DWS fairly easily, you dont need the core 4 of tempest either, giving you ~29 AP into VFK, grabbing centered, crit, celerity, 20% offhand strike, core 4 for 24ap.

maybe then take 5 remaining and put it into core 2 of ninja?

[unbongwah]

If you're switching to VKF, you don't need ranger 12 anymore, in which case you could do, say, wizard 12 / ranger 6 / monk 2: 44 Tempest / 24 VKF / 11 PM. The extra wizard levels means more spells and more oomph from NEB+Death Aura.