Shadarkai Alchemist/Bard/Rogue Dagger Thrower

[Raeaddil]

Here is my second attempt at a dagger thrower build. Please feel free to make suggestions to help improve it.


Character name: Alchemist/Bard Trapper
Classes: 12 Alchemist, 10 Epic, 6 Bard, 2 Rogue
Race: Shadar-Kai· · · · · ·Alignment: Neutral

· · ·Start Tome Final
Str:· · ·8· · 0 · · 8 · · ·HP:· · · · 271 · · ·AC:· · 14
Dex:· · 17· · 2 · ·19 · · ·PRR: · · · ·13
Con:· · 12· · 0 · ·12 · · ·MRR: · · · · 3 · · ·+Healing Amp:· · ·0
Int:· · 18· · 2 · ·29 · · ·Dodge: · ·4/25 · · ·-Healing Amp:· · ·0
Wis:· · ·8· · 0 · · 8 · · ·Fort:· · · ·0% · · ·Repair Amp:· · · ·0
Cha:· · 10· · 0 · ·10 · · ·SR:· · · · · 0 · · ·BAB: · · · · · · 20
DR:
Immunities: Natural Poison

Class and Feat Selection
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level Class · · · · · ·Feats
1 · · Rogue(1)· · · · ·Standard: Insightful Reflexes
2 · · Alchemist(1)· · ·
3 · · Bard(1) · · · · ·Standard: Point Blank Shot
4 · · Bard(2) · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
5 · · Bard(3) · · · · ·
6 · · Bard(4) · · · · ·Standard: Precision
7 · · Bard(5) · · · · ·
8 · · Alchemist(2)· · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
9 · · Alchemist(3)· · ·Standard: Precise Shot
10· · Alchemist(4)· · ·Alchemist Bonus: Rapid Shot
11· · Alchemist(5)· · ·
12· · Alchemist(6)· · ·Standard: Weapon Focus: Thrown Weapons
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
13· · Alchemist(7)· · ·
14· · Bard(6) · · · · ·
15· · Rogue(2)· · · · ·Standard: Improved Critical: Thrown Weapons
16· · Alchemist(8)· · ·Alchemist Bonus: Insightful Courage
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
17· · Alchemist(9)· · ·
18· · Alchemist(10) · ·Standard: Improved Precise Shot
19· · Alchemist(11) · ·
20· · Alchemist(12) · ·Alchemist Bonus: Quicken Spell
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
21· · Epic(1) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Overwhelming Critical
22· · Epic(2) · · · · ·
23· · Epic(3) · · · · ·
24· · Epic(4) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Power Critical
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
25· · Epic(5) · · · · ·
26· · Epic(6) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Holy Strike
27· · Epic(7) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Epic Damage Reduction
28· · Epic(8) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Doubleshot
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
29· · Epic(9) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Elusive Target
30· · Epic(10)· · · · ·Epic Feat: Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Legendary: Scion of Arborea

Skills
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill Points· · ·48 ·9 11 11 11 11 11 10 10 10 10 10 10 12 14 11 11 11 11 11
Skill Name· · · ·01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20· Total Buffed
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balance · · · · · 4 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·1· · · · · · · · ·1· · 6.0 · 24.0
Bluff · · · · · · 4 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 · · 2 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· · ·1· 2 ·1· 1 ·1· ·23.0 · 37.0
Concentration · · · ·5· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· · ·2· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· ·23.0 · 38.0
Diplomacy · · · · 4 · · 2 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 · · · ·3· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· · · · 3 ·1· 1 ·1· ·23.0 · 37.0
Disable Device· · 4 · · · · · · 1½ 1½ · · · ·1· 2 ·2· 2 · · 4 · · 1 ·2· 1 ·1· ·23.0 · 46.0
Haggle· · · · · · 3 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 3.0 · 17.0
Heal· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 13.0
Hide· · · · · · · 4 · · · ·3· 1 ·1· 1 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·10.0 · 28.0
Intimidate· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 14.0
Jump· · · · · · · 4 · · · · · 4 ·1· 1 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·10.0 · 23.0
Listen· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 24.0
Move Silently · · 4 · · · ·3· 1 ·1· 1 · · · · · · · · · ·7· · · · · · · · · · ·17.0 · 35.0
Open Lock · · · · 4 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·10 · · · ·½ 1½ ·1· ·17.0 · 35.0
Perform · · · · · · · · 6 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·10.0 · 24.0
Repair· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 23.0
Search· · · · · · 4 ·1· · · · · · · · ·6· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 · · · ·3· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· ·23.0 · 51.0
Spell Craft · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 23.0
Spot· · · · · · · 4 ·1· · · · · · · · ·2· 5 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 · · · ·3· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· ·23.0 · 42.0
Swim· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 13.0
Tumble· · · · · · 1 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 1.0 · 19.0
Use Magic Device· 4 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· · ·2· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· ·23.0 · 37.0
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Available Points· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enhancements: 80 APs, Racial 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shadar-Kai - Points spent: 1
1 Core ·(1) Grit
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Swashbuckler - Points spent: 26
1 Core ·(1) Confidence
2 Tier1 (1) Tavern Shanties
3 Tier1 (1) Tavern Shanties
4 Tier1 (1) Tavern Shanties
5 Tier1 (1) Blow By Blow: Blow By Blow (Ranged)
6 Core ·(1) Swashbuckling
7 Tier2 (2) Action Boost: Double Shot Boost
8 Tier2 (2) Action Boost: Double Shot Boost
9 Tier2 (2) Action Boost: Double Shot Boost
10 Tier3 (1) Swashbuckling Style: Arcane Marauder
11 Tier1 (1) Blow By Blow: Blow By Blow (Ranged)
12 Tier1 (1) Blow By Blow: Blow By Blow (Ranged)
13 Core ·(1) Uncanny Dodge
14 Tier2 (2) Sword Dance
15 Tier2 (2) Sword Dance
16 Tier4 (2) On the Mark
17 Tier4 (2) On the Mark
18 Tier4 (2) On the Mark
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harper Agent - Points spent: 12
1 Core ·(1) Agent of Good I
2 Tier1 (2) Harper Enchantment
3 Tier1 (2) Strategic Combat I
4 Core ·(2) Harper Training I: +1 Intelligence
5 Tier2 (1) Know the Angles
6 Tier2 (1) Know the Angles
7 Tier2 (1) Know the Angles
8 Tier3 (2) Strategic Combat II
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vistani Knife Fighter - Points spent: 21
1 Core ·(1) Knife Expertise
2 Tier1 (2) Rapid Attack
3 Tier1 (2) Mist Stalker I
4 Core ·(1) Knife Juggler
5 Tier2 (2) Vistani Knife Training II
6 Tier2 (2) Bleeding Cuts
7 Tier3 (2) Vistani Knife Training III
8 Core ·(1) Knife Specialist
9 Tier3 (2) Deadly Blades
10 Tier3 (2) Fan of Knives
11 Tier2 (1) Haste Boost
12 Tier2 (1) Haste Boost
13 Tier2 (1) Haste Boost
14 Core ·(1) One With Blades
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vile Chemist - Points spent: 21
1 Core ·(1) Poisoner
2 Tier1 (2) Deadly Poison I
3 Tier1 (1) Alchemical Accuracy
4 Tier1 (1) Alchemical Accuracy
5 Core ·(1) Poisoned Coating
6 Tier1 (1) Alchemical Accuracy
7 Tier2 (2) Deadly Poison II
8 Tier2 (1) Stone of the Subliminal
9 Core ·(1) Hidden Blades
10 Tier3 (2) Deadly Poison III
11 Tier3 (2) Ability I: +1 Intelligence
12 Tier2 (1) Poisoned Attack: Poisoned Shot
13 Tier2 (1) Poisoned Attack: Poisoned Shot
14 Tier2 (1) Poisoned Attack: Poisoned Shot
15 Tier2 (1) Venom Affinity
16 Tier2 (1) Venom Affinity
17 Core ·(1) More Hidden Blades
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Active Destiny Tree
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shiradi Champion - Points spent: 24
1 Core ·(0) Fey Favor
2 Core ·(0) Fey Visions
3 Core ·(0) Favorable Winds
4 Core ·(0) Sixth Sense
5 Core ·(0) Favorable Wind
6 Core ·(0) Fey Power
7 Tier1 (1) Stay Frosty
8 Tier1 (1) Stay Frosty
9 Tier1 (1) Wild Shots
10 Tier1 (1) Wild Shots
11 Tier2 (2) Prism
12 Tier2 (1) Pin
13 Tier2 (1) Pin
14 Tier3 (2) Rainbow
15 Tier3 (1) Otto's Whistler
16 Tier3 (1) Otto's Whistler
17 Tier3 (1) Whirling Wrists
18 Tier3 (1) Whirling Wrists
19 Tier3 (1) Whirling Wrists
20 Tier4 (2) Double Rainbow
21 Tier5 (2) Stand and Deliver
22 Tier5 (1) Nerve Venom
23 Tier5 (1) Nerve Venom
24 Tier6 (1) Audience with the Queen
25 Tier6 (1) Rain of Arrows
26 Tier6 (1) Hunt's End
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Twists of fate - 19 of 25 Fate points spent.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twist 1 - Tier 4: Fatesinger: Primal Hymn
Twist 2 - Tier 3: Unyielding Sentinel: Renewal
Twist 3 - Tier 0: Twist slot empty
Twist 4 - Tier 0: Twist slot empty

[Nimdeadlee]

What feats are you taking?

Why Rogue? Arti gets trapping but also pet for lever pulling & runearm, and you can get Evasion from Alchemist 12 (Liquid Luck).

[Raeaddil]

Sorry edited it before to add enhancements and took out the feats by mistake. Took rogue mainly cause I was just testing this build and didn't want to use a LR +1 Heart of Wood. The rogue gave me evasion for free. Enhancements are pretty tight. I'd love to have more for Vistani. I'll edit it again and add the feats.

[myliftkk_v2]

Some immediate problems:

Spring Attack - Not going to work on a thrower unless you swap to a non-thrown dagger. Also no point to taking it because Acher's Focus is where you boost your ranged power by 45.

Sense Weakness - Doesn't do much for thrower because the damage additions don't apply, and I'm not even sure the helpless addition applies on thrown weapons which regardless you'd have to win for nerve venom to proc. You're better off twisting Primal Hymn from Fatesinger and gaining 10% attack speed (essentially 10% more damage) on thrown weapons.

Not taking all the Vistani cores is a mistake. All the crit and defense power in Vistani is weighted towards Core 5 and T5. You get Vendetta, Mist Stalker, 20 Ranged Power, and 5% attack speed. MS is arguably way better than Uncanny Dodge, and can be triggered 3 times in the time UD can be done once and last 33% longer. Vistani cores cover Crit Expansion and Multiplier, Quick Draw, 10% attack speed, & 5% double strike. Plus Vistani Fortune is arguably good no matter what it triggers.

I would suggest taking Scion of Earth not Arborea. You'll want the +4 Conjuration DC on multivial, and the Acid damage can easily be ~300 per shot at 30 with Sharn + RL gear. The 20 ranged power doesn't pull ahead until you average ~1200+ per throw strike on main damage (so really only applies to when you crit).

Also Holy Strike is a waste as it doesn't scale. Take Blinding Speed for permanent 22% thrown attack speed (most 30% Speed items only give you 15% attack speed boost). You should be able to hit 91%+ standing thrown attack speed (only buffs being Ship Buffs).

My overall thought is you're giving up far too much taking Bard levels beyond 3, and not really getting much in return beyond that. Also, SB is limiting you to orb/buckler in your offhand. Better to be able to flexibly switch to larger shield for more DR (or set bonuses, though you situationally sacrifice evasion) or orb when you want to maximize casting. It would be interesting to maybe do Bard 3/Rog 1/Alc 16 and get the expanded crit threat on top of putting 41 in Vistani.

Most of the value of the VC tree is weighted towards the bottom. Thrower doesn't need to go 23pts in it to maximize the value.

Look at Fury for final ED. UF is great for mowing down bosses at the end, and adrenaline for clipping trash before that.

[Raeaddil]

I followed some of your suggestions. I've made this and got +2 supreme tomb so am committed to the bard levels and I think the swashbuckling does a lot of damage for this build and I like how the dagger and orb combo work with vile chemist as well.

Went more into vistani, you were right before I was only getting the extra crit damage from vc not the extended range, was able to get both from vistani. I would need 18 levels alchemist to get it from vc. I don't think both would stack as they are both competence bonuses. Regardless would need 18 levels of alchemist and 72 enhancement points for both which I can't do, would probably be better going pure alchemist if trying. I could lose one level of bard and still keep what I want from it but not sure what another level of alchemist would give me. I changed sense weakness twist which made alot of sense, pardon the pun. Changed feats around a bit to get rid of spring attack and quickdraw which I now get from vistani. Going to keep Shiradi for now because I've never done it and like the freezes, dancing and paralyzing you get from it. I may change it later tho once I've tried it.

I appreciate you taking the time to look at this and for your input. I think the changes I made have bettered the build.

[myliftkk_v2]

From looking SB over (I went thru it pretty closely) the SB benefits could be:

1. SB Core 2 - Expanded crit range maybe being +1 greater because it says it doubles the bonus on throwing daggers. So should be a +2 competence bonus. Assuming it works then potentially you get standing 15-20 crit range, with Vengeance pushing it to 14-20.

2. Blow by Blow - Ranged attack +3 crit threat, so standing 12-20 standing crit threat, with 11-20 having Vengeance on. No idea the cooldown though, so hard for me to judge usefulness overall.

3. SB Style (arcane maruader/dashing scoundrel) - This grants you the orb+sb usage. Or, and I wish this was a toggle, 10% dbl strike/shot. Almost worth doing the buckler if you go 1 rogue and skip out on evasion.

What do you lose not taking 16 Alc:

1. You're losing access to the 6th level Alc spells, one of which is Heal, the second is Goldskin. Giving up 580 points of DR/Adamantine (tiny SP cost) + and the ability to heal to full (about 70sp maximized). In return you get nothing useful Bard spell/song wise.

2. You're also giving up 3 x 5th lvl spell slots. Multivial is one of the most powerful spells the Alc has. It's fairly trivial to stack two elements and load 2 different multivials (in case mobs resist one) and keep a high nullification. A couple gear switches a I'll have 730 Acid Spell Power with 50% crit. That's on an aoe spell that hits 4 times. You're also having to chose between 1 multivial or greater evolution meaning your INT is four pts lower than it could be. That's -2 main dmg your missing right there because you can cast that spell.

3. Giving up -4 caster levels on all spells.

4. Giving up 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level slots. Most of which just makes all your choices constrained because you're going to want to take every buff spell, then slot in healing and offense.

5. Giving up 1 Alc bonus feat. You will want that feat to take Battalion Brew (I would take this first and Courage last) and basically free you from chasing INT to hit/dmg enhancements.

There's nothing in the Bard Tier 4 or in Bard levels 4-6 that really add to your ability to do damage or better defenses (+3 to crit conf/dmg is it, and you'll get plenty of that elsewhere). Mist Stalker will far outperform Uncanny Dodge (Basically use can use it regularly versus hardly ever with UD), plus the no level drain means you can go toe to toe with any mob that level drains without slotting any more than deathblock. If you want to smack around the Shadow Beholder in the face in R in Whelooon, go for it. There's virtually nothing it can do. You don't realize what a relief it is until you realize you never have to switch gear to deal with them to try to fix neg levels.

As for twists (mine are 4/3/1/1)

Tier 3

Shadow Dancer: Grim Precision or LD: Critical DMG (depending on whether or need the additional fort pierce for R).


Tier 1 LD: Extra Action Boost (8 vs 5) or Grandmaster: Dance of Flowers (+1.0[W] is a lot of dmg to give up)


----

I played Shiradi for a while, and it's perfectly fine until you hit R and packs of mobs or a boss you don't want to take forever to chew through (most of your Shiradi procs are ~300/proc). Your best dmg in Shiradi is going to be Hunt's End and the cooldown is just too long. In R it's definitely too slow of an ED to run in unless you're getting faced with exactly 1 mob at a time. Pin/Whistler are less useful because you have to use the VKF strikes to get the benefit out of them. There's a lot to remember to maximize damage between VKF and VC alone before adding in Bard

UF + 7 Adrenalines means in 30 sec, you can do the equivalent of 13 Hunt's Ends in 30s. With crits on Elite being 20-40k per shot (broken out across 3-4 strikes) using RL+Sharn gear and no raid gear/Reaper/minimal filigree this just . You'll end up putting most of your Fury points into CON, which improves your survivablity and you fort save.

-----

As I mentioned, 3 Bard/1 Rog would be interesting. In fact, most of Alc seems is declining rewards after 16 (playing an 18alc now) unless you specifically go 20, assuming a thrower build.

[myliftkk_v2]

Will be curious to know what your situational dbl strike/shot is with your build at 30. I've pushed it to 89%/281%, but I think there's more room to grow.

[Bjond]

Slight necro, but this post kept turning up in some searches I was doing. So, figured it was worth adding some notes.


You get Vendetta, Mist Stalker, 20 Ranged Power, and 5% attack speed. [..] 10% attack speed, & 5% double strike. Plus Vistani Fortune is arguably good no matter what it triggers.

Blinding Speed for permanent 22% thrown attack speed

I used to stack attack rate bonuses until I learned about the 86/m rate cap. Blinding Speed actually does absolutely nothing as do all the other ranged attack speed bonuses. Literally no effect at all because thrown rate of attack caps at 86/m.

Whirling + 30 Bab = 86/m. Whirling + 15 BAB = 82~84/m. Toss in your classic 30/15 run/alacrity item and you're essentially rate-capped from L20 on up.

However, there's little point in running a thrower before L29. Inquisitive is phenomenally better sub29. Include Artificer in your class mix for RA & Rapid Reload and you've got a build that only needs a free feat respec (IC.Ranged -> IC.Thrown) to swap from INQ to Throw at L29. It uses nearly all the same gear, too, except for weapon.


Look at Fury for final ED.

I can do a little better (maybe DPS+10%) with T5 Vistani FotW than Shiradi + T5 DWS, but oh my, does it hammer my keyboard. T5 Vistani is absurdly busy with the 2x10s + 1x60s mashing. All three of those should have been passives. It just forces you to watch the UI instead of the action -- immersion breakers. They're contrary to PnP spirit, too (any short duration buff that can be maintained indefinitely becomes a passive via "hey dm, my char keeps it up all the time").

If extra mashing is OK with you, go for it. It does perform a little better.


1. SB Core 2 - [..] standing 15-20 crit range, with Vengeance pushing it to 14-20.

Yes. Pretty much any swashbuckled weapon becomes 15/x3.


Blow by Blow - Ranged attack +3 crit threat

The hate reduction never has any effect and the damage isn't noticeably nicer than an auto-attack. I punted this one due to "already busy enough" and "not good enough to waste a primary button or bother mashing". It's one of those things that falls under "tap it when bored" on builds without other things to put on the bar.

IMHO, it could be made nice enough to use by having it trigger an Incite-75 12s debuff on damage or replacing threat range +3 with multiplier +2. I'd prefer multiplier, of course, since Ranger/DWS over Bard/Swash would become a matter of taste rather than mandatory.


Shiradi for a while, and it's perfectly fine until you hit R and packs of mobs or a boss

Shiradi's extra ranged power and DEX nearly balance out FotW's adrenaline. I've one-shot R10 reapers with Shiradi, though usually it's only about 90%. I can't do that with FotW. Fury does more when you can setup for a stand and burn.

It's too bad Shadowdancer Executioner's doesn't work on Reapers or offer enough bonus damage for a crit to competitive with Adrenaline or Hunts End. That would elevate SD into the running.


Will be curious to know what your situational dbl strike/shot is with your build at 30. I've pushed it to 89%/281%, but I think there's more room to grow.

My thrower's standing DS is 211. Situationals add 30 (reaper) 20 (vistani) 20 (killer) 10 (coins) 100 (MoM) for 391. Realistically it's 231~251 while clearing trash and 331/361 elite/reaper boss burst. Killer rarely applies during a boss and VKF:5 is useless 50% of the time.

BTW, I tried alchemist as a base. If you can tolerate the buggy (or quirky if you like it) physics of potion lobbing, it's easily the best base class for it. After seeing one too many heal pot get "intercepted" by DPS randomly jumping around in front of the tank and failing to be able to break a pot on my own character and missing my own heals, I finally punted the idea of using Alchemist for a thrower.