Divine Might NERF

[Zites]

Why do you nerf the pureclass to stop the multiclass from becoming OP?
Your reason:
THF changes was that the existing Divine Might would become nearly mandatory on THF builds, including Barbarians/Fighters/etc, since the bonus to Strength would be amplified considerably further than it used to. This could be fixed easily by putting increases to Divine Might Strength bonuses out of the reach of multi-classes simple.


A large part of the problem is that your underestimating the nerf and overestimating the buffs.

Now take that +20 Insightful Strength and realize that your getting a 50% bonus on it's effect, so instead of +10 it's actually +15. That +30 gives a +22 effect instead of +15. The higher the stats grow the larger the nerf is, and at cap it's not a small nerf. All the +damage from the KoTC tree is being wiped out due to the Divine Might nerf, and yes it's a nerf. I've mentioned before that it should give +3/4 instead of +1/2, possibly being favored weapon exclusive or something.

There are many examples of the totality of this Divine Might NERF:
Was just thinking the same thing, that DM is a nerf with the new changes to THF feats.

Example:
Str: 80 (+35)
Cha: 50 (+20)

Currently DM would get you a 100 STR, so with the new GTHF you would have +135 to damage, +45 to Hit

New DM would keep it at 80 STR, so with the new GTHF you would get +105 (Str), +10 DM, so +115 to Damage, +45 to Hit.

You could slot Insight Str (+10) I suppose for +15 more damage which would put you pretty close but then that is another gear slot you have to find. This new damage and to hit from DM will not stack with Insightful Deadly, Insightful Accuracy or Insightful Combat Tactics, since they are now clarified as Insightful boni.

I guess my question would be, is the tactical inclusion worth the gear/stat shuffle and the difference in damage?
Its also a nerf to niche builds like Strength Domain that used the actual Strength attribute for things besides damage and tactical DCs.

Closing Thoughts

Wow, I am now quite concerned that these efforts to give both THF and KOTC some love are going to move THF Paladins from simply weak to DOA.

Agree. I hope the devs will listen and do their own testing to see this so that it can be changed. The last time they did a pally pass all it did was change things up, the net result was no stronger than before. Looks like something similar is happening here this time.

[droid327]

What's this have to do with multi vs pure? The issue is THF will get triple value from str, that's any build that takes THF. Their argument is legit - having something that could boost your str for triple effect would make every other approach obsolete. They don't want to create a one-build-to-rule-them-all situation, like when arti-fighter was de facto required for tanks.

Just to clarify - it's not a nerf to current Live values, it's a nerf to the best-case (OP) scenario where you get new triple bonus AND old STR bonus.

[Zites]

What's this have to do with multi vs pure? The issue is THF will get triple value from str, that's any build that takes THF. Their argument is legit - having something that could boost your str for triple effect would make every other approach obsolete. They don't want to create a one-build-to-rule-them-all situation, like when arti-fighter was de facto required for tanks.

This could be fixed easily by putting increases to Divine Might Strength bonuses out of the reach of multi-classes simple.

[droid327]

What's this have to do with multi vs pure?

Repeat for emphasis

It's not nothing to do with pure. Even a pure pal with triple thf and old dm would be OP, the problem is with thf+str not class balance

[Zeleron]

How can it be a nerf, if you never had the 3x modifier until after the change.

[SpartanKiller13]

Why do you nerf the pureclass to stop the multiclass from becoming OP?
Your reason: This could be fixed easily by putting increases to Divine Might Strength bonuses out of the reach of multi-classes simple.

A large part of the problem is that your underestimating the nerf and overestimating the buffs.

There are many examples of the totality of this Divine Might NERF:


Was just thinking the same thing, that DM is a nerf with the new changes to THF feats.

Example:
Str: 80 (+35)
Cha: 50 (+20)

Currently DM would get you a 100 STR, so with the new GTHF you would have +135 to damage, +45 to Hit

New DM would keep it at 80 STR, so with the new GTHF you would get +105 (Str), +10 DM, so +115 to Damage, +45 to Hit.

You could slot Insight Str (+10) I suppose for +15 more damage which would put you pretty close but then that is another gear slot you have to find. This new damage and to hit from DM will not stack with Insightful Deadly, Insightful Accuracy or Insightful Combat Tactics, since they are now clarified as Insightful boni.

I guess my question would be, is the tactical inclusion worth the gear/stat shuffle and the difference in damage?

Closing Thoughts

Example:
Str: 80 (+35)
Cha: 50 (+20)

Current DM would get you 100 STR, so with the current GTHF you would have +67 to damage, and +45 to Hit

New DM would keep it at 80 STR, so with the new GTHF you would get +105 (Str), +10 DM, so +115 to Damage, and +45 to Hit.

...Huh. Definitely looks like an overall buff, even if DM is getting hit.

Using only base numbers (and stats listed above), currently DM gives 28.6% more base damage, which is pretty crazy - and as they said would be a requirement. New DM using those stats would only be a 9.5% base damage, which is still pretty solid but not quite as game-breaking.

That said, if you throw on a Sharn +10 Ins Str item - New DM would leave you at 90 STR, so with the new GTHF you would get +120 (Str), +10 DM, so +130 to Damage, and +45 to Hit. And now DM is only giving an 8.3% base damage buff. It's also only 3.7% short of old DM + new THF, which seems pretty minor to me, especially factoring the 73.3% gain from new THF.

TL;DR: new DM + Insightful Str item is only slightly worse than old DM (3.7% in the above case). However, you're not basically forced into DM as a Str-based melee anymore.

[Komradkillingmachine]

Example:
Str: 80 (+35)
Cha: 50 (+20)

Current DM would get you 100 STR, so with the current GTHF you would have +67 to damage, and +45 to Hit

New DM would keep it at 80 STR, so with the new GTHF you would get +105 (Str), +10 DM, so +115 to Damage, and +45 to Hit.

...Huh. Definitely looks like an overall buff, even if DM is getting hit.

Using only base numbers (and stats listed above), currently DM gives 28.6% more base damage, which is pretty crazy - and as they said would be a requirement. New DM using those stats would only be a 9.5% base damage, which is still pretty solid but not quite as game-breaking.

That said, if you throw on a Sharn +10 Ins Str item - New DM would leave you at 90 STR, so with the new GTHF you would get +120 (Str), +10 DM, so +130 to Damage, and +45 to Hit. And now DM is only giving an 8.3% base damage buff. It's also only 3.7% short of old DM + new THF, which seems pretty minor to me, especially factoring the 73.3% gain from new THF.

TL;DR: new DM + Insightful Str item is only slightly worse than old DM (3.7% in the above case). However, you're not basically forced into DM as a Str-based melee anymore.

Recalculate current damage with Insightful Deadly +8, Insightful accuracy +17, and Insightful Stunning +8 - non of these will stack with new DM, fyi. Also, not forced into slotting Insightful Strength +10 (making gear tetris slightly less annoying).

[Sam-u-r-eye]

How can it be a nerf, if you never had the 3x modifier until after the change.

DDO forum logic is how.

<3

[Zites]

Repeat for emphasis It's not nothing to do with pure.

I'm going to give you a little help here My OP is a response to this statement. Hope this clarification helps thanks.

THF changes was that the existing Divine Might would become nearly mandatory on THF builds, including Barbarians/Fighters/etc, since the bonus to Strength would be amplified considerably further than it used to.



Even a pure pal with triple thf and old dm would be OP, the problem is with thf+str not class balanceThis is incorrect, where would pure pal with triple thf and old dm be when compared with the meta top 5? top 10? top20?Maybe top 20, maybe!

[Zeleron]

Recalculate current damage with Insightful Deadly +8, Insightful accuracy +17, and Insightful Stunning +8 - non of these will stack with new DM, fyi. Also, not forced into slotting Insightful Strength +10 (making gear tetris slightly less annoying).

Well now you dont need to slot insightful deadly/insightful accuracy...

[Kilgrave]

Why do you nerf the pureclass to stop the multiclass from becoming OP?
Your reason: This could be fixed easily by putting increases to Divine Might Strength bonuses out of the reach of multi-classes simple.


A large part of the problem is that your underestimating the nerf and overestimating the buffs.


There are many examples of the totality of this Divine Might NERF:

Closing Thoughts

if they could make it +1 sacred strength for every 10 pally levels would be cool?

[droid327]

This is incorrect, where would pure pal with triple thf and old dm be when compared with the meta top 5? top 10? top20?Maybe top 20, maybe!

"Including Barb/Fig" doesn't mean "only barb/fig"

The problem was current DM + new THF would be OP. Not just that it'd be OP for splashes, but would be OP for every single STR THF build, *even* just as a splash.

Why would you play a Wis or Cha pal if STR offered literally 3x the bonus? They want all three stats to be equally served by trances.

[Zites]

"Including Barb/Fig" doesn't mean "only barb/fig"
NEVER SAID IT DID



The problem was current DM + new THF would be OP. Not just that it'd be OP for splashes, but would be OP for every single STR THF build, *even* just as a splash.
AS FAR AS SPLASHES GO (This could be fixed easily by putting increases to Divine Might Strength bonuses out of the reach of multi-classes simple).

WHEN IT COMES TO OP for every single STR THF build AND SUCH MATTERS ONLY PURE PALS WOULD HAVE IT AND>(where would pure pal with triple thf and old dm be when compared with the meta?)NO WHERE NEAR OP.


Why would you play a Wis or Cha pal if STR offered literally 3x the bonus? They want all three stats to be equally served by trances.NO THEY DON'T

[J-mann]

NEVER SAID IT DID



AS FAR AS SPLASHES GO (This could be fixed easily by putting increases to Divine Might Strength bonuses out of the reach of multi-classes simple).

WHEN IT COMES TO OP for every single STR THF build AND SUCH MATTERS ONLY PURE PALS WOULD HAVE IT AND>(where would pure pal with triple thf and old dm be when compared with the meta?)NO WHERE NEAR OP.

NO THEY DON'T

Honestly not sure why you are raging so hard. It is a really minor nerf and only if you take it in a vaccuum from all the other changes. As long as Lynn fixes the stacking issues that were pointed out pallies are getting a pretty decent buff, is it enough of one, I'm not sure it is but we will see. As for divine might the biggest part of the change to me is the lower tohit this change will cause as to hit is still an issue in top end content.

[Zites]

Honestly not sure why you are raging so hard. It is a really minor nerf and only if you take it in a vaccuum from all the other changes. As long as Lynn fixes the stacking issues that were pointed out pallies are getting a pretty decent buff, is it enough of one, I'm not sure it is but we will see. As for divine might the biggest part of the change to me is the lower tohit this change will cause as to hit is still an issue in top end content.

It's a game of +1s and they add up to the big picture, I don't agree with the position of Paladin in the meta it's going from full gimp to a little gimp from old warpriest to a tiny bit better dps than new WP with out the heals.

TO HIT IS STILL A MAJOR PROBLEM I AGREE.

[droid327]

LOUD NOISES

Also Cleric and FvS have DM too, you know.

Also also, fixing something underperforming by making something else overperform is not a good way to achieve balance - thats how we get things like Nightforge Spike that end up becoming a problem later on when the underpowered things are fixed.

If Paladin needs help, then fix Paladin overall. Dont just give them a single super-win-button with an OP DM.

Plus, even ignoring all the above, and just focusing on pure Pals - you'd be essentially forcing all Paladins to be STR based THF just because it was so immensely more powerful than any other build. It wouldnt make sense to run, say, a WIS TWF build, even though you now have an option for a WIS trance, just because STR with DM gave you 3x as much benefit. That kind of imbalance and meta-channelizing is what devs want to avoid.

[HungarianRhapsody]

What's this have to do with multi vs pure? The issue is THF will get triple value from str, that's any build that takes THF. Their argument is legit - having something that could boost your str for triple effect would make every other approach obsolete. They don't want to create a one-build-to-rule-them-all situation, like when arti-fighter was de facto required for tanks.

Just to clarify - it's not a nerf to current Live values, it's a nerf to the best-case (OP) scenario where you get new triple bonus AND old STR bonus.
It’s a significant nerf to TWF and SWF compared to live. The To Hit loss alone is a big deal.

[FuzzyDuck81]

You know, I don't think anyone's mentioned the most important problem with DM no longer buffing strength - jump & swim. Clerics can't jump as it is, DM at least helped with that! AND WHAT IF I FALL IN THE WATER/LAVA??!!