The problem with Magister ED

[capsela]

+5 DCs to magister in latest ED upgrade, but all new content is being designed around those +5 DCs!!!

All the devs have done is make it so you must be in magister if you want your spells to ever land. Before the +5 DCs I could be in any ED and be an effective DC caster.

Now I have no choice I must be in Magister or I might as well be in nothing at all.

So in effect the buff that was done to Magister was actually a nerf because all the DCs were raised along with it.

[Steelstar]

So in effect the buff that was done to Magister was actually a nerf because all the DCs were raised along with it.

To clarify: We have not raised monster saving throws (or changed anything else that would be impacted in this way) alongside or in response to Magister changes.

[capsela]

To clarify: We have not raised monster saving throws (or changed anything else that would be impacted in this way) alongside or in response to Magister changes.

Well, it seemed like that to me. I stand corrected. Apologies and thanks for the quick response.

[mr420247]

Also add in the fact that Wizies are like 8 dcs over all other casters and ya along with legendary levels

Other casters might be sol when they raise the bar again since most spells still being hard capped back in cap 20 days

And we'll be going to 35 arg and if those levels dont do anything for max caster levels ya i see problems coming

[Inanout]

Who do I believe?

It is sad the player knows more about the game then the developer.

[ChadB123]

Who do I believe?

It is sad the player knows more about the game then the developer.

Monster saves were not buffed outside of reaper. They were inside of reaper, but magister is still a net gain.

[Zretch]

Monster saves were not buffed outside of reaper. They were inside of reaper, but magister is still a net gain.

Wow, that misses the point of the OP completely. Yes, Magister is still a net gain, but every other ED is a net loss. That was the point. And Sharn may not have intentionally been balanced with ED changes in mind, but Sharn most certainly did see pretty significant fortitude save increases for many mob types, especially in the earlier quests in the saga. Necro DCs that were fine in RL were not in A Sharn Welcome or Red Rain. That's also what may be triggering the original post.

[ChadB123]

Wow, that misses the point of the OP completely. Yes, Magister is still a net gain, but every other ED is a net loss. That was the point. And Sharn may not have intentionally been balanced with ED changes in mind, but Sharn most certainly did see pretty significant fortitude save increases for many mob types, especially in the earlier quests in the saga. Necro DCs that were fine in RL were not in A Sharn Welcome or Red Rain. That's also what may be triggering the original post.

I did misread the OP, which is my bad.

However, although fort saves are high in Sharn, other saves aren't to compensate.

[TheMaxpower]

I also have a DC caster. Everything said in the original post is 100% accurate based on my experience and in my opinion. :)

[Steelstar]

Necro DCs that were fine in RL were not in A Sharn Welcome or Red Rain. That's also what may be triggering the original post.

Sharn is intentionally more difficult content than Ravenloft, not just in DCs - Across the board.

[Thrudh]

Wow, that misses the point of the OP completely. Yes, Magister is still a net gain, but every other ED is a net loss. That was the point. And Sharn may not have intentionally been balanced with ED changes in mind, but Sharn most certainly did see pretty significant fortitude save increases for many mob types, especially in the earlier quests in the saga. Necro DCs that were fine in RL were not in A Sharn Welcome or Red Rain. That's also what may be triggering the original post.

After you get the better Sharn gear (and the sentient sets from Artifacts), your Necro DCs increased and were good enough again. And enchant DCs were good enough even with RL gear. This was a more martial pack with mobs that had high fort saves.

My wizard did just fine in Sharn once I got all the gear, and that was BEFORE the magister changes.

[Thrudh]

Who do I believe?

It is sad the player knows more about the game then the developer.

The player doesn't know more in this case. It's sad that you think they do.

[Thrudh]

Sharn is intentionally more difficult content than Ravenloft, not just in DCs - Across the board.

Exactly. Did you guys really think you'd walk into the latest end-game pack, and it would be as easy as the last end-game pack?

Gianthold and Amrath were also packs where the mobs had high fort saves, and for good reasons. Some players complained, the good players adjusted.

[SpartanKiller13]

Necro DCs that were fine in RL were not in A Sharn Welcome or Red Rain. That's also what may be triggering the original post.

Are your Necro DC's still fine in RL though?


My wizard did just fine in Sharn once I got all the gear, and that was BEFORE the magister changes.

Sharn gear + filigree did more for me than Magister did. If I was planning on a bunch of RL runs etc I'd probably swap out of Magister for more DPS lol.

[HuneyMunster]

To clarify: We have not raised monster saving throws (or changed anything else that would be impacted in this way) alongside or in response to Magister changes.

Though Exalted Angel and Draconic Incarnation were impacted indirectly through Reaper difficulty.

Update 42 Patch 4 "Creatures in Reaper will have an additional +4 to their Saving Throws versus Spells."

After the destiny changes and in Reaper mode Magister gained +1 to all spells and an additional +3 to the school they focused in. Draconic Incarnation got a -1 DC Evocation and Conjuration and -4 to all other schools. Exalted Angel got a -4 penalty to all spell DC's in Reaper.

[Chai]

Exactly. Did you guys really think you'd walk into the latest end-game pack, and it would be as easy as the last end-game pack?

Gianthold and Amrath were also packs where the mobs had high fort saves, and for good reasons. Some players complained, the good players adjusted.

That highlights a specific but different issue. Content the same level is made intentionally more difficult due to the specific need to constantly creep the character power past the previous ceiling.

Now the grind is not only longer, but it has a specific order of operations.

[AlmGhandi]

There was me thinking that the problem with the Magister is that the area affect deathward etc do not work.

[SirValentine]

Monster saves were not buffed outside of reaper. They were inside of reaper, but magister is still a net gain.

A net gain either way, but relatively more of a net gain for Int/Cha casters than Wis casters, though.

[Whaldorf]

After you get the better Sharn gear (and the sentient sets from Artifacts), your Necro DCs increased and were good enough again. And enchant DCs were good enough even with RL gear. This was a more martial pack with mobs that had high fort saves.

My wizard did just fine in Sharn once I got all the gear, and that was BEFORE the magister changes.

I am 100% sure capsela has the relevant sharn gear and maxed out DCs. Am sure the OP came from the fact that DCs in sharn are much higher than other content - which is fine I guess. Just means you need to prepare for it, especially if running in reaper!!!

[Thrudh]

I am 100% sure capsela has the relevant sharn gear and maxed out DCs.

I'm 100% sure he didn't. Because he wouldn't be complaining if he did.

Again, the Magister changes were made a good time AFTER Sharn came out... After I got all my Sharn gear, and my Artifact built out, and I was still running in Exalted Angel, I did just fine in Sharn.

After the Magister changes, it's even easier.

Maybe the next pack will take Magister changes into account (I hope not), but Sharn was not built with Magister changes in mind... The Magister changes happened AFTER Sharn.

[Whaldorf]

- SNIP -

ok - glad you are so certain of your reality.

[capsela]

Today I did some testing in other EDs in sharn quests and consistently failed my DCs in every ED except Magister.

[Carrow12]

I ran an intel wiz in Magister- had very little problem in Sharn mid to high reaper. Now I'm running a wis fvs in exalted angel - I'm still consistently 4-5 dc behind where I was as a wiz. Magister was a buff. The rest of the spell casting destinies didn't get it.

[FlavoredSoul]

The player doesn't know more in this case. It's sad that you think they do.

The Player actually knows more in this case, Maybe actually learn something about the game before you just make up stuff?


Creatures in Reaper will have an additional +4 to their Saving Throws versus Spells. U42 Patch 4 release notes

Shorty after the release of Sharn all mobs got a +4 saving throws vs spells, and then magister got +5DC net result: magister is 1 dc ahead and everything else is 4 behind.

inb4 "but it's only in reaper", reaper is the only thing that matters, putting in a massive amount of powercreep via reaper trees (in many cases 1 reaper point is worth slightly more than a heroic past life) ensured that reaper will be the only difficulty played by anyone who's not brand new, reaper balance is effectively game wide balance.

[janave]

Today I did some testing in other EDs in sharn quests and consistently failed my DCs in every ED except Magister.

This has been my experience as well, with the exception of energy burst, and dragon breath ( is scheduled a cooldown nerf next patch).

[noinfo]

This has been my experience as well, with the exception of energy burst, and dragon breath ( is scheduled a cooldown nerf next patch).

Sorcs there with evasion mobs pretty much its either polar ray or eburst and breath to be able to land.

Though the biggest losers from the lot were wisdom based casters that can't access the magister tree with wis stat bonuses.

EA being the dominant casting option was just silly but its sort of gone to far the other way.

I would like to have seen EA get specific selectors to bring up 1 or 2 casting areas up. This would tie in with cleric domains.

Something like Core 4 gives +2 dc to 1 area
Core 5 gives +2-3 dcs to an area (not the same)
Last core still giving 3 to all. Puts it below Magister over all by 2

Top dc would still be 1-2 below Magisters primary but with utility from the EA tree
Secondary area would be equal to Magisters general casting ability
Tertiary would be still 2 less.

[Kaboom2112]

My wizard did just fine in Sharn once I got all the gear, and that was BEFORE the magister changes.

As a wizard I'm fine in Sharn.

As a sorc? LOLz

How are the FvS and Clerics doing?

[pjw]

To clarify: We have not raised monster saving throws (or changed anything else that would be impacted in this way) alongside or in response to Magister changes.

That's not true: I assume the OP is talking about reaper. At the time of the change (some dev) said the DC increase per skull, and the base DC were all changing. IIRC, the net result that combined with Magister it was a slight boost overall to player DCs, especially at low skulls, but not in higher skulls. And if you weren't in Magister, then is was a big loss.

Are you saying that those changes to per-skull DC not go through?

[Iriale]

But the problem is not the magister ED. The problem is that Sharn and Soul splitter have too high saves. It also happens with borderlands; the STs of their mobs are much higher than the rest of the level 21 content. It is a problem of design of the new content, not of ED. Weapon users also have problems in Sharn because the mobs fortification is insanely high. It is a content thought for maximized characters with many past lives and reaper points, and for the rest of the toons to wait for the powercreep to leave the content more accessible to them.

That said, I note that although my wizard in magister with maximized DC (racial heroic & complecionist, best gear, reaper tree maxed etc) has few problems in Sharn, there are still mobs that save quite often in high reaper, like the goblins in Ruined schemes or several type of mobs in Just bussines, and if such a character has fails, imagine the rest of classes or less developed alts. Seriously, they are the quests they have too high STs, the problem is not in the ED, but in the design of the quests, which are thought to be hard until the powercreep softens them. And from what Steelstar has said, this design is intentional, so I would say we will not see changes.

If my opinion matters in something, I think it is a wrong design concept. Designing around the top ten of the population instead of the middle toon is a mistake. Currently in DDO there is an abyss of power between fully developed characters and the middle toon, and designing around 1% of the population only generates frustrations.

[Iriale]

To clarify: We have not raised monster saving throws (or changed anything else that would be impacted in this way) alongside or in response to Magister changes.
You added a + 4 to the STs of the mobs in reaper. This rise has been little noticed by the most developed characters (with many past lives, the best gear and enough reaper points to pick all the increases in DC), but the middle toon does suffer in the new content, which has significantly higher STs .

It's not just Sharn, Steel. It is soul splitter and borderlands too. Sharn is simply more popular. Sharn is frequently played to get equipment and in high reaper for rpx, and for the sagas and ETR. The soul splitter lfms are much rarer, hence there are fewer complaints about this pack. And borderlands is a leveling pack, which at the moment is popular, so weak characters have no grouping problems and find help in stronger characters, but still I have seen a couple of threads in this forum complaining about the salvations here.

Did you really think that raising the STs in reaper and also designing the new content with higher stats was not going to give problems to the middle toon? Not all characters are maximized, Steel. You have to stop designing for 1% of the population. You cannot design around that 1% when the current power difference is abysmal, really abysmal.

[Bloodskittle]

I've been playing a sorc in Draconic for a couple months now. It is definitely a fair amount of work to get your DCs up, more than it is for wizards.
However, if you do the work the spells you've built around should land fine. The whole point of specialized spell schools is that you have to build around them yet everyone wants their 90 enchant mass hold to land on everything...
It's not too hard to get 115+ on your DCs which lands a pretty good amount of the time, you just need to build for it, and magister isn't required.

The biggest issue I see is people thinking they can play the same way they do on r1 at r10...