Nerf Distraction ?

[MistaMagic]

How many years ago was it that we got the Producers Letter in January?. Do you not think that it is strange that with all the fuss over the Nerfs in U45 SSG should put out the Producers Letter now?.

Oh wait lets put out the letter now and make sure that it is a bit Vague so that while everyone is arguing about it we can quietly get the U45 plans implemented without to much fuss

[Aelonwy]

I don't think so... if only because Cordovan had been dropping hints on twitch that work was being done on the Producer's Letter at least since he came back from the Christmas break.

But it might well prove a distraction from the nerfs if only because the reactions to "pushing past level 30" are definitely not enthusiastic nor receiving a majority approval - quite the opposite it seems.

[Steelstar]

How many years ago was it that we got the Producers Letter in January?

Two! We put one out in January 2018.

We usually try to get it out in January, but the Producer's Letter requires multiple sign-offs before it can be published in a process that takes weeks at a minimum (like this year!), and can take months sometimes (as was the case last year).

[CeltEireson]

I don't think so... if only because Cordovan had been dropping hints on twitch that work was being done on the Producer's Letter at least since he came back from the Christmas break.

But it might well prove a distraction from the nerfs if only because the reactions to "pushing past level 30" are definitely not enthusiastic nor receiving a majority approval - quite the opposite it seems.

The reactions on the forums aren't necessarily a guide - its human nature that people are more likely to complain about something they don't like than comment on something they're okay with.

Not too sure about it myself - between heroic, racial, epic reincarnations and reaper experience I'm not sure we need anything more in the way of grind. Now if they mean some new abilities to earn at level cap rather than a straight level increase that might be better.

As with everything it depends on how they implement it.

[Natashaelle]

How many years ago was it that we got the Producers Letter in January?. Do you not think that it is strange that with all the fuss over the Nerfs in U45 SSG should put out the Producers Letter now?.

Oh wait lets put out the letter now and make sure that it is a bit Vague so that while everyone is arguing about it we can quietly get the U45 plans implemented without to much fuss

MWUAHAHAHAHAHA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAAA !!!

We are right now carefully dissecting your own personal gaming style preferences to ensure maximum nerfage for you personally in U46.

[Ashlayna]

MWUAHAHAHAHAHA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAAA !!!

We are right now carefully dissecting your own personal gaming style preferences to ensure maximum nerfage for you personally in U46.

Nooooooooo. But you're probably right. They're going to be so confused when they check out the toons on my account though, so good luck with that SSG, mwahahahahahaha.

[fatherpirate]

I like to think of this game as a bus.

I can get on when ever I like.

I can get off when I like.

I personally prefer to let the Developers be in charge
of driving the bus. My opinion on how the bus should
be driven is not relevant because I am not the driver.

I will suggest destinations to the driver from time to time.

I only have one real problem riding the bus.

That is all the other people in the bus.

[OmgItsMoving]

https://i.imgur.com/Aeuo6jm.jpg

[LurkingVeteran]

To be fair, he probably didn't see much in the back anyway.

Besides, that image is completely unrealistic.

When was anybody ever complained that DDO development is going "too fast"? :D

[AlmGhandi]

When was anybody ever complained that DDO development is going "too fast"? :D

Well....
Back when Guilds, guild buffs and ships were changed.... the Devs said that the legacy buffs would disappear one day.... that it was planned and was going to happen.
That was a few years ago.

Now it looks like it might happen with U45... people are complaining (check the forums).
Is DDO being developed too fast?

[Aelonwy]

I still don't think it was an intentionally timed distraction but the level cap increase seems to have become more of a concern than IPS changes or anything else for that matter.

[DRoark]

I still don't think it was an intentionally timed distraction but the level cap increase seems to have become more of a concern than IPS changes or anything else for that matter.


They don't dare reply to the IPS nerf, since there's no actual reason for it. Only the INQ tree needed tweaking. They don't have a bike big enough to backpedal on.

It's like the divine might change. Kills domain clerics and FvS STR battle builds. Your choice? Change builds, or learn to Trip, because you KNOW healers love Trip builds. SMH.

Maybe the DEV-Who-Should-Not-Be-Named will teach me how to "tactically" pull a STR lever.

[Steelstar]

They don't dare reply to the IPS nerf, since there's no actual reason for it. Only the INQ tree needed tweaking. They don't have a bike big enough to backpedal on.


We've replied about the context behind the IPS change a number of times already (see my sig for one example) , and you'll be seeing further changes accompanying the IPS change in next week's Lamannia.

[airbornerangers]

To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.



because everyone knows the one heavy/light repeater artificer on every world was wayyyyyyyyy overperforming with ips

[Ashlayna]

We've replied about the context behind the IPS change a number of times already (see my sig for one example) , and you'll be seeing further changes accompanying the IPS change in next week's Lamannia.

Except that the situation in your signature is a "you must be this tall to ride this ride" situation? I've been playing ranged since ranged wasn't cool. I played AA when everyone insisted that you must always maintain a melee option, because you're contribution to the party was going to be too low if you didn't. But let's address some of these claims more directly:

"Easy Access to AoE": Initially, that was assumed to be how easy it was to get, which was countered with how easy it is to use. It isn't easy to get, even Rangers, that get it for free, don't get it until level 11. Cleave is available at 3, if the conditions are met. If I'm going melee, which I have, I'm meeting those conditions, unless I'm not using a strength build, in which case, the Cleave line won't be on my radar. Regardless, it was stated "easy to use", which is partially true, it's a set it and forget it toggle. Other than that, making good use of it is not easy. It requires effort to use effectively, contrary to the misconception apparent in this claim, mobs do not automatically line up in a conga line for ranged toons to be able to pick a mob at the back, and roflstomp everything in that line. Have you tried to use tab targeting for this?

Aside from this, there's mob heights, terrain, character height and positioning to take into consideration. In a group of 5 spiders that, for the sake of argument, do line up in the conga line, targeting the one in the back will miss the first 2 or maybe even 3, depending on mob spacing, and character race. This is easily duplicatable, just take a half orc and a halfling archer into your testing server, and line 'em up. As an aside to this, I see it as something that is WAI. Arrows/bolts should fly over the head of mobs that are too short to be in that direct line of fire. So it's not "it affects all mobs directly in front of you", contrary to what your stated position would lead one to believe, there are other factors that you are leaving out. The other issue with this is "but if I kite them down a hall", where kiting, which is defined in DDO as "running backwards to the dungeon entrance", isn't done properly. I have never, and will never, use this method of "kiting". Perhaps it's the fact that I'm really "Old School" as far as this is concerned? In Old School, ranged is an effective way to pull mobs to the party. A tactic which is out the window in "I have to zerg this quest in x", where x is an arbitrarily short amount of time. So you're building the game for one playstyle, zerg.

That can be evidenced by Lynnabel's statement that these nerfs are aimed at endgame. Here's the problem with that; most ranged builds will have Precise Shot by level 4. That is not endgame. So your solution to your misconception regarding "ease of access to AoE" is to nerf the entire ranged playstyle, for the entire game. We came into this update knowing that Inquisitive was going to changed. What we didn't expect was a scorched earth policy on ranged combat due to that. "But we're going to do x, y or z" is irrelevant. None of these changes were required in the first place. IF Joe Newbie could roll a first life ranger, playing for the first time, and dominate content as an AA, you might have a point, but they can't. By your own admission, bows in the current meta are underperforming vs everyone, barring "you must be this tall to ride this ride" builds with all the bells and whistles. The problem for building around, and nerfing for that scenario is that not everyone is tall enough to ride that ride, and the clear message from an "update" like this is "we don't care", or "git gud"?

If endgame is the problem, focus on endgame, don't nerf an entire playstyle, for the entirety of the time a player will be running it. If an Enhancement tree is overperforming, which is what we're saying about Inquisitive, fix it. It doesn't require "fixing" feats that have been in the game forever, it simply requires finding what is causing the OP'ness, and correcting it. It's not PS or IPS, it's synergies within the tree that need adjusting. It's "easy access" to things that shouldn't have been allowed to go live in the first place, all within the tree in question. All this pass has shown me is that you're more concerned with getting the "next big thing" out to the public. The misconceptions about how the game is played inherent in your signature make this plain. We do have a percentage of the population that do play this way, but that percentage isn't 100%.

[droid327]

We've replied about the context behind the IPS change a number of times already (see my sig for one example) , and you'll be seeing further changes accompanying the IPS change in next week's Lamannia.

Except you havent actually ever said what the reason IS for the nerf. You've just said its NOT because of Inqui. And its something to do with balance. Well...what IS it? Whats wrong with IPS that after 10 years its suddenly no longer acceptable anymore?

[AbyssalMage]

So once again we have the developers ignoring the player base about IPS. They are using their own "internal database" over the hundreds of hours players put into the game. Maybe its time to do what the other side does and fill the threads with nerf everything threads until nothing is playable.

IPS already had me on the edge. The level cap is most likely the final shove I needed.

[bracelet]

We've replied about the context behind the IPS change a number of times already (see my sig for one example) , and you'll be seeing further changes accompanying the IPS change in next week's Lamannia.

Are you going to fix it by just undoing it or are you going to fix it the way Flimsy “fixed” what he did to Amber Temple, which is to say not at all. This is our last chance to address a horrible change. What goes on Lamannia next, goes live. Do us a favor and listen this time.

[Ashlayna]

So once again we have the developers ignoring the player base about IPS. They are using their own "internal database" over the hundreds of hours players put into the game. Maybe its time to do what the other side does and fill the threads with nerf everything threads until nothing is playable.

IPS already had me on the edge. The level cap is most likely the final shove I needed.

I have a simpler solution. Due to circumstances that I cannot discuss here, I cancelled two VIP accounts about a year or so ago. I discovered that this had been alleviated while gossiping with my guild on one of "pop in to see how everyone's doing" visits, and upon verifying it, immediately re-upped this account. I had intended to hit my second account soon after, but then saw the notes on Lamannia. I bought another game instead. I had maintained two active VIP accounts, even during absences from the game, until the event transpired, and had purchased three copies of every expansion that had been released to that time. Ravenloft, I believe, is the first expansion that I have purchased 0 copies of, and looking at the direction of the game, I have no intention of buying any of them now.

Ironically, this means that a lot of the bells and whistles they want to use to justify "but it's OP, and we have to nuke it from orbit" are still unavailable to me. I have 8ish years of weapons that will accept sentience, for example, but don't have access to the content to farm the necessary materials, and so, can't reach the height requirement of "you must be this tall to ride this ride" in order to qualify for all this OP'ness they want to use to justify nerfing stuff that's been largely underwhelming to this point. So the Developer Letter held nothing of interest to me. While I have always wanted epic versions of Catacombs and Delera's, it's spoiled by what it's going to cost me in terms of investment in building the characters I'd want to be for sure running this content. Why get excited about additions I wanted, when the cost is pulling the rug out from under me, and worse, pulling it out from under me as soon as I TR into a final build that actually uses feats that are now going to be even more underwhelming?

The problem with the current design philosophy is that it's targeting gamers, and some of us keep an eye on new games coming down the pipe. If the design direction makes a significant change in direction, or makes certain playstyles harder to justify, such as U45, then why spend money here that can be directed to those other games in the pipe? Greedfall is sitting on my xbox, waiting for me to get around to finishing it, as are alternate runs of The Outer Worlds, FO 3, NV and 4, the Dishonored series, etc., not to mention games that aren't here yet, but are coming, such as Cyperpunk 2077. I hope that the playerbase they are aiming these changes at appeasing are enough to keep the lights on, I really do, but with this being the current direction, I'm in a position where it's easier to just cut my losses, instead of hoping against hope that history isn't repeated with "Lamannia is a preview server, not a test server".

[Velenfein]

Once upon a time, there was a player that loved inquisitive and ranged characters sooo much that he spent hundreds of dollars on DDO on otto boxes, legendary bypass timers just to repeat and repeat project nemesis in order to finally get that Hallowed splinter. Then he farmed threads over and over again to boost Hallowed Splinter to its maximum value.

Then developpers announced they were going to nerf inquisitive. He expected that and accepted it.

Then developpers announced they were going to nerf IPS. Numerous of players complained about this ridiculous move, knowing the game more than the developpers themselves. But the developpers did not listen.

Finally, that player removed his credit card from the game and promised himself he would never after spend anymore money in this game, where developpers are neither listening to their community nor testing their stuff before making it live.

This is not a Disney story with a good ending, because i can tell you, this player is stinkingly rich, and DDO, by your decision, you lost huge amount of future income.

Thank you.

[Lencrennis]

Are you going to fix it by just undoing it or are you going to fix it the way Flimsy “fixed” what he did to Amber Temple, which is to say not at all. This is our last chance to address a horrible change. What goes on Lamannia next, goes live. Do us a favor and listen this time.

That one doesn't listen.

Specifically, if you'd juxtapose his ego and his skill, you'd get the model Google employee.

[Aelonwy]

That one doesn't listen.

Specifically, if you'd juxtapose his ego and his skill, you'd get the model Google employee.

That's not right. Flimsy is incredibly skilled, he's just one of those DMs that is contemptuous and a little spiteful. Whenever players are having trouble with one of his quests I picture him like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdasbLKm4s0

[DRoark]

We've replied about the context behind the IPS change a number of times already (see my sig for one example) , and you'll be seeing further changes accompanying the IPS change in next week's Lamannia.

The context was invalid as soon as they said IPS made rangers "AOE". There were no problems, then the "endgame meta" changed
with INQ and now there's a growing issue. Sort of narrows down the actual problem, and literally the entire playerbase can see.

Your signature, is basically "cats and dogs aren't balanced, so we're nerfing this 10-year old cat, because we added SUPER-CATS, but those not playing super-cats will be nerfed too".

I quote your Producer: "Inquisitive is much stronger than the others..." When your OWN MAN, is pointing out where the Meta is, how can anything about this patch be taken seriously?

Is there an imbalance? Well, sure, my barbarian can't melee from 100 yards away, and I have yet to be able to stab someone with a longbow on my Ranger.

From people that actually PLAY the game (constantly), don't you think we have a practical idea on how things work? Give them some credit, we're not sheep, and we're not a blank check.

[Clemeit]

To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming

Yeah, but like, nobody actually believes that. It's not like avid players are uninformed, either. IPS builds were doing just fine until Inquisitive came along and blew literally every other build out of the water. IPS has been just fine since 2006. The only thing that changed was Inquisitive.

[LurkingVeteran]

The problem is with giving ranged AoE builds the DPS of single target melee DPS. Ranged and Xbow builds in particular have been getting stronger over the last decade. This just wasn't as visible until they finally removed the ranged reaper scaling nerf, and with Inq it got out of hand. This is what has changed. Back in the day ranged did less than half the DPS of melee, do you want to go back to that?

That said, I think a good compromise would be to focus more on buffs to melee gap closers, AoE DPS and survivability. As it is now, a rogue Inq, and even Mech, is just much more reaper friendly (esp. first life)
than the same rogue in TA.

[psykopeta]

Once upon a time, there was a player that loved inquisitive and ranged characters sooo much that he spent hundreds of dollars on DDO on otto boxes, legendary bypass timers just to repeat and repeat project nemesis in order to finally get that Hallowed splinter. Then he farmed threads over and over again to boost Hallowed Splinter to its maximum value.

Then developpers announced they were going to nerf inquisitive. He expected that and accepted it.

Then developpers announced they were going to nerf IPS. Numerous of players complained about this ridiculous move, knowing the game more than the developpers themselves. But the developpers did not listen.

Finally, that player removed his credit card from the game and promised himself he would never after spend anymore money in this game, where developpers are neither listening to their community nor testing their stuff before making it live.

This is not a Disney story with a good ending, because i can tell you, this player is stinkingly rich, and DDO, by your decision, you lost huge amount of future income.

Thank you.

If only there were more whales doing so... DDO would be quite different, however looks like whales in DDO are more famboys than even the white knights justifying whatever dumbine tries to make us swallow

But hey we have hardcore league and 1 disfunctional guy posting every week, in every category, cause he loves hardcore league (but would stop playing if it was called reaper league instead, that's the level of players who ssg pays attention to)

Simply amazing, as amazing as last 6 months sales, disappointing in fact, all for the ottos yay!

[DRoark]

The problem is with giving ranged AoE builds the DPS of single target melee DPS..

I've played all the ranged builds, including throwers, and my melee still has more cleave/group DPS, with the exception of a stock INQ build.
Changing IPS isn't the core issue, it's only the INQ meta that caused the problem, and even the Producer said that it was too strong. Making
every other ranged build in the game suffer, instead of reworking the one tree, is a poor solution.

[Ashlayna]

I've played all the ranged builds, including throwers, and my melee still has more cleave/group DPS, with the exception of a stock INQ build.
Changing IPS isn't the core issue, it's only the INQ meta that caused the problem, and even the Producer said that it was too strong. Making
every other ranged build in the game suffer, instead of reworking the one tree, is a poor solution.

I have to wonder about how much money they would have saved too. A whole lot less dev time devoted to things that weren't broken, that could have been applied to things that are.

[LurkingVeteran]

I've played all the ranged builds, including throwers, and my melee still has more cleave/group DPS, with the exception of a stock INQ build.
Changing IPS isn't the core issue, it's only the INQ meta that caused the problem, and even the Producer said that it was too strong. Making
every other ranged build in the game suffer, instead of reworking the one tree, is a poor solution.

Out of curiosity, what melee build? We are talking about L20+ content I assume? Do you rely on AoE cc/helpless for this? I would be surprised if say a L30 Fighter sustains higher AoE DPS on harder difficulties than a similarly well-built Mech or shuri-cannon. I mean, end-game melee cleave DPS is generally significantly lower than their single-target. Tempest being the exception. The one benefit is that you can more easily hit many targets if you they are all bunched up, but unless you can burst them down in dire charge, you will probably die.

That said, I don't really have strong opinions, I'm not really up to date. It's just that we have known for a long time that cleave DPS scales poorly. We also know that melee have a harder time surviving in reaper. It stands to reason that as ranged DPS goes up, IPS will overtake melee cleaves in effectiveness at some point, it's just controversial where/when that happens. I would love for some actual gameplay video comparisons or numbers. Additionally, there is both a difficulty dimension and a solo vs. group dimension to this. We know Inqs can solo many R10s. I'm not sure what the limit is for Mechs. The impressive melee solos I've seen have relied on being able to burst things down during a dire charge.

[Mindos]

I hope I am wrong, but I can't shake the feeling that SSG is nerfing things now, and then 6 months to a year later, they are gonna sell us all this power back that we lost. In other words, take away what we already have now, and make us pay real money later to equal or surpass.

People got upset, rightfully so, when something they PAID real money for, got nerfed.
I wonder if they will get just as mad if the nerf comes first, then the sell?

But I hope I'm wrong.

[Aelonwy]

I hope I am wrong, but I can't shake the feeling that SSG is nerfing things now, and then 6 months to a year later, they are gonna sell us all this power back that we lost. In other words, take away what we already have now, and make us pay real money later to equal or surpass.

People got upset, rightfully so, when something they PAID real money for, got nerfed.
I wonder if they will get just as mad if the nerf comes first, then the sell?

But I hope I'm wrong.

Wow that is a very cynical and somewhat nefarious idea. I hope you're wrong too.

[GeneralDiomedes]

I feel like I am in opposite land. I play an Inq and IPS damage is pretty ridiculous. Pit it against quests like Slavers with lots of mobs and long hallways and your are hitting 5-6 mobs regularly. If that isn’t AOE I don’t know what is.

[DRoark]

If that isn’t AOE I don’t know what is.

For this, I will tease you... You don't know what is. Never play a caster. )

Cone spells (cone of cold, shout), area bursts (like fireballs), rain (fire storm), saves effects (implosion), are all AOEs.
There are even nifty photos in the D&D books, simple enough a designer can see what an AOE actually consists of. ))

Lining up monsters running down a hallway backwards and hoping to shoot though several at once with IPS, is not an "AOE spell",
but somehow the design team's under the impression Rangers can hit entire rooms full of monsters, so they treat them like casters.

[LurkingVeteran]

For this, I will tease you... You don't know what is. Never play a caster. )

Cone spells (cone of cold, shout), area bursts (like fireballs), rain (fire storm), saves effects (implosion), are all AOEs.
There are even nifty photos in the D&D books, simple enough a designer can see what an AOE actually consists of. ))

Lining up monsters running down a hallway backwards and hoping to shoot though several at once with IPS, is not an "AOE spell",
but somehow the design team's under the impression Rangers can hit entire rooms full of monsters, so they treat them like casters.

Line AoEs like lightning bolt are a thing. It's wider than IPS, but you still need to line them up.

[DRoark]

Line AoEs like lightning bolt are a thing. It's wider than IPS, but you still need to line them up.

True on lightning bolt, but only because it effects a 5' wide swath, and there's no "HIT" roll involved. It's a base saving throw.
Same with every other actual AOE.

Ray spells that pass-through (similar to IPS) aren't AOE's, every single monster in the line requires a separate attack roll.
Now, you want to give me 5' wide arrows, that don't require a hit roll, and still do half damage if the target makes a save vs my DEX? Sure.

[Ashlayna]

True on lightning bolt, but only because it effects a 5' wide swath, and there's no "HIT" roll involved. It's a base saving throw.
Same with every other actual AOE.

Ray spells that pass-through (similar to IPS) aren't AOE's, every single monster in the line requires a separate attack roll.
Now, you want to give me 5' wide arrows, that don't require a hit roll, and still do half damage if the target makes a save vs my DEX? Sure.

Dammit, now I really want 5' square arrows. That would sure take all the guess work out of hitting those mobs that are too tall, too short, or standing an inch lower on the terrain.

[Kermon]

Ironically, I'm more concerned with the changes for Archer's focus. I'm not sure I like all the stacks going away when I hit a different creature, although being able to move with it will be nice. I'm wondering if I kill a mob and target another if the stacks will go away or if instead switching targets would only remove like half of the stacks or something else as a compromise.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

to finally get that Hallowed splinter

If it isn't available for low levels, then I'm not interested in it.

And, besides, since Inquisitive isn't overperforming at low levels - at least no-one has ever specifically posted it - then I'm not interested in these whole discussions at all.

The only thing I can say is that ranged feels like "overpowered" because i can shoot Sahuagin from a far, far away distance in Korthos. As Melee, I would have to specifically run to the monster, or taun it so that it comes to me.

This specifically feels overpowered because ranged characters have a somuch easiert play time there. Running to a monster is - from a cynical point of view - play time lost - at least if you want to do nothing but speedsruns out of this game.

My guess is that some parts of this "is overpowered" discussion is evoked from a bad feeling melee players have when they compare themselbves to ranged players.

A ranged class is able to act like some sort of lawn mover, killing everything in sight, and the melees ? They have nothing to do anymore. They might feel like the 5th wheel of a car.

I do know, because I've had this feeling myself. In another game, yes, but the problem is everywhere : Ranged classes are able to take everything away from melee characters. It feels like some sort of "kill stealing", and in an highly competitive environment it might even be so.

That's why I'm so much glad that the whole quest xp and everything is given out at the end of the quest, to everyone, and that the quest is finished for the whole group ... Or, in other words : In DDO, the group effort counts. Not the individual kills. Or am I wrong ?


However, the bad feeling still persists. To arrive at a place and see that everything has already been killed by ranged characters. Leaves me nothing to do. "Why am I even in this group, then ? Nobody needs me !"

The fact that ranged classes are vulnerable to melee attacks themselves, and therefore have to withdraw and rely on the help of their melee comrades, this fact is either neglected because of lawn mover, or ignored because of very good armor protection.

I think that discussions like these are underlying often driven by emotions, by feelings, too.

[Strider1963]

Except that the situation in your signature is a "you must be this tall to ride this ride" situation? I've been playing ranged since ranged wasn't cool. I played AA when everyone insisted that you must always maintain a melee option, because you're contribution to the party was going to be too low if you didn't. But let's address some of these claims more directly:

"Easy Access to AoE": Initially, that was assumed to be how easy it was to get, which was countered with how easy it is to use. It isn't easy to get, even Rangers, that get it for free, don't get it until level 11. Cleave is available at 3, if the conditions are met. If I'm going melee, which I have, I'm meeting those conditions, unless I'm not using a strength build, in which case, the Cleave line won't be on my radar. Regardless, it was stated "easy to use", which is partially true, it's a set it and forget it toggle. Other than that, making good use of it is not easy. It requires effort to use effectively, contrary to the misconception apparent in this claim, mobs do not automatically line up in a conga line for ranged toons to be able to pick a mob at the back, and roflstomp everything in that line. Have you tried to use tab targeting for this?

Aside from this, there's mob heights, terrain, character height and positioning to take into consideration. In a group of 5 spiders that, for the sake of argument, do line up in the conga line, targeting the one in the back will miss the first 2 or maybe even 3, depending on mob spacing, and character race. This is easily duplicatable, just take a half orc and a halfling archer into your testing server, and line 'em up. As an aside to this, I see it as something that is WAI. Arrows/bolts should fly over the head of mobs that are too short to be in that direct line of fire. So it's not "it affects all mobs directly in front of you", contrary to what your stated position would lead one to believe, there are other factors that you are leaving out. The other issue with this is "but if I kite them down a hall", where kiting, which is defined in DDO as "running backwards to the dungeon entrance", isn't done properly. I have never, and will never, use this method of "kiting". Perhaps it's the fact that I'm really "Old School" as far as this is concerned? In Old School, ranged is an effective way to pull mobs to the party. A tactic which is out the window in "I have to zerg this quest in x", where x is an arbitrarily short amount of time. So you're building the game for one playstyle, zerg.

That can be evidenced by Lynnabel's statement that these nerfs are aimed at endgame. Here's the problem with that; most ranged builds will have Precise Shot by level 4. That is not endgame. So your solution to your misconception regarding "ease of access to AoE" is to nerf the entire ranged playstyle, for the entire game. We came into this update knowing that Inquisitive was going to changed. What we didn't expect was a scorched earth policy on ranged combat due to that. "But we're going to do x, y or z" is irrelevant. None of these changes were required in the first place. IF Joe Newbie could roll a first life ranger, playing for the first time, and dominate content as an AA, you might have a point, but they can't. By your own admission, bows in the current meta are underperforming vs everyone, barring "you must be this tall to ride this ride" builds with all the bells and whistles. The problem for building around, and nerfing for that scenario is that not everyone is tall enough to ride that ride, and the clear message from an "update" like this is "we don't care", or "git gud"?

If endgame is the problem, focus on endgame, don't nerf an entire playstyle, for the entirety of the time a player will be running it. If an Enhancement tree is overperforming, which is what we're saying about Inquisitive, fix it. It doesn't require "fixing" feats that have been in the game forever, it simply requires finding what is causing the OP'ness, and correcting it. It's not PS or IPS, it's synergies within the tree that need adjusting. It's "easy access" to things that shouldn't have been allowed to go live in the first place, all within the tree in question. All this pass has shown me is that you're more concerned with getting the "next big thing" out to the public. The misconceptions about how the game is played inherent in your signature make this plain. We do have a percentage of the population that do play this way, but that percentage isn't 100%.

Totally agree with this post. Also, IPS is only good if you can line them up at all, which is more and more difficult the higher level the quests are. Most of the mobs start splitting up as soon as a fight starts and youre lucky if you can line up 2 of em. Again, along with the legacy buffs, dont fix something that aint broke. Personally, If im in a party, I really dont care who gets the most kills, me, the guy next to me, or anyone else, as long as its a completion. Balancing top end dps is a waste of time as the meta builds always are changing. Just buff the really underperforming builds, like the ranged ranger which is in serious need of help. Dont make them op, just make them viable.

[Justicesfury]

For those worried or upset Inquisitor Nerf, this is just part of the DDO circle of life.

We have all seen this before:

Step 1: Make something imbalanced that is great so everyone buys it.

Step 2: Once enough people buy it, nerf it.

Step3: Just repeat steps one and two.

With regards to IPS changes, they probably just really make sure xbows in general will be ruined enough so people will be more compelled to spend money on newer stuff.

Remember this is a pay for power game. Any game that lets you increase your power by spending Real Life Money on things like otto boxes, is going to make creative decisions based purely on profit.

[Jerevth]

I hope I am wrong, but I can't shake the feeling that SSG is nerfing things now, and then 6 months to a year later, they are gonna sell us all this power back that we lost. In other words, take away what we already have now, and make us pay real money later to equal or surpass.

People got upset, rightfully so, when something they PAID real money for, got nerfed.
I wonder if they will get just as mad if the nerf comes first, then the sell?

But I hope I'm wrong.

Somewhat like what happened with FvS being updated simultaneously with the release of Falconry? Wisdom to damage...

It does seem like there is an expiration date for great new metas (Classes, enhancements, etc) that could be argued as "data based adjustments" but also coincide with a) the next new thing and b) the sales curve approaching the bottom of the curve.

Ingredients may not have an expiration (yet) but classes, gear and enhancement trees do.

WRT the IPS nerf: Putting a response on one's signature line as the "final word" signifies that you aren't going to listen to the end users. You walked away from the discussion, ignored the requests to justify a major downshift in all RANGED combat when there was no issue with IPS- not even identified by the forum trolls- until the full power of the inquisitive enhancement class tree was seen. Essentially, this was a non-visible problem until Inquisitive was introduced -or- it's chaff deployed in defense of Inquisitive sales.

While the game must operate within rules for balance, so to must the developers: that means actually identifying the rules not tweaking things fast and LOOSE, or making arbitrary changes on a whim. Define the role of the classes, expectations of the enhancement trees and establish the limitations.

When I was seven I had a t-shirt that said: If you're losing the game, change the rules.

SSG, you aren't seven.

[KaVaYo]

We've replied about the context behind the IPS change a number of times already (see my sig for one example) , and you'll be seeing further changes accompanying the IPS change in next week's Lamannia.

My main is a pure warforged repeater artificer, epic completionist and with the best gear I could afford to get. And I still have some trouble with some high level quests, wich is fine. But if you keep making my artificer worst each update, I'll stop playing. If you force all ranged toons to be inquisitives once it's adjusted to be able to midly perform, I'll stop playing. IPS has been this way since ever and it has not been until you (SSG) released an over the charts, in terms of power, inquisitive that you decided to fix IPS, wich is not broken and needs no fix.

Each fix or update you get online, my will to play and, as a side effect, my will to purchase content decreases. And it should be exactly the oposite.

Thanks for reading and please, consider your player base feedback or stop asking for it.

[Anasu]

A ranged class is able to act like some sort of lawn mover, killing everything in sight, and the melees ? They have nothing to do anymore. They might feel like the 5th wheel of a car.

I do know, because I've had this feeling myself. In another game, yes, but the problem is everywhere : Ranged classes are able to take everything away from melee characters. It feels like some sort of "kill stealing", and in an highly competitive environment it might even be so.

That's why I'm so much glad that the whole quest xp and everything is given out at the end of the quest, to everyone, and that the quest is finished for the whole group ... Or, in other words : In DDO, the group effort counts. Not the individual kills. Or am I wrong ?


However, the bad feeling still persists. To arrive at a place and see that everything has already been killed by ranged characters. Leaves me nothing to do. "Why am I even in this group, then ? Nobody needs me !"

The fact that ranged classes are vulnerable to melee attacks themselves, and therefore have to withdraw and rely on the help of their melee comrades, this fact is either neglected because of lawn mover, or ignored because of very good armor protection.

I think that discussions like these are underlying often driven by emotions, by feelings, too.


Trash is mostly irrelevant when playing melee - and you are right. Only the win matters. It has been this way since release. Other than the broke Reaper mechanics for melee in general, because survival scaling is horriterribad for melees in Reaper and everyone knows it, when I play a melee dps I know the role is to put it to the bosses with a quickness. I do not waste resources on trash unless one of the ranged gets in trouble. I run through the dungeons pointing out the garbage to the garbage men: necros, dc priests, shuricannons, sorcs, and any class + plus inquisitive for example. "Hey grab that one - don't forget that bit". When I show up with my own garbage truck, I take out the garbage and count on the melee to put most of the whopping on the bosses.

The problem is not so much that ranged builds out-perform melee in taking out the trash. The problem is Inqui-builds taking the trash out, like good garbage men, then being able to put the hurt on bosses like DW Rangers. This is the argument that Steelstar is missing with the Bow-users in particular I think. They can only take out the trash if they are the only ones on garbage detail, and the melee are slow and run their mile in 12 mins. I have a rogue mech at cap, pretty well geared. I switched to Inquisitive for a couple of hours when I landed a Nightshade on a run with the guild. It was fun.

For about...two hours. Not my thing. But great garbage men. And boss burst? Really good. Too good in fact. I guess I just can not see putting it to the the Bow-users in particular because those on the TR train are loving the quick life cycles and the devs realize they blew it. They made a mutant, The Garbage Man™. Now to clarify, I do not give a **** if these players do nothing but play Inquisitive until the game shuts down. This one is on the devs.

But maybe, the devs might want to make sure the ranged builds that are NOT Inquisitive can stand on their own before they insist that they walk to the truck with the garbage.