Scion of ethereal plane changes feedback

[Avocado]

The the change to scion of ethereal plane is not necessarily a bad change, but it hurts the players that invest in SA like rogues, rangers, and monks. The borderline for taking scion of arboria over scion of ethereal is about 130 hide meaning you should take ethereal if your have over 130 hide if you want more damage. With the changes being made that it is based on rank of the skill, which maxes at 23. 23 *1.5=34.5 SA. Unchanged on my rogue it was 160/3=53 SA damage. Thats a 35% decrease. That is a significant decrease.

That being said, I'd like to purpose a alternate change. My guess is that scion of ethereal was changed for the reason being that high melee/ranged power toons were getting too much advantage from it just from the sheer value of melee ranged power that was possible (like 400), because SA scales with 1.5x your RP/MP. How about instead of nerfing it for those players you make it more geared towards the plays style it was intended for, rogue/rangers/monks. Change all SA increasing enhancements (not gear) to 1d8 die or more and scale back the benefit of MP/RP from 1.5x to 1x. This better retains the SA for classes that are supposed to have it.

Calculations: 100 ranged/melee power, 10 SA dice and scion as it is now at 150 hide.
10*3.5=35 SA + 50 SA =85 SA * 2.5 (mp) = 212.5 SA so 212.
10*4.5 =45 SA +50 SA = 95 SA * 2 = 190 SA 212/190 = 11.6% decrease in SA.

That is half the reduction in SA damage for people who take scion of ethereal then if the new changes went live.

How i got half reduction
10*3.5 =35 SA + 50 (150 hide/3) = 85 Vs
10*3.5= 35 SA + 34.5 (new change SA) = 69.5
85/69.5 = 22.3% decrease. 11.6 is half of 22.3

Thoughts?

Many scion feats are scaling to some degree for damage purposes. Like feywild scaling with SP. This change to scion of the ethreal plane will no longer scale in to epics well and there will be no reward for gearing your toon with hide bonuses and instead it only rewards with melee power bonuses. It scales with rank, but you cant change your rank beyond level 20 and you cant scale rank with gear. So it needs to be scalable to more of a degree then just melee power. This may be too much work for to handle and im not sure how hard it would be change all the enhancements to d8s or d10s. I thought id at least but the idea out there.

Thanks for reading.

[Lynnabel]

Thanks for the analysis! I'm very interested in ideas to help the new Scion of the Ethereal Plane scale into epics better. If you've got a cool suggestion, let me know! That being said, abilities that scale off of skills have the potential to be increasingly viable as the game progresses, which means that Scion was beginning to eclipse other options - and this problem would only get worse with time. Ideally the Scion feats are equally usable and equally viable, and the key to that is avoiding certain scaling functions that have the potential to increase in effectiveness in an effort to prevent constant redesigning.

[Aelonwy]

I'm curious which Scion feat does SSG think goes well with Alchemist?

Why does Scion of the Ethereal give blur (available at lv4 on item) and not lesser displacement (available as early as lvl 10)? Probably not necessary with end game equipment but any reason it doesn't give Ghostly?

I'm still surprised Scion of the Feywild has no musical or bardic component. No extra songs or extra song duration.

None give Transmutation DCs, extra rages, extra smites, extra turns, or extra light damage which could be less than the 2d20 of other types since it is less resisted.

Will Scion of the Astral now also give 4% Strike Through Chance? Will that go somewhere else?

Just curiosities.

[Lynnabel]

I'm curious which Scion feat does SSG think goes well with Alchemist?

Hmmmm, I assume most players will take Fire for the probably too high universal Spell Crit Damage if they're going caster, and/or whatever element matches their primary focus. For Thrower/melee it's probably either Ethereal or Arborea. You're right that there's no Poison one, hmmmm....

[HungarianRhapsody]

Hmmmm, I assume most players will take Fire for the probably too high universal Spell Crit Damage if they're going caster, and/or whatever element matches their primary focus. For Thrower/melee it's probably either Ethereal or Arborea. You're right that there's no Poison one, hmmmm....

I'm guessing that one attractive option will be 7 Wizard levels with 12 Alchemist levels and Scion of Shadowfell.

I'm surprised that you said that people would take their element because the elements only give +10 spell power for that type. It's the "extra" bonuses like spell crit or +DC for spells or defensive bonuses, etc. that make the various Scions attractive.

I don't think anyone is going to take a Scion for the elemental damage bonus unless they just misread the bonus and think it's +100.

[tsotate]

Why does Scion of the Ethereal give blur (available at lv4 on item) and not lesser displacement (available as early as lvl 10)?
Good question. Even more so, since Blur is available at level 3 (Bracers of Wind).

[SirValentine]

I'm surprised that you said that people would take their element because the elements only give +10 spell power for that type. It's the "extra" bonuses like spell crit or +DC for spells or defensive bonuses, etc. that make the various Scions attractive.


Exactly. I don't expect to play one any time soon, but if I did, Plane of Earth would be my clear choice. They told us Alchemist spells are almost all Transmutation (no Scion feat for that) and Conjuration.

[droid327]

I'm guessing that one attractive option will be 7 Wizard levels with 12 Alchemist levels and Scion of Shadowfell.


Shhh you're gonna make em stick a 1 sec ICD on the heal effect and make it useless :P

[Komradkillingmachine]

Thanks for the analysis! I'm very interested in ideas to help the new Scion of the Ethereal Plane scale into epics better. If you've got a cool suggestion, let me know! That being said, abilities that scale off of skills have the potential to be increasingly viable as the game progresses, which means that Scion was beginning to eclipse other options - and this problem would only get worse with time. Ideally the Scion feats are equally usable and equally viable, and the key to that is avoiding certain scaling functions that have the potential to increase in effectiveness in an effort to prevent constant redesigning.

I'm sorry but how about leaving it alone? In-game experience shows that Dex-based toons with Scion of Ethereal DO NOT and NEVER DID eclipse other options or make said builds OP in any situation at endgame. Outside of Dex Assassins, maybe.

If you proceed with proposed changes everyone will just switch to Arborea b/c it most definitely will overshadow Ethereal.

[Lynnabel]

I'm sorry but how about leaving it alone? In-game experience shows that Dex-based toons with Scion of Ethereal DO NOT and NEVER DID eclipse other options or make said builds OP in any situation at endgame. Outside of Dex Assassins, maybe.

If you proceed with proposed changes everyone will just switch to Arborea b/c it most definitely will overshadow Ethereal.

It's not about builds with Eth versus builds without Eth, it's that Eth continues to scale upwards and the other feats do not.

[droid327]

It's not about builds with Eth versus builds without Eth, it's that Eth continues to scale upwards and the other feats do not.

I really do appreciate you're trying to creep-proof a feature :) Too many multiplicative scalars that end up becoming balance issues down the road...

Why does Eth need to be based on a skill at all, then? None of the other Scions give any benefits that are based on your stats. Why not just change Eth to be a flat +X sneak damage? Sneak damage is already a fairly specific, situational mechanic, its not universal damage like Arborea. What's the design philosophy behind making it specifically tied to builds investing in Hide, as opposed to just investing in utilizing the Sneak mechanic (Bluff, Sniper Shot, Blind effects, etc.)?

[Deathdefy]

It's not about builds with Eth versus builds without Eth, it's that Eth continues to scale upwards and the other feats do not.

Thanks for the context - truly appreciated. I don't love the design philosophy behind that and argue why below. It's obviously just my passionate hot take and not meant disrespectfully; the chance to engage meaningfully on DDO's direction is awesome and I'm aware I don't know what else is in the pipeline.

Arborea scales multiplicatively with way more stuff
- RP/MP is too prominent in DDO's current design philosophy
- Whether Ethereal or Arborea scale more entirely depends on how you guys move forward in the future.
- There's a ton of stuff you might increase that will scale for Arborea disproportionately as Ethereal has a 1:0 benefit from them:

Things Arborea scales upward with
Basically all increases to damage that aren't related to MP/RP - my inqui's list is:
50.75 Base Weapon damage (Xbow from Same Old Song) (so [W])
53 Ability mod to weapon damage (Int)
17 Deadly
8 I Deadly
5 Q Deadly
4 P Deadly (Litany)
2 R Deadly (Dread Adversary)
0 A Deadly (Slaver's but too gimpy in context)
6 PL Ranger
3 PL Monk
3 Enchant Weapon PL
6.5 Combat Archery (so [W])
6.5 Dance of Flowers (so [W])
6.5 Point Blank Shot (so [W])
26 KTA (so Ability to damage)
6 Inqui Crossbow [all Enhancements that specifically just add damage though, including KTA / Deadly instincts and the like that will grow with stats]

Then there's all the actual sneak attack damage that only benefits from Arborea and not Ethereal
24.5 Sneak Attack
7 Wraith Form SA
0 Assassin SA Enh (too hard)
27 Deception
13 I Deception
6 Q Deception
3 Rogue PL
17.5 Shadow Dancer
10.5 Wildwood

Then there's also
- Law Damage,
- Rune Arm damage,
- Harbinger of Law/Chaos
- Seeker
- Clickie attacks (this one's massive and super hard to spreadsheet given you'd need to work out frequency of Hunt's End-Shoot Laters, but I'd put money it's very significant)
- and this is just looking at my inquisitor build.

Things Ethereal scales upward with
It scales off:
- RP/MP
- Hide
- Dex at a third order (6 Dex : 3 Hide : 1 SA)

I don't think I'm being unfair in saying the issue is Ethereal scaling off RP/MP (though if the dev team is actually, 'heck yeah stealth gameplay U47 where the stacking hide items at?' I am very on board).

Scaling Upward

Spreading power creep across multiple bases instead of just RP/MP, so the game is not "What has the highest RP in the game, it's Inquisitor and Shiradi" would be a really good direction moving forward.
- I totally get that an injection of RP/MP into some gimp tree somewhere could band-aid some problems and think that in places it's probably appropriate given it exists in a few places now. It's like a fungal growth, but one that could be useful; think penicillin.

But, in general, it'd be great to not consider MP/RP the way forward for developing the game?
- Incremental raw base damage / sneak attack / gradual stat increases are so much more attractive for keeping everything viable, build diversity alive, and makes balance a game of inches rather than miles.
- Pre-Epic DDO had this and we still S/S/S hunted like crazy for +4 Deadly from Epic Claw Set.
- I've mouthed off a little about inquisitor but pinpointing what specifically made it OP was genuinely hard. I think, though, that it was the unparalleled 35 Ranged Power compared with all the existing trees with like, 20 RP, from mechanic - which already was the clear choice over the other ranged trees with less.
- Ranged Power and Melee Power are wildly blunt instruments that are causing this, and other issues. It's not Ethereal. Ethereal as it stands is super cool and makes for interesting build and gear choices.

DDO is a rich and beautiful tapestry

- The builds using this should come into it.
- As should the items and class splits (and even other feats and enhancements) that are using it.
- You can't make a Dex build on live right now that isn't a little dps gimped and this feat is part of what keeps them semi-viable.
- Whether the characters using the feat are OP or not should be a large factor in the decision to-nerf-or-not-to-nerf. I would argue more so than potential issues down the road that hopefully won't even eventuate if we can all power down on the Power.

Again, I do genuinely appreciate the frankness of the post. That the dev team, some more than others (in a good way!), are so forthcoming about where their heads are at is freaking magic. If a bunch of seemingly crazy nerfs came out of nowhere I'd just bail. This way, if it does proceed, I'll cop it and try and convince you all again later about how we should cool off on the RP/MP.

Please leave Scion of the Ethereal Plane unchanged.

[Rauven]

It's not about builds with Eth versus builds without Eth, it's that Eth continues to scale upwards and the other feats do not.

As Avocado showed, using base ranks alone is a nerf to Ethereal. The cutoff point for taking Ethereal over Arborea is a hide of 130, which equates to 43 bonus sneak attack. Your concern is that Ethereal doesn't scale well because there is, theoretically, no limit to how high one could get their hide score. Currently, Ethereal adds +4 to all skills. If you could allow those four points to count toward the base then the calculation would be:

(23 base + 4 Ethereal) * 1.5 = 40.5 bonus sneak attack damage - equivalent to a 121 hide under current Ethereal

While that is a little below the numerical cutoff for Arborea over Ethereal it is closer than the current proposed change and much less of a nerf to Ethereal.

Alternatively, if you allow half epic skill ranks to count then the balance between Arborea and Ethereal would be much closer.

(23 base + 10/2) * 1.5 = 42 bonus sneak attack damage - equivalent to a 126 hide under current Ethereal

Using half epic skill ranks gives a nice round number and it's the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything.

[karatemack]

It's not about builds with Eth versus builds without Eth, it's that Eth continues to scale upwards and the other feats do not.

With the current change it will still continue to scale though, right? Just at a slower pace?

Why not simply include a maximum amount a character can gain? (IE: "+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 3 points of Hide you have up to a maximum of x Sneak Attack damage")

[Lynnabel]

With the current change it will still continue to scale though, right? Just at a slower pace?

No, Ranks are something placed during level-up and are capped at 23.

[Kielbasa]

Let's take all the math out of it for a moment. The main reason scion of the ethereal plane is good is that it gives people a reason to go against the meta. Currently non spell casters mostly use arborea and a small group use eth. Build diversity is good please continue to give us reason to explore that further.

My suggestion would be to add part of the tier 6 from shadow dancer to this feat granting the user the ability to make thing immune to sneak attack vulnerable to sneak attack.

If they have scion of the ethereal plane and t6 from shadow dancer maybe further increase their vulnerability to physical damage than just the 5% from shadowdancer.


If you are going to adjust legendary feats you should be buffing earth, air, water, or feywild. And to a lesser extent fire so maybe a non caster would think of taking it but its ok if you don't.

A simple suggestion would be for all the elemental scions to allow you to break elemental immunity for that element. Water should get a +20 mrr cap increase added to it.

If there is a scion of poison it could work like the t4 from vile chemist.

Let their damage scale off melee or ranged power if it would give the player more damage than using their current spell power. It would need to be adjusted to be some percentage greater than 100% scaling to at least be competitive.

Scion of the astral plane could get passive Ki regen added to it as well.

[CaptainSpacePony]

No, Ranks are something placed during level-up and are capped at 23.

So the Epic Skills Feat doesn't count?

(Or the skill feat... stealthy I think it is?)

[Vorachtin]

No, Ranks are something placed during level-up and are capped at 23.

I mean, this "legendary feat" is now gutted. It got the nuclear nerf in U45. It happens, we grab another feat and move on. Aborea is now more attractive and helps offset the IPS nerf for range at least.

[Avocado]

snip

I have been telling this to people for awhile now, they should do a gradual reduction in sources of RP/MP. Its lead to so much bloat and unbalance. Epic levels should give zero and everything else should be dropped down to sane. Just cut all rp/mp bonuses by 1/3 to 1/2 of current. This would sure create mass panic on the forums but i think in the end would be better for a more balanced game.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My first char was/is a Rgr11/Rog4/Wiz5. Now 30, never TRed or ERed.

Scorned as inferior for almost 14 years.

It never ceases to amaze me at how many ways you guys have nerfed him over the years.

Now your even nerfing his Camouflage spell.....

[Kielbasa]

My first char was/is a Rgr11/Rog4/Wiz5. Now 30, never TRed or ERed.

Scorned as inferior for almost 14 years.

It never ceases to amaze me at how many ways you guys have nerfed him over the years.

Now your even nerfing his Camouflage spell.....

Maybe they can rework camouflage to add dodge/dodge cap ala the fancy scaling on some of the new pally spells.

I would love for longstrider mass to be classed the same type of movement speed as the boosts given to bards, druids, monks, rogues, and warlocks. You can lower it to 10% so it doesn't outclass those other classes just make it more than a waste of space. Would go a long ways towards giving them an actual useful mass buff for groups. Help them buff slower classes to keep up with all the alchemists soon to be zooming all over the place.

[Aelonwy]

Good question. Even more so, since Blur is available at level 3 (Bracers of Wind).

My hubby hates the challenges so I often forget what exists from there. Thank you for reminding me. So yes a 30th level feat has a level 3 effect. Shrug worthy to say the least.

[Aelonwy]

Hmmmm, I assume most players will take Fire for the probably too high universal Spell Crit Damage if they're going caster, and/or whatever element matches their primary focus. For Thrower/melee it's probably either Ethereal or Arborea. You're right that there's no Poison one, hmmmm....

Honestly I wish more than one scion gave the spell crit dmg but I'd also be fine with it being lowered. Its weird that its only for fire, like Elec Sorc or Cold Sorc don't want and need crit too? What about a cleric that chooses an elemental domain? What about druid that specializes in the Winter Season?

[Avocado]

Honestly I wish more than one scion gave the spell crit dmg but I'd also be fine with it being lowered. Its weird that its only for fire, like Elec Sorc or Cold Sorc don't want and need crit too? What about a cleric that chooses an elemental domain? What about druid that specializes in the Winter Season?

Scion of fire is hardly only for fire spec casters. Sure the on hit fire portion is fire only but the only thing it gives a fire caster over anything other element is 10 spell power.

[vryxnr]

Scion of fire is hardly only for fire spec casters. Sure the on hit fire portion is fire only but the only thing it gives a fire caster over anything other element is 10 spell power.

That's... not what she was saying. She's saying that (most) all dps casters take Scion of Fire, regardless of their element focus, because Scion of Fire is the only source of spell crit damage from the scion feats. She's saying it's odd that Scion of Cold doesn't do more for cold damage specced casters, etc. It would make more sense for lightning specced to take Scion of Air for more lightning power, but as it stands right now, any caster doing damage takes Scion of Fire because it's the only one with (universal) spell crit on it.

[Aelonwy]

That's... not what she was saying. She's saying that (most) all dps casters take Scion of Fire, regardless of their element focus, because Scion of Fire is the only source of spell crit damage from the scion feats. She's saying it's odd that Scion of Cold doesn't do more for cold damage specced casters, etc. It would make more sense for lightning specced to take Scion of Air for more lightning power, but as it stands right now, any caster doing damage takes Scion of Fire because it's the only one with (universal) spell crit on it.

On the nose.

[karatemack]

No, Ranks are something placed during level-up and are capped at 23.

Good to know!

I thought feats and skill tomes affected rank but I do see they count as modifiers to the final skill number without affecting rank.

[Nickodeamous]

I am not one for handouts, but i honestly bought a +5 hide tome specifically to increase my hide score so i coulf do more damage from ethereal plane. Since it is pointless to by a hide tome with this change, i think we should get a refund as you are changing something that used to rely on points instead of ranks. Also, while i am at it, i spent x number of legendary mats to get 22 hide.

I know nothing will be done, since everyone is getting the shaft, but it would be a nice goodwill gesture by SSG to:

A. Refund hide tome purchases
B. Provide a free fred token to change out ethereal plane
C. Allow us to overwrite crafted item slots to remove useless abilities (hide 22)

Pretty please!
Nico

[HuneyMunster]

Thanks for the analysis! I'm very interested in ideas to help the new Scion of the Ethereal Plane scale into epics better. If you've got a cool suggestion, let me know! That being said, abilities that scale off of skills have the potential to be increasingly viable as the game progresses, which means that Scion was beginning to eclipse other options - and this problem would only get worse with time. Ideally the Scion feats are equally usable and equally viable, and the key to that is avoiding certain scaling functions that have the potential to increase in effectiveness in an effort to prevent constant redesigning.

I mentioned earlier in a previous post to change "+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 3 points of Hide you have" to "+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 4 points of Hide you have" as an example. This could also be changed from the current 33% of Hide to any other whether is 25% or 30% etc instead of the flat amount. In future would be easier to re-balance as only a percentage that would have to be adjusted instead of entirely how the feat works.

Currently I think the max Hide items are 22 comp, 11 insight, 6 quality (LGS) and 11 exception (Ethereal Gaze Raid item). That's two items required while I already don't consider Ethereal Gaze an item I would use with Scion of the Ethereal Plane taken.

The option for more Hide/Dex skill items with higher bonuses will most probably be released at some point, but so will Deadly/Seeker and Insightful/Quality versions etc and other effects that benefit from the melee power from Scion of Arborea. Deathdefy in an earlier post pointed most of these out.



Off topic Hiding in Plane Sight from Shadowdancer is broken and not giving any bonuses to hide and move silent while standing still in sneak stance. I would think the same is true for the "enemies don't gain Spot bonuses until they get much closer to you, and the bonuses are smaller. " is also bugged.

Would it be possible to reduce cooldown for Shadow Training II even at expenses of Sneak Attack bonus as it will no longer give barbarian sprint speed while sneaking?

[0ldschool]

Why does Scion of the Ethereal give blur (available at lv4 on item) and not lesser displacement (available as early as lvl 10)? Probably not necessary with end game equipment but any reason it doesn't give Ghostly?

I'm quoting Aelonwy for no particular reason other than Blurry was mentioned. I also would like to see Lesser Displacement as part of the Scion. But what I very much want to make sure does not happen is that we lose a concealment bonus from this Scion in a corrupt-a-wish fashion, such as Blurry being replaced with Ghostly. It absolutely should either retain Blurry or improve to Lesser D. One of those must remain. This Scion is very valuable to me in freeing up slots in the endgame gear tetris. I (and surely many others) have gear sets specifically designed around the fact that we will be running in Scion of Ethereal and do not have Blurry or Lesser D slotted. These gearsets would be blown up if a concealment bonus is removed entirely from the Scion. My melee rogue is pummeled to death often enough already, he doesn't need a concealment bonus nerf.

I know it is unlikely that this change (removing Blurry/Lesser D) would happen, but it would be so devastating to me if it did that I felt the need to speak my mind. Thanks for listening.

[Aelonwy]

I'm quoting Aelonwy for no particular reason other than Blurry was mentioned. I also would like to see Lesser Displacement as part of the Scion. But what I very much want to make sure does not happen is that we lose a concealment bonus from this Scion in a corrupt-a-wish fashion, such as Blurry being replaced with Ghostly. It absolutely should either retain Blurry or improve to Lesser D. One of those must remain. This Scion is very valuable to me in freeing up slots in the endgame gear tetris. I (and surely many others) have gear sets specifically designed around the fact that we will be running in Scion of Ethereal and do not have Blurry or Lesser D slotted. These gearsets would be blown up if a concealment bonus is removed entirely from the Scion. My melee rogue is pummeled to death often enough already, he doesn't need a concealment bonus nerf.

I know it is unlikely that this change (removing Blurry/Lesser D) would happen, but it would be so devastating to me if it did that I felt the need to speak my mind. Thanks for listening.

I'm sorry, I was unclear, I meant Ghostly in addition to Blurry or Lesser Displacement not in place of. Its named Scion of the Ethereal so I was trying to brainstorm effects that could give it additional oomph since the snk atk dmg is basically being capped despite other scion feats still scaling with various effects such as Scion of Fire's Spell Crit will continue to improve the more spell power you manage to get. But you're most likely correct to voice displeasure with replacement, corrupt-a-wish is a real thing here.

[0ldschool]

I'm sorry, I was unclear, I meant Ghostly in addition to Blurry or Lesser Displacement not in place of. Its named Scion of the Ethereal so I was trying to brainstorm effects that could give it additional oomph since the snk atk dmg is basically being capped despite other scion feats still scaling with various effects such as Scion of Fire's Spell Crit will continue to improve the more spell power you manage to get. But you're most likely correct to voice displeasure with replacement, corrupt-a-wish is a real thing here.

You're fine and no need for an apology. I knew exactly what you meant. But I see that you understand my fear over the incorrect corrupt-a-wish interpretation that COULD happen here. My post was meant for SSG. :) I think that changing the Scion to Lesser D is actually a really good idea, especially in light of the proposed hard cap on sneak attack damage at 34.

I also wanted to say that the 1.5x cap is too low. I'm just a first life rogue and I easily hit 120 Hide at cap (+40 sneak damage). A cap of at least 1.75*ranks or 2*ranks (+40 , +47 SA damage) seems entirely reasonable and allows us squishy sneak types to retain some of the vital DPS boost that the Scion provides. Do melee rogues really need a DPS nerf? I die often enough as it is.

[UrbanPyro]

Hmmmm, I assume most players will take Fire for the probably too high universal Spell Crit Damage if they're going caster, and/or whatever element matches their primary focus. For Thrower/melee it's probably either Ethereal or Arborea. You're right that there's no Poison one, hmmmm....

::throws idea into hat::

Scion of the Plane of Carceri
+4 to the DCs of Transmutation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
Immunity to poison and diseases (includes mummy rot).
+10 Poison spell power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 poison damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

Carceri=Forgotten Realms. Talona, called the Lady of Poison, Mistress of Disease, and Mother of All Plagues, was the goddess of poison and disease.
Abyss=Eberron-ish. Transmutation could represent the toxicity of the ever changing aspects of the planar aspects.

[Tuxedoman96]

212/190 = 11.6% decrease in SA.

The decrease would be even less, actually. The value you should be about 10.38%. There's 2 ways to get this value;

1) 212-190 = 22 (this is the difference between the old value and the new)
22/212 ~ 0.10377
0.10377 x 100 = 10.377%
Round to nearest hundredth (or tenth if you'd prefer) gives you 10.38%
We have the difference over the initial value because we want to see the amount over change relative to the initial value, not the new one.

2) 190/212 ~ 0.89622
|0.89622 - 1| = 0.10377; -0.10377 if you remove the absolute value sign to express integers
0.10377 x 100 = 10.377%
Round like before
In this case you have the new value over the initial value because you want to describe the change as a ratio that's relative to the old value. Then you subtract 1 from it (one here being = to 100%, so you could do this after the multiplication as long as you are subtract 100 from it afterwards). Absolute value sign because we're just referencing change in general, but if we allow for negative integers, then the change would be -10.38%, i.e. 10.38% decrease.

All changes should always be made relative to the initial value.

[Lynnabel]

Quick draft:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

Thoughts?

[jamkriz]

Quick draft:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

Thoughts?

Seems a bit meh for a Legendary Feat.
Maybe change Blur to Lesser Displacement and add Deception or Improved Deception instead of the Invis Guard?

[J-mann]

Quick draft:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

Thoughts?

A larger nerf than the current one. Even if you had 17 sneak dice (before the additional) and rolled max on all of them it would be 30.8 damage vs the 40.25 the current change is.

Math here:

17×6= (102 + 30 for static sneak damage) × .05 (melee power increase) × 1.5 (sneak melee power multiplyer) = 11.4 + 18×1.075 (for the added mp) = 30.75 So even in the best case scenario you need to make up 10 damage with the 5 extra mp which would require a base damage of 200 for your best case scenario which is doable.

A more reasonable way to go is to look at the averages so redoing the math you get:

(59.5 + 30) × .075 + 10.5 × 1.075 = 18 damage vs 40.25 which requires a whopping 445 base damage to break even vs the original nerf.

[Draxis]

Quick draft:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

Thoughts?

It's pretty easy to slot a Blurry or Lesser Displacement effect by 30th level. I guess it's useful for people who can't. But a 5% stacking concealment would be more universally useful.

[Lynnabel]

It's pretty easy to slot a Blurry or Lesser Displacement effect by 30th level. I guess it's useful for people who can't. But a 5% stacking concealment would be more universally useful.

Probably true. I'm trying to keep as much of the original feat in place as possible.

[Blah2]

I mentioned earlier in a previous post to change "+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 3 points of Hide you have" to "+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 4 points of Hide you have" as an example. This could also be changed from the current 33% of Hide to any other whether is 25% or 30% etc instead of the flat amount. In future would be easier to re-balance as only a percentage that would have to be adjusted instead of entirely how the feat works.

Currently I think the max Hide items are 22 comp, 11 insight, 6 quality (LGS) and 11 exception (Ethereal Gaze Raid item). That's two items required while I already don't consider Ethereal Gaze an item I would use with Scion of the Ethereal Plane taken.

The option for more Hide/Dex skill items with higher bonuses will most probably be released at some point, but so will Deadly/Seeker and Insightful/Quality versions etc and other effects that benefit from the melee power from Scion of Arborea. Deathdefy in an earlier post pointed most of these out.





And when power creep allows to get a hide over 200 your proposal puts the developers in the same predicament. thats what Lynnabel is saying that ethereal scaling with a skill amount rather than a fixed number (23 ranks) is causing the problem.

Lynnabel just cap the sneak attack damage at a number you see balanced/reasonable (I'd like atleast 50 and make sure it is noticeably more than the 35 from the ranks method) and then keep it based on the skill value not ranks. PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

QED

Unless there is some reason 50 SA damage is too much please tell me. If it is because ranger/rogue/ inquisitives are a game balance issue then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE remove SA damage from duel wielding xbow (or atleast make reduced by half or something) users. the more inquisitive nerfs the better :)

[FuzzyDuck81]

Quick draft:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

Thoughts?

iirc D&D effects that let people interact with the ethereal plane generally render them partially intangible rather than just a little harder to see, so some incorporeality miss chance might fit a little better - 10% which stacks with other sources could be a good one? Yeah it could get pretty high for wraiths but you only get one scion & an undead might want shadowfell anyway, so it'd make for a pretty meaningful choice regardless.

another idea could be to have a re-skinned but functionally identical version of the xoriat madness delerium effect (short-term displacement guard)

[Carpone]

Quick draft:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

Thoughts?
Prepare for math.

Scenario:
* DEX-based 20 Rogue Assassin in Legendary Dreadnought.
* At level cap, weapon dmg = 188.37 base avg dmg in reaper. [Assumes +4 DEX from Completionist and racial past lives, and 41 reaper AP spent in Dread Adversary.]
* SA dmg = 131 (35 Rogue levels + 14 Assassin enhancements + 14 Assassin capstone + 10.5 Improved SA feat + 26 Deception + 11 Insightful Deception + 7 Martial Hymn + 3 Rogue PLs + 10.5 Ethereal)
* Crit Dmg = 45 (21 Seeker, 10 Insightful Seeker, 6 LD Critical Damage, 2 Purge the Wicked twist, 6 Guild Ship)
* Dagger Crit Profile: 15-18/x4, 19-20/x6 (Improved Critical, Letahlity, Knife Specialization, Overwhelming Critical, Devastating Critical)
* Melee Power: 235 with Ethereal

Damage Calculation Model: Assume hit on a 4, graze/miss on a 3 against a high AC red/purple named boss:

Roll of 4-14 (188.37 * 3.35 melee power) = 631.0395 avg base dmg per hit
Roll of 15-20:
(4 [crit roll of 15-18] * 188.37 * 3.35 melee power * 4 crit multiplier) +
(2 [crit roll of 19-20] * 188.37 * 3.35 melee power * 6 crit multiplier) +
(4 [crit roll of 15-18] * 45 crit dmg * 3.35 melee power * 4 crit multiplier) +
(2 [crit roll of 19-20] * 45 crit dmg * 3.35 melee power * 6 crit multiplier) = 3648.351 avg base dmg per crit hit

Sneak attack dmg: 131 * 3.35 melee power * 1.5 SA scaling = 656.31 avg SA dmg

Normalizing dmg on a roll of 4-20: 1695.972 base dmg + 656.31 avg SA dmg = 2352 dmg per hit

Without cluttering up this reply any more than needed, plugging in the above calculations with Preview 2 Ethereal the avg dmg per hit is 2437.

TLDR: Your proposal is even more of a nerf than Preview 2. The ancillary bonuses from Ethereal aren't the primary reason people chose Ethereal -- it was the SA dmg.

[SpartanKiller13]

Quick draft:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

Thoughts?

Legendary Feats should be a competitive option (so different builds use different ones, or you can choose to specialize your build).

As such, that draft offers utility (Ghost Touch, skills, etc) but not a ton more. I think you'd need to bump the SA damage a bit to be competitive with Arborea, but even that I'm hesitant to do given 20 MP will scale harder than a flat SA number.

Could it potentially have a stacking Incorporeality bonus? There's a few of those around so the coding is probably in place. I don't know if that's a viable option, but it seems a lot more thematic and balanced than many of the other solutions I've seen. I ask for a stacking bonus because that helps out those who don't have itemized Incorporeality, while also not penalizing those who do (and it presents some interesting options for like a Wraith Form PM, or a Ranger Tempest).

I'd assume that would include Ghost Touch, but if you swapped 10% Incorp stacking in for Blurry I'd call it an excellent option; 5% might need other balancing (or maybe my numbers are too high?).

[Lynnabel]

Prepare for math. snippy snip snip

TLDR: Your proposal is even more of a nerf than Preview 2. The ancillary bonuses from Ethereal aren't the primary reason people chose Ethereal -- it was the SA dmg.

Rad, thanks. I'm well aware that the ancillary stuff is just fluff to the number-crunchers, the additional Ghost Touch wasn't meant as part of the tradeoff from the scaling SA damage. I'm not considering it as part of a numbers balance, just as a fun bonus I can easily slide on in for convenience.

What about 6d6 Sneak Dice? I'm not trying to match where Ethereal was, I'm trying to match where Arborea is. Hmm lemme crunch those numbers, gimme a hot second

Looks like 2407 with 6d6... hmmm

I feel like 6d6 and 5 mp matches Arborea pretty well. Thoughts?

[SerPounce]

Quick draft:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

Thoughts?

Kind of boring. But I guess that's pretty par for the course with all the epic/destiny/scion feats. The good ones are all boring (+ X to Y) and the interesting ones are all bad. Except maybe frog.

[Lynnabel]

Kind of boring. But I guess that's pretty par for the course with all the epic/destiny/scion feats. The good ones are all boring (+ X to Y) and the interesting ones are all bad. Except maybe frog.

I feel that. What interesting ED feat needs help the most, in your opinion?

[Carpone]

I feel like 6d6 and 5 mp matches Arborea pretty well. Thoughts?
Prior to this thread, I had calculated out avg dmg per hit for four Assassin setups:

DEX Arborea: 2420
DEX Ethereal: 2437
INT Arborea: 2468
INT Ethereal: 2483

That's using the Ethereal 34.5 SA from the U45 Preview.

[Kmnh]

Rad, thanks. I'm well aware that the ancillary stuff is just fluff to the number-crunchers, the additional Ghost Touch wasn't meant as part of the tradeoff from the scaling SA damage, just as a bonus. I'm not considering it as part of a tradeoff, just as a fun bonus I can easily slide on in for convenience.

What about 6d6 Sneak Dice? I'm not trying to match where Ethereal was, I'm trying to match where Arborea is. Hmm lemme crunch those numbers, gimme a hot second

Looks like 2407 with 6d6... hmmm

I feel like 6d6 and 5 mp matches Arborea pretty well. Thoughts?

My melees run scion of the plane of earth and a corrosion 138 augment. That's 2d20, times 5 with 400 spell power. 105 average damage.

The 20 prr is what sells it. Maybe add a cool defensive buff to ethereal plane?

How about "while on epic defensive fighting stance, you gain 5% Dodge that bypasses the hard cap"?

[Lynnabel]

Prior to this thread, I had calculated out avg dmg per hit for four Assassin setups:

DEX Arborea: 2420
DEX Ethereal: 2437
INT Arborea: 2468
INT Ethereal: 2483

That's using the Ethereal 34.5 SA from the U45 Preview.

Good stuff. I'm going with 6d6 sneak dice for now (only 0.5% behind Dex Arborea which seems like about as close as I can get it without adding, like, 1 extra sneak attack damage), thanks for the writeup. I really appreciate you taking the time to math this out.

[Blah2]

Good stuff. I'm going with 6d6 sneak dice for now (only 0.5% behind Dex Arborea which seems like about as close as I can get it without adding, like, 1 extra sneak attack damage), thanks for the writeup. I really appreciate you taking the time to math this out.

Lynn you are genuinely the most outgoing Dev I have ever seen in 13+ years of MMO gaming online. Thank you

[Lynnabel]

Lynn you are genuinely the most outgoing Dev I have ever seen in 13+ years of MMO gaming online. Thank you

Comments like this really genuinely make my day, thank you :)

[Carpone]

Ghostly instead of Ghost Touch would be more desirable, since Ghostly sources are quite limited while Ghost Touch is quite common.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Scaling damage based on a skill is problematic from the perspective of balance, but I want "skill scaling" damage to come back in some form. I'll make my case...

"Skill scaling" is thematic and restrictive. Gearing hide provides a real trade-off between classes, builds, and stats. Unique hide bonuses are a fun party buff, that felt meaningful. It makes us look at existing gear with stats and say---how does this work out?

That's precisely what makes the old feat fun---and gearing fun. When new systems integrate old systems in creative ways, the game feels deeper. Path of Exile "unique items" are like this. Most POE uniques aren't powerful by themselves---but they are build defining, and allow you to do something goofy.

I would rather we preserve the old scaling and nerf it heavily---while changing Arborea to scale with a STR skill. I think the other scion feats could scale stronger with their respective spell powers---as well as their corollaries in sentient sets. Perhaps they could even provide penalties to melee/ranged power, inorder to compensate for their flavor and strength working synergistically. I know this sounds like a puzzle... ...but its a flavorful puzzle, and we like flavorful puzzles.

[LeoLionxxx]

I feel that. What interesting ED feat needs help the most, in your opinion?

Spirit blades (https://ddowiki.com/page/Spirit_Blades) is a pretty cool spell, but extremely slow to cast. If that cast time were reduced, it might be a more viable option for a dps caster. The damage felt fine when I found myself using it, but I didn't have much to compare it to.

[Rauven]

So the feat would become:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+6d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

I can deal with that. I really appreciate you taking another look at this and taking player feedback into consideration. I have to say, though, Lesser Displacement instead of Blurry would be so sweet.

[Lynnabel]

I have to say, though, Lesser Displacement instead of Blurry would be so sweet.

Ugh, my one weakness, polite feedback! I suppose I'll tone it up to Lesser Displacement - if you insist :P

[CeltEireson]

Ugh, my one weakness, polite feedback! I suppose I'll tone it up to Lesser Displacement - if you insist :P

Your one weakness? oh come on, everyone has at least two!

[Mindos]

Quick draft:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

Thoughts?

Is it double secret probabtion stacking blur? Like, I have blur, and this Legendary feat makes it so the mobs have been drinking, so I got blur again? Just go ahead and make it "You have permanent Displacement 50%"

[FlavoredSoul]

I feel that. What interesting ED feat needs help the most, in your opinion?

Great Ability feels really lame, burning a feat for +1 to a stat (especially when we have triple digit stats as the new norm) which doesn't even give a bonus if you're on an odd number, I feel like even if it was +2 to a stat it would rarely ever be picked except by DC casters.

Epic mage armor is basically never picked because it's quickly made redundant by basically any non-robe armor in epics, only cloth armor has a bonus low enough to get any benefit from Epic mage armor (legendary Barovian noble robes has +15, Disciple of the Dawn has +19 and outfit of the celestial guardian has +20) and even if you're a robes wearer, are you going to burn an epic feat on a couple of AC?

Post-nerf Hellball is just straight up worse than Meteor Swarm, 9th level spell is better than a epic feat that requires level 28?

When the mobs save fails it takes fire, electric, acid, and sonic damage, when it succeeds the save the enemy takes half fire, electric, acid, sonic, and cold damage (still less damage total on the save but not half because the cold hit is not present when they fail the save)

For starters how about adding the cold damage even when they fail the save, an extra 3d20 +15 as a reward for having good DCs would be a nice start. also maybe the projectile could move like 20% faster, if not just make it into a fireball style projectile, on live it's this tiny little glitter that moves *extremely slow*.

[Mindos]

Prior to this thread, I had calculated out avg dmg per hit for four Assassin setups:

DEX Arborea: 2420
DEX Ethereal: 2437
INT Arborea: 2468
INT Ethereal: 2483

That's using the Ethereal 34.5 SA from the U45 Preview.

I'm dumb and I'd love to see the math. I think you're right, for sure! But I want to see/have a reference of how we got these numbers.

[Blah2]

Scaling damage based on a skill is problematic from the perspective of balance, ... .

Enough said

[SerPounce]

I feel that. What interesting ED feat needs help the most, in your opinion?
That's a great question!

So first I'd say that all the lvl 29 ED feats that are not named "dire charge" are in a tough place because dire charge is an essential part of a huge number of builds (it's so good even some non-melee builds take it). Giving some flexibility for when you can take them would help out there. It's also just too rigid a system for "feats." Feats should a list of options to take for customization, not a linear power increase (that's what class/destiny advancement is for).

specifically Forced escape, guardian angel, and spirit blades are all some combination of too clunky, to specific, too long a cool down, or just poorly scaled. I get that scaling is tough, but cooldowns are something that you guys can just put unreasonable numbers on sometimes. Three minutes is an age of the earth the way this game is generally played. A *defensive* ability with a three minute cooldown would need to be a pretty massive effect, not a ~5% increase in total effective defense for a few seconds.

Personally I'd love for arcane warrior to be more useful, but in addition to the dire charge issue, +1 MP per offensive spell with a 6 second stack loss is a lot of offensive spells . More than any gish is likely to be casting. You get the spellpower stacks up, but 20 SP on a gish is only meh:
I'd say
+10 MP/RP for ten seconds (no stacks) after casting an offensive spell

+1% spell crit chance per melee attack with no cap on the next (single) spell you cast (within say 10 seconds). So you can do a bunch of melee attacks then blast one auto-crit spell.

In addition to taking it on lvl 26/28/29 not just 29 because of said dire charge issue.

[apocaladle]

I feel that. What interesting ED feat needs help the most, in your opinion?

Spirit Blades: Super cool, but super slow and pretty useless.

Make it have a standard cast time and enable quicken.

Also Epic Mage armor: Dunno how to fix this but its just flat AC and doesn't scale at all as updates bring more power. Maybe have it scale off your stats?

Eg.
+25 Armor bonus to AC
+10% AC
+10 PRR

[Xgya]

I feel that. What interesting ED feat needs help the most, in your opinion?

That's a pretty hard question. Choosing one is hard.

Epic Skill Focuses are definitely underwhelming, but not my top spot. You could remove them entirely from the ED feat list and make Great (insert stat) epic feats replace them, but give bonuses to all skills related to that stat as well as the +1. They'd STILL feel underwhelming, but at least the list would be less clunky.

Epic Spell Power are also underwhelming. Give those some other spell-related bonus (no crit or crit damage, though, the balance there is quite delicate. Maybe a stacking mana cost reduction every time you cast a spell of the associated element? Sustain and dedication to an element)

Arcane Warrior takes too long to get too little a benefit. You need to either hand out most of the bonus all at once, or give at least part of the bonus a way to stack much higher than it currently does. Somebody suggested the arcane warrior magic buff should only affect the next spell but give a substantially larger buff, and I think it's a neat idea. I think most arcane warriors either use spells as finishers, or to start the fight and soften every target before wading in. Casting an offensive spell should grant some form of damage buff for a short duration, while hitting with a weapon could grant a stacking spell power scaling to the next spell cast. That sounds like a lot, but if it's only a single spell cast before you need to fight for a while to gather power again, it seems reasonable.

All of the above ARE indeed underwhelming, but not to the point of my actual first place: Epic Mage Armor.

This epic-powered feat only gives +5 AC to anyone wearing end-game cloth robes (+15 enhancement), no need to even MENTION actual armor.

[noinfo]

Probably true. I'm trying to keep as much of the original feat in place as possible.

Then make it lesser displacement 30% better than item but does not bump displacement to 55%

[noinfo]

Rad, thanks. I'm well aware that the ancillary stuff is just fluff to the number-crunchers, the additional Ghost Touch wasn't meant as part of the tradeoff from the scaling SA damage. I'm not considering it as part of a numbers balance, just as a fun bonus I can easily slide on in for convenience.

What about 6d6 Sneak Dice? I'm not trying to match where Ethereal was, I'm trying to match where Arborea is. Hmm lemme crunch those numbers, gimme a hot second

Looks like 2407 with 6d6... hmmm

I feel like 6d6 and 5 mp matches Arborea pretty well. Thoughts?

The concept is ethereal then bypassing defenses would be more appropriate
SA since its always been there
but instead of mp having a bypass like -5 or 10 to targets prr and AC and or fortification.

[noinfo]

I feel that. What interesting ED feat needs help the most, in your opinion?

Hellball- should be easy not sure when the last time I ever saw one used
Spirit Blade- same as above animation and cooldown are rediculous
First Blood- add +2 to assassinate
Elusive Target- using a defensive stance doubles it
Holy Strike- add good damage to weapon
Epic Mage Armor- change type
Spell Powers prob could have added 2% crit chance if taken a second time

[niknight]

Regarding Hellball, would it be possible to make something comparable to Energy Burst. Have it deal 1d3 +3 acid, cold, fire, electric, sonic per caster level (making it essentially 1d15 + 15)?

[Hipparan]

Hellball- should be easy not sure when the last time I ever saw one used
Spirit Blade- same as above animation and cooldown are rediculous
First Blood- add +2 to assassinate
Elusive Target- using a defensive stance doubles it
Holy Strike- add good damage to weapon
Epic Mage Armor- change type
Spell Powers prob could have added 2% crit chance if taken a second time

I certainly agree with Hellball and Spirit Blade. I'd like to see Hellball's cost reduced or turn it into a SLA for metamagic's sake. Basically the same with Spirit Blade. Either that or scale them with caster level so that they're competitive with Meteor Swarm, Thunderstroke, etc.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Quick draft:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

Thoughts?

Could we get ghostly instead of ghost touch?

and just so I understand, this would no longer have any connection to the hide skill?

[droid327]

Scion of Summoning

Summons have no role in the game right now at all, let alone endgame. This could be reworked for a playstyle that's currently unsupported by a specific scion - ranged? Hybrid caster-martial? THF? Healing?

[SpartanKiller13]

I feel that. What interesting ED feat needs help the most, in your opinion?

Legendary feat: Scion of Mechanus - it has Fort Bypass which I keep looking at, but I just can't justify it on a fleshy toon. I guess that's sorta the point, but if it was 15-20% it would be worth taking on more builds. As such, I don't think I've ever seen it taken despite it being a cool-looking feat (you could build around getting Reconstruct as an SLA).

ED feat: Forced Escape - it doesn't do the escape part, and it's a really bad DPS spell.
2nd vote: Guardian Angel - I haven't even seen any tanks who take this.
3rd vote: Spirit Blades - slow cast time and slow travel time = everyone grabs Arcane Pulse instead.

[Ovrad]

Ugh, my one weakness, polite feedback!

Wait, hold on, wasn't your one weakness cookies? *squinty eyes*

[thunir]

Quick draft:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
+3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

Thoughts?

that scales with Null in line with the other Arcane imbues?

It would be consistent with Alchemist.

[Hipparan]

that scales with Null in line with the other Arcane imbues?

It would be consistent with Alchemist.

As much as I like the idea of introducing more spellpower-increased damage, Evil damage is radiance and not nullification, and only nullification items add poison spellpower. Any abilities that specifically grant negative spellpower don't additionally grant poison spellpower.

[DRoark]

... Arborea ...

Can we get a Scion of Ehlonna?

I'd like to petition the Planar Ranger Diety to get our 20% back. We're back in the pre-Ravenloft DPS stone-age now.
We (artificer and mechanic) literally can't keep up with the damage our BARD is putting out, and he's doing actual AOE's.

We couldn't really before, but it's just that much worse now.

---------------------------------------------------------------

No more subs until retracted, Ranged of the World Unite!

[Lynnabel]

Can we get a Scion of Ehlonna?

No new Scions in this update, sorry.

Unrelated, but if you'd like to set a forum signature, I believe it's somewhere in the user settings?

[DRoark]

No new Scions in this update, sorry.

Unrelated, but if you'd like to set a forum signature, I believe it's somewhere in the user settings?

I got a little lazy, but I tossed one in. )

I'm just hoping they actually fix my class someday. It's really not worth playing now, though I did like it.

[FlavoredSoul]

We (artificer and mechanic) literally can't keep up with the damage our BARD is putting out, and he's doing actual AOE's.


Sure repeater artis and rangers may be really far behind in terms of dps, but mechanics are certainly not. mechanic builds using 18 rog 2 art, or a deeper arti splash for fusilade are DPS beasts and even losing dps from rapid reload and IPS mechanic will still be queen of ranged dps (the king being inquisitive of course), after U45 I expect those rolls to be reversed with mechanic pulling ahead of inquisitive as it's only getting hit in two departs compared to everything about inquisitive getting the bat.

unless you're playing repeating mechanic in which case... don't.

[DRoark]

Sure repeater artis and rangers may be really far behind in terms of dps...

I'm an arti usually, and I know from testing my DPS went down the crapper (almost a 28% loss over 10 parses). The mechanic did his own.