Balance the game, and make it a challenge again.

[fatherpirate]

This thread has exceeding it's usefulness.
Time to move on.

[Clemeit]

I hear a lot of
"don't balance it based on Reapers"
"don't balance it based on HCL"
and so on.

so you just don't want balance?
you like having your favorite OP build just the way it is?
That is your opinion. It is not everyone's opinion.

Going to stop reading right there. This post is based on the premise that some large subset of players doesn't want the game to be "balanced" which in my experience is simply untrue. Much of the unrest on the forums lately is centered around the notion that the developers are making game-wide decisions based on HCL feedback and data analysis - stemming mainly from the removal of Ship Buffs and the addition of a casting timer to the Sharn Boarding Pass. Whether or not this is true, it's very easy to see why balancing the game on HCL or on Reaper difficulty could upset players who don't participate in those activities. One might also argue that those activities don't necessary translate well to the average player's experience.

If you'd like to post a thread outlining balancing suggestions aimed at making the game more challenging (assuming adhering to these rules would be voluntary, since I'm sure many players already find the game challenging enough) then I'm all ears. But starting off the post with a straw man argument to augment your position is a weak ploy that deserves little attention.

[redoubt]

I hear a lot of
"don't balance it based on Reapers"
"don't balance it based on HCL"
and so on.

so you just don't want balance?
you like having your favorite OP build just the way it is?
That is your opinion. It is not everyone's opinion.

I will personally champion balancing the game on ... NORMAL DUNGEON LEVEL.

ANYTHING that makes a normal dungeon level a cake walk needs to be nerfed out of existence.

It is a perfect solution. You say the game is too easy?
Make normal a challenge, if that is not good enough...go in on hard...with a party, eliminate Reapers as unnecessary.

So what kinda nerfs we talking about to make normal a challenge?

No guild ship buffs, at all (services like mail are ok)
No Hirelings
No store buffs
No advanced levels (everyone start at 1)
No universal enhancement trees
No reincarnation
No past lives
No exp. potions or tomes
etc..

Return DDO to AD+D

Don't like that idea? tough
It is just as good as everyone else's idea.

THE POINT
For every endgame player desperately trying to protect their personal
exploit ridden OP character, there are guys like me who would like those
kind of unbalanced characters REMOVED.

Congrats! They made a whole new server for you. Enjoy HCL. Truly. Enjoy. I'm glad that it exists within DDO and it makes more options for more people to play their playstyle.




and to put my money were my mouth is, I will now expose and often use exploit
that needs to be removed.

Hey, developers: You know that spell/scroll flame arrow?
They should disappear after you log out, if you put them in the bank, THEY DON'T.

Players have been exploiting this by having one toon make a ton of disposable flame ammo
and storing in the bank so their other characters can 'withdraw' a bunch of it at will.
The ammo needs to vaporize when stored in a bank.

1 exploit gone.

Lol.

1. If you shoot arrows/bolts etc, you can, most likely cast the wand of flame arrow yourself.
2. If the flame arrow damage is not reduced to zero, you are not playing a difficulty setting where bothering with any exploit would be even remotely worth the time and effort.

[Strider1963]

I hear a lot of
"don't balance it based on Reapers"
"don't balance it based on HCL"
and so on.

so you just don't want balance?
you like having your favorite OP build just the way it is?
That is your opinion. It is not everyone's opinion.

I will personally champion balancing the game on ... NORMAL DUNGEON LEVEL.

ANYTHING that makes a normal dungeon level a cake walk needs to be nerfed out of existence.

It is a perfect solution. You say the game is too easy?
Make normal a challenge, if that is not good enough...go in on hard...with a party, eliminate Reapers as unnecessary.

So what kinda nerfs we talking about to make normal a challenge?

No guild ship buffs, at all (services like mail are ok)
No Hirelings
No store buffs
No advanced levels (everyone start at 1)
No universal enhancement trees
No reincarnation
No past lives
No exp. potions or tomes
etc..

Return DDO to AD+D

Don't like that idea? tough
It is just as good as everyone else's idea.

THE POINT
For every endgame player desperately trying to protect their personal
exploit ridden OP character, there are guys like me who would like those
kind of unbalanced characters REMOVED.

and to put my money were my mouth is, I will now expose and often use exploit
that needs to be removed.

Hey, developers: You know that spell/scroll flame arrow?
They should disappear after you log out, if you put them in the bank, THEY DON'T.

Players have been exploiting this by having one toon make a ton of disposable flame ammo
and storing in the bank so their other characters can 'withdraw' a bunch of it at will.
The ammo needs to vaporize when stored in a bank.

1 exploit gone.

What have you been smokin dude? Must be REAL good stuff!

[HungarianRhapsody]

I hear a lot of
"don't balance it based on Reapers"
"don't balance it based on HCL"
and so on.

so you just don't want balance?
you like having your favorite OP build just the way it is?
That is your opinion. It is not everyone's opinion.

I will personally champion balancing the game on ... NORMAL DUNGEON LEVEL.

ANYTHING that makes a normal dungeon level a cake walk needs to be nerfed out of existence.

It is a perfect solution. You say the game is too easy?
Make normal a challenge, if that is not good enough...go in on hard...with a party, eliminate Reapers as unnecessary.

So what kinda nerfs we talking about to make normal a challenge?

No guild ship buffs, at all (services like mail are ok)
No Hirelings
No store buffs
No advanced levels (everyone start at 1)
No universal enhancement trees
No reincarnation
No past lives
No exp. potions or tomes
etc..

Return DDO to AD+D

Don't like that idea? tough
It is just as good as everyone else's idea.

THE POINT
For every endgame player desperately trying to protect their personal
exploit ridden OP character, there are guys like me who would like those
kind of unbalanced characters REMOVED.

and to put my money were my mouth is, I will now expose and often use exploit
that needs to be removed.

Hey, developers: You know that spell/scroll flame arrow?
They should disappear after you log out, if you put them in the bank, THEY DON'T.

Players have been exploiting this by having one toon make a ton of disposable flame ammo
and storing in the bank so their other characters can 'withdraw' a bunch of it at will.
The ammo needs to vaporize when stored in a bank.

1 exploit gone.

If you want challenge because you think the game is too easy, there are an enormous number of things that YOU can do to make the game more challenging for YOU.

Please don't ask for changes to screw with the game to make it less fun for other people when you can ALREADY do do that for yourself. I guarantee you can make DDO harder than you can handle, no matter how good a player you are and no matter what level range you're at.

Also, Flame Arrow? Really? *THAT* is your "exploit"? Really?

You're not even going to say Fire Caves?

[Ashlayna]

I hear a lot of
"don't balance it based on Reapers"
"don't balance it based on HCL"
and so on.

so you just don't want balance?
you like having your favorite OP build just the way it is?
That is your opinion. It is not everyone's opinion.

I will personally champion balancing the game on ... NORMAL DUNGEON LEVEL.

ANYTHING that makes a normal dungeon level a cake walk needs to be nerfed out of existence.

It is a perfect solution. You say the game is too easy?
Make normal a challenge, if that is not good enough...go in on hard...with a party, eliminate Reapers as unnecessary.

So what kinda nerfs we talking about to make normal a challenge?

No guild ship buffs, at all (services like mail are ok)
No Hirelings
No store buffs
No advanced levels (everyone start at 1)
No universal enhancement trees
No reincarnation
No past lives
No exp. potions or tomes
etc..

Return DDO to AD+D

Don't like that idea? tough
It is just as good as everyone else's idea.

THE POINT
For every endgame player desperately trying to protect their personal
exploit ridden OP character, there are guys like me who would like those
kind of unbalanced characters REMOVED.

and to put my money were my mouth is, I will now expose and often use exploit
that needs to be removed.

Hey, developers: You know that spell/scroll flame arrow?
They should disappear after you log out, if you put them in the bank, THEY DON'T.

Players have been exploiting this by having one toon make a ton of disposable flame ammo
and storing in the bank so their other characters can 'withdraw' a bunch of it at will.
The ammo needs to vaporize when stored in a bank.

1 exploit gone.

So here's what you do: Roll up a Ranger, FvS or Druid, and don't run anything but AA. Then take a look at what U45 is going to do to you in the low level range, and come back and talk about being challenged. My melee FvS had an easier time on Snowy Korthos than my Ranger going for AA. Hey, there's a thought, run Snowy Korthos instead of jumping straight to your bank for your twink gear and guild buffs, I know that's what I do. Maybe it's too hard? In fact, I didn't even have lowbie twink gear, until KotB. It was dropping so much out of the gate that I couldn't get away from it.

COUNTERPOINT: For every guy like you, that gets severe ***** envy at the sight of someone clearing something faster, or more efficiently than you can, there are guys like me, that play the things I like, and hate when "balance" means "nuke it from orbit, and likely not damage the intended target as much as the rest of the playstyle", which is exactly what U45 is, so far. "Welp, we need to nerf Inquis, so we'll just cut the entirety of the ranged playstyle off at the knees, that should do it".

Point of order: Posting exploits on the forum is supposed to be frowned upon. Maybe they'll let you slide because of your "flexibility"?

[Oghma_Infinium]

Congrats! They made a whole new server for you. Enjoy HCL. Truly. Enjoy. I'm glad that it exists within DDO and it makes more options for more people to play their playstyle.

.

Oh no !! ,)
there're only VIP DDO-shopping Inquisitors.
He might fall totally paranoid , there.


Seriously , as F2P with few packs, HN at CharLvl + 4 (Lvl 15 quest on HN with toon lvl11) first lifer solo is quite easy.
so I see his point.
And most VIPs/reaper's/completionists I encounter are *#*#* condescending

[Drunkendex]

So here's what you do: Roll up a Ranger, FvS or Druid, and don't run anything but AA. Then take a look at what U45 is going to do to you in the low level range, and come back and talk about being challenged. My melee FvS had an easier time on Snowy Korthos than my Ranger going for AA. Hey, there's a thought, run Snowy Korthos instead of jumping straight to your bank for your twink gear and guild buffs, I know that's what I do. Maybe it's too hard? In fact, I didn't even have lowbie twink gear, until KotB. It was dropping so much out of the gate that I couldn't get away from it.

Errrr WAT!?

I steamrolled through HE snowy Korthos on AA ranger with no twink gear...

Only time I had issues with Korthos was when I was new f2p player, after that and getting to know those quests by running them 2-3 times they became fairly easy (unless I decide to go Leeroy Jenkins style)

[HungarianRhapsody]

Oh no !! ,)
there're only VIP DDO-shopping Inquisitors.
He might fall totally paranoid , there.


Seriously , as F2P with few packs, HN at CharLvl + 4 (Lvl 15 quest on HN with toon lvl11) first lifer solo is quite easy.
so I see his point.
And most VIPs/reaper's/completionists I encounter are *#*#* condescending

That's the best part of DDO, though. If it's too hard for you, you can adjust the difficulty level down.

If it's too easy, you can adjust the difficulty level upward.

There's no need to take away features that people enjoy just because you think the game is too easy at one level - just adjust the difficulty level up or don't use that feature if you think it makes the game too easy.


And if you are concerned that other people using those features will make the game too easy when you're in a group, just wait until the next HC season starts. Everyone will be gone from the server and you won't find groups at all, so that problem is solved!

[Oghma_Infinium]

That's the best part of DDO, though. If it's too hard for you, you can adjust the difficulty level down.

If it's too easy, you can adjust the difficulty level upward.

There's no need to take away features that people enjoy just because you think the game is too easy at one level - just adjust the difficulty level up or don't use that feature if you think it makes the game too easy.


And if you are concerned that other people using those features will make the game too easy when you're in a group, just wait until the next HC season starts. Everyone will be gone from the server and you won't find groups at all, so that problem is solved!

I only regret to not be allowed to enter the Vale of Twilight, EveningStar and other quest lvl16+ with my main toon lvl 11 right now.
(and I have no Universal Tree)

Honestly , I fear that i do not need to wait that long to not find LFM. So, what 's your point ?
When I kindly propose guildies to do a quest (mostly Assault-like quest) , if I ever get a negative answer , I'm marvellously surprised

[Ashlayna]

Errrr WAT!?

I steamrolled through HE snowy Korthos on AA ranger with no twink gear...

Only time I had issues with Korthos was when I was new f2p player, after that and getting to know those quests by running them 2-3 times they became fairly easy (unless I decide to go Leeroy Jenkins style)

Next time HCL is open, run over and hit it with an AA, see how effective you are when you're losing your Archer's Focus because the mob you built it up on died and you moved to the next one. I don't claim it to be hard, HE Korthos is the only Korthos I've ever run, since I went VIP, anyway. But it's far from a snooze fest, especially if you're running solo w/out hires. It is, however, a complete snooze fest if you come out of the tutorial, and run straight to your guild ship for buffs, even just the amenity bar. I can completely trivialize it now, since all my toons can roll up at level 7, been that way for years, as are a lot of people here. However, coming off a TR, you can make it more interesting if you don't go straight for your stash. The FvS, going melee, had cleave by the time I got to Misery's Peak. It had a much easier time than the ranger going AA, both running Snowy, off a TR. The FvS is only on it's second life, too. So much for the "easier access to AoE" touted by one of the devs for the nerf to IPS...

[Drunkendex]

Next time HCL is open, run over and hit it with an AA, see how effective you are when you're losing your Archer's Focus because the mob you built it up on died and you moved to the next one. I don't claim it to be hard, HE Korthos is the only Korthos I've ever run, since I went VIP, anyway. But it's far from a snooze fest, especially if you're running solo w/out hires. It is, however, a complete snooze fest if you come out of the tutorial, and run straight to your guild ship for buffs, even just the amenity bar. I can completely trivialize it now, since all my toons can roll up at level 7, been that way for years, as are a lot of people here. However, coming off a TR, you can make it more interesting if you don't go straight for your stash. The FvS, going melee, had cleave by the time I got to Misery's Peak. It had a much easier time than the ranger going AA, both running Snowy, off a TR. The FvS is only on it's second life, too. So much for the "easier access to AoE" touted by one of the devs for the nerf to IPS...

First I'm premium.

Second IIRC I mentioned I don't rely on archer focus.

Third, if you're having trouble on Korthos and Maraud the mines, and I don't (while having 150-200 latency at all times) I wanna know what do we do differently.

EDIT2: I finally realized it, why you have issues there and I don't, you're standing in one spot too much (requirement for Archer Focus stack building, and main reason I don't rely on it)

Fourth I never ran FvS, don't plan anytime soon (although I did favor unlock on it).

And I could go lament that my G-axe barb is having much easier time on mob heavy quests than my ranger had (by your FvS vs AA ranger comparisons), but has issues on quests where mobs like to inflict cripple/hamstring.

One thing I LOVE at DnD and DDO is that not all classes are same, some are better at something and some are worse.

And congrats, i planned to roll Shadar-Kai Vistani next life on my main, but gonna do Elf AA ranger, just to prove you overreact.

To post video 3rd time or not, that is the question.

EDIT: By love of everything Unholy i'm gonna post it...

Playerbase reactions to announced changes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9AM9oWgEnQ

[SuperNiCd]

I will personally champion balancing the game on ... NORMAL DUNGEON LEVEL.

ANYTHING that makes a normal dungeon level a cake walk needs to be nerfed out of existence.

It is a perfect solution. You say the game is too easy?
Make normal a challenge, if that is not good enough...go in on hard...with a party, eliminate Reapers as unnecessary.


My hunch is that there's probably still a place for normal difficulty as-is, for the very casual player. Those players are probably not well represented here on the forums, because they are too casual to spend time reading the forums.

[fatherpirate]

this space for rent

[myliftkk_v2]

So what kinda nerfs we talking about to make normal a challenge?

No guild ship buffs, at all (services like mail are ok)
No Hirelings
No store buffs
No advanced levels (everyone start at 1)
No universal enhancement trees
No reincarnation
No past lives
No exp. potions or tomes
etc..

Return DDO to AD+D

Having started in this game with none of that stuff, you could remove all of it except maybe hirelings for lever pulling and normal still would be a cakewalk. If you take away hirelings, congratulations, people will consolidate into builds that dance through normal.

Running a pale trapper on normal without any of those things and you wouldn't even break a sweat.

Normal wouldn't be any harder, but meeting SSG's budget targets sure would be, hah!

[Ashlayna]

First I'm premium.

Second IIRC I mentioned I don't rely on archer focus.

Third, if you're having trouble on Korthos and Maraud the mines, and I don't (while having 150-200 latency at all times) I wanna know what do we do differently.

EDIT2: I finally realized it, why you have issues there and I don't, you're standing in one spot too much (requirement for Archer Focus stack building, and main reason I don't rely on it)

Fourth I never ran FvS, don't plan anytime soon (although I did favor unlock on it).

And I could go lament that my G-axe barb is having much easier time on mob heavy quests than my ranger had (by your FvS vs AA ranger comparisons), but has issues on quests where mobs like to inflict cripple/hamstring.

One thing I LOVE at DnD and DDO is that not all classes are same, some are better at something and some are worse.

And congrats, i planned to roll Shadar-Kai Vistani next life on my main, but gonna do Elf AA ranger, just to prove you overreact.

To post video 3rd time or not, that is the question.

EDIT: By love of everything Unholy i'm gonna post it...

Playerbase reactions to announced changes:


It's interesting to me that I cite Maraud the Mines as an example of where the nerfs to Archer's Focus apply, and you come back with "if you're struggling"? I'm making the same argument concerning Archer's Focus on Korthos, and you come back with "if you're struggling".

So, I'm going to break this down for you, with cool links to follow and descriptions of what they're doing, so that instead of assuming someone is struggling with content, you can understand that they are cutting all ranged players off at the knees, because while all Inquis players are ranged, not all ranged players are using Inquis:

Precise Shot (https://ddowiki.com/page/Precise_Shot)



Precise Shot
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot
Description
With the Precise Shot feat, your targeted ranged attacks pass through friend and foe alike to strike your target (no damage will be done other than to your target). This feat also grants you the Offensive Ranged Stance Archer's Focus, which lets you deal progressively more damage with ranged attacks while standing still.
Notes
Without this feat your ranged attack projectiles attempt to hit the first enemy they collide with along their trajectory.
A Ranger gets this feat for free at level 4, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.
An Artificer may select this feat as one of his artificer bonus feats.
A Fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

This is the current iteration, the only part of this that remains true after U45, currently, is that you only damage your intended target. That you don't use this feat tells me that when you're playing ranged, you hit a lot of mobs that you don't intend to hit in areas where mobs can, and will, wander into your line of fire, so in my example of Maraud the Mines, if a gnoll wanders into your line of fire while you're attacking one of the casters in their perches, you have drawn additional aggro onto yourself.



Archer's Focus
Usage: Active
Prerequisite: Granted when you gain Precise Shot.
Description
Offensive Ranged Stance: If you are not currently using the Manyshot ability and have been stationary for 3 seconds, while you are wielding ranged or thrown weapons, you gain On Damage: up to once every half second, you gain +3 Ranged Power. This effect can stack up to 15 times.
Notes
The stacks decay at a rate of one per 3 seconds while moving, not attacking with ranged weapons, or during Manyshot. These make the stack stop building, but do not clear it.
This can stack up to 25 times with the Improved Archer's Focus enhancement.

This is the iteration proposed in U45:


Archer's Focus has been redesigned: Offensive Ranged Stance: This stance grants power to those who focus their attacks on a single target. Once per second, attacking a foe with a Ranged weapon will grant you a stack of Archer's Focus: +3 Competence Bonus to Ranged Power that lasts for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to 15 times by attacking the same target. Attacking a different target with a Ranged Weapon will reset your stacks of this effect.

Note: Instead of one stack every 1/2 second, the same way it's worked since it was added to the game, it's every second. Note as well that instead of a gradual decay, it's now just gone. Hooray, you can move while using it, except that, unless you're on a raid boss, or maybe a champ, and you've got time to move around, you're doing it wrong. This isn't a change to xbows, or Inquis. This is a change to every build in the game that does any commitment to ranged, and is something that, if you're not using it on a ranged toon, and don't have IPS to replace it, you should reroll to a mage, or a melee class, because you're seriously gimping yourself, at least in the current meta.

This doesn't have anything to do with "struggling with content", this is being cut off at the knees because one enhancement tree is overperforming. Seriously, if you're not using this on a dedicated ranged toon in the current meta, you're making the rest of us look bad.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I hear a lot of
"don't balance it based on Reapers"
"don't balance it based on HCL"
and so on.

so you just don't want balance?
you like having your favorite OP build just the way it is?
That is your opinion. It is not everyone's opinion.

I will personally champion balancing the game on ... NORMAL DUNGEON LEVEL.

ANYTHING that makes a normal dungeon level a cake walk needs to be nerfed out of existence.

It is a perfect solution. You say the game is too easy?
Make normal a challenge, if that is not good enough...go in on hard...with a party, eliminate Reapers as unnecessary.

So what kinda nerfs we talking about to make normal a challenge?

No guild ship buffs, at all (services like mail are ok)
No Hirelings
No store buffs
No advanced levels (everyone start at 1)
No universal enhancement trees
No reincarnation
No past lives
No exp. potions or tomes
etc..

Return DDO to AD+D

Don't like that idea? tough
It is just as good as everyone else's idea.

THE POINT
For every endgame player desperately trying to protect their personal
exploit ridden OP character, there are guys like me who would like those
kind of unbalanced characters REMOVED.

and to put my money were my mouth is, I will now expose and often use exploit
that needs to be removed.

Hey, developers: You know that spell/scroll flame arrow?
They should disappear after you log out, if you put them in the bank, THEY DON'T.

Players have been exploiting this by having one toon make a ton of disposable flame ammo
and storing in the bank so their other characters can 'withdraw' a bunch of it at will.
The ammo needs to vaporize when stored in a bank.

1 exploit gone.

AD&D has reincarnation even though 3E and after don’t. Human dual classing looked very much like DDO reincarnation

[Lynnabel]

This is the iteration proposed in U45:

Worth noting that we're iterating on Archer's Focus, as seen in the post right here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/511406-Some-notes-about-balance-changes?p=6282933&viewfull=1#post6282933) :) if you'd like to make sure you're 100% up to date, reminder that the Lamannia dev tracker is its own place, separate from the regular dev tracker. Hope this helps!

[Ashlayna]

Worth noting that we're iterating on Archer's Focus, as seen in the post right here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/511406-Some-notes-about-balance-changes?p=6282933&viewfull=1#post6282933) :) if you'd like to make sure you're 100% up to date, reminder that the Lamannia dev tracker is its own place, separate from the regular dev tracker. Hope this helps!

Thanks, but I'd already read that, and there are no numbers to provide any feedback on, especially in context with the conversation. Therefore, I used what is available. You may have noticed that I'm all over the place posting about this, and there's a reason, I play a lot of non-conventional builds that use bows. The running joke in my guild is that I can make an AA out of anything, and they're still challenging me to do a cleric. The only Wiz, for example, that I've had to 20 was an AA. So when I'm looking at these changes, I see net losses, and what I see actual numbers for is all I can comment on. When the next notes go live, I'll be commenting on them too; good, bad or indifferent. I have a vested interest in this, because I have toons that are going for non-conventional AAs, FvS, Druid/Ranger split, and ranged in general, such as mech/arti and arti. Inquis did not exist when I started these builds, and frankly, I'm playing one now, but despite the hoopla, it hasn't inspired me to either create an alt just to play it, or to replace any of my current plans. Maybe it would, if it wasn't lvl 10, but as of now, nope, so I'm not overly concerned about what happens to it, except where what happens to it kneecaps all of my other builds.

[Drunkendex]

Thanks, but I'd already read that, and there are no numbers to provide any feedback on, especially in context with the conversation. Therefore, I used what is available. You may have noticed that I'm all over the place posting about this, and there's a reason, I play a lot of non-conventional builds that use bows. The running joke in my guild is that I can make an AA out of anything, and they're still challenging me to do a cleric. The only Wiz, for example, that I've had to 20 was an AA. So when I'm looking at these changes, I see net losses, and what I see actual numbers for is all I can comment on. When the next notes go live, I'll be commenting on them too; good, bad or indifferent. I have a vested interest in this, because I have toons that are going for non-conventional AAs, FvS, Druid/Ranger split, and ranged in general, such as mech/arti and arti. Inquis did not exist when I started these builds, and frankly, I'm playing one now, but despite the hoopla, it hasn't inspired me to either create an alt just to play it, or to replace any of my current plans. Maybe it would, if it wasn't lvl 10, but as of now, nope, so I'm not overly concerned about what happens to it, except where what happens to it kneecaps all of my other builds.

You might want to reread part of Sev's post:

Here, I'll highlight it for you.


Greetings,

Thank you for the feedback on our current Lamannia deployment. I wanted to clarify some things and respond to some player feedback.

-snip

For the ranged pass, we have a few additional changes coming. The Archer’s Focus stance will be further reworked to address functionality concerns, and in addition will have a component that further increases its damage. Bows will get an additional exclusive buff to shore up their effectiveness when compared to other ranged options to prevent the style as a whole from experiencing a loss of DPS.

-snip

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

Kinda clear what he means, and just because there are no "numbers" added, I see my main will enjoy her next life.

EDIT:


This is the current iteration, the only part of this that remains true after U45, currently, is that you only damage your intended target. That you don't use this feat tells me that when you're playing ranged, you hit a lot of mobs that you don't intend to hit in areas where mobs can, and will, wander into your line of fire, so in my example of Maraud the Mines, if a gnoll wanders into your line of fire while you're attacking one of the casters in their perches, you have drawn additional aggro onto yourself.


I never said: "don't use" I actually like hit what you target part of it (makes Let sleeping Dust lie easy).

I meant: "I don't rely on stack building".

EDIT2: where I live, we have an expression for what you did: "blowing on cold", meaning you panic about change that will never happen.

[Ashlayna]

You might want to reread part of Sev's post:

Here, I'll highlight it for you.



Kinda clear what he means, and just because there are no "numbers" added, I see my main will enjoy her next life.

Um, no? I was using what's presented to show what was live on Lamma, so "what's going to happen later" doesn't apply. Whether it's good or bad, is still up in the air. I can't comment on it, since I haven't seen it, and that was my point. I didn't make any comments about the changes that went live on Lamma before I saw what they were for the same reason, I didn't know what they were. The information I provided in the post that Lynnabel quoted is the most recent actual numbers we can compare. Until there are new numbers, it's all just speculation, and I'd rather argue facts, even with the caveat of "current", which I did, than "but they said it's going to be better", because all I know at this point is that it's going to be different. Different =/= better, or we wouldn't be having this conversation, because the last iteration was definitely different, but definitely wasn't better.

[Quikster]

I hear a lot of
"don't balance it based on Reapers"
"don't balance it based on HCL"
and so on.

so you just don't want balance?
you like having your favorite OP build just the way it is?
That is your opinion. It is not everyone's opinion.

I will personally champion balancing the game on ... NORMAL DUNGEON LEVEL.

ANYTHING that makes a normal dungeon level a cake walk needs to be nerfed out of existence.

It is a perfect solution. You say the game is too easy?
Make normal a challenge, if that is not good enough...go in on hard...with a party, eliminate Reapers as unnecessary.

So what kinda nerfs we talking about to make normal a challenge?

No guild ship buffs, at all (services like mail are ok)
No Hirelings
No store buffs
No advanced levels (everyone start at 1)
No universal enhancement trees
No reincarnation
No past lives
No exp. potions or tomes
etc..

Return DDO to AD+D

Don't like that idea? tough
It is just as good as everyone else's idea.

THE POINT
For every endgame player desperately trying to protect their personal
exploit ridden OP character, there are guys like me who would like those
kind of unbalanced characters REMOVED.

and to put my money were my mouth is, I will now expose and often use exploit
that needs to be removed.

Hey, developers: You know that spell/scroll flame arrow?
They should disappear after you log out, if you put them in the bank, THEY DON'T.

Players have been exploiting this by having one toon make a ton of disposable flame ammo
and storing in the bank so their other characters can 'withdraw' a bunch of it at will.
The ammo needs to vaporize when stored in a bank.

1 exploit gone.

So the people that have been working on a character for 13+ years should just have those characters deleted and be fresh off the boat. Even if they would tolerate that, they would still be leaps and bounds above new people if only for quest knowledge, and game mechanics know how. This isn't the answer.

[Drunkendex]

Um, no? I was using what's presented to show what was live on Lamma, so "what's going to happen later" doesn't apply. Whether it's good or bad, is still up in the air. I can't comment on it, since I haven't seen it, and that was my point. I didn't make any comments about the changes that went live on Lamma before I saw what they were for the same reason, I didn't know what they were. The information I provided in the post that Lynnabel quoted is the most recent actual numbers we can compare. Until there are new numbers, it's all just speculation, and I'd rather argue facts, even with the caveat of "current", which I did, than "but they said it's going to be better", because all I know at this point is that it's going to be different. Different =/= better, or we wouldn't be having this conversation, because the last iteration was definitely different, but definitely wasn't better.

I'll just copy this from ranged changes thread on lamma part of forum...


Disclaimer
Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.



Stop blowing on cold.

[Ashlayna]

I'll just copy this from ranged changes thread on lamma part of forum...



Stop blowing on cold.

You really don't get it, do you? The threads were posted for feedback on the changes. I'm sorry you don't like my feedback, wait, no I'm not, but instead of trying to shut me up, why don't you either ignore me, or quit replying to me? You can drink all the Kool-Aid you like, I'm not interested. I saw what these changes were, I noted that there are more to come, I even noted that it's presented as not final. But if we just don't bother expressing our displeasure at the current iteration, they'll believe it's fine as it is, and it goes to live. You see, I'm not having a disconnect with the topic here, you are. I'm using the forums as intended. I'm not sure why you feel like you should be able to tell me I can't, or shouldn't? Maybe it's evidence overload, because instead of getting all emotional, I provided the last current facts available, and you ran out of good "nuh uh"s?

[Drunkendex]

You really don't get it, do you? The threads were posted for feedback on the changes. I'm sorry you don't like my feedback, wait, no I'm not, but instead of trying to shut me up, why don't you either ignore me, or quit replying to me? You can drink all the Kool-Aid you like, I'm not interested. I saw what these changes were, I noted that there are more to come, I even noted that it's presented as not final. But if we just don't bother expressing our displeasure at the current iteration, they'll believe it's fine as it is, and it goes to live. You see, I'm not having a disconnect with the topic here, you are. I'm using the forums as intended. I'm not sure why you feel like you should be able to tell me I can't, or shouldn't? Maybe it's evidence overload, because instead of getting all emotional, I provided the last current facts available, and you ran out of good "nuh uh"s?

XD
XD
XD

Take a chill pill, will ya.

You raged about those changes harder than my barbarian.

And went all hostile on me when I disagreed with you.

Just because they changed one part of feat with limited use.

I find you funny, at best.

I read lamma changes and actually liked them, while you latched on Archer Focus changes as if they're gonna turn bows into weakest weapon group.

Funny, I say, as in that song by Metallica: "hearing only what you wanna hear, knowing only what you heard." You saw only nerfs while ignoring boosts, OH and there were boosts announced, and great ones, you just ignored them because you were upset about stack losing.

[SpittingCobra]

I hear a lot of
...

It is a perfect solution. You say the game is too easy?
Make normal a challenge, if that is not good enough...go in on hard...with a party, eliminate Reapers as unnecessary.

...

I never said the game is too easy. I like having options and not seeing those options go away because someone assumed I said or thought or wanted something I DO NOT! I love casual play, it is like meditation for me. My personal life is hardcore enough. If I want to up the challenge, the game already has that option for me. I vote no on your suggestion. As if new players didn't struggle already enough as it is, this suggestion does not consider them one bit.

Please do not put words in the mouths of all the players as though you are their representative. I like the idea of HCL server, but I do not think the game ought to be pressed into that being the standard. It has taken many years to evolve as it is, and it is a very fun game.

If they make HCL server open as a new option that is great. If they make it the only option that is a waste of the developers time over many years developing the enhancement trees and allowing us to decide for ourselves HOW we enjoy to play. I can not stand by your suggestion. No disrespect. This is my opinion.

Good day to you sir.

[Ashlayna]

XD
XD
XD

Take a chill pill, will ya.

You raged about those changes harder than my barbarian.

And went all hostile on me when I disagreed with you.

Just because they changed one part of feat with limited use.

I find you funny, at best.

I read lamma changes and actually liked them, while you latched on Archer Focus changes as if they're gonna turn bows into weakest weapon group.

Funny, I say, as in that song by Metallica: "hearing only what you wanna hear, knowing only what you heard." You saw only nerfs while ignoring boosts, OH and there were boosts announced, and great ones, you just ignored them because you were upset about stack losing.

I thought you said you read the Lamma forums? You must have "conveniently" missed the part where they stated that bows are already the weakest weapon group? It's ironic, I suppose, that you come back with this, after snipping a quote from the very thread that presents this statement, and pointing to another that points to changes to bows, for just this reason. One of us is, indeed, hearing only what we want to hear, you heard the devs say "It's going to be fine, trust me", and you sipped the Kool-Aid, and went into forum paladin mode.

Let's also consider that while Lynnabel did link me to a thread I'd already read about how more adjustments were in the pipe, she did not say that my comparison was invalid. Just that more was in the works. That's fine, but, as I stated, I can't comment on what I haven't seen, and as I said earlier, different =/= better, because, as I pointed out v1 of U45 was different, but definitely not better, and you provided the evidence to that yourself, when you linked to "but we're gonna fix this". So no, not raging, yet. I'm saving my rage until I know what's going live, or what's likely to. In the meantime, I'm disagreeing that any of this needed to be changed to nerf Inquis. There weren't thousands of posts complaining about PS/AF, or IPS prior to Inquis being released, and there aren't thousands of posts about it afterwards, and given the nature of MMOs, there would have been. A surgical strike was needed, and they responded with scorched earth.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I'll just copy this from ranged changes thread on lamma part of forum...



Stop blowing on cold.
If we don’t have people vigorously pointing out just how bad the changes are, SSG will end up putting them into place as is.

If it weren’t for the enormous outrage over XP changes, we would have had the catastrophic original version of 42.4 instead of the revised version that made the changes much better.

Your condescending and dismissive and disrespectful attitude does not give your arguments any actual weight. They just make you seem petty and sad.

[Quikster]

If we don’t have people vigorously pointing out just how bad the changes are, SSG will end up putting them into place as is.

If it weren’t for the enormous outrage over XP changes, we would have had the catastrophic original version of 42.4 instead of the revised version that made the changes much better.

Your condescending and dismissive and disrespectful attitude does not give your arguments any actual weight. They just make you seem petty and sad.

Some of the “chill out” people must think we sit at the keyboard foaming at the mouth waiting to disparage anyone that wants to nerf our OP exploits lol. Instead having done this with the devs so many times and seen our efforts bear fruit.

[Lynnabel]

If we don’t have people vigorously pointing out just how bad the changes are, SSG will end up putting them into place as is.

Worth noting that there are many ways of getting information to us without the use of nonconstructive criticism. Enthusiasm is appreciated, vitriol is not. We're human, too.

[Drunkendex]

Worth noting that there are many ways of getting information to us without the use of nonconstructive criticism. Enthusiasm is appreciated, vitriol is not. We're human, too.

And here, boys and girls, you see why I AM so toxic.

Take a chill pill, will ya.

Ans if bows are weakest weapon group (newer actually noticed that, I guess noone uses some niche weapon groups) it MUST BE logical for SSG to nerf them right? RIGHT!?

SSG are BAAAAAAD people who have holy mission to make playerbase lives as miserable as possible.

I like announced changes to bows, and don't plan to latch on to ONE effin change as if it's gonna ruin EVERYTHING. (while ignoring good changes)

Yes there are changes about which I wanna smack SSG team head, but nowhere near as bad as DOOOOOOOOOM people are saying.

Chill pill is THAT way.

[axan22]

can we get the reward ticket vendor back on live too please.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Worth noting that there are many ways of getting information to us without the use of nonconstructive criticism. Enthusiasm is appreciated, vitriol is not. We're human, too.

I hate to say it, but that's the general tone of the DDO Forums. I care about the game, but I've given a lot less feedback on this change (even though it needs a LOT of feedback) because I just didn't want to have to deal with the stream of toxic garbage from people like Drunkendex and other "forum paladins".

SSG sets the tone for its own forums. YOU (SSG) decide what the forums will be like with your moderation policies. That means correcting people who are abusive and spew vitriol when they're "defending" you as well as when people are criticizing what you've done.

SSG does a lot of great things. And then sometimes make some really boneheaded moves. And then pretend that everything is fine. Even us "forum trolls" complement SSG when you do something good (some of the recent UI changes have been fantastic - ESPECIALLY the Heroic/Epic level sorting on the Quest list). When we point out that something is a problem or that something seems to be unacceptable, we wouldn't be doing it if we didn't care. It's when people stop making as much noise that you have to really worry.

And yes, I have been making less noise this time around. Because I'm tired of the vitriol.

Congratulations. You're getting what you wanted. I guess.

[HungarianRhapsody]

And here, boys and girls, you see why I AM so toxic.

Take a chill pill, will ya.

Ans if bows are weakest weapon group (newer actually noticed that, I guess noone uses some niche weapon groups) it MUST BE logical for SSG to nerf them right? RIGHT!?

SSG are BAAAAAAD people who have holy mission to make playerbase lives as miserable as possible.

I like announced changes to bows, and don't plan to latch on to ONE effin change as if it's gonna ruin EVERYTHING. (while ignoring good changes)

Yes there are changes about which I wanna smack SSG team head, but nowhere near as bad as DOOOOOOOOOM people are saying.

Chill pill is THAT way.

Congratulations on setting the tone that makes these forums the way it is.

[fatherpirate]

nobody here

[Kutalp]

I hear a lot of
"don't balance it based on Reapers"
"don't balance it based on HCL"
and so on.

so you just don't want balance?
you like having your favorite OP build just the way it is?
That is your opinion. It is not everyone's opinion.

I will personally champion balancing the game on ... NORMAL DUNGEON LEVEL.

ANYTHING that makes a normal dungeon level a cake walk needs to be nerfed out of existence.

It is a perfect solution. You say the game is too easy?
Make normal a challenge, if that is not good enough...go in on hard...with a party, eliminate Reapers as unnecessary.

So what kinda nerfs we talking about to make normal a challenge?

No guild ship buffs, at all (services like mail are ok)
No Hirelings
No store buffs
No advanced levels (everyone start at 1)
No universal enhancement trees
No reincarnation
No past lives
No exp. potions or tomes
etc..

Return DDO to AD+D

Don't like that idea? tough
It is just as good as everyone else's idea.

THE POINT
For every endgame player desperately trying to protect their personal
exploit ridden OP character, there are guys like me who would like those
kind of unbalanced characters REMOVED.

and to put my money were my mouth is, I will now expose and often use exploit
that needs to be removed.

Hey, developers: You know that spell/scroll flame arrow?
They should disappear after you log out, if you put them in the bank, THEY DON'T.

Players have been exploiting this by having one toon make a ton of disposable flame ammo
and storing in the bank so their other characters can 'withdraw' a bunch of it at will.
The ammo needs to vaporize when stored in a bank.

1 exploit gone.






Thats how I play for the last couple of seasons. You described my gaming sessions. I dropped all universal trees and all favored weapons and anything and I stick to noob born fresh builds with old classes and random loot aswell.

Because started to see the same builds and same items and same races running around the place for eternity.

[Ashlayna]

Worth noting that there are many ways of getting information to us without the use of nonconstructive criticism. Enthusiasm is appreciated, vitriol is not. We're human, too.

In so far as I'm aware, my criticism has been leaning to constructive, if not constructive, to the point where the one post that you have replied to that I made about ranged was to point me to a thread, which I had already read, but it's likely you didn't know, but that didn't have any details, just "changes are in the pipe". Since I was, at the time, demonstrating what the current changes were, it didn't really counter anything that was laid out. It was a comparison to what is live now, and what was live on the last iteration of Lamma, and since it was a comparison, just saying "well, it'll be different" doesn't add anything to the dialog. Unlike some that seem to want to moderate from their living room, I actually use the skills in question, and have made long term plans that had these feats in mind. I have a vested interest in knowing where they're headed, and pointing out that I think these changes are a mistake, 8 years worth of time and money sunk into specific toons, for specific builds, that will be using these feats regularly.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Why am I always the last person to learn about these exploits?!

And here I was running Korthos Elites with my first life Rangers swinging Moldy Quarterstaffs....

[Drunkendex]

In so far as I'm aware, my criticism has been leaning to constructive, if not constructive, to the point where the one post that you have replied to that I made about ranged was to point me to a thread, which I had already read, but it's likely you didn't know, but that didn't have any details, just "changes are in the pipe". Since I was, at the time, demonstrating what the current changes were, it didn't really counter anything that was laid out. It was a comparison to what is live now, and what was live on the last iteration of Lamma, and since it was a comparison, just saying "well, it'll be different" doesn't add anything to the dialog. Unlike some that seem to want to moderate from their living room, I actually use the skills in question, and have made long term plans that had these feats in mind. I have a vested interest in knowing where they're headed, and pointing out that I think these changes are a mistake, 8 years worth of time and money sunk into specific toons, for specific builds, that will be using these feats regularly.

Your criticism was leaning to whiny TBH.

You latched on stack losing, and if, as you say you have made long term plans with stack building, well, it's time to change those plans.

If I were as upset each time SSG made changes that made me change my long term plans...

OH BOY...

That would increase popcorn sales for sure.

But that's best thing about DDO and DnD in general, you can experiment with builds as much as you want, and one minor change would not gimp your previous build so much you could not level to 20/30 to TR.

[Ashlayna]

Your criticism was leaning to whiny TBH.

You latched on stack losing, and if, as you say you have made long term plans with stack building, well, it's time to change those plans.

If I were as upset each time SSG made changes that made me change my long term plans...

OH BOY...

That would increase popcorn sales for sure.

But that's best thing about DDO and DnD in general, you can experiment with builds as much as you want, and one minor change would not gimp your previous build so much you could not level to 20/30 to TR.

Hey look, it's my stalker. The guy that doesn't use a skill, but wants to regale us with all of his knowledge on it, all while flexing his forum muscles in an attempt to silence anyone that has a view he doesn't like. I think it's time to start looking into a restraining order now, before you show up at my house.

[Drunkendex]

Hey look, it's my stalker. The guy that doesn't use a skill, but wants to regale us with all of his knowledge on it, all while flexing his forum muscles in an attempt to silence anyone that has a view he doesn't like. I think it's time to start looking into a restraining order now, before you show up at my house.

Shhhh, don't look behind ;) That reflection in monitor is me.

Actually I use AF, just don't bother maxing stacks.

Look, were you less... how to say it... annoying in your outrage about AF stack removal, I would not even notice you. But you went in all outrage as if that would gimp EVERY archer build possible, and I am REALLY annoyed by that claim, since I actually like announced bow changes.

Did not help you were indirectly accusing SSG of being malicious when they finally showed some love to bow builds.

Yes, I have my peeves with SSG (Lynn would it kill you to answer on ANY of my inquires about cripple/hamstring? SHEESH) I can see they actually try, unlike Ankama, and I respect that, and WILL defend their right to go all FUBAR on DDO.

If it means I gotta go full toxic, so be it.

[Ashlayna]

Shhhh, don't look behind ;) That reflection in monitor is me.

Actually I use AF, just don't bother maxing stacks.

Look, were you less... how to say it... annoying in your outrage about AF stack removal, I would not even notice you. But you went in all outrage as if that would gimp EVERY archer build possible, and I am REALLY annoyed by that claim, since I actually like announced bow changes.

Did not help you were indirectly accusing SSG of being malicious when they finally showed some love to bow builds.

Yes, I have my peeves with SSG (Lynn would it kill you to answer on ANY of my inquires about cripple/hamstring? SHEESH) I can see they actually try, unlike Ankama, and I respect that, and WILL defend their right to go all FUBAR on DDO.

If it means I gotta go full toxic, so be it.

Dammit, I looked, and it was just a cat. <.< >.>

[Drunkendex]

Dammit, I looked, and it was just a cat. <.< >.>

Mine is sprawled over my right arm, so I have to type with left arm... >_<

At least he stopped stretching and pressing keyboard keys...

[HungarianRhapsody]

Shhhh, don't look behind ;) That reflection in monitor is me.

Actually I use AF, just don't bother maxing stacks.

Look, were you less... how to say it... annoying in your outrage about AF stack removal, I would not even notice you. But you went in all outrage as if that would gimp EVERY archer build possible, and I am REALLY annoyed by that claim, since I actually like announced bow changes.

Did not help you were indirectly accusing SSG of being malicious when they finally showed some love to bow builds.

Yes, I have my peeves with SSG (Lynn would it kill you to answer on ANY of my inquires about cripple/hamstring? SHEESH) I can see they actually try, unlike Ankama, and I respect that, and WILL defend their right to go all FUBAR on DDO.

If it means I gotta go full toxic, so be it.


https://www.ddo.com/en/community/community-rules

Let’s see if SSG cares about vitriol in general or only in one direction.

[Drunkendex]

https://www.ddo.com/en/community/community-rules

Let’s see if SSG cares about vitriol in general or only in one direction.

+1 to reputation for this post.

[krolikru3]

I hear a lot of
"don't balance it based on Reapers"
"don't balance it based on HCL"
and so on.

so you just don't want balance?
you like having your favorite OP build just the way it is?
That is your opinion. It is not everyone's opinion.

I will personally champion balancing the game on ... NORMAL DUNGEON LEVEL.

ANYTHING that makes a normal dungeon level a cake walk needs to be nerfed out of existence.

It is a perfect solution. You say the game is too easy?
Make normal a challenge, if that is not good enough...go in on hard...with a party, eliminate Reapers as

So what kinda nerfs we talking about to make normal a challenge?

No guild ship buffs, at all (services like mail are ok)
No Hirelings
No store buffs
No advanced levels (everyone start at 1)
No universal enhancement trees
No reincarnation
No past lives
No exp. potions or tomes
etc..

Return DDO to AD+D

Don't like that idea? tough
It is just as good as everyone else's idea.

THE POINT
For every endgame player desperately trying to protect their personal
exploit ridden OP character, there are guys like me who would like those
kind of unbalanced characters REMOVED.

and to put my money were my mouth is, I will now expose and often use exploit
that needs to be removed.

Hey, developers: You know that spell/scroll flame arrow?
They should disappear after you log out, if you put them in the bank, THEY DON'T.

Players have been exploiting this by having one toon make a ton of disposable flame ammo
and storing in the bank so their other characters can 'withdraw' a bunch of it at will.
The ammo needs to vaporize when stored in a bank.

1 exploit gone.

I mean... That's one way to kill the game if that's your goal. One of the main things going for DDO is its replay-ability. Taking out reincarnation would just leave you with an outdated MMO with a deeper customization option. The part of the game that gets people to come back and play all the quests over again would be removed.

Normal difficulty is just that - Normal. It is balanced for the first lifers because that is the "base-line starter" difficulty. Every difficulty after that is meant for people who are a step ahead of first lifers. This is a PvE game... not PvP. You don't need to sap the fun from other people, because their fun isn't ruining your fun. If you want to solo everything as a first lifer on normal difficulty... there is nothing stopping you. There is plenty of EXP in the game, and you can explore as many different off-meta builds as you like. But for the rest of us who have gotten tired of grinding out the same gear all over again, and one shotting mobs while holding heal scrolls, we would prefer higher difficulties like reaper.

What you perceive is "OP" and "exploit ridden" is instead a bunch of dedicated gamers who spend hours grinding out specific past lives, and reading thousands of different enhancements and abilities to fit together just right. A triple completionist sorcerer wielding a greataxe will be OP in the eyes of a first lifer - that's how the game works... you put in the time... you get rewarded with past lives. I'm sorry if you would prefer everyone be at the same power level as you, but unfortunately, there will be naturally gifted players. Balancing the game around your needs by taking out features instead of adding them is not the solution to your problem. The solution to your problem is to find like-minded people and run exclusively with them (or solo) or put in the time so that you can climb to higher difficulties and have the feeling of some sort of accomplishment when you tackle harder and harder content.

[Goalt]

Actually though I was thinking exactly the same thing. Hard should be actually hard, elite, you know, elite. You can use hires to carry you through the first five levels or so of heroic on elite; there's obviously a problem. Nowadays, you may as well lump anything not reaper - normal, hard, and elite - into its own "not reaper category" and call it a day for most people.

Here's an idea - scale stuff based on the party members entering the dungeon. So, if you're a guy with 100+ past lives and twink gear (aka 5 set bonuses), you get harder stuff. Make it a sneak update as well; don't tell anybody. Then listen to the zergers complaining about how they're lives are ruined forever. You could make a survey asking all concurrent players what they think they're skill level is based on several categories, then adjust dungeon scaling based on that. Create several tiers of difficulty behind the game that players don't see. If there's a zerger and a newbie in the same party, the monsters the zerger hits feels almost the same as the newbie's.

Soloing would be fine except for on elite maybe; that's the difficulty I suggest you raise it to.

N
H
E

would become

N1 = the newest player fresh off of Korthos Island
N2 = new players on main toons that are around level 4 or 5
N3 = new players on main toons that are around 10 or 11, maybe LR, too
H1 = new players on main toons that have reached level 20 and undergone TR once
H2 = the average player who's played for a couple of years and has a good grip/a couple of PL under his belt, knows what meta builds are, etc.
H3 = people who run raids on legendary difficulty, normal to (mostly) elite most of the time
E1 = guys that run stuff on R8-10 in a full group
E2 = kind of ultra zerger, dies maybe 2-3 times per R8-10 solo
E3 = ultra zerger powergamer who plays sorc or inquis. right now (aka R10 flawless solos)

All backstage stuff, like I said. No need to inform anybody because they don't need to know. And this is for all difficulties, not just N1-3 for normal, etc.. If your skill increases, the game detects it and bumps you up. After a long break and just coming back? Maybe bumped down a tier or two. Each sub-tier scales with each of the 3(4) difficulties; i.e. the whole sub-tier system shifts to the next difficulty (N-> H, etc.) if you go up. In other words, it maintains the original point of this whole post (normal is normal, elite is, elite).

OP builds are another thing altogether...

Of course, this is all just a sketch at best. Not likely to be implemented, but still worth a shot.

[SirValentine]

I will personally champion balancing the game on ... NORMAL DUNGEON LEVEL.

ANYTHING that makes a normal dungeon level a cake walk needs to be nerfed out of existence.

It is a perfect solution. You say the game is too easy?
Make normal a challenge, if that is not good enough...go in on hard...with a party, eliminate Reapers as unnecessary.


I kind of agree with the idea, but disagree with one pretty big detail.

Hard should be hard. It's in the name! Normal isn't Hard, so Normal shouldn't be hard.

If Hard is easy, nerf it. If Normal is easy, well, that's normal.

[karatemack]

In so far as I'm aware, my criticism has been leaning to constructive, if not constructive,

Yep. But it's easier to justify ignoring you if we label your posts as "forum whining" or start saying that while your points are valid... you presented them in a hostile way. I have seen this happen to many players who posted stats, detailed explanations, videos of their in-game experience, etc.

You are not alone in your experience, and the devs would do well to take their own advice since we are all "human too".

[Drunkendex]

Yep. But it's easier to justify ignoring you if we label your posts as "forum whining" or start saying that while your points are valid... you presented them in a hostile way. I have seen this happen to many players who posted stats, detailed explanations, videos of their in-game experience, etc.

You are not alone in your experience, and the devs would do well to take their own advice since we are all "human too".

You're right, there was nothing hostile here, and whining was nonexistent. :P


Man, it would sure be nice if that's all they were nerfing. Sadly, it's not. Every ranged player in the game is fixing to get slammed, and hard. Straight 20% loss for 3 feats, 19 dex and +11 BAB, right out of the gate, on IPS, on any class that's using it. Archer's Focus loses all stacks you may have built up as soon as you change targets. But hey, they nerfed Inquis, right? Right along with everyone else that uses a ranged class, whether they're running Inquis or not. Let's not forget those that build for a ranged back up, and maybe take Precise Shot for Archer's Focus when they have to go ranged for perched mobs, nerfed as well. Look at the bright side, you'll get to close on your melee toons now, so you can come back to complain about how the mobs hit too hard.

No, constructive and supporting to the max.

Really hate it when people overreact to minor changes.
DOOM I say, DOOOOOOM!

Don't be surprised for my... reaction. ;)

[Quikster]

You're right, there was nothing hostile here, and whining was nonexistent. :P



No, constructive and supporting to the max.

Really hate it when people overreact to minor changes.
DOOM I say, DOOOOOOM!

Don't be surprised for my... reaction. ;)

You demand constructive and supportive to the max while doing the exact opposite to others who disagree with your opinion. Seems like you’re not really interested in an of the topics but just want to keep the dialogue going.

[Spl1tz]

Actually though I was thinking exactly the same thing. Hard should be actually hard, elite, you know, elite. You can use hires to carry you through the first five levels or so of heroic on elite; there's obviously a problem. Nowadays, you may as well lump anything not reaper - normal, hard, and elite - into its own "not reaper category" and call it a day for most people.

Here's an idea - scale stuff based on the party members entering the dungeon. So, if you're a guy with 100+ past lives and twink gear (aka 5 set bonuses), you get harder stuff. Make it a sneak update as well; don't tell anybody. Then listen to the zergers complaining about how they're lives are ruined forever. You could make a survey asking all concurrent players what they think they're skill level is based on several categories, then adjust dungeon scaling based on that. Create several tiers of difficulty behind the game that players don't see. If there's a zerger and a newbie in the same party, the monsters the zerger hits feels almost the same as the newbie's.

Soloing would be fine except for on elite maybe; that's the difficulty I suggest you raise it to.

N
H
E

would become

N1 = the newest player fresh off of Korthos Island
N2 = new players on main toons that are around level 4 or 5
N3 = new players on main toons that are around 10 or 11, maybe LR, too
H1 = new players on main toons that have reached level 20 and undergone TR once
H2 = the average player who's played for a couple of years and has a good grip/a couple of PL under his belt, knows what meta builds are, etc.
H3 = people who run raids on legendary difficulty, normal to (mostly) elite most of the time
E1 = guys that run stuff on R8-10 in a full group
E2 = kind of ultra zerger, dies maybe 2-3 times per R8-10 solo
E3 = ultra zerger powergamer who plays sorc or inquis. right now (aka R10 flawless solos)

All backstage stuff, like I said. No need to inform anybody because they don't need to know. And this is for all difficulties, not just N1-3 for normal, etc.. If your skill increases, the game detects it and bumps you up. After a long break and just coming back? Maybe bumped down a tier or two. Each sub-tier scales with each of the 3(4) difficulties; i.e. the whole sub-tier system shifts to the next difficulty (N-> H, etc.) if you go up. In other words, it maintains the original point of this whole post (normal is normal, elite is, elite).

OP builds are another thing altogether...

Of course, this is all just a sketch at best. Not likely to be implemented, but still worth a shot.

I like this suggestion.
But instead of scaling everyone to the same level of difficulty in the party by default, it should be toggleable in the LFM options. Allows people to choose wether they want to play with players playing OP builds or not.

Nobody ruins anyone's fun, no need to nerf anything and everybody keeps their hard earned grinded characters.
The "i DoNt LiKe oP bUiLdS" whining will stop.
Everybody Happy.

[dennisck2]

You demand constructive and supportive to the max while doing the exact opposite to others who disagree with your opinion. Seems like you’re not really interested in an of the topics but just want to keep the dialogue going.

+1

[Quikster]

This thread has exceeding it's usefulness.
Time to move on.

So, once again, you are making public posts, and then trying to control the way the community responds to them. This seems to be a pattern now.

Or maybe someone told you public discussion of exploits on these here forums are frowned upon. ¯\_(?)_/¯.

[phillymiket]

nvm.

[Quikster]

nvm.

That’s unfortunate you changed your post because it was a good one. And you’re right. I think there is no way to “balance” new people versus vets at this point.

[phillymiket]

That’s unfortunate you changed your post because it was a good one. And you’re right. I think there is no way to “balance” new people versus vets at this point.

Oh sorry.
I figured being newly returned to the game there was a high probability of that post being full of #$%^ :)

But to tl : dr
This issue is as old as time.
I don't think we'll get an effective rebalance for free.
They need to make money for their work.
I'd pay for an expansion that added a new extra-uber-elite setting for old content.
If they properly reworked things quest-by-quest with new mobs, traps, etc.
Instead of trying to solve things globally on the cheap with Reapers and power suppression
Free solutions don't seem to work well against the best players in the game.
This might need a proper "expansion" budget and dev time allocation to fix.
While they were at it, it would be much cheaper for them to touch up Normal through r10 too.
Make everyone happier with their setting.
That would be worth money to me.

[karatemack]

I don't think we'll get an effective rebalance for free.


Many are happy to pay for VIP each month. The paid expansion model is not the only way the dev team is compensated by the players for making the game.

[Chai]

Selling character power directly contradicts game balance. No matter how hard the nerf hammer hits the previous character power sold, the new character power sold will need to be top-of-the-meta or near top-of-the-meta to meet its full sell through potential. While some would buy it to keep their completionist, many more buy it when it tops previous iterations in the archetype.

To say that ship sailed is an understatement. That galleon is in a museum. Several generations of tech advancement later, aircraft carriers now rule those seas.

[Kutalp]

https://www.hrrshop.de/bilder/produkte/gross/RUNNING-WILD-Death-or-Glory-DLP.jpg


F0r S4le...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDmiS1YCfMs

Do not cry. Life is not worth the tears.

[Fenrisulven7]

Selling character power directly contradicts game balance. No matter how hard the nerf hammer hits the previous character power sold, the new character power sold will need to be top-of-the-meta or near top-of-the-meta to meet its full sell through potential.

I think these forums grossly over-represent the number of players who care about the meta.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I think these forums grossly over-represent the number of players who care about the meta.

If the meta doesn't matter, then no inquisitive or other nerfs actually matter. People will still play the styles they enjoy even if they are "underpowered".

[Ashlayna]

If the meta doesn't matter, then no inquisitive or other nerfs actually matter. People will still play the styles they enjoy even if they are "underpowered".

Not exactly. Someone might well be playing something that isn't Inquis, but will be hit as hard, or harder, by these changes in particular, or, looking ahead, or behind, by other changes that don't actually apply to them. A good example is when they nerfed Many Shot because of the Many Shot/10K stars thing. Some people believed that they had to have both, and have them up 100% of the time. For me, Many Shot was an "oh **** moment" skill, where say my guild leader zerged ahead and pulled two extra rooms full of mobs back to us. <---- Something that has actually happened to me. For the vast majority of my gameplay, that nerf didn't matter, but when I needed it, I felt it. For that reason, I probably didn't leave a lot of comments on it, because it wasn't totally game changing for me, despite how hard it may have hit someone else. The majority of the nerfs, especially to ranged combat, didn't seem to be an issue, there aren't 1000s of posts lamenting how OP IPS is, for example, until Inquis came out. So where a surgical strike may have been called for, they chose a scorched earth policy instead, claiming "it's always been an issue". These very forums tell a very different story. If we went back two years before Inquis release, how many threads would we find calling for nerfs to IPS? Did Inquis ever get to the point where we could say "It's nerf Inquis (insert random day of the week here)"?

[phillymiket]

Many are happy to pay for VIP each month. The paid expansion model is not the only way the dev team is compensated by the players for making the game.

I hear you. I'm back to VIP so I fully understand wanting my sub to cover it.
But will that happen? I'm not holding my breath.

The game appears to be exactly where it was when I left 3 years ago.
The tires are still spinning the wheels in the exact same threads about the same issues.
I really don't think it's realistic to continue to hope that a massive overhaul is forthcoming ever.

But they do seem to have time for new content, new weapon systems, etc.
That has to be because they can charge for it. This is probably wholly a money issue.

Unless they can sell us something to justify their time, like a new top tier level,
I highly doubt they will ever be given permission to do the quest-by-quest work needed
to turn quests from 2006 into content that can challenge 2020 players
The danger of losing players by not fixing the problem does not seem to motivating enough.
Perhaps only the lure of selling us the solution would be.

OPs idea of (essentially) wiping the servers would be cheap. I'll give it that.
But it would cause an uproar and exodus, I suspect. They won't risk it.
It won't happen, nor will anything that is work heavy for the devs.
All you will be getting for free (or VIP) is slight adjustments to the existing Reaper system.

Hey Chai, not sure if your post is directed at me.
If so, I think it would be a mistake to sell new power creep to instantly invalidate the new top-tier setting.
Just make the content more fun for the existing top power level.
Will players buy content that only gives fun and challenge?
I don't know. It's just a suggestion.

But I'd pay for a setting that I couldn't roflstomp that wasn't just all Reapers all the time.
It would freshen the whole game for me even if it was the same rewards as r1-10.
But that's just me. You may feel differently.
A new setting would take time. Time = money. I see no way around that fact at this point.

Thank you for your responses.

[Quikster]

I think these forums grossly over-represent the number of players who care about the meta.

It might. But why does everyone in game go from endgame build to build. Chuckers, Plinkers, monks, wolfs, inquisitive, and coming soon alchemist?

[Ashlayna]

It might. But why does everyone in game go from endgame build to build. Chuckers, Plinkers, monks, wolfs, inquisitive, and coming soon alchemist?

Because they don't? There's more to the game than the circle you run with, or the circle I run with, but even with that, not everyone in the circle I run with is FotM hopping. I was here when monkcher was the FotY, (year), and yet, I have never run one, despite playing AA, a lot. I never even considered it. I didn't run out and buy Warlock, nor did I run out and make a Swash Bard. In fact, there was only one Swash bard in my guild when that was FotM, there were quite a few Warlocks, but Completionist, along with it being played, in my guild, by people that play a lot of casters anyway. Did they hop on it because it was the FotM, or because it was a new caster build to play around with? I'm not going to try to assign a motivation for it, largely because I have no idea why some people ran it for one life, or three, and then dropped it like a hot rock. If I were to look at their past lives, where I have notion of them, I'd venture a guess that it was for triple completionist, but that would be all it is, a guess.

A percentage of the player base invariably will do that, but there are lots of players that ignore the meta outright, or don't even know it exists. They see a new class, or a new enhancement tree to play, and think "cool, I should try that out at some point", or "nah, not my cup of tea/coffee/other beverage" and completely ignore it. If asked about whether they've checked out the build forums for build ideas, they may even ask "there's forums?" because they've never even considered looking at them. So your question is a fallacy. The problem is, that fallacy drives a lot of development in the game, and at the end of the day, the players that don't care about FotM are hit harder than anyone else.

[Quikster]

Because they don't? There's more to the game than the circle you run with, or the circle I run with, but even with that, not everyone in the circle I run with is FotM hopping. I was here when monkcher was the FotY, (year), and yet, I have never run one, despite playing AA, a lot. I never even considered it. I didn't run out and buy Warlock, nor did I run out and make a Swash Bard. In fact, there was only one Swash bard in my guild when that was FotM, there were quite a few Warlocks, but Completionist, along with it being played, in my guild, by people that play a lot of casters anyway. Did they hop on it because it was the FotM, or because it was a new caster build to play around with? I'm not going to try to assign a motivation for it, largely because I have no idea why some people ran it for one life, or three, and then dropped it like a hot rock. If I were to look at their past lives, where I have notion of them, I'd venture a guess that it was for triple completionist, but that would be all it is, a guess.

A percentage of the player base invariably will do that, but there are lots of players that ignore the meta outright, or don't even know it exists. They see a new class, or a new enhancement tree to play, and think "cool, I should try that out at some point", or "nah, not my cup of tea/coffee/other beverage" and completely ignore it. If asked about whether they've checked out the build forums for build ideas, they may even ask "there's forums?" because they've never even considered looking at them. So your question is a fallacy. The problem is, that fallacy drives a lot of development in the game, and at the end of the day, the players that don't care about FotM are hit harder than anyone else.

I refer to what I see the majority of people running around in game with. And if you look objectively at what the majority are playing it’s splits that favor their meta. In other words what they are currently trying to accomplish.

My experience though not scientific in any way, is the majority of people are running fotm builds that excel at what they are trying to do. Ymmv.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Because they don't? There's more to the game than the circle you run with, or the circle I run with, but even with that, not everyone in the circle I run with is FotM hopping. I was here when monkcher was the FotY, (year), and yet, I have never run one, despite playing AA, a lot. I never even considered it. I didn't run out and buy Warlock, nor did I run out and make a Swash Bard. In fact, there was only one Swash bard in my guild when that was FotM, there were quite a few Warlocks, but Completionist, along with it being played, in my guild, by people that play a lot of casters anyway. Did they hop on it because it was the FotM, or because it was a new caster build to play around with? I'm not going to try to assign a motivation for it, largely because I have no idea why some people ran it for one life, or three, and then dropped it like a hot rock. If I were to look at their past lives, where I have notion of them, I'd venture a guess that it was for triple completionist, but that would be all it is, a guess.

A percentage of the player base invariably will do that, but there are lots of players that ignore the meta outright, or don't even know it exists. They see a new class, or a new enhancement tree to play, and think "cool, I should try that out at some point", or "nah, not my cup of tea/coffee/other beverage" and completely ignore it. If asked about whether they've checked out the build forums for build ideas, they may even ask "there's forums?" because they've never even considered looking at them. So your question is a fallacy. The problem is, that fallacy drives a lot of development in the game, and at the end of the day, the players that don't care about FotM are hit harder than anyone else.

I PUG almost exclusively when I group.

What I've seen matches Quickster's experience and not what you're claiming exists.

[phillymiket]

It might. But why does everyone in game go from endgame build to build. Chuckers, Plinkers, monks, wolfs, inquisitive, and coming soon alchemist?

"The overwhelming majority of players don't read the forums"
That used to be a truism for DDO.
Most players played in their little bubble unaware of the sneaky things the forum people were doing.
Is it still true?

It's not just the forums. I can watch YouTube in church now. It's the age of Twitch.
Is anyone insulated from META knowledge anymore?

Loop-hole builds spread like wildfire in every game.
And with DDO you have way more options for customization with relatively easy respecing. Why wouldn't you?

Sure some won't FotM but so many will that you have to expect the whole recipe to taste of Month in short order.
The Devs only have a few knobs to turn and some nerf power with which to defend.
While players have literally hundreds and hundreds of different options to counter them.

[Quikster]

"The overwhelming majority of players don't read the forums"
That used to be a truism for DDO.
Most players played in their little bubble unaware of the sneaky things the forum people were doing.
Is it still true?

It's not just the forums. I can watch YouTube in church now. It's the age of Twitch.
Is anyone insulated from META knowledge anymore?

Loop-hole builds spread like wildfire in every game.
And with DDO you have way more options for customization with relatively easy respecing. Why wouldn't you?

Sure some won't FotM but so many will that you have to expect the whole recipe to taste of Month in short order.
The Devs only have a few knobs to turn and some nerf power with which to defend.
While players have literally hundreds and hundreds of different options to counter them.

Even though they don't read the forums, it trickles down in game. TR and bam, new build.

[Fenrisulven7]

Even though they don't read the forums, it trickles down in game. TR and bam, new build.

Not in the PUGs I've been running in. Do you guys even play the game? No offense, but it seems like a lot of complainers on the forums spend more time here than logged in.

You should stay off the forums for a few months and just play the game, I think you'll find your gaming experience doesn't match the way it's presented in the forums.

I re-joined in Jan 2019 and didn't even look at the forums until May when I had a CS problem. This place is much more negative than is warranted.

[SirValentine]

This place is much more negative than is warranted.

Negative? Sure! But warranted, too.

[Quikster]

Not in the PUGs I've been running in. Do you guys even play the game? No offense, but it seems like a lot of complainers on the forums spend more time here than logged in.

You should stay off the forums for a few months and just play the game, I think you'll find your gaming experience doesn't match the way it's presented in the forums.

I re-joined in Jan 2019 and didn't even look at the forums until May when I had a CS problem. This place is much more negative than is warranted.

Yes I play plenty.

[Kutalp]

It might. But why does everyone in game go from endgame build to build. Chuckers, Plinkers, monks, wolfs, inquisitive, and coming soon alchemist?







I spent a decent amount of money to DDO the last couple of years. Just to note it is five times the original amount when we count my local currency compared to original currency.

I play the game alot but I never go meta builds or meta guilds. I dont enjoy reaper either. What I like is building anything out of role play and running anything with the new buid each server.

I played with Meta class/tree races aswell. I just got bored. They were as if ready cooked and given unhealthy fast food compared to older builds of old days which allways left an opening to twist and turn around the builds and create something different.

I really love ddo and respect develoment team anyhow offering only a single type of weapon or ability stat then grossly empowring it to stomp anything else we played and had fun (roleplay builds allways functioned well. There was no wrong picks) is not good.

Compared to war, inq and similar cookie cutters, various of old builds fall back hard. Some can still end the quest run or dungeon but with lots of luck, tons of pot chugging and praying lag doesnt ruin the to hit and to chug chains. The difference between ready given and player made builds are so obvious. Should not be.


Just to note I still have hope that when us remaining loyal players support and enjoy the game , the developers and the guys behind the curtains still hear us. I know there re people who care for the game and care for the old and young grumpy players out there.



https://image.iol.co.za/image/1/process/620x349?source=https://inm-baobab-prod-eu-west-1.s3.amazonaws.com/public/inm/media/file/1/2073694/1475046507/image/1655717446.jpg

An ordinary DDO player with good hopes...

[Ashlayna]

I refer to what I see the majority of people running around in game with. And if you look objectively at what the majority are playing it’s splits that favor their meta. In other words what they are currently trying to accomplish.

My experience though not scientific in any way, is the majority of people are running fotm builds that excel at what they are trying to do. Ymmv.


I PUG almost exclusively when I group.

What I've seen matches Quickster's experience and not what you're claiming exists.

Here's the kicker: Inquis is currently the FotM. I am playing an Inquis. Am I playing it because it's FotM, or because it's new, to me?

I have stated that I find it's ok, but not something I was planning to replace one of my final builds with, despite some of my final builds being planned as ranged. My experience is limited to low/mid level play, because that's as far as I've gotten so far, but in that tier, a first life Mech/Arti is outperforming the Inquis. My 4th life Ranger AA is also outperforming it, this despite my Inquis running Ranger on it's 5th life. I am not running BiS gear on any of these, because none of them are on the lives where it matters, well, the mech is, but 1st life. The Ranger AA mentioned will be an Arti, the current Inquis will be a FvS AA. To that end, I do have gear in the bank for both of these, but none of it applies to their current iterations, so it's just a lag generator when I open the bank. I got it because I figured it would be a nice change of pace to just running the same builds over and over to get to my final, especially when the final will be the same build. It's the same reason I played my "barb sorc", sorc EK. It was fun to sword/board up and whack stuff on the head for a life, but I didn't change my build philosophy based on it.

However, if we were to join the same PuG, you'd sure think "oh look, another FotM player" yes? That's what you're going to see when the icon joins the group, after all. Hey, I'm even active on the forums, one might be forgiven for thinking that too, since from your perspective it would mean I got the build from the build forums, right? Wrong. I don't hit the build forums. I am well beyond simply proficient with ranged builds, in guild, I have the reputation of being able to make an effective AA out of anything, except cleric, because I won't play it. Bards, Wizards, FvS, Druid, 14/6 splits in any of those, yep, I've run a lot of those "weird" builds, and have been a solid contributor in guild parties, and fully capable of soloing, HE/EE when the mood strikes, on most of them. I played around with Reaper a lot early, but quickly grew bored with "HP sponges and random Reapers" as "challenge", so just stopped doing it, except where that's what the guild wants to run. I instead tailor my playtime to what the guild is doing, because I have a lot of fun running groups, there. Why? Because we have a "run what you brung" philosophy. We don't care if the meta considers it "gimp" or "OP", so long as whoever is running it is enjoying themselves. My guild leader is a notorious zerger, but he's not very good at it. We do, however, applaud his initiative as the "trap finder".

So no, "everyone" isn't doing it, and even some of the players that are playing the current FotM may not even be aware that that's what's going on. While one can indeed get youtube everywhere, not everyone does. My phone would, but, at my age, my phone, despite being capable, doesn't have all these apps on it. I watch videos either here, on my PC, or on my Xbox, but not on my phone. My FB page is limited to family, and friends that I've made over the years gaming, and still my phone doesn't connect to that. For all intents and purposes, my phone is a landline, because I don't carry it everywhere I go, unless I have a lot of driving to do to get there, or am going somewhere I've never been, in case I get lost. Other than that, it's sitting on the end table, or on the desk, even when I'm out and about doing whatever. I'm sure I'm not alone. I could, in fact, do what's done in the posts I've quoted here, and attribute my own experiences as being "canon", it's what I do, so it's what everyone else is doing.

[Quikster]

Here's the kicker: Inquis is currently the FotM. I am playing an Inquis. Am I playing it because it's FotM, or because it's new, to me?

I have stated that I find it's ok, but not something I was planning to replace one of my final builds with, despite some of my final builds being planned as ranged. My experience is limited to low/mid level play, because that's as far as I've gotten so far, but in that tier, a first life Mech/Arti is outperforming the Inquis. My 4th life Ranger AA is also outperforming it, this despite my Inquis running Ranger on it's 5th life. I am not running BiS gear on any of these, because none of them are on the lives where it matters, well, the mech is, but 1st life. The Ranger AA mentioned will be an Arti, the current Inquis will be a FvS AA. To that end, I do have gear in the bank for both of these, but none of it applies to their current iterations, so it's just a lag generator when I open the bank. I got it because I figured it would be a nice change of pace to just running the same builds over and over to get to my final, especially when the final will be the same build. It's the same reason I played my "barb sorc", sorc EK. It was fun to sword/board up and whack stuff on the head for a life, but I didn't change my build philosophy based on it.

However, if we were to join the same PuG, you'd sure think "oh look, another FotM player" yes? That's what you're going to see when the icon joins the group, after all. Hey, I'm even active on the forums, one might be forgiven for thinking that too, since from your perspective it would mean I got the build from the build forums, right? Wrong. I don't hit the build forums. I am well beyond simply proficient with ranged builds, in guild, I have the reputation of being able to make an effective AA out of anything, except cleric, because I won't play it. Bards, Wizards, FvS, Druid, 14/6 splits in any of those, yep, I've run a lot of those "weird" builds, and have been a solid contributor in guild parties, and fully capable of soloing, HE/EE when the mood strikes, on most of them. I played around with Reaper a lot early, but quickly grew bored with "HP sponges and random Reapers" as "challenge", so just stopped doing it, except where that's what the guild wants to run. I instead tailor my playtime to what the guild is doing, because I have a lot of fun running groups, there. Why? Because we have a "run what you brung" philosophy. We don't care if the meta considers it "gimp" or "OP", so long as whoever is running it is enjoying themselves. My guild leader is a notorious zerger, but he's not very good at it. We do, however, applaud his initiative as the "trap finder".

So no, "everyone" isn't doing it, and even some of the players that are playing the current FotM may not even be aware that that's what's going on. While one can indeed get youtube everywhere, not everyone does. My phone would, but, at my age, my phone, despite being capable, doesn't have all these apps on it. I watch videos either here, on my PC, or on my Xbox, but not on my phone. My FB page is limited to family, and friends that I've made over the years gaming, and still my phone doesn't connect to that. For all intents and purposes, my phone is a landline, because I don't carry it everywhere I go, unless I have a lot of driving to do to get there, or am going somewhere I've never been, in case I get lost. Other than that, it's sitting on the end table, or on the desk, even when I'm out and about doing whatever. I'm sure I'm not alone. I could, in fact, do what's done in the posts I've quoted here, and attribute my own experiences as being "canon", it's what I do, so it's what everyone else is doing.

All this is good info, but Im not really sure why you're giving it to me. I don't look at who joins a group and think, "ahh fotm". I just happen to notice when there are zero melee or zero spell casters, or whatever for multiple lives. I don't really care what you play or why you play it unless you come to me asking for help. Otherwise Im usually just looking at peoples level split to determine how to best tackle the challenge in front of us. I could care less what people choose to play, I was simply commenting on a point I disagreed with earlier in the thread. So continue to play what you want for the reasons you want and know I don't expect any justification on why you do so.

[Quikster]

I spent a decent amount of money to DDO the last couple of years. Just to note it is five times the original amount when we count my local currency compared to original currency.

I play the game alot but I never go meta builds or meta guilds. I dont enjoy reaper either. What I like is building anything out of role play and running anything with the new buid each server.

I played with Meta class/tree races aswell. I just got bored. They were as if ready cooked and given unhealthy fast food compared to older builds of old days which allways left an opening to twist and turn around the builds and create something different.

I really love ddo and respect develoment team anyhow offering only a single type of weapon or ability stat then grossly empowring it to stomp anything else we played and had fun (roleplay builds allways functioned well. There was no wrong picks) is not good.

Compared to war, inq and similar cookie cutters, various of old builds fall back hard. Some can still end the quest run or dungeon but with lots of luck, tons of pot chugging and praying lag doesnt ruin the to hit and to chug chains. The difference between ready given and player made builds are so obvious. Should not be.


Just to note I still have hope that when us remaining loyal players support and enjoy the game , the developers and the guys behind the curtains still hear us. I know there re people who care for the game and care for the old and young grumpy players out there.



https://image.iol.co.za/image/1/process/620x349?source=https://inm-baobab-prod-eu-west-1.s3.amazonaws.com/public/inm/media/file/1/2073694/1475046507/image/1655717446.jpg

An ordinary DDO player with good hopes...

Again, this is great. I never said everyone plays certain builds. I simply put forth that there is a noticeable amount of people playing meta builds on the server I play on.

[Ashlayna]

All this is good info, but Im not really sure why you're giving it to me. I don't look at who joins a group and think, "ahh fotm". I just happen to notice when there are zero melee or zero spell casters, or whatever for multiple lives. I don't really care what you play or why you play it unless you come to me asking for help. Otherwise Im usually just looking at peoples level split to determine how to best tackle the challenge in front of us. I could care less what people choose to play, I was simply commenting on a point I disagreed with earlier in the thread. So continue to play what you want for the reasons you want and know I don't expect any justification on why you do so.

I'm simply pointing out that just because a current build is considered FotM, it doesn't mean that that's the reason you'll see one in a group. I included you because of your statement that your experience matches the other poster, and I wanted to address the point that just because it's there doesn't mean it's there because it's FotM. I have guild mates that seldom run anything but casters, and some that have melee exclusives. I was discussing a build yesterday with one guild mate that's planning 12 Wiz, 6 Fighter, 2 Arti, going melee, so they're out there, but depending on what difficulty you play, you may not see melee much. I play assassin myself, and have for years, and enjoy it immensely in a group setting, where I can assassinate spiders and beholders. I do get some good natured ribbing for using my guild as bait, but, it is what it is. I do a lot of solo work or solo with a hire on it as well, and the hireling union has sent me more than one complaint about using their members in the same fashion, bait. So there are a lot of contributing factors to why you may see more, or less of something that isn't directly tied to the premise of "everyone's playing FotM", which is what I replied to.

[Oxarhamar]

This thread has exceeding it's usefulness.
Time to move on.

This was true at the first post ????

[SpardaX]

But I'd pay for a setting that I couldn't roflstomp that wasn't just all Reapers all the time.
It would freshen the whole game for me even if it was the same rewards as r1-10.
But that's just me. You may feel differently.



This is probably going to sound flippant and rude. But I really don't mean it that way. Read my signature to see why.

There IS a way you can pay money to get content that you can't, as you put it "roflstomp", that is not just reapers all the time.

It's called a new character slot, and it costs about 6 or 700 ddo points. Then go play Elite or R1. You'll have a good time.

When the first hardcore server was being tested, I remember seeing a forum post by (based on his forum name / title) a triple ultimate everything all lives completionist. And their post boiled down to "A kobold just 1 shot me in R1 with a lightning bolt. This is obviously wrong. Please fix."

And the devs responded with "No no, that seems about right. What's the problem?"

To which they responded, "That doesn't happen to me on the live server, so obviously something is wrong"

And this is where I came in, and said (And Im going to TL;DR this for you)
"Your name thing implies you have all the past lives. If you do, then *maths happens* You're used to soaking about 35 - 40% + 36 elemental damage right from level 1, WHILE NAKED. Add in armor, that number goes up. I don't know the exact number that a shaman throwing lightning bolts does, damage wise. But for those playing at home, a 35% soak with an additional 30 (ship buff resist) 6 (3 ranger PLs) taken out, at low levels is reducing that damage by roughly half." (Give or take probably about 5%)

HALF.

And I ended my reply by saying, "Welcome back to 1st life. Where the game isn't a cake walk."

There are a lot of past lives in this game. Like, 130 or so I think these days. And each one adds a small buff. And so people look at them and say "Meh, even with all of those, it wouldn't be that big a difference." It IS that big a difference. You don't notice it over time, since each one takes days (for the best) / weeks (for most) or even months (for me at least) to get even one. If you don't routinely go back to first life characters to experience them, you'll slowly forget as your higher power becomes your new "normal", and you just continue on slowly over time until an Ultimate Trip Comp is your new gauge of "Normal", and you just think the whole game is a cake walk. But really, it's not.

If you want to play the game, and you want it to be interesting, go and make your own fun. They don't need to introduce ultra mega reaper. The fact that you feel like you NEED ultra mega reaper, suggests to me, that character is maybe finished for now. Like Completionist says, "You win DDO". So maybe it's time to go start a new one?

Sincerely, the guy with currently 52 or 53 DIFFERENT characters.

P.S.: If on the flip side however, you want to both "Have a game that is challenging" while you also "Want to keep your OP broken character", well I mean, I just hope I don't have to point out how those 2 goals might...they might not line up with each other? You might see how their kinda conflicting?

[phillymiket]

This is probably going to sound flippant and rude.
No it doesn't. It's fine.

And please don't take this as being rude...

But I know that you know that I know that I can start a new character and play naked.
Everybody knows that.
I doubt in the long history of that suggestion has anyone ever found it acceptable.
That's because they've already thought of it and rejected it - which is why they're posting.
And again no offence...
But that suggestion is not made to be accepted, it's made as a way of dismissing someone's concerns.
"If you don't want to take this perfectly good solution, then that's your problem", is how that's supposed to end.

Anyway, i have, of course, considered that and don't want to ditch my characters every time they outgrow elite.
For the usual reasons, I suppose.

Now hardcore league does sounds great.
I'll certainly try HCL but, alas, it's a temporary side-show and not a full time way you can play.

Anyway, my post was more to try and find a money incentive for DDO to take a pass at balancing the whole game.
Because I'm convinced that profit motive is the only way it will happen.
And also I just personally don't like the Reaper system. Never have.
Others do. That's fine.
Making unrealistic and unpopular suggestions is kind of my thing. :)

[Ashlayna]

No it doesn't. It's fine.

And please don't take this as being rude...

But I know that you know that I know that I can start a new character and play naked.
Everybody knows that.
I doubt in the long history of that suggestion has anyone ever found it acceptable.
That's because they've already thought of it and rejected it - which is why they're posting.
And again no offence...
But that suggestion is not made to be accepted, it's made as a way of dismissing someone's concerns.
"If you don't want to take this perfectly good solution, then that's your problem", is how that's supposed to end.

Anyway, i have, of course, considered that and don't want to ditch my characters every time they outgrow elite.
For the usual reasons, I suppose.

Now hardcore league does sounds great.
I'll certainly try HCL but, alas, it's a temporary side-show and not a full time way you can play.

Anyway, my post was more to try and find a money incentive for DDO to take a pass at balancing the whole game.
Because I'm convinced that profit motive is the only way it will happen.
And also I just personally don't like the Reaper system. Never have.
Others do. That's fine.
Making unrealistic and unpopular suggestions is kind of my thing. :)

Except that it wasn't his suggestion, it was a depiction of what a triple completionist can expect from a lightning bolt at low level, with no gear on, just from buffs from past lives and the guild ship buffs. It seems to be a fairly accurate assessment, from all I can tell. I can demonstrate some of this even w/out all of that. A level 3 rogue, vs a level 3 FvS in the same quest, taking the same lightning bolt: The rogue, who gets evasion at level 2, might, depending on the roll, avoid half damage, at least. The FvS won't. Note that the "at least" isn't taking any buffs/gear/pot resistances into consideration, just the passive feat. Taking a positive Reflex Save into account, the rogue is likely to survive, while the FvS may well die. No running around naked required, just a difference in class.

Now, make that FvS a triple completionist, what's likely to happen?

[Seph1roth5]

**** this thread is way too big...and whiny. I'm all for balancing. It'd be great if they would bump up some of the underpowered styles (2-handed, bows) rather than bring inquis down a lot. Or, it'd be great if they would just nerf inquis specifically and not hit IPS.

[phillymiket]

No running around naked required

I meant purposefully gimping my gear to a great degree. Not playing, like, literally naked.
Because even regular end chest named gear is too powerful for this playstyle.
Hence "playing naked".

I have 40 slots, 4 completionists, lord knows how many cumulative PLs in every shape and class.
I'm totally aware of the concept of alts.
And I'm totally aware how to play without legacy advantages.
This is not the droid someone complaining about end game will ever be looking for.

But it's fine.
I made a suggestion that didn't work for SpardaX.
SpardaX made a suggestion that didn't work for me.
No biggie.

[Tuxedoman96]

Worth noting that there are many ways of getting information to us without the use of nonconstructive criticism. Enthusiasm is appreciated, vitriol is not. We're human, too.

I think that skews the perception of how an audience reacts to changes. That's not to say that we should be using off-hand remarks that are irrelevant to facts, but one should not confuse a very harsh review with non-constructive feedback. Let's take feedback off the game and apply it to a scenario with more drastic consequences for this skewed perception.

Let's pretend that you're in the doctor's office. Let's say that the doctor hands you a sheet, where you answer how well you feel, from 1 to 10 - with 10 being perfect, hale, nothing wrong at all and having the time of your life; and 1 being you should probably be put on the operating table ASAP. Now imagine if, in this scenario, the doctor instead gave you a sheet that went from 5 to 10 - 10 again being completely healthy, but 5 being that you're a little concerned that something might be wrong. Without the having the other values (1 to 4) on the answer sheet, how is the doctor going to know that you need to go to the ER as opposed to sitting on the bed for a regular checkup? Now of course I know there'd be more to this in this scenario, but the point remains (taking it back to the previous issue) that emotional statements can serve to measure the severity of the impact of the changes, which should be as much of a concern as the reasoning behind the reactions.

In all honesty, if "vitriol" should be muted, enthusiasm should also be muted. That way we have a much more neutral perspective of the changes and it doesn't seem like the devs are doing alright even if they aren't (and I'm not saying they are or aren't, mind). Personally, though, this would still be bad, because then it'd be difficult to say that the players are actually still passionate once we reach this point, and the game might as well be decommissioned. (You can think of it like this: if there isn't really something of a strong response - positive or negative - for the game ever, then the players likely no longer really have much of an interest in it.)