Metamagic Feats, which are best?

[Chaosticket1]

Metamagic Feats improve nothing passively, but they give characters the option to make trade-offs in higher cost for certain bonus. But which ones are better than the others? They all seem to run on the idea of "long-term gains" as the cost increases are prohibitive early on, but later you can afford to spend the extra spell points for usually double the effectiveness.

Spell-Like abilities are reported(I havent tested) to also benefit from Metamagics, but without the drawbacks.

On spellcaster's Enhancement trees the "Efficient X" lines are high value, cutting the additional spell point costs of using metamagic by up to 40%

=====================================
Extend Spell costs 10 points and doubles the length of time a buffing spell lasts. Early on its not much use because most Level 1 spells cost 10 points so its cheaper to just cast the buff again, when you need it. It becomes substantially more useful with higher tier spells that cost 20-50 points and in some cases only lasts a few minutes.

Heighten Spell raises the cost of a spell by 5 points for every level up to Spell Level 9. It can be very costly to always have your spells cost 45+ points, but having up to a +8 on DC checks is quite useful so your spells actually affect enemies.

Quicken spell costs 10 points and cuts down on the casting time. This allows many impractical long cast spells useful in combat.

Maximize, Empower, and the Epic Embolden spell raise the Spell Power for damage spells. In Theory thats about a 150%/75%/75% improvement respectively, but the costs would be incredible. I think the cost increase would be greater than the damage bonus?

Enlarge spell costs 10 points and increases the range, but not area of spells. In theory this would allow you to snipe enemies with attack spells outside their aggro range. I REALLY dont know if this one is worth it?

==========================
A Wizard has 5 free Bonus feats that are usually Metamagic Feats. This gives them a lot of options.

Other spellcasters have fewer choices which makes the choices for feats tight. Rangers and Paladins have the worst options so taking Metamagic feats seems a waste. They would be better off taking Mental Toughness to help with their low Spell Points.

My present character is a Cleric with the Quicken, Maximize, and Extend spell metamagics as well as Spell Penetration and Mental Toughness. Heighten Spell might be useful?

[RAFAR]

Quicken - not only to cast faster, but to prevent getting interrupted in combat. Concentration skill works much better nowadays (and therefore important for scrolls such as Heal or Raise/Res), but will never completely replace this feat. I don't consider Quicken "worth it", but mandatory, for all builds that use spells in combat.

Extend - the long lasting buffs (1 min per CL) don't need to be extended further, they already last longer than your sp pool between shrines. Short duration buffs however, like displacement, haste etc can benefit well from extend. Not many builds have feat slots for it, however.

Enlarge - a great option to CC and instakill stuff before they can even see/attack/debuff you (beholders especially). Mass hold / circle of death / greater command on a group before it breaks up and rush towards you? Yes please! For a sorcerer, it's a no brainer imo, he has the sp pool to handle it, no problem. For wizard, it's an easy pick with all those bonus feats. For other classes, decide if you want to go DC casting style (pick it) or just blaster-nuker style (not required).

Maximize/Empower/Intensify/(Empower Heal) - these pump the damaging (healing) SLAs well, especially at lower levels when your base spell power is low. Not worth using on normal spells as the extra cost is much higher than simply casting it 2 or 3 times. So, if you are going to use damaging/healing sla-s, pick these up. If only normal spells, you'll probably won't need these.

Heighten and Embolden - these basically give you +1 DC for +5 spell points. The lower level spell you use, the higher the extra cost, but, some lower level spells can still outperform higher level ones thanks to this metamagic. Pick it if you want to use dc based spells for instakill/cc, pick embolden too if your spells start getting saved at. For a blaster-nuker, these are a bit less important (but a save still means -50% or even-100% damage!)


For a cleric, I would definitely take Heighten, but use it sparingly, only for the most important spells: slay living, destruction, command, greater command, dismissal, banishment, cometfall, implosion, and the domain sla-s ofc.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Spell-Like abilities are reported(I havent tested) to also benefit from Metamagics, but without the drawbacks.


Yep, they do - no extra SP cost at all for using metamagics with SLAs (which metamagics can be applied to an SLA will vary, but is basically the same as the ones that'd work if casting from the spellbook) & that's the entire point, to give you some cheap & powerful options so you don't have to worry as much about SP conservation... if you have a metamagic that can apply to it, there's no real reason you shouldn't be using it.

The general purpose behind maximise & empower, is time - the SP cost of using 1 is higher & will be even more if you use both, but sometimes you just need to burn an enemy down as fast as you can to minimise the chance that they can do damage to you & your party.

Extend spell isn't generally needed for a lot of the more standard buffs like resist energy, shield, blur etc. but for the short-lived ones it can make a big difference since it'll ensure they don't run out at an inopportune time & if the base cost is more than 15sp, then it'll be cheaper to extend it than recast too.

Quicken is IMO essential - making sure your casting can't be interrupted is a big boost, particularly for healing :) I generally keep 2 copies of a couple of healing spells in my hotbars, 1 will be the quickened version within easy reach for mid-combat & the other will be non-quickened for out of combat use.

Enlarge spell is very handy, particularly for instakills & crowd control, so you can neutralise troublesome enemies from a safer distance - and hey, if the group of mobs are conveniently immobilised just as your party members arrive that's just a handy thing :D

Heighten spell is an interesting one, as it's main use is to make lower level spells more viable in higher level content - in practice as an arcane you'll likely only really be using it on otto's disco ball & web, and as a divine greater command & cometfall will probably be your best bet.

[C-Dog]

Spell-Like abilities are reported(I havent tested) to also benefit from Metamagics, but without the drawbacks.
Confirmed.

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Spell-like_ability (2nd paragraph, etc.)

[Chaosticket1]

Metamagics are much more useful for the Wizard as previously stated. The Wizard has 3 enhancement trees and all 3 have Spell-like Abilities to benefit from various metamagics, the Archmage tree having up to 7 SLAs at a time, and can unlock more from the Pale Master and/or Eldritch Knight trees.

A Cleric is less benefited because it only has 1 enhancement tree, Divine Disciple, with up to 4 SLAs. Cleric doesnt have as many Feats to use and also has to split those Feats for Melee abilities.

Druid only has 1 enhancement tree with SLAs, and doesnt benefit much from Extend spell much because its less reliant on Buffing spells. It also has the Melee/Spell feat splitting problem.

Sorcerer only has 3 SLAs in each of the different elemental trees.
================================================== ======
Enlarge spell is the #1 Metamagic I want to know about. It may be Awesome or Useless.
If it actually increased spell Area it would be quite good for AOE spells, but it just works on maximum shooting range for "ray" attack spells? I am rarely in a position to shoot from long distance as enemies aggro and charge en mass.

Enhancements:
Of all the Efficient Metamagic enhancements Efficient Heighten seem the best. Quicken seems like one of the most used Metamagics at high levels, reducing the cost of a spell by 1-4 points doesnt come out well especially when you use Quicken on spells would costs about 50, so you would save about 5-10% total. Efficient Heighten on the other hand would help considerably on the lowest level spells. -2 Spells points isnt much, but multiply that times 8 and those low level spells would be very useful, that is IF any low level spells were worth the DC increase.

Are the Efficient Metamagic enhancement bad choices? They take 2 Action/Enhancement points per rank, only work on individual Metamagics, and in return you save about 1-5% off the total cost of a spell with Metamagic's attached.

[Kinerd]

one important note is that by right clicking on any spell/sla on your hotbar you can set each Metamagic always on, always off, or standard (based on which Metamagics you have activated). one useful application of this would be to set Panacea to never Heighten and Soundburst to always Heighten.

one smaller note is that Enlarge doesn't generally work on ray spells, they already have double range (although per the wiki Searing Light is an exception to this rule). the biggest use i find for a soloing caster is dealing with Beholders, since their anti magic does not extend to double range and clerics don't have a great ray palette to work with.

a cleric doesn't have to spend feats on melee stuff, they can go pure caster. if you have a dedicated melee option, though, the Beholder case is less relevant.

[RAFAR]

Metamagics are much more useful for the Wizard as previously stated. The Wizard has 3 enhancement trees and all 3 have Spell-like Abilities to benefit from various metamagics, the Archmage tree having up to 7 SLAs at a time, and can unlock more from the Pale Master and/or Eldritch Knight trees.

A Cleric is less benefited because it only has 1 enhancement tree, Divine Disciple, with up to 4 SLAs. Cleric doesnt have as many Feats to use and also has to split those Feats for Melee abilities.

Druid only has 1 enhancement tree with SLAs, and doesnt benefit much from Extend spell much because its less reliant on Buffing spells. It also has the Melee/Spell feat splitting problem.

Sorcerer only has 3 SLAs in each of the different elemental trees.
================================================== ======
Enlarge spell is the #1 Metamagic I want to know about. It may be Awesome or Useless.
If it actually increased spell Area it would be quite good for AOE spells, but it just works on maximum shooting range for "ray" attack spells? I am rarely in a position to shoot from long distance as enemies aggro and charge en mass.

Enhancements:
Of all the Efficient Metamagic enhancements Efficient Heighten seem the best. Quicken seems like one of the most used Metamagics at high levels, reducing the cost of a spell by 1-4 points doesnt come out well especially when you use Quicken on spells would costs about 50, so you would save about 5-10% total. Efficient Heighten on the other hand would help considerably on the lowest level spells. -2 Spells points isnt much, but multiply that times 8 and those low level spells would be very useful, that is IF any low level spells were worth the DC increase.

Are the Efficient Metamagic enhancement bad choices? They take 2 Action/Enhancement points and in return you save about 1-5% off the total cost of a spell with Metamagic's attached.

Ray spells already have double range for free, the Enlarge metamagic can increase the range of other spells to ray-like distance. In case of area of effect spells, you can land their center 2x further, either on a targeted mob or by targeting yourself and aiming with reticule in mouselook mode. The spell's area size stays the same.

Efficient metamagics: pick those that you use the most. (quicken, heighten, enlarge)

Clerics and slas: don't forget about caster type domains and epic destiny abilities...

[Cordovan]

Good thread, useful info.

[fatherpirate]

If your using SLA that are attacks, Maximize is your number 1 choice, followed by (Enhance? not sure of the name, give 75 spell power) as number 2 (they stack)
together you get 175 spell power added to your SLA attack for FREE. It can turn a lvl 1 attack spell into a trash mob sweeper.

If your a sorc, these 2 are a must.

Some may say heighten is better because they are less likely to save. If your doing 275% Damage, saving might be non-relevant.

Just my take on it.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I love Quicken for Heal/Reconstruct/any Spell Like Ability/Epic Destiny abilities like Rejuvenation Cocoon.

If you are going to go Draconic, then Empower and Maximize are fantastic.

If you are going to throw instant kills, then having Enlarge is a bigger quality of life improvement than you can imagine. Finger that beholder before you're in range of its anti-magic cone.

Eschew Materials is an AMAZING feat for when you're having a bad day and you just really need to laugh about something. Obviously don't take this on a character, but it's great to remember when you need a chuckle.

My very favorite Metamagic feat is Empower Healing. That's not an option for Wizards/Sorcerers, but it's great for any class that can take it to give an extra kick to Epic healing.

[FuzzyDuck81]

If your using SLA that are attacks, Maximize is your number 1 choice, followed by (Enhance? not sure of the name, give 75 spell power) as number 2 (they stack)
together you get 175 spell power added to your SLA attack for FREE. It can turn a lvl 1 attack spell into a trash mob sweeper.
.

maximise is 150, empower spell is 75, that's 225 in total - and yes, it's a significant boost, even something like the humble sonic blast SLA in the bard's spellsinger tree becomes a surprisingly effective aoe damage dealer through mid heroics in non-reaper content & things like the sun bolt & cometfall SLAs for angel of vengeance favoured souls are pretty murderous once they've been boosted.

[AlmGhandi]

Thank you for attempting to produce a guide.


Spell-Like abilities are reported(I havent tested) to also benefit from Metamagics, but without the drawbacks.


This is the thing that helps sorcs shine...


On spellcaster's Enhancement trees the "Efficient X" lines are high value, cutting the additional spell point costs of using metamagic by up to 40%

For my sorc lives they are of NO value.... because the build lives mostly from the SLAs.



It can be very costly to always have your spells cost 45+ points, but having up to a +8 on DC checks is quite useful so your spells actually affect enemies.

This also depends what other gear you have and what content you are running... a first life toon running through some high level quests... +8 is not going to mean much besides all the other things you can get.


Quicken spell costs 10 points and cuts down on the casting time. This allows many impractical long cast spells useful in combat.

Is there a list of the long casting time spells that this helps be useful in combat?


Maximize, Empower, and the Epic Embolden spell raise the Spell Power for damage spells. In Theory thats about a 150%/75%/75% improvement respectively, but the costs would be incredible. I think the cost increase would be greater than the damage bonus?

Yes. But stick it on your SLAs.


Enlarge spell costs 10 points and increases the range, but not area of spells. In theory this would allow you to snipe enemies with attack spells outside their aggro range. I REALLY dont know if this one is worth it?

Very very much. Casting "destruction" at the range of a ray spell....
Casting your SLAs (Acid Ball....) at the range of a ray spell for no extra cost...


A Wizard has 5 free Bonus feats that are usually Metamagic Feats.

Oh ok. Good to know.



Rangers and Paladins have the worst options so taking Metamagic feats seems a waste. They would be better off taking Mental Toughness to help with their low Spell Points.


My pally and ranger lives never really had problems running out of spell points. If TRing… past life Sorc works better (for me) than Mental Toughness. Never really saw the point of Mental Toughness on a Pally or Ranger.
Better off farming vibrant purple Ioun Stone.

[AlmGhandi]

Some may say heighten is better because they are less likely to save. If your doing 275% Damage, saving might be non-relevant.

Just my take on it.

Guess it depends on the flavor of Sorc…

Those SLAs with "Save to take no damage" (Ice Im looking at you) really make life harder in low level reaper.

[niknight]

While the discussion so far has been excellent, one thing that I think should be pointed out are the two "free" metamagics that you can get from Tier 5 and Tier 6 of Fatesinger. The free Embolden is an amazing boon that a lot of people seem to be overlooking. If you're looking to try and play some type of Gish, Fatesinger gives you a lot of the tools to make that happen.

[Coffey]

Choosing the right spells for the job also goes a long way in getting max damage or effect on the target. Knowing the enemies weakness can allow you to use spells like heightened soundburst more effectively if they have low fortitude saves for example.

[C-Dog]

Be careful how you look at things, Chaos - you're close to doing it again...


Metamagics are much more useful for the Wizard as previously stated. The Wizard has 3 enhancement trees and all 3 have Spell-like Abilities to benefit from various metamagics...
These two statements are not directly related.

Comparing SLA's, like any enhancements, is not a simple "X# > Y# therefore X is better than Y" analysis. The final balance must include questions like "How important are those SLA's to this particular build?", "How useful/powerful...?", and "How often will those SLA's be used, vs. actual (better) Spells?".

For each class, and for each build, those questions can differ, and the answers will differ.

For example, the EK SLA's are buffs, so MM's like Maximize/Empower are not relevant, leaving only Extend (and, with some, Enlarge for the rare occasion, if you have it and since it's free anyway).

For Archmagi, even if they choose Evocation, they often have much better spells to use, so even "Metamagicked for free" does not make them preferable to standard Spellcasting (again, depending on the situation).

And so on.


Sorcerer only has 3 SLAs in each of the different elemental trees.
Heh, "only" he says. :cool:

Sorcerer is typically a blaster, and all 3 of those SLA's are core blasting spells. Many Sorcerers have a spell rotation that is ONLY SLA's, 3 of each chosen element, those 6 SLA's round and round, with "better" spells only saved for special occasions (or not at all, if they don't anything "better" yet). Or 3 of their primary school, with others sprinkled in only occasionally. So, for a Sorcerer, SLA's are their bread and butter, or can (/should?) be.

At the other range of the spectrum, some non-casters have Racial SLA's that are so important that those builds squeeze in a Meta or three to apply there. It all depends on the final balance, the final goal.


Enlarge spell is the #1 Metamagic I want to know about. It may be Awesome or Useless.
Yes, if it did more it would be better, and it's not the same as 3.5 - no news there.

But the ability to take a shorter-range spell (anything less than a standard ray) and reach out and touch someone at long range, easily before monsters are aware of you, is huge. Starting the battle off with that favorite Crowd-Control AoE, and ~then~ see what's left to run toward you? Yuge.

And it takes "Touch" range effects, like Shocking Grasp, and makes them short-range - and few casters ever want to have to move up to "Touch" range just to use a good spell. :rolleyes:

[Chaosticket1]

They are related. Wizard can purchase the most Metamagic feats at 12 (of 10) feats level 1-20, and the 2 Epic Metamagic feats at levels 21-30. In Total that means the Wizard has 4 "surplus" feats.

The Wizard enhancement trees have the most spell like abilities at one time, and because of its high number of total feats & easy optimization have the most spell points with or without SLAs. That makes it the best class to use Metamagic.

It should be possible for a Wizard to entirely rely on Spell Like Abilities with all the Metamagic's toggled on.

No other class can do that anywhere nearly as effective. Artificier is second though.
================================
I look at my Cleric and it has obvious flaws. Say I pick a Darkness Divine Disciple. Those SLAs inflict Negative Enemy Damage, which heals Undead and those are fairly common. If not for that I would take this because I really need to find ways to do more damage as a Cleric.

The Light Divine Disciple SLAs are the same as spells the Cleric already has, but because they are SLAs they take longer to Cooldown, with Flame Strike SLA topping out at 3 times the cooldown as the actual spell. That and they have a dependency to target against Evil and Undead targets, opposite of the Darkness SLAs.

[C-Dog]

They are related.
Of course they are - but they are not directly related (which is what I said).

It's not a simple case of "more = superior", and that seems to be your only yardstick, and - again - despite what those who have more experience are telling you.

So, once again - and before I say anything untoward - I'm out.

GL w/ your build. Try to see that "simply more is not always better", that's it can be more complex than that. Or not, and learn by experience - that works too.
o/

[GrantAnderson]

They are related. Wizard can purchase the most Metamagic feats at 12 (of 10) feats level 1-20, and the 2 Epic Metamagic feats at levels 21-30. In Total that means the Wizard has 4 "surplus" feats.

The Wizard enhancement trees have the most spell like abilities at one time, and because of its high number of total feats & easy optimization have the most spell points with or without SLAs. That makes it the best class to use Metamagic.

It should be possible for a Wizard to entirely rely on Spell Like Abilities with all the Metamagic's toggled on.

No other class can do that anywhere nearly as effective. Artificier is second though.
================================
I look at my Cleric and it has obvious flaws. Say I pick a Darkness Divine Disciple. Those SLAs inflict Negative Enemy Damage, which heals Undead and those are fairly common. If not for that I would take this because I really need to find ways to do more damage as a Cleric.

The Light Divine Disciple SLAs are the same as spells the Cleric already has, but because they are SLAs they take longer to Cooldown, with Flame Strike SLA topping out at 3 times the cooldown as the actual spell. That and they have a dependency to target against Evil and Undead targets, opposite of the Darkness SLAs.
I leveled my Druid to 20 on rotating SLAs - Produce Flame, Creeping Cold, Call Lightning and (MVP) Word of Balance, along with Storm of Vengeance near the end. They were Maximised, Empowered and Enlarged (and Enlarge was great for dropping Words of Balance on far-off beholders).

[Kebtid]

I would suggest for most classes, to focus on proper gear and sorc past llifes first.
What that allows is simple, if you have a gsteel spellpoints item, archmagi item (fanion as example or ioun trinket) and craft yourself a insightful wizardry item, and if the player focuses to maximize spellpower, it will mean that on an class in heroic at least, you can run with all metas on.
What that produces is a wave of efficient leveling where not every single spell needs to be modified, but metas can just be turned out without caring about spellpower cost.

Also item from abbot reduce spellpoints cost for burst boss fights, i would suggest to get those as well, they are useful not just for heroic but at endgame as well.

I have noticed that as a sorc player, while building this way, that i can sacrifice defenses //ihave minnimal, just a shelter item at all levels, sometimes false life, i do have con items but that is about it, and when i focus on spellpoints and spellpower alone with discount items, that i can effectively run r4 -r6 solo in heroics (keep in mind, we are talking about maxed gear here), i have completed multiple r10 solos as a heroic sorc as well and dont even do them for achivements but because its efficient rxp.


What i want to introduce to the player base is a change in mentality, do not custom spells but instead focus on getting gear that allows every single spell you cast to be cast on maximum potency.


Just by focusing on spellpower and spellpoints even fresh characters (life 2 3 maybe 1 if you farm relevant gear on alt) can run r1-r3 without a care about spellpoints on every class that is meant to spellcast in heroics.

Try it out and report if you had the same experience as i had.

Items that are relevant:
Gsteel with skills to int bonus with spellpoints, spellcraft and ins spellcraft item, best at levels spellpower items, possibly caster level increase items if available, sp discount items, rloft stacking spellpowe item, ghero pots, spellpower pots, event pot etc etc, alot to add but those are enough for start (can skip limited event items).

I have run over 60 lifes like this in my ddo career and i have personally never had any problems.


It is different at cap, but depends yet again on items and discount items available

[Wipey]

Quicken is must for everything with blue bar, no exceptions.
Heighten and Embolden for any kind of DC caster, and if you are serious about casting, you don't compromise DCs.
115+ in your primary school, 105+ secondary schools at least. Much better with 120+.

Maximize and Empower is okay for levelling, I tend to swap those at cap.

Empower Heal is okay choice for pally, ranger if you like Cocoon too and didn't take Maximize.

Extend and Eschew is pointless.

For castery cleric : Heighten, Embolden, Empower Heal, Quicken, Enlarge.
PS: cleric does pathetic damage, Flame Strike and other cleric SLAs are terrible, just forget it. Heal, instakill and some cc instead. Rebuke, LGS dust on bosses.

[MeliCat]

Love enlarge. Love love love enlarge.

I have a tanky heal cleric. And a DC cleric. DC casters it's just too useful not to take. Tanky cleric I don't currently have it but more and more I am thinking to swap it out....

[ned_ellis]

Metamagic Feats... SNIP

Other spellcasters have fewer choices which makes the choices for feats tight. Rangers and Paladins have the worst options so taking Metamagic feats seems a waste. They would be better off taking Mental Toughness to help with their low Spell Points.

My present character is a Cleric with the Quicken, Maximize, and Extend spell metamagics as well as Spell Penetration and Mental Toughness. Heighten Spell might be useful?

I think the OP's post needs two answers : 1) Metamagics in general and 2) for his cleric.

1) I'd say they can be fundamentally split into three categories :
- Spell Power (maximise, empower, intensify, empower healing)
- Spell DC (heighten, embolden)
- Spell Utility (quicken, extend, enlarge, eschew materials)
- we could add a fourth if we consider Spell Penetration, Spell Focus:School and Mental Toughness which aren't technically metamagics but often lumped together...

Caveat : Which you should choose depends largely on your build and the quest difficulty you are aiming at running...

Whilst the first category is mostly for 'blaster' type casters (evokers and conjurors), the second category is mostly for 'DC' casters (necromancy, illusion, enchantment, transmutation schools).
Why 'mostly'? Because a blaster gets reduced damage if saved against and because DC casters need to also have some damage spells as back-up.

Without going into individual builds and classes I think a few notes should be made with regards specific utility metamagics :
- All the metamagics in the 'spell power' category are especially valuable for the builds that use sla's and direct damage spells.
- Empower Healing is also very usefull for non-caster classes (I can only speak for ranger as they have the spell points to maintain it - maybe others need the MT feats...?) to give some oomph to their heals as they can't build as high devotion spell power as casters can.
- Eschew Materials is largely useless (as in not worth a feat slot, not as an absolute) as it basically only saves you inventory space and platinum.
- Quicken allows for not being interrupted and faster casting animations which impact more or less depending on class (wizard and cleric cast slower than sorcerers and favoured souls), quest difficulty level and concentration skill investment. Generally, many classes have some slower casting time spells (heal, symbols, summons, dancing balls, etc.) that need this feat to be at all considered in or near combat anyway.
- Extend, as many have said, is not needed bar short buffs (displacement, haste, pale master aura, etc.). Imo it's a must-have only on a pale master or hybrid melee type build.
- Enlarge is very usefull on higher difficulties where one hit often equals death
- Spell Focus : Schools, allows you access to Epic Destiny enhancements along with the DC benefits
- Mental Toughness doesn't have the same impact it once did but can still be handy for some builds, especially if you can grab the EpicMT (most pure caster classes will be better served choosing something else; oddly I still keep it on my Druid for lack of alternatives)
- Spell Penetration is for DC casters (iirc exclusively?) and the level of investment is dependant on your Past Life Feats and Enhancement Action Point spend

2) For your cleric, not knowing the build or domain or what the aims of the build are, I would recommend :
- some 'Spell Power' ones to use on your sla's, especially for leveling (I only needed Maximise on my Death Cleric); if you are a blaster build I would keep them, if not you could swop out later.
- Quicken is helpful for healing in combat and needed for certain spells as mentioned earlier
- at least one Spell Focus : School to make the most of the ED's if you are going into Epic play (mostly pure casters).
- If I wanted but had to choose, I would ditch Empower Spell for Intensify Spell as it also gives you some spell points.
- If you swing a sword then Extend comes in handy.
- I prefer DC builds so consider Embolden and Heighten must haves (and, feat slots allowing for it, would take them on blaster builds too).

With regards spending AP to reduce the cost of the metamagics, I would avoid it unless for some reason you have many points to spare. There are items, especially at cap, that can allow you to reduce the costs (of note : meridian fragment). Otherwise, as others have mentioned, choosing which meta(s) to apply to which spells and in which circumstances, should be enough to avoid absurd spell point costs when using metamagics. Having the same spell prepared on your hotbar with differnt options toggled is a good idea and much better than using the metas as toggles.

My 2cp's worth...if you want more specific help we need more info on your build. ;)

[ned_ellis]

They are related. Wizard can purchase the most Metamagic feats at 12 (of 10) feats level 1-20, and the 2 Epic Metamagic feats at levels 21-30. In Total that means the Wizard has 4 "surplus" feats.

The Wizard enhancement trees have the most spell like abilities at one time, and because of its high number of total feats & easy optimization have the most spell points with or without SLAs. That makes it the best class to use Metamagic.

It should be possible for a Wizard to entirely rely on Spell Like Abilities with all the Metamagic's toggled on.

No other class can do that anywhere nearly as effective. Artificier is second though.
================================

C-Dog is right - you are equivocating quantity with efficiency.
If you wanted to be an Evoker Wizard and kill everything with Magic Missile and Cyclonic Blast be my guest but I predict it will end badly! :p
Also, depending on which Archmage school you are picking would imply different metamagics to choose; for eg : evocation would want maximise and empower, abjuration would want extend, enchantment would want heighten and embolden, illusion would add extend to that...etc.
I would argue Sorcerer's benefit more directly from metamagics but wizards need them to make for more flexible casters by picking and mixing with their larger spell selection - this is where I would take heed of what others have already said : choosing the right spell for the job at hand (and then eventually applying the right metamagic to it).



I look at my Cleric and it has obvious flaws. Say I pick a Darkness Divine Disciple. Those SLAs inflict Negative Enemy Damage, which heals Undead and those are fairly common. If not for that I would take this because I really need to find ways to do more damage as a Cleric.

The Light Divine Disciple SLAs are the same as spells the Cleric already has, but because they are SLAs they take longer to Cooldown, with Flame Strike SLA topping out at 3 times the cooldown as the actual spell. That and they have a dependency to target against Evil and Undead targets, opposite of the Darkness SLAs.

If you go Dark Disciple you can fall back on Turn Undead, direct damage light spells and Undeath to Death spell to deal with negative energy resistant enemies.
If you go Light Disciple you won't have that problem. And the sla's, even though they are lacklustre, with the Spell Power metamagic's applied should get you through heroic levelling no problem...

For cleric casters in general, I would however take heed of Wipey's post - whilst admittedly only aimed at high level play, it is all very valid.

[Jerevth]

There is no hard, fast rule for which metas to take. Plan out your character and then stick to the plan. All those shiny feats when you level suddenly seem more fun than what you planned but you're working toward an effective master of casting, not a Hodge-podge of mediocrity.

-Quicken- no interrupts if you get hit, and some spells take a long time to cast.

-I would recommend grabbing Maximize and Empower only after you have a SLA to put them on.

-Extend; It's a nice to have for the short-term buffs, yet, personally, I'll grab the others first.

-Enlarge is useful in select cases (Single target spells if you don't have a ray- great to draw them to you- but it shines with Mass Crowd control affects like Mass Hold, Mass Confusion, Cloud Kill, etc)

-My Rule of Thumb is: Maximize, Empower, and Quicken once I have the SLAs to hang them on). Later, Heighten when the CCs are starting to hit less.

*Clerics are decent, casting wise, if they draw on a caster domain- the Sun Domain really shines (NPI), as do a few other domains.

*FvS: I won't speak to this yet as a caster; I'm playing with the melee and crowd control aspects- Sound Burst, Greater Command and Cometfall (though "heighten" is definitely beneficial here).

*Wizards have a lot of spell slots available, but that allows you to tailor your hotbars for each quest; understanding the threats you'll face and adjusting as you go for a more effective short list is better than splashing all your spells in a frenzy. Wizards are more concerned with SP conservation than Sorcs; they have a larger tool box of available spells- choose the best spell for the job. A Wizard, though, can choose buff spells, damage spells, crowd control spells and still cast knock at the end of the fight to (Possibly) open the chest. (Rogues will always be better at popping locks.)

*A well built Sorcerer is a monster when it comes to damage, but his or her spell options will be narrow; every spell must be weighed at selection. But, as was said before, the SLAs are their bread and butter. Sorcerors are precise instruments with a narrow focus of mastery.

*Warlocks... So many SLAs. Every few levels I'll habitually right click everything on my primary hotbar that isn't a standard spell and make certain I assigned all available Metamagics. (In fact, Evard's Tentacles is the only standard spell I keep on my primary HB and that works well enough without metas.)

SLAs should always have all available, applicable Metas. The standard spells should get metas on a case-by-case basis depending on your needs at the time. Honestly, I'll never cast a standard combat spell (non-SLA) with metas on it from the primary hot-bar. New casters always complain about not having enough SPs- this is one reason why; they pile the metamagics on standard spells. Don't do it. A thirty point Magic Missile will not save the day, but it may very well drain the last of your SPs.

And more available spells do not make a "better" caster. It means the caster has more options. It's like comparing a Bowie Knife (sorc) with a Swiss Army Knife (Wiz). Each has their use and application if you use it right.

Finally, once every life, you can swap a feat for free by doing the Lockania quest in the marketplace (Answer some questions get a free feat swap with Fred over in house J. He lives under the garden near the teleporter. He's a charming lad.) Take Toughness as your first feat (Or whatever else you want) then, when you have a SLA to hang a Meta on, swap for the metamagic you think will best suit that SLA.

And hire Byron. If you are playing a squishy, you'll need him to carry you through the first few levels. Byron is great. Casters only become dangerous after they get a few levels/APs under their belts- Byron will help get you to that point.

[Kinerd]

They are related. Wizard can purchase the most Metamagic feats at 12 (of 10) feats level 1-20, and the 2 Epic Metamagic feats at levels 21-30. In Total that means the Wizard has 4 "surplus" feats.

The Wizard enhancement trees have the most spell like abilities at one time, and because of its high number of total feats & easy optimization have the most spell points with or without SLAs. That makes it the best class to use Metamagic.

It should be possible for a Wizard to entirely rely on Spell Like Abilities with all the Metamagic's toggled on.

No other class can do that anywhere nearly as effective. Artificier is second though.this only follows if all classes get the same SLAs, and have the same enhancements applied to them

neither is true

let's consider Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp
an Archmage can get a Chill Touch SLA for 2 SP and cooldown 6 seconds
an Air Savant can get a Shocking Grasp SLA for 2 SP and cooldown 4 seconds, and 80 Electric Spell Power, and +5 maximum caster level, AND bypass target's resistance and immunity to electricty

[Chaosticket1]

From what you say the only 2 Metamagics that are worth taking for anyone else are Heighten and Quicken. The Epic Metamagics have passive bonuses, but only to increasing the maximum Spell Points, so they too are a dubious value, with Embolden Spell being the better of the two.

Metamagic Feats are generally poor choices because they require both Feats and Spell Points. Only Spell-Like-Abilities can really benefit from the expenditure of finite amount of Feats because they can benefit without also costing additional Spell Points.

This discussion leads me to the conclusion that Metamagic Feats are not worth it for anyone but the Wizard. The Wizard can afford to purchase Metamagics and has the Spell-Like Abilities to actually use them. Without using Metamagic Feats they are a waste of a Feat.

I regret picking any Metamagic feats for my Cleric and Ill remember this for the future. A a Non-VIP Player I cant respec my Feats so I ruined my character.

[Jerevth]

From what you say the only 2 Metamagics that are worth taking for anyone else are Heighten and Quicken. The Epic Metamagics have passive bonuses, but only to increasing the maximum Spell Points, so they too are a dubious value, with Embolden Spell being the better of the two.

Metamagic Feats are generally poor choices because they require both Feats and Spell Points. Only Spell-Like-Abilities can really benefit from the expenditure of finite amount of Feats because they can benefit without also costing additional Spell Points.

This discussion leads me to the conclusion that Metamagic Feats are not worth it for anyone but the Wizard. The Wizard can afford to purchase Metamagics and has the Spell-Like Abilities to actually use them. Without using Metamagic Feats they are a waste of a Feat.

I regret picking any Metamagic feats for my Cleric and Ill remember this for the future. A a Non-VIP Player I cant respec my Feats so I ruined my character.

That isn't what he said.
Casters can be a challenge, but if you know where you want to focus, spell-wise, you'll be able to figure out the optimal feats for the character.
If you want crowd control you'll want Heighten
If you want to inflict damage, you want maximize and empower.

You can switch a feat for free by doing the Lockania Quest in the marketplace then talking to Fred.
After that, and a cooldown period, you can offer Fred a Siberys Dragonshard. https://ddowiki.com/page/Fred

VIP has nothing to do with it. And every character gets a Respec Heart of wood when they are made, and that allows you to change all your feats and spells. (But not class, name or gender.)

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/470423-Build-Repository

This will give you some good builds to model until you understand the intricacies. There are plenty of guidebooks you can google as well. There is no one answer to any build, though. This game allows you to make a unique character. It also allows you to make mistakes, but there are ways to rectify those mistakes.

If you are on Orien, shoot me a letter in game and I'll send you a Sib Shard for the second feat respec.
All is not lost for this character, but you can also make a new character and run with that if respec is too daunting a task at this time.

[ned_ellis]

From what you say the only 2 Metamagics that are worth taking for anyone else are Heighten and Quicken. The Epic Metamagics have passive bonuses, but only to increasing the maximum Spell Points, so they too are a dubious value, with Embolden Spell being the better of the two.

Metamagic Feats are generally poor choices because they require both Feats and Spell Points. Only Spell-Like-Abilities can really benefit from the expenditure of finite amount of Feats because they can benefit without also costing additional Spell Points.

This discussion leads me to the conclusion that Metamagic Feats are not worth it for anyone but the Wizard. The Wizard can afford to purchase Metamagics and has the Spell-Like Abilities to actually use them. Without using Metamagic Feats they are a waste of a Feat.

I regret picking any Metamagic feats for my Cleric and Ill remember this for the future. A a Non-VIP Player I cant respec my Feats so I ruined my character.

I'm sorry that's what you took away from the discussion; apart from one longbow toon, I have only played casters since I started playing this game and I don't think I have ever had less than 3 metamagic feats on any build. My current cleric has 4 metamagic feats and 5 spellcasting feats (spell pen, focus, etc.)...
The laqst piece of advice I'll try to give, is that to evaluate the actual 'value' of your feat choice also depends on the alternative feats you would pick in their steed - maybe you can use that to reconsider their efficacy? /shrug