R10s are easier than *normal* Too Hot Too Handle

[MeliCat]

R10s are easier than normal Too Hot Too Handle

Yes or no? What are your thoughts on this? Agree or disagree?


[edit - gah ... pls fix second 'too' in title to 'to' ... oops]

[Clemeit]

Normal THTH isn't very difficult. 95% of the mobs can be insta-killed. The raid is very short. The puzzles aren't hard once you've done them a couple of times. Most of the raid consists of standing in one spot beating on the boss.
We regularly pug it on Thelanis with 3 or 4 new players and succeed 90%+ of the time. No reaper points, crazy PLs, or maxed out builds required.

Also, it's a raid. It takes more communication, teamwork, and role assignments than quests do, where you can regularly run in completely blind and be just fine.

[MeliCat]

Normal THTH isn't very difficult. 95% of the mobs can be insta-killed. The raid is very short. The puzzles aren't hard once you've done them a couple of times. Most of the raid consists of standing in one spot beating on the boss.
We regularly pug it on Thelanis with 3 or 4 new players and succeed 90%+ of the time. No reaper points, crazy PLs, or maxed out builds required.

Also, it's a raid. It takes more communication, teamwork, and role assignments than quests do, where you can regularly run in completely blind and be just fine.

That is kind of not the point I was discussing. The question is that THTH is harder than R10s. Yes or no? Again this is opinion only - I don't know how to objectively prove this.

[C-Dog]

Q:
The question is that THTH is harder than R10s. Yes or no? A:
Normal THTH isn't very difficult... We regularly pug it on Thelanis with 3 or 4 new players and succeed 90%+ of the time. No reaper points, crazy PLs, or maxed out builds required...
@ MeliCat: I'm not sure what terms you'd use to describe R10's, but Clemeit's description sounds significantly easier than my experience. (Read: Yeah, C answered your question)

[mikarddo]

R10s are easier than normal Too Hot Too Handle

Yes or no? What are your thoughts on this? Agree or disagree?


[edit - gah ... pls fix second 'too' in title to 'to' ... oops]

Not so for me. I cant run R10 - but I can lead PUG raids successfully in LN THTH with most or all joining are not doing R10s.
If you had said LH THTH though I think you would have a point.

[Carpone]

THTH lag makes THTH difficult. Also, forgewraiths are cancer.

[Clemeit]

That is kind of not the point I was discussing. The question is that THTH is harder than R10s. Yes or no? Again this is opinion only - I don't know how to objectively prove this.

Thought that was a pretty clear answer. In case it wasn't:

No.

[Arkat]

LH THTH might be more difficult than a lot of R10s, but LN isn't all that hard if you're prepared for it and know what to do.

[Quikster]

LH THTH might be more difficult than a lot of R10s, but LN isn't all that hard if you're prepared for it and know what to do.

Agreed, although I can see how some would think this if they weren’t prepared or didn’t know the mechanics. The raid is very unforgiving and a poor group can get overwhelmed past the point of salvaging a win quickly. That is not the case for most R10’s where a party wipe doesn’t always equate to a loss.

[Avocado]

r10s are easier then thth because in r10s you dont get lag because of poorly coded spawning enemies and incorp mobs at that. SSG seriously needs to consider changing some of the mechanics in the raid. We wipe way too often in thth because once the lag kicks in you get overwhelmed by trash. Ive wiped significantly more times in thth because of lag then in any r10 for any reason.

We had a brief discussion about LH thth in that the lag becomes significantly worse and that is what makes hard way more challenging. We are essentially forced to run normal because of lag when we have the ability to complete hard or elite.

[noinfo]

R10s are easier than normal Too Hot Too Handle

Yes or no? What are your thoughts on this? Agree or disagree?


[edit - gah ... pls fix second 'too' in title to 'to' ... oops]

Pretty much, can carry a pug through R10 design of THTH not so much due to inconsistent mechanics.

[Clemeit]

Pretty much, can carry a pug through R10 design of THTH not so much due to inconsistent mechanics.

Can you describe "inconsistent"? Seems to be the same mechanics every time I've ever gone in there with pugs.

[noinfo]

Can you describe "inconsistent"? Seems to be the same mechanics every time I've ever gone in there with pugs.

LH or higher no instakills. Raids are exception to the normal rule regarding it in epic. Though the OP was talking LN the scaling from LN to LH is more the issue but it is what it is. LN is harder than most R10's imo. Can't remember the last time I wiped in an R10.

[Clemeit]

LH or higher no instakills. Raids are exception to the normal rule regarding it in epic. Though the OP was talking LN the scaling from LN to LH is more the issue but it is what it is. LN is harder than most R10's imo. Can't remember the last time I wiped in an R10.

Completely failing r10s is pretty rare thanks to Jibbers and shrines; not to mention you're never far from a safe area to take a breather and recover. The only thing that makes THTH more easy to fail is that it's much more difficult to recover from a complete/near wipe. Nowhere to run to. It's 100% effort for the entire duration - which is fine because you're only in that room for 10-15 minutes. No easy button, no safe spot. (Which is how raids should be but that's subjective and besides the point.) More wipes? Maybe. But "more wipes" isn't equivalent to "more difficult."

LH is a totally different conversation. If the thread had been "R10s are easier than Hard Too Hot to Handle" I'd agree unequivocally.

[Vorachtin]

THTH and PN are some of the best designed raids on paper in DDO, once you factor in the lag monster they cant seem to fix however they are/can be a disaster. THTH seems to get it worse than PN in my experience.

normal THTH, lag issues aside, is silly easy. Mechanics can mess you up if you don't know or ignore em which is how raids should be! And no, r10s are not easier than normal THTH by any stretch. people are running THTH normal parking bots inside for runes/loot pulls. There are a handful of really silly easy R10s similar to into the mists that sure you can just roll up an inquis and solo all day but those are not the norm.

[Dnarth]

That is kind of not the point I was discussing. The question is that THTH is harder than R10s. Yes or no? Again this is opinion only - I don't know how to objectively prove this.


That is exactly what you are discussing.
And no when there is open comm's about game play and mechanics and not a BS sess like running a r10.

Yes or no without discussion is weak.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

R10s are easier than normal Too Hot Too Handle

Yes or no? What are your thoughts on this? Agree or disagree?


[edit - gah ... pls fix second 'too' in title to 'to' ... oops]


Haven't tried R10s yet. But two and three manning R4-R6 successfully. and haven't been able to do THtH with 7....so....
Yes

[Quikster]

r10s are easier then thth because in r10s you dont get lag because of poorly coded spawning enemies and incorp mobs at that. SSG seriously needs to consider changing some of the mechanics in the raid. We wipe way too often in thth because once the lag kicks in you get overwhelmed by trash. Ive wiped significantly more times in thth because of lag then in any r10 for any reason.

We had a brief discussion about LH thth in that the lag becomes significantly worse and that is what makes hard way more challenging. We are essentially forced to run normal because of lag when we have the ability to complete hard or elite.

There are many quests with shadows and incorp mobs that are full of lag.

Not sure why you brought hard into the discussion. OP said normal.

[Alled78]

R10s are easier than normal Too Hot Too Handle

Yes or no? What are your thoughts on this? Agree or disagree?


[edit - gah ... pls fix second 'too' in title to 'to' ... oops]

Yes thth normal is more difficult than r10 (normal quests i suppose)

Pn is by far more doable.

But, then?

[Sam-u-r-eye]

R10 are usually a different type of difficulty.
R10 involves CC, high damage, and teamwork between 2-4 people.

THTH has time gated mechanics on top of puzzles and adds that cause lag. A quest that is comparable is Demon Assault endfight from new Amarath pack. These types of fights require coordination and they quickly snowball out of control if people are screwing around.

In R10 you can wipe and usually you don't have an incentive to reset.

Personally I find time-gated mechanics extremely tedious. It's why I refuse to do Shroud now---portals and waiting on the bosses to spawn at the end is mind numbingly boring.

[Carpone]

THTH and PN are some of the best designed raids
Completely disagree. These are horrible raids for melee. The Forgewraith Titan's hitbox is way too small and narrow. It's common to see melee not actually doing damage to the Titan even through they're standing on the precipice of the platform. Far too tedious for melee. Ranged also have issues with hitting the boss, as the attack positioning/angle is fickle. Guilds are not pushing skulls in THTH, which says much on its own. Omni is the only guild I've heard about completing R1. Most guilds wont touch THTH above LH because it is simply too tedious with the way it's designed.

PN has two bosses and four battery rooms where melee are sitting on their hands. Jump attacking Irk is futile, and Zulkis will ddoor. With elementals casting circles every three seconds, good luck keeping DPS up on the elemental as a melee. At least ranged and casters can nuke while they're running out of circles. The air battery room as a melee makes me want to pull my hair out. Pray for no lag if you're melee on Rudus. It's frustrating to watch melee die in mid air (including the tank) because of lag when Rudus jumps. Lag is also responsible for curse pots usage not being registered properly, and heals not landing on targets.

[Hakushi]

From my point of view as a causual player in a solo guild, it's extremely rare I see a LFM for THTH and that means a lot. Also, my experience in THTH is that's not a fun raid and it's too hard for it's level. Is it harder than some R10s, I would say yes.