And honest question from a Ranged main: Is IPS healthy for the game?

[doubledge]

Preface: I love IPS, but even I am aware of just how much of a night and day change it is between precise shot, and the current iteration of IPS.

Here's the thing... It's at the level that IPS becomes unlocked that ranged outclasses melee in basically every way.

As much as I'd hate to say it, IPS might be a balance problem. The mere ability to DPS down groups of mobs makes ranged much better at both safe, AND group DPS.

Does anyone have a counterargument? Please have a counterargument.

Thank you.

[Eryhn]

Does anyone have a counterargument? Please have a counterargument.


- bring 2hf / glancing blows up to speed ?

- this is why we can't have nice things ?

- i'm just about to TR into ranged, ask again in spring or something?



in all seriousness, there also should be a 2HF outside of tier5 tempest, but there isn't, much

there should be something thematically fitting that gives swf an edge, maybe shorter tactics cooldowns or some such, idk

there shouldnt be a 95% dodge cap for melee so they still can make use of some things to not croak miserably up close



-
semi seriously ...

IPS is good for server health, if stuff dies before it moves much, there is less AI load from computing mob movement relative to player - maybe?



other anrguments ... stuff was never ever balanced, why should we balance this now?

before inquis nobody gave a rats behind about IPS from what i remember, so there is that ...

I mean I don't think a tywa axe thrower is made OP @15 via IPS ?

ok exagerating ... but ...


- discussion doesnt matter anyways was already mentioned in discord, prly be nerfed from orbit, just so after some people can keep arguing inquis is in the right spot lol.

[MaeveTuohy]

Preface: I love IPS, but even I am aware of just how much of a night and day change it is between precise shot, and the current iteration of IPS.

Here's the thing... It's at the level that IPS becomes unlocked that ranged outclasses melee in basically every way.

As much as I'd hate to say it, IPS might be a balance problem. The mere ability to DPS down groups of mobs makes ranged much better at both safe, AND group DPS.

Does anyone have a counterargument? Please have a counterargument.

Thank you.

Among my friends who play, we all agree that nerfing IPS will be Steelstar's solution to the over-performance of Inquisitive. (That and lowering the total Law Dice a little.)

Kinda like how heroic handwrap damage reduction solved some pseudo problem with endgame monks.

IPS is great. Maybe its too good. Then again, not all feats are equal and every class has elements that bump it more than the rest of the components.

[LurkingVeteran]

Preface: I love IPS, but even I am aware of just how much of a night and day change it is between precise shot, and the current iteration of IPS.

Here's the thing... It's at the level that IPS becomes unlocked that ranged outclasses melee in basically every way.

As much as I'd hate to say it, IPS might be a balance problem. The mere ability to DPS down groups of mobs makes ranged much better at both safe, AND group DPS.

Does anyone have a counterargument? Please have a counterargument.

Thank you.

It was balanced when ranged dps was lower than melee. Perhaps they could make secondary targets take 30-60 percent of main target depending on he number of ranged feats, like glancing blows are supposed to work. This would also make ranged scaling smoothet in heroic. Optionally, give all melee 100% aoe damage, or a bit of both.

That still does not change that inq rof is just too good w doubleshot, and fusilade is completely bonkers compared to other action boosts.

[darkniteyogi]

IPS wasn't a big deal back then. I honestly thought it was too hard to aim, and not applicable in all situations involving room sizes, space, and terrain.

[Xgya]

IPS wasn't a big deal back then. I honestly thought it was too hard to aim, and not applicable in all situations involving room sizes, space, and terrain.

This was very true back then.
The new quest design format (bunched groups of mobs in corridors) removed the hard part of making IPS useful.

The argument against nerfing IPS? Easy. Bow rangers exist and need the feat. If nothing else, bow rangers need a BUFF, and this is a direct and consequential nerf to them.

[PsychoBlonde]

Among my friends who play, we all agree that nerfing IPS will be Steelstar's solution to the over-performance of Inquisitive. (That and lowering the total Law Dice a little.)

Why in the world would anyone be dumb enough to nerf ALL ranged (most of which is garbage currently) in order to deal with ONE tree?

If you want to "fix" Inquisitive, just remove No Holds Barred. Only affects Inquisitive. Gets rid of the OP ultra-machine-gun mode unless you invest very heavily in Battle Engineer. Heck, maybe even make it so that it flat out doesn't work with Endless Fusillade. Voila, it's in decent territory again and doing an artificer repeater build with Fusillade is also decent again.

The idiotic "super extra multiple attack" modes on ranged have been THE source of the problems with ranged since I started playing. They generate massive numbers of hits, so they create big lag. They only exist because ranged was given absolutely garbage attack speed to start with. Give ranged a SOLID overall attack speed (like with a repeater or with Inquisitive dual crossbow), ditch the super-speed boost mode model, and voila again, we can stop having these idiotic discussions about ranged being "broken" every other year.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Why in the world would anyone be dumb enough to nerf ALL ranged (most of which is garbage currently) in order to deal with ONE tree?

If you want to "fix" Inquisitive, just remove No Holds Barred. Only affects Inquisitive. Gets rid of the OP ultra-machine-gun mode unless you invest very heavily in Battle Engineer. Heck, maybe even make it so that it flat out doesn't work with Endless Fusillade. Voila, it's in decent territory again and doing an artificer repeater build with Fusillade is also decent again.

The idiotic "super extra multiple attack" modes on ranged have been THE source of the problems with ranged since I started playing. They generate massive numbers of hits, so they create big lag. They only exist because ranged was given absolutely garbage attack speed to start with. Give ranged a SOLID overall attack speed (like with a repeater or with Inquisitive dual crossbow), ditch the super-speed boost mode model, and voila again, we can stop having these idiotic discussions about ranged being "broken" every other year.

ya but .. that will nerf Inq....

Inq can't be nerf'd until the next big p2w is introduced.

However, I do fully expect that when SSG does nerf Inq, it will be in some ham-fisted way that worsens other things (eg degrading IPS) instead of directly addressing the problem.

On the other hand, word around the campfire is, a certain dev is IN LOVE with machine guns and thinks they are the greatest thing evah! to add to a medieval-themed game, so maybe Inq will get a buff instead. I mean, it does allow anyone to play any class and be a contributor. Activate blenderization mode! Yay game balance!

[Andu_Indorin]

Why in the world would anyone be dumb enough to nerf ALL ranged (most of which is garbage currently) in order to deal with ONE tree?

If you want to "fix" Inquisitive, just remove No Holds Barred. Only affects Inquisitive. Gets rid of the OP ultra-machine-gun mode unless you invest very heavily in Battle Engineer. Heck, maybe even make it so that it flat out doesn't work with Endless Fusillade. Voila, it's in decent territory again and doing an artificer repeater build with Fusillade is also decent again.

The idiotic "super extra multiple attack" modes on ranged have been THE source of the problems with ranged since I started playing. They generate massive numbers of hits, so they create big lag. They only exist because ranged was given absolutely garbage attack speed to start with. Give ranged a SOLID overall attack speed (like with a repeater or with Inquisitive dual crossbow), ditch the super-speed boost mode model, and voila again, we can stop having these idiotic discussions about ranged being "broken" every other year.

Ask a Monk?: "Why nerf all open-hand damage just to resolve outliers at Legendary Reaper levels?"

Or, more broadly: "Why balance the game around legendary reaper?"

[Nyata]

ya but .. that will nerf Inq....

Inq can't be nerf'd until the next big p2w is introduced.
[...]


When's alchemist landing again?

honestly though, when I first heard you clone the crossbow damage I thought that is just wrong. so that would probably be the angle I would handle this from, lower crossbow damage to like 70% of original or the same double shot restrictions a repeater has. I'd still probably prefer Inquisitor to Repeater build, for a really silly reason... the sound from a crossbow is more pleasant than from a repeater.

[HungarianRhapsody]

It’s no more unbalancing than Delayed Blast Fireball.

[MaeveTuohy]

Why in the world would anyone be dumb enough to nerf ALL ranged (most of which is garbage currently) in order to deal with ONE tree?

If you want to "fix" Inquisitive, just remove No Holds Barred. Only affects Inquisitive. Gets rid of the OP ultra-machine-gun mode unless you invest very heavily in Battle Engineer. Heck, maybe even make it so that it flat out doesn't work with Endless Fusillade. Voila, it's in decent territory again and doing an artificer repeater build with Fusillade is also decent again.

The idiotic "super extra multiple attack" modes on ranged have been THE source of the problems with ranged since I started playing. They generate massive numbers of hits, so they create big lag. They only exist because ranged was given absolutely garbage attack speed to start with. Give ranged a SOLID overall attack speed (like with a repeater or with Inquisitive dual crossbow), ditch the super-speed boost mode model, and voila again, we can stop having these idiotic discussions about ranged being "broken" every other year.

Yes, your solution is a much better one that the IPS nerf we suspect Steelstar will favor. Personally, I don't think even that is enough.

[Sonoma]

I find I'm too lazy to use IPS properly, usually just point and spray. Really don't have to, with the number of Law dices, that they are d8, and they hit everything, even Law aligned.

edit: Plus, equip a runearm for imbued damage, maybe a deadly weapon scroll, good quiver, and more. Shame I have to get off my horse.

[AbyssalMage]

Why in the world would anyone be dumb enough to nerf ALL ranged (most of which is garbage currently) in order to deal with ONE tree?

Why would you use a scalpel when you have a chainsaw "itching" to be used.

This is SSG after all and subtle isn't their style.

[nokowi]

why in the world would anyone be dumb enough to nerf all ranged (most of which is garbage currently) in order to deal with one tree?


SSG is. Their go-to is to break non OP builds once they are done selling something.

D&D 3.5 handles this by having sneak attack only apply to the first target, but I wouldn't be looking for SSG to implement a well thought out system, as they have tried to balance over poorly designed systems and it is too much work to put in good design.

[LurkingVeteran]

IPS isn't even in D&D afaik, at least not in 3.5. That said, lining up monsters has a certain fun skill factor, so I don't think it should be nerfed that heavily. Most of the problem is with Inq.

[Kinerd]

before inquis nobody gave a rats behind about IPS from what i remember, so there is that ...chiming in with everyone else, but this feels like the most salient point to me

[nokowi]

IPS isn't even in D&D afaik, at least not in 3.5. That said, lining up monsters has a certain fun skill factor, so I don't think it should be nerfed that heavily. Most of the problem is with Inq.

The important part of the post is the example of a balanced system by having sneak attack (crits, etc) only apply to the first mob as a means to provide some balance.

We all know DDO is not D&D, but a solution that retains the flavor of D&D would be preferred, which is why a D&D example is better than a star wars example, all other things equal. That's why I chose a D&D example of a scaling system for you. Any example I chose from another game would not be DDO - that's where we look however for any easy reference when something does not exist in DDO.

I agree with the majority here, and I would summarize these ideas with the statement that preserving what is fun about IPS is important, as is having a benefit from taking the time/effort to line things up. Also, dungeon designs that routinely make this trivial are a detriment to the game.

Players should be rewarded for choosing interactive play, not just game knowledge, past lives, and gear. IPS does this in a good implementation.

[Letrii]

IPS isn't even in D&D afaik, at least not in 3.5. That said, lining up monsters has a certain fun skill factor, so I don't think it should be nerfed that heavily. Most of the problem is with Inq.

Are we talking about Improved Precise Shot or something else? Improved Precise Shot is in Core 3.5.

[vryxnr]

Are we talking about Improved Precise Shot or something else? Improved Precise Shot is in Core 3.5.

What the feat does in PnP is very different from what it does in DDO.

In PnP, it allows your ranged attacks to ignore miss chance from concealment (other than total) and AC bonuses from cover (other than total cover), and lets you always hit your chosen target when shooting at grappled targets.

In DDO it lets you hit every enemy in a line.

[Letrii]

They didn't say it worked differently, they said it doesn't exist , which it does.

[nokowi]

They didn't say it worked differently, they said it doesn't exist , which it does.

SSG used a name from D&D and then threw in a totally different implementation. The idea of ranged or thrown attack in a line does exist in several implementations, so other than the strange choice of name, improved precise shot certainly is within what one might expect from a D&D ranged ability. It is also fun in an MMO, because it allows the user to do more than auto-target, creating a more interesting play experience.

Melee have been asking for this type of interesting play experience for some time now, as opposed to the reaper melee design of attacking non moving mobs. Getting rid of IPS is not a good answer, but making melee interesting and rewarding is. Devs have been asked to discuss this for 3 years, but have had no interest.

That leaves us with DPS comparisons and asking for removal of interesting abilities, instead of creating great play experiences.

Where are the devs? When will they value interesting play instead of picking the latest winner and loser? Will they ever come up with metrics for what a ranged character should do vs a melee vs a caster, and most importantly weigh how they interact to make great play experiences? It's fairly obvious this has either never happened, or that SSG's design goals are transient and morph each and every update - making their goals pointless from a game design perspective.

I'll encourage them to do better. I know they can if they decide to value play experience.

[Alled78]

Preface: I love IPS, but even I am aware of just how much of a night and day change it is between precise shot, and the current iteration of IPS.

Here's the thing... It's at the level that IPS becomes unlocked that ranged outclasses melee in basically every way.

As much as I'd hate to say it, IPS might be a balance problem. The mere ability to DPS down groups of mobs makes ranged much better at both safe, AND group DPS.

Does anyone have a counterargument? Please have a counterargument.

Thank you.

Consider the new spawns have 7-8 mobs each. Without ips would be painful and not fun.
Remove it and u will remove ranged players.

I think doubleshot is op.

[SerPounce]

Removing an interesting and fun ability like IPS would be the worst way of altering the current meta.

The problem is deeper than inquisitive though. Even before inq came out fusilade gxbow mechanics were taking over and their DPS is pretty comparable to inq. Inq mostly made that kind of ranged DPS more accessible to people that don't want to bother with a fine tuned multiclass build.

The Shiradi update is at least as much of a problem as inq also. Nerve venom + high RoA is probably too strong. Casters and melee have to make huge investments into DCs to get that kind of CC in engame.

[LurkingVeteran]

Consider the new spawns have 7-8 mobs each. Without ips would be painful and not fun.
Remove it and u will remove ranged players.

I think doubleshot is op.

Your group grabs one each, leaving you with only one anyway? :-)

Assume you were an end-game melee, what were you supposed to do there anyway? Cleaves are almost useless at end-game due to no double-strike, no twf, and THF is probably worse DPS than Inq-Shiradi to begin with.

I don't advocate removing IPS, but ranged have to be balanced against melee somehow. The best approach is probably to do a bit of buffing of melee and a bit of nerfing of the dominating ranged classes, but whatever you do, don't ruin IPS completely.

[Kutalp]

Original warrior classes Fighter and Barbarian lack a viable set for now.



The inbalance issue truly comes from no innate ability to endure damage; scaling with class/character level for melees. By means of prr/mrr, a real chunk of hp;most probably double the base, 1-2 point of elemental resist each lvl and the similar. So more than healing amplification at hand, that is what Fighter and Barbarian needs. More endurance during the fights without any healing. At solo gaming experience this would still needs a good amount of plat spent at the potions to heal but this time more playable.

This would also support healing between fights and bit by bit healing during skirmishes and a real reason to invite healing and buffing classes to the team.


Also movement speed for every level and dodge/reflex ability scaling aswell as chance to avoid nasty spell effects such as hold, fear, level drain, weakness, with %1-2 for each level scaling with warrior level would be nice. So warriors could dash a head of the team, bodyguard the ranged and caster and support characters without hesitating.

As fighting styles it would be much better if THF and SWF were simply combined. SWF turned compatible with shield feats. THF gets speed of SWF and 2x ablity score or double base damage +1 critical threat and critical chance at third tier.

THF+ Shield might need another touch, such as giving extra shield bash chance that also applies glancing blows with shield and weapons. Daxe and Bsword would count as Big THF weapons if offhand is empty, as if holding them with two hands. So Exotic weapon feat would also worth its weight.


TWF really doesnt need any change. May be +%10 to offhand at tier 3. Tempest is the best melee enhancement tree right now. Just add some Stalward top of that. Kensei melee power is nice but the tree lacks the versitality of weapon types aswell as being glass pistol (nowhere a cannon such as casters nor crossbow builds if its not a Cbowsei)


Kensei and Stalward combined would make a much better tree (merge) Option would be another tree would add more speed (Vanguard) when the other one would add more endurance but base would be mix of Kensei/Stalward. Vanguard special attacks would be new special attacks for Fighter. Would be similar for Barbarian as the new distribution between barb trees.



So you getting IPS does not really change much if Fighter and Barbarian dont get any real revamp. It is not ranged or caster characters' fault, to use their given powers. Additionally Ranged attack speed and to hit chance scales impossibly well compared to what mele gets Staying further does not decrease to hit rate. Moving also doesnt apply any worthy penalty to hit nor damage. Casters are still at the top if we do not count Inquisitve tree. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvfcrmOCWxE

[SpartanKiller13]

Assume you were an end-game melee, what were you supposed to do there anyway? Cleaves are almost useless at end-game due to no double-strike, no twf, and THF is probably worse DPS than Inq-Shiradi to begin with.

I don't advocate removing IPS, but ranged have to be balanced against melee somehow. The best approach is probably to do a bit of buffing of melee and a bit of nerfing of the dominating ranged classes, but whatever you do, don't ruin IPS completely.

Probably Tempest? That way you can get TWF's solid DPS applied to four enemies at once. Was planning on doing my first Ranger life as one, but now I'm hearing rumors of upcoming nerfs so idk.