Advice on heroic leveling TR planning - melee

[MFRED]

Hi everyone - I am hoping for some guidance from the community on a plan for TRing just through 1 - 20 heroics to start stacking past lives in order to more thoroughly explore the game content and to build my knowledge as a player. I have been a casual player of DDO for several years, I'll research and get serious about a character, level up to about 4 or 5, overthink it, restart as another character completely, overthink it again, rinse repeat, get burnout and leave...but I always come back as I enjoy the game alot, just having trouble sticking with a specific build.

Therefore, I am trying to craft a plan to achieve this. I am not worried about reaper or epics yet, maybe eventually. I am a premium player who enjoys melees, can do 32 pt builds, has access to several of the more common adventure packs at low, mid and high level heroics (including the better ones like Delara's, Vale, GH, and others that I enjoy at low levels or that sound interesting but have not played yet, i.e. Red Fens). I also solo most of the time as I enjoy the challenge, self sufficiency needs and research that goes into it and have yet to find a static group or guild to go with. I have the character builder program that I enjoy making builds with but now really want to take one/several to 20 and get into the larger game.

So, my needs are to figure out the best order of the following builds to go through for the TR process as I enjoy melees. My main concerns, found from reading numerous forum threads, and what trips me up the most in deciding on a build to stick with, are the importance or priority in heroic leveling and TRing for traps vs saves vs self healing vs DPS. Not having enough of something can cause issues, but since I plan to start one character then progress through normal, hard, elite, etc., traps are probably not a huge concern early on and maybe none of these items are overly important to start or in heroics alone.

Below are the melees I'd like to TR through, just looking for thoughts on best order and viability. They all can provide benefits from past life affects, but am curious about a suggested progression or which works better as I go through the various difficulties and begin to explore new adventure packs:

-THF Kotc 20 paladin >> based off of builds of Sacred Knight (by Echevaila (sp?) OR new player builds from Unbongwah >> human/dwarf/dragonborn/warforged?

-Vanguard 20 paladin >> based off builds from EllisDee OR Unbongwah >> human/dwarf?

-THF 20 barbarian >> based off of Zoda or Thorix builds >> dwarf/human/warforged?

-Melee 20 artificer >> based off of Maverick Hunter build by Strimtom >> warforged

-Others >> maybe eldritch knight, tempest ranger, bard?

Any thoughts and constructive criticism are welcome, thank you!

[GeneralDiomedes]

Monk?

[MFRED]

Monk?
I don't have access to Monk yet, but that is another good melee. I have heard that it is a more advanced class to play though.

[darkniteyogi]

I second Monk. Its the only melee class imo thats not underpowered and the only reason to play melee

Artificer is ok too since u still can use arcanotechnician if u need so u have ranged

Monk is not advanced. What is "advanced" is to try to play a melee without the tools to survive.

For instance, playing a fighter or paladin and having to UMd alot of stuff. Monk has fast move speed, the highest saves, and evasion. Alot of other goodies

[MFRED]

I second Monk. Its the only melee class imo thats not underpowered and the only reason to play melee

Artificer is ok too since u still can use arcanotechnician if u need so u have ranged

Monk is not advanced. What is "advanced" is to try to play a melee without the tools to survive.

For instance, playing a fighter or paladin and having to UMd alot of stuff. Monk has fast move speed, the highest saves, and evasion. Alot of other goodies

Any monk builds you suggest?

[zavozod]

Swashbuckler. SWF with a buckler = win. CC/heals/death machine.
You can go pure, splash some rog in, or u can do a lil arti.
I play a PDK str 18bard/1barb/1cleric it is my goto for raiding.

[RAFAR]

-THF Kotc 20 paladin >> based off of builds of Sacred Knight (by Echevaila (sp?) OR new player builds from Unbongwah >> human/dwarf/dragonborn/warforged?

-Vanguard 20 paladin >> based off builds from EllisDee OR Unbongwah >> human/dwarf?

-THF 20 barbarian >> based off of Zoda or Thorix builds >> dwarf/human/warforged?

-Melee 20 artificer >> based off of Maverick Hunter build by Strimtom >> warforged

-Others >> maybe eldritch knight, tempest ranger, bard?

Any thoughts and constructive criticism are welcome, thank you!


I recommend starting with 3 paladin lives in a row, can be different builds ofc.
Reasons:
- past life gives 3x10 heal amp which is an important boost for any other build (except pm)
- pally, even as vanguard, has rather low dps compared to other builds, so the less time/xp required to cap, the better :)
- has buffs, defenses and good self healing that will help getting through quests you don't yet have enough experience with (I mean, pally has a higher chance of survival in an unexpected tough situation that you will certainly avoid in the future)

[MFRED]

I recommend starting with 3 paladin lives in a row, can be different builds ofc.
Reasons:
- past life gives 3x10 heal amp which is an important boost for any other build (except pm)
- pally, even as vanguard, has rather low dps compared to other builds, so the less time/xp required to cap, the better :)
- has buffs, defenses and good self healing that will help getting through quests you don't yet have enough experience with (I mean, pally has a higher chance of survival in an unexpected tough situation that you will certainly avoid in the future)

Would you say the following is true?

THF paladin > vanguard paladin for dps but the opposite for survivability or, if built right and geared right, about the same now as I heard heard THF is lagging behind other fighting styles compared to SWF or using vanguard type trees

[Kutalp]

Greetings.


My humble opinion add 2 rogue to all builds and start with 14 or 16 intelligence.

Do not go full strength as you start the loss of worthy ability points is not worth it. Use the stronger and easier side of your race pick. You can add strength without penalites when you level up. Same for dexterity.


Abilities and builds:

Strength is good for any melee but also throwing. 16 starting for non str races (14 for gnome and halfling; even Elf and Drow is wiser) or 18 starting for any race that boosts strength.


Dexterity really works only with Tempest Ranger. Full dexterity build with 6-8 strength will make you suffer alot (carry limit, strength damage spells that make you helpless and much more). I would avoid that. [Weapon finesse is only dexterity to hit with light weapons. Not damage. If you aim ligh weapon builds. Swashbuckler bard 3 levels is enough; while more is better]


Intelligence does not worth it to use for reflex saves and to hit and damage and KTA. You still need at least 14-16 base strength and 12-16 constitution when you start. For obvious reasons. (Please read the note below about Intelligence)


Strength is true ability for melee and throwing (Strength bow sadly has issues...)


Dexterity is true ability for ranged and throwing to hit (if you dont have Brutal throw feat) also for Tempest ranger melee and various Rogue builds (are not worth it). Enough of it adds up for reflex saves and balance and vs harmfull spells. Best Dexterity build to hit and damage for melee and ranged is Ranger.



Dump stats:

If Fighting styles didnt require 17 ability score I would say deliver the extra points to wisdom and charisma. Lots of reasons from skills to ability damage done to you and helpless mode. Sadly Fighting styles still require 17.


Action points:

Around 10 pts at stalward defender worths it. Additionally you can never go wrong with Stalward builds. 23 points at Vistani worths it even if you will swap that for certain areas and quests with Beholders and Quels etc. (Level drain). Vistani is really nice even if you do not aim dagger build. Occult slayer is very viable and flexible tree.


Melee Power:

Grabbing melee power instead of more critical burst feats (there is more than two of them) may be worth it the long run. It may seem tiny numbers compared to criticals, but as the character levels and weapons improve MP and RP becomes more valuable. Ps: Power attack works against all types of npcs for melee.


Races:

Half orc is amazing with semi tank/semi dps style. Tips above works for it fair enough. Human, Drow, Dwarf have their strong sides.



Other points worth to mention:

Charisma is vital for Bard melees even if main stats are strength or dexterity or built balanced; one being higher than other. Also for Fighter clerics and Favored souls with Divine Might.

Wisdom. Fighter clerics and Favored souls. Wisdom is vital for Favored soul built over wisdom aswell as Monks.

Dexterity really works for Rangers and dexterity build Monks.

Intelligence works solid for Arcane warrior Wizards with Harper bonuses.

Constitution builds are great for Dwarven builds aswell as Constitution based Barbarian builds and semi optinal Half orc builds. (Half orc can be built as top strength, top constitution or balanced strength and constitution)


Items: (The most egenralist and undetailed explanation)

Best speed boots. Any other item that gives the best bonuses to your key ability scores. Highest saves.

For various build you may wish to get as high Fortification as possible. A Relic of a sovereign past has Nightforge gorget (lvl12).

Before that I advice fortification wrists or reinforced armors. Insightfull fortification from helmets.

Several capes and/or rings for elemental resistances to swap (easier to swap then armors). Deathblock item at belt or at wrists. Might item at gloves or wrists. Deadly item at googles or gloves.

Random generated weapons Vorpal Flametouched and Holy Adamant usually covers the most. Vorpal Flametouched (same good effect with holy) is a good combo against most living npcs. Holy and Adamant Blunt weapons are better against both constructs and skeletons as an example as random generated weapon. If the weapon has Bane (example construct bane) it also bypass all types of damage reduction and damages the specific npc targeted.

Bane, Force and Sonic are all good damage reduction bypassing types on weapons.

Have fun. :)

[Hobgoblin]

My humble opinion add 2 rogue to all builds and start with 14 or 16 intelligence.

Do not go full strength as you start the loss of worthy ability points is not worth it. Use the stronger and easier side of your race pick. You can add strength without penalites when you level up. Same for dexterity.


Strength is good for any melee but also throwing. 16 starting for non str races (14 for gnome and halfling; even Elf and Drow is wiser) or 18 starting for any race that boosts strength.

Dexterity really works only with Tempest Ranger. Full dexterity build with 6-8 strength will make you suffer alot. I would avoid that.

Intelligence does not worth it to use for reflex saves and to hit and damage and KTA. You still need at least 14-16 base strength and 12-16 constitution when you start. For obvious reasons.

Strength is true ability for melee and throwing (Strength bow sadly has issues...)

Dexterity is true ability for ranged and throwing (only to hit and passable for throwing). Enough of it adds up for reflex saves and balance and vs harmfull spells.


If Fighting styles didnt require 17 ability score I would say deliver the extra points to wisdom and charisma. Lots of reasons from skills to ability damage done to you and helpless mode. Sadly Fighting styles still require 17.

Around 10 pts at stalward defender worths it. 23 points at Vistani worths it even if you will swap that for certain areas and quests with Beholders and Quels etc. (Level drain). Vistani is really nice even if you do not aim dagger build.

Grabbing melee power instead of more critical burst feats (thre is more than two fo them) may be worth it the long run. It may seem tiny numbers compared to criticals, but as the character levels and weapons improve MP and RP becomes more valuable.

Half orc is amazing with semi tank/semi dps style. Tips above works for it fair enough.


Charisma is vital for Bard melees even if main stats are strgtn or dexterity or built balanced; one being higher than other.

Wisdom. Fighter clerics and Favored souls. Wisdom is vital for Favored soul built over wisdom aswell as Monks.

Dexterity really works for Rangers and dexterity build Monks.

Intelligence works solid for Arcane warrior Wizards with Harper bonuses.

Constitution builds are great for Dwarven builds aswell as Constitution based Barbarian builds and semi optinal Half orc builds. (Half orc can be built as top strength, top constitution or balanced strength and constitution)
https://i.imgur.com/VnQ2CNW.gif

half joking of course

a lot of that is opinion and some is just wrong

[Kutalp]

https://i.imgur.com/VnQ2CNW.gif

half joking of course

a lot of that is opinion and some is just wrong








Hi Hobgoblin.


First of all the builds mentioned are not built around top dps or top tanking or around Epic destinies. Pretty much easy go solo melee builds I play for heroics and earlier epics.

Just humble notes about some easy builds that work for me. Forsure everyone has his own style. Noway I dictate these are the best builds around but durable enough to solo the content even without hirelings and through lag spikes.


Thanks for mentioning your opinion.

[Hobgoblin]

Greetings.


My humble opinion add 2 rogue to all builds and start with 14 or 16 intelligence.

Do not go full strength as you start the loss of worthy ability points is not worth it. Use the stronger and easier side of your race pick. You can add strength without penalites when you level up. Same for dexterity.


Abilities and builds:

Strength is good for any melee but also throwing. 16 starting for non str races (14 for gnome and halfling; even Elf and Drow is wiser) or 18 starting for any race that boosts strength.


Dexterity really works only with Tempest Ranger. Full dexterity build with 6-8 strength will make you suffer alot (carry limit, strength damage spells that make you helpless and much more). I would avoid that. [Weapon finesse is only dexterity to hit with light weapons. Not damage. If you aim ligh weapon builds. Swashbuckler bard 3 levels is enough; while more is better]


Intelligence does not worth it to use for reflex saves and to hit and damage and KTA. You still need at least 14-16 base strength and 12-16 constitution when you start. For obvious reasons. (Please read the note below about Intelligence)


Strength is true ability for melee and throwing (Strength bow sadly has issues...)


Dexterity is true ability for ranged and throwing to hit (if you dont have Brutal throw feat) also for Tempest ranger melee and various Rogue builds (are not worth it). Enough of it adds up for reflex saves and balance and vs harmfull spells. Best Dexterity build to hit and damage for melee and ranged is Ranger.



Dump stats:

If Fighting styles didnt require 17 ability score I would say deliver the extra points to wisdom and charisma. Lots of reasons from skills to ability damage done to you and helpless mode. Sadly Fighting styles still require 17.


Action points:

Around 10 pts at stalward defender worths it. Additionally you can never go wrong with Stalward builds. 23 points at Vistani worths it even if you will swap that for certain areas and quests with Beholders and Quels etc. (Level drain). Vistani is really nice even if you do not aim dagger build. Occult slayer is very viable and flexible tree.


Melee Power:

Grabbing melee power instead of more critical burst feats (there is more than two of them) may be worth it the long run. It may seem tiny numbers compared to criticals, but as the character levels and weapons improve MP and RP becomes more valuable. Ps: Power attack works against all types of npcs for melee.


Races:

Half orc is amazing with semi tank/semi dps style. Tips above works for it fair enough. Human, Drow, Dwarf have their strong sides.



Other points worth to mention:

Charisma is vital for Bard melees even if main stats are strength or dexterity or built balanced; one being higher than other. Also for Fighter clerics and Favored souls with Divine Might.

Wisdom. Fighter clerics and Favored souls. Wisdom is vital for Favored soul built over wisdom aswell as Monks.

Dexterity really works for Rangers and dexterity build Monks.

Intelligence works solid for Arcane warrior Wizards with Harper bonuses.

Constitution builds are great for Dwarven builds aswell as Constitution based Barbarian builds and semi optinal Half orc builds. (Half orc can be built as top strength, top constitution or balanced strength and constitution)


Have fun. :)

will add details so im not just trolling.


adding 2 rogue - not a bad idea, but so not needed especially for a new player requires some micromanagment to get the most out of it. the high int? not so much as it mostly only for skills

str for ranged damage...... dont worry about this. either you are based on range and have a way to get damage through or its an afterthought and not needed.

for stats - absolutly right to not completely max them. it is not worth the return

insightful reflexes can be worth it but takes planning to use.

there is a lot more in here, but i dont want to come off as nitpicking on kultap. he is just trying to help and i respect that

basically what im trying to say is that plan out your build and you should be fine.

rant off.

[Kutalp]

Hey there is no problem. I would like to add.



I certainly did not mention Paladin/Fighter/Artificer tank or Druid version.

I did not mention Brushook build over SWF and Bard and Ravager Critical threat/Hand axe or Light picks...and long time players know it...(I fo?rgot to mention I add some Ravager to six enhancement tree combo up there)

Going for Kensei and punching the clickies and KTA and Eldricht cleaves. Hey I am aware of all.

Aaasimar for inbuilt heals and Favored soul tricks.

Cleavs and Martial sphere destinies and Dire charge...Allright.

Slaver set bonuses and Ravenloft/Sharn gear.

Tail of the scorpion

Shintao Handwrap monk and Whiriwind attack

Rejevunation Coccon.

Silerflame pots

Yugoloth points...

Alphabetical order of classes and adding extra levels when setting the muticlass combinations for catering the class you aim to add bonus...


I am sure there re some other things to mention.



Anyhow, about Paladin, Fighter and variations.



Example of an Half Orc Fighter:

Simplified version for Half Orc Two Handed Half Orc 30 AP, Kensei 35 AP, Ravager 10AP, (Stalward 9-13 and Occult 13 AP each is enough for a early tanky build up to end Heroic. But tankiness is nice early gets nerfed later on compared to the items and Epic destinies. Especially if you wont go a Heavy armor or Shiled build. Light armor lets you Evade and Dodge with armor)

Sustained Dps part is obviously from Half orc and Kensai Weapon power enhancements and Fighter feats-Lots of small MP adds up+ Armor Piercing through Kensei, Half Orc and Ravager and Fighter feats + Items) (As mentioned above Tanky part is only about Ravager Temporary hp, Stalward if wears shield or Medium/Heavy armor. Saves and PRR/MRR from Stalward and Occult slayer ads up but it is up to lvl 17-18 character for Heroics. Items beat those enhancements later on)...Cleaves are optional because Epic destinies do not require them anymore...Dodge line turns redundant for the ssame reasons.

Extra weapon power enhancements and feats allways counts becasue they grow up more with Weapon stats.


[[Ps: Vistani/Occult slayer/Stalward]]



Unconventional Half Orc Paladin: (Not an ordinary Paladin, Charisma would be lower than Aasimar and similar races but Strength and racial enhancement fit Kensei and wrrior side of Paladin for sure)

For Paladin you would go 2 rogue, 12 Paladin and 6 Fighter.(Or anything you like) Similar to above build it would go for Kensei with Knight of Chalice or Stalward defender + Sacred Defender. Half Orc would also fit there with timing the Orc rage and Paladin goodies.




Anyhow everyone allready knows the cookie cutter builds. I just add my humble ones which are nowehere top at anyting but pretty good for solo all alone without even a hireling with Minimum gear and investment; up to early Epic levels (Since 2012). This one's and example to point out even Charisma penalty races can build variations around those classes using their own racial bonuses.



Just a random oldschool poster here.

[RAFAR]

Would you say the following is true?

THF paladin > vanguard paladin for dps but the opposite for survivability or, if built right and geared right, about the same now as I heard heard THF is lagging behind other fighting styles compared to SWF or using vanguard type trees

THF in general is the weakest of the three styles, and its no different for paladins either :/
Still, I'm not a pally expert, so don't take my opinions for granted :)

Imo, vanguard is a better single target cc/dps but lacks aoe, which is mostly embedded into kotc tree. Taking the cleave feats is possible but the t5 kotc aoe instakill is too good to pass - IF your dc is high enough.
I'd say a swf kotc with a cannith crafted orb is the best overall dps option, but vanguard catches up at later levels.

Some thoughts about the three trees:

Kotc had some nice perks with free cleaves, holy retribution, exalted smite and heal amp, but lacks the solid dps boost other offensive trees grant. Upside though is that the +1 crit range/multiplier comes from a spell, and independent of the enh trees.

Vanguard has nice dps boosts from extra bash chance, attack speed and static +dmg options, also some CC and 10 melee power at t5. But the downside is the choice between the kotc and defender trees, sacrifices must be made.

Defender has mostly defensive options with the upgraded stance and lay on hands (also offensive vs undead) but the +6 str bonus also means +3 dc for stuns and trip and attack/damage.

Thf - or swf! - kotc pallies have an easy time picking enhancements, while vanguards must choose between being tanky (with defender) or bursty (with kotc).

Since u only plan to go until 20 then TR, capstones wouldn't play much role except in token farming, taking 1-2 levels of fighter can greatly enhance your fighting ability (haste boost, extra action boost, tower shield prof and bonus feats)

[Sonoma]

Basics:

heroic past lives
premium, not prime
likes melee
mostly solo
current gear?

My favorite melee build starts with 2 arti levels. This gives you traps, locks, runearm, crossbows, dog for levers. Works with all armors. If you have warforged, self healing.
Take single weapon fighting, works with runearm, fast, good damage progression.
Take 6 fighter levels for weapon improvements
That leaves 12 levels for your primary heroic class. You can get barb, cleric, pally, warlock, others. Level progression is part of planner.

Another option is 2 arti, rest bard. Bard has it all, can swash with runearm.

Note that to get completionist, you have to do sorc, wiz, druid, warlock, etc. A classic way to do this is 6 arti, 6 warlock, rest whatever. Consider this after a few lives to practice on.

Consider also, if melee is the only option, do some racial lives. You can make a melee out of any race, some better than other. You get different, but useful benefits from racial.

Gear:

I do a lot of crafting, but materials are always a bother. As an old timer, I have a huge stockpile, so my gear looks like this (lvl 10 for reference). Note that gear takes lifetimes to get right.

Head: ML10 Intelligence 6 Helmet of Accuracy 9 w/Ins. Intelligence 2
Eyes: ML10 Seeker 6 Goggles of Deadly 5 w/Ins. Seeker 2
Neck: ML10 Constitution 6 Necklace of Spot 12 w/Ins. Constitution 2
Back: ML10 Charisma 6 Cloak of Natural Armor 6 w/Ins. Charisma 2
Wrist: ML10 Resistance 5 Bracers of (Fortification or Dodge Bonus 6) w/Sheltering 14
Hand: ML10 Melee Alacrity 7 Gloves of Potency 46 w/Ins. Accuracy 4
Waist: ML10 Doublestrike 6 Belt of Strength 6 w/Ins. Strength 2
Feet: ML10 Dexterity 6 Boots of Diversion 9 w/Ins. Dexterity 2
Ring: rings for class special requirements
Ring:
Trinket: ML10 Wisdom 6 Trinket of Ranged Alacrity 7 w/Ins. Wisdom 2
Body: ML10 Vitality 19 Armor of False Life 21 w/Parrying 2
Main: ML10 Metalline Weapon of Aligned w/Ins. Deadly 2

Augments for element resists, feather fall, underwater action, fortification

All of this is bound to account and can be stored on a mule(s). Organize it by levels for ease of swapping. I like 1/2, 4, 8, 12, 16, because of the augments.

Enjoy the rest of your lives.

[MFRED]

Thanks everyone, some great items to mull over!

[PsychoBlonde]

Hi everyone - I am hoping for some guidance from the community on a plan for TRing just through 1 - 20 heroics to start stacking past lives in order to more thoroughly explore the game content and to build my knowledge as a player.

If you're doing class past lives, do Iconic builds. It's much faster to level 15-30 than it is to level 1-20, and you get two past lives from one heart this way. Here's a sample path to get all of the class lives (except Alchemist which is coming out soonish):

Tiefling Scoundrel: 20 bard, 1 bard/19 sorcerer, 1 bard 19 warlock
Purple Dragon Knight Lives: 20 Fighter, 1 Fighter 19 barbarian
MorningLord: 20 cleric, 1 cleric 19 druid
Deep Gnome: 20 wizard, 1 wizard/19 artificer
Shadar-Kai: 20 rogue
Aasimar Scourge: 20 ranger
Bladeforged Paladin: 20 paladin, 1 paladin 19 Fvs, 1 paladin 19 monk (alternatively you can do monk as a PDK)

I recommend doing the Tiefling first and doing 3 iconic tiefling lives, as this gets you a permanent +30% run speed toggle that is super-convenient for leveling because you don't have to worry about slotting a striding item.

You can level 20-30 in epics just by doing slayers (helps if you grab some slayer pots), get your destinies leveled up, do 21 quests once you hit level 30 to get heart seeds, ITR. At the end you'll have 14 class past lives, class completionist, and a ton of Iconic past lives that will help you out.

Plus you won't be absolutely burned out of heroic leveling for the huge mountain that comes next: racial past lives. All 36 of them. Break these up when you get bored by going to 30 and getting an epic life.

[darkniteyogi]

THF in general is the weakest of the three styles, and its no different for paladins either :/
Still, I'm not a pally expert, so don't take my opinions for granted :)

Imo, vanguard is a better single target cc/dps but lacks aoe, which is mostly embedded into kotc tree. Taking the cleave feats is possible but the t5 kotc aoe instakill is too good to pass - IF your dc is high enough.
I'd say a swf kotc with a cannith crafted orb is the best overall dps option, but vanguard catches up at later levels.

Some thoughts about the three trees:

Kotc had some nice perks with free cleaves, holy retribution, exalted smite and heal amp, but lacks the solid dps boost other offensive trees grant. Upside though is that the +1 crit range/multiplier comes from a spell, and independent of the enh trees.

Vanguard has nice dps boosts from extra bash chance, attack speed and static +dmg options, also some CC and 10 melee power at t5. But the downside is the choice between the kotc and defender trees, sacrifices must be made.

Defender has mostly defensive options with the upgraded stance and lay on hands (also offensive vs undead) but the +6 str bonus also means +3 dc for stuns and trip and attack/damage.

Thf - or swf! - kotc pallies have an easy time picking enhancements, while vanguards must choose between being tanky (with defender) or bursty (with kotc).

Since u only plan to go until 20 then TR, capstones wouldn't play much role except in token farming, taking 1-2 levels of fighter can greatly enhance your fighting ability (haste boost, extra action boost, tower shield prof and bonus feats)

I am currently playing a TWF kotC paladin with power attack, knights training, and ic.slash
I think this is probably the highest DPS pally build. The TWF also allows more damage from the extra light damage per hit.

i can say that the DPS still isnt that great. But the tier 5 instakill cleave is really important to have. Planning each quest on when to use it and managing how many charges you have can make it work but this tier5 skill is really a big deal

[lyrecono]

I have to admit that 2hf (or thf) is the weakest out of the 3 melee playstyles (thanks devs!) However in early heroics, it doesn't mater as much. I have seen plenty of rangers, wizards and people building for 2wf, swf and sword&board use a 2 handed weapon just to get through the early heroics.
It's been a whille since i played but i remembered these being popular back then:

The gaurdians dagger (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Guardian%27s_Dagger) from stk
Carnifex (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Carnifex) from delara's quest chain.

This was nice for the free to play crowd, it dropped in the tear of Dhakaan
The sword of the thirthy (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sword_of_the_Thirty)

Even if you build for a particular playstyle,it doesn"t mean you can't slum it i the early levels

[Kutalp]

I have to admit that 2hf (or thf) is the weakest out of the 3 melee playstyles (thanks devs!) However in early heroics, it doesn't mater as much. I have seen plenty of rangers, wizards and people building for 2wf, swf and sword&board use a 2 handed weapon just to get through the early heroics.
It's been a whille since i played but i remembered these being popular back then:

The gaurdians dagger (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Guardian%27s_Dagger) from stk
Carnifex (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Carnifex) from delara's quest chain.

This was nice for the free to play crowd, it dropped in the tear of Dhakaan
The sword of the thirthy (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sword_of_the_Thirty)

Even if you build for a particular playstyle,it doesn"t mean you can't slum it i the early levels












So much for Crossbows and CC/Instakills SWF and Doublehit...and all for a long time... I try to hold on to THF and throwers lately aswell. I hope and feel Devs may be thinking somehting devious about THF melee based builds for heroic in near future. (Epic changes were also mentioned).

SSG did several out of rulebook; radical designs for character sheets and Adventures but also mounts. I believe it is also coming soon. :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jMlFXouPk8

[lyrecono]

So much for Crossbows and CC/Instakills SWF and Doublehit...and all for a long time... I try to hold on to THF and throwers lately aswell. I hope and feel Devs may be thinking somehting devious about THF melee based builds for heroic in near future. (Epic changes were also mentioned).

SSG did several out of rulebook; radical designs for character sheets and Adventures but also mounts. I believe it is also coming soon. :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jMlFXouPk8

Oh don't get me wrong, melee is far behind most builds and thf is the worst off
That and the way the devs responces to this situation are the main reasons i refuse to play (and pay)
When it comes to changes, i have no trust in the devs, i'll believe it when i see it

But since the OP mentioned he wasn't doing any of the harder stuff like reaper, 2hf is easily stil good till lv 5 or 6.

[janave]

THF is a sucker for endgame and a few bloat stat newer quests, but I still used to routinely take it for leveling, admittedly did a little over preparation with items, so my view wont exactly help newer players. Maybe a Vanguard is safer? cant say tbh.

Feats are a little hard, I tend to sacrifice THF2-3 for IC: Slash, IC: Blunt, Precision, Stun, and of course the Cleaves if not a Pally.

[Kutalp]

I used to slot Precision for allmost any builds if not pure casters. Anyhow if the build has Melee power feats Focus, Specialisation/all not only specific weapon type (Fighter) and enhancements focused at MP; Power attack + Horc + Ravager seem to work nice (still needs update to balnce with critical).

The point is it does up to +%35-39 (?) more damage (net at mid heroics) each swing (most probably on glancing blows aswell and better with THF style) and when it crits, it crits bigger; although not a multiplier.

With ordinary Improved critical slashing (which is the only one worth the dime) and rest on Focus/Specialisation/Power attack combined with enhancement critical threat+multiplier and enhancements such as Raging crush/Driving force/Laughter/Opportunity attack/One with the blade, other critical feats and Precision are not missed that much.


The point is;


Still, it would be much better if Melee power and static damage and power would improve better with passive Fighter and Barbarian feats and enhancements; instead of active ones. Most Critical enhancements and feats are passive and toggled. At lest half of Melee power and static damage numbers come with active attacks and sacrificing other things not mentioned here.



Improvement should start from early heroic levels:

Fighter and Barbarian should have double the physical abilites and power compared to all other classes and trees. (may be all except animal forms-Druids shall get higher then them but with penalty to intelligence, charisma and casting abilites in animal form)

The improvement for passive melee power and static damage for Power attack and Two handed fighting should be Fighter and Barbarian only.

(This would be a chance to those classes to follow a different route when fighting as true combat specialists...Both Fighter and Barbarian also needs double the PRR, HP, Weapon power, Mobility and Physical avoidance, Inbuilt fortification compared to all other classes...) All other classes and styles allready have their extra hit and critical chance bonuses; also supported by spell effects (!)



Tactical Fighters/Heroic feats and Enhancements (Educated and Intelligent men but still a warrior and not a caster):

Intelligence and skill point bonus and tactical bonuses for Intelligence based (non caster !) fighters should also be available. +3 skill and +2 to tactics is not fair enough. Save feats are also not fair enough.

May drop some physical attributes and invest on tactical and skill based Fighter feats; such as trapping, social skill based officer like fighter and barbarian with same avoidance but lower MP etc...These fighter might also be more resistant to magical effect but weaker against physical compared to physical focus fighters.



My humble opinion.

[MFRED]

Another thought from reading all the responses, perhaps melee and trapping, which could help in soloing and building quest knowledge, good for first life? I also realize that if I plan to TR after getting to 20, the various capstone from pure builds wouldn't really help me. Aside from the arti build in my initial post, which seems it would benefit from past lives and more build points, would the following be viable options too? Am leaning towards the trapper knight to start and going swf.

Trapper knight - 15/4/1 pally, rogue, fighter

Tempest trapmonkey - 18/1/1 ranger, rogue, barbarian

Bard trapper - 18/2 bard, rogue with swashbuckling and shield use

[Kutalp]

Another thought from reading all the responses, perhaps melee and trapping, which could help in soloing and building quest knowledge, good for first life? I also realize that if I plan to TR after getting to 20, the various capstone from pure builds wouldn't really help me. Aside from the arti build in my initial post, which seems it would benefit from past lives and more build points, would the following be viable options too? Am leaning towards the trapper knight to start and going swf.

Trapper knight - 15/4/1 pally, rogue, fighter

Tempest trapmonkey - 18/1/1 ranger, rogue, barbarian

Bard trapper - 18/2 bard, rogue with swashbuckling and shield use







If you wish to stay loyal to your wise and cunning warrior dream you can turn it real with 14-16 (14 Intel sacrifices certain skills out of trapping skills-Half Orc may need to sacrifice spot, balance, jump but keeps disable device and search at Fighter levels; if he chooses to go trapper with 14 intel at Fighter or Paladin levels but adds more strength top of item sets) intelligence and Human or 18 Intelligence Drow 2 rogue/1-6 Barbarian/6-16 Fighter...as much as possible.

Rogue2/Barbarian3-6/Fighter 12-16

The two builds below require 14 intelligence only.

Rogue2/Bard12-16/Ranger6-12

Rogue2/Bard12-16/Barbarian 2-8 are other


These are managable adventuring warrior with brains and talents builds 14-16 Intell max OLDSCHOOL sets.


Paladin is better for tank off healer warrior with Rogue/Fighter/Paladin combo. Still requires higher intelligence score supported by Harper opposing the ones above.


Lately Artificer and Eldricht Knight wizard (also Druid) are off the roof builds for +% armor class and hitpoint bonuses and crossbow styles with specialist caster combos. Thyre nowhere Oldscool and intelligence warrior but somehow (and who knows why?) buffed scientist/caster/N0rris builds of New age. These builds work better for casting/ranged/Harper support builds.



All are viable and more exist at DDO if you aim Intelligence builds that are not original adventuring bookworm wizard;but bookworm warrior. (I would never say 'No' if devs would asked if we want better class/skill/feat/enhancement... abilites for wise and cunning warrior builds)



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/63/0d/69/630d691e05d44eb407e681702d9ff824.jpg

[Fenrisulven7]

that is super-easy barely an inconvenience -

FIFY

(sry, couldn't resist)

https://youtu.be/OEaSnmf1JwY?t=27

[Kutalp]

Long story short, never go pure dps or pure tank as Fighter and similar class builds.

Sadly they re not reworked enough. I will try to summarise also counting bare abilities and specialities of said classes without many past lives and gear sets and spell clickies barrowed from caster(like) destinies.



The major problem that set deadly encounters for most non- catered classes is Elemental spell damage and Level drain attacks. Warrior classes also do not have enough Innate damage soaking ability but have to pin themselves to a specific type of armor which kills the flexiblity at encounters. The real tough times start at Epic settngs of quests that pop up physical damage dealing auto elemental damage bursting Champions which are more dangerous then bosses at times; since they come in teams.


Eg: Barbarian has %10 physical damage soaking ability as pure stones and stick builds. Thats all. Fighter has +12 prr/mrr without the chance to evade and laughable amount of dodge chance without real reflex support.


Meanwhile casters and ranged classes especially being catered and being spoilt child of the family, have higher in general saves, at least damage reduction and soaking ability at lower enhancements. Caster level based innate elemental spell resistance that scales aswell as fast scaling attack, cast speed and aoe effects. Insanely cheap %50 chance to take no damage plus ghostly, barrowed dodge like abilities from rogue class and passive elental and physical damage soaking abilites.

Thus playing melee and old classes require much more player skill and the knowledge to swap item sets between encounters.


If you want the challange thats melee and old classes. If you want easy go thats ranged and caster combo and newest classes and enhancement trees.


I hope it changes in near future and we can tell newer players that they can go for tough warrior builds and have fun.


The best you can do is to pick best saves, dodge, elemntal rsistance, hp items and enhancements and combining it with semi tanky and enough dps dealing build.Ps: If you wish to go high skiller build Human is the right choice.

[RAFAR]

Eg: Barbarian has %10 physical damage soaking ability as pure stones and stick builds. Thats all. Fighter has +12 prr/mrr without the chance to evade and laughable amount of dodge chance without real reflex support.


https://ddowiki.com/page/Improved_Uncanny_Dodge - this is similar to Displacement (and they work together, btw), as long as it lasts. Not 100% uptime, but cannot be pierced by true seeing, either. Also, barbs get very high heal amp from all 3 trees which helps a lot with regaining those lost hit points. Fast.

Stalwart defense stance gives +10prr/mrr, tier1 3ranks +15 prr/mrr, plus he can take heavy armor special feats for an additional passive +30 prr/mrr, this is +55 overall, and can be taken on an offensive build. (ok, maybe the first 1-2 heavy armor feats aren't worth it)

[Kutalp]

https://ddowiki.com/page/Improved_Uncanny_Dodge - this is similar to Displacement (and they work together, btw), as long as it lasts. Not 100% uptime, but cannot be pierced by true seeing, either. Also, barbs get very high heal amp from all 3 trees which helps a lot with regaining those lost hit points. Fast.

Stalwart defense stance gives +10prr/mrr, tier1 3ranks +15 prr/mrr, plus he can take heavy armor special feats for an additional passive +30 prr/mrr, this is +55 overall, and can be taken on an offensive build. (ok, maybe the first 1-2 heavy armor feats aren't worth it)






True.

My humble opinion through gameplay is, Stalward worths more with Light armor, dodge, evasion and shield. Especially Half Orc (Dwarf may be right after it but more expensive AP wise). Bard/Rogue/Fighter seems to beat Rogue/Fighter/Barbarian many ways. One of the reason is blur stacking with dodge and stalward and hp buffs (although Barb gives more hp and heal amp it is not enough) top of all those simple glitterdust is a killer. Just pull a big team of npcs glitter then keep bashing. Needs enough bard level and items for extra DCs. Works at epics aswell.

I wont speak further about Swashbuckler critical bonuses (smaller weapons scale much better as the character level + SWF speed and ability bonus...Not a joke) and buckler bonuses sigh...

But DDO is not static and things keep changing although it can be slow or faster for different bits.