Update on my TWF dagger assassin-VKF pure rogue, and Level 18 Feat question

[0ldschool]

Sorry in advance for the wall of text…

Zamsil is about to take Level 18 now. Assassinate has been more fun and more effective that I could have hoped for! This is the DDO I wanted.

My Assassinate is around 53 or so now, which I find is almost always effective at level on Elite. There are obviously some quests that don’t lend themselves to lots of it (large groups of mobs that are perceptive), but for the most part it’s been great, with double Assassinations pretty easy to come by. I can Assassinate through lots of quests, and when the time comes to break stealth and attack, the damage output with dual daggers (now at 100% offhand proc) is really impressing me. I don’t think that Assassinate can ever be OP, because it is SLOW. This happens to work for me, as I’m a solo flower sniffer by nature. But for the XP/min crowd, this playstyle is never going to fly. Which is perfectly fine, but it does make grouping a challenge. If I were a dedicated grouper, I would probably bail on the assassin stuff and just go uber DPS. Notably I’m not playing Reaper, and I am anticipating that Assassinate is going to start to break down in EE due to the huge increase in mob CRs. Still, I’m going to ride this train as long as I can.

Assassin 41 - VKF 29 – and probably TA 11, though still TBD. I’m passing on KtA , which most of you would not, but I played around with Sweeping Strikes earlier and really like it, so I may go for that (thanks forum for the knowledge that it doesn’t break stealth, and thus is awesome!). I’ve always been really intrigued by the TA tree, and I may actually do a stick rogue next life.

I hesitated last night on taking Level 18 because I’m not sure what feat to take. The TWF defense and blocking feats are pretty modest benefits, I feel like I should be getting more for a feat. I’m toying with the ideas of Resilience or the even more boring Toughness.

I am also considering Quick Draw, since throwing daggers are my ranged weapon, but I tested with Blurfingered Gloves last night and saw no increase in attack speed? Does anyone know if Quick Draw is broken, or are the gloves broken? I can take the feat to find out, but I’d rather not waste a re-spec if I can avoid it.

Perhaps the most intriguing is Sap. Here is a thread with LazarusPossum talking about fitting Sap in with Assassinate. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/495781-Assassinate-and-stealth
Much like Sweeping Strikes, anything that I can work into a sequence with Assassinate to handle larger mob groups is very desirable. Is Sap working well for any assassin's out there?

Appreciative of any and all advice. Thanks!

[unbongwah]

Quick Draw is free from the Vistani core. If you think TWD is poor ROI, Toughness is worse.

Other feats to consider: Hamstring, Improved Feint, Finesse if you use other weapons.

[Saekee]

can you take PL Sneak of Shadows (rogue PL)? Or do you have a past life in Warlock?

For stealth play, the Warlock active PL is insanely fun and a gamechanger. Sneak of Shadows is a DPS boost but you must do an annoying cast animation that takes an odd amount of time

Improved feint is great to take early

Another option for new toons is the sp one magical training so in epics you can always toss a coccoon. However it is not needed with sp clickies etc and reaper freebie sp refill drops

[0ldschool]

Quick Draw is free from the Vistani core.

Well that explains it. Thank you!

[0ldschool]

can you take PL Sneak of Shadows (rogue PL)? Or do you have a past life in Warlock?

For stealth play, the Warlock active PL is insanely fun and a gamechanger. Sneak of Shadows is a DPS boost but you must do an annoying cast animation that takes an odd amount of time

Improved feint is great to take early

Another option for new toons is the sp one magical training so in epics you can always toss a coccoon. However it is not needed with sp clickies etc and reaper freebie sp refill drops

No past lives, I'll keep that in mind for the future though. I took Improved Feint early on, thanks to your posts here. Love it, keeping Bluff high just for that, so thank you.

Interesting idea with Magical Training. I toyed with twisting Endless Faith on my other toon, but I found that I rarely needed more SP than I had for one quest, between Cocoon and UMD'ing the occasional Heal scroll. I think Sap is the best choice for fun/interesting/something new, while Resilience is practically the best choice. +1 AC and + 5 PRR from TWFD just doesn't sound as valuable as +4 to all saves, at least to me. I would take Mobility if I could, but it's blocked by Dodge. I even started to think about 2 levels of Monk for the extra martial feats, and the stances. I know nothing about Monks, but I would certainly take Ocean stance if I could, it looks pretty good to me. But I can't give up the assassin capstone, so that ship has sailed.

Thanks again!

EDIT: I started to get really intrigued by Wind Stance (any +DEX is huge for this toon, even with a HP reduction) before realizing the Centered requirement. While VKF would allow me to stay centered with daggers, no light armor is a deal breaker :(

[unbongwah]

Resilience is a combat stance which means it won't stack with Precision.

Never take Resilience. If they ever got rid of the spell cool down penalty it might be useful to casters, but it's useless to melee and ranged builds.

[0ldschool]

Resilience is a combat stance which means it won't stack with Precision.

Never take Resilience. If they ever got rid of the spell cool down penalty it might be useful to casters, but it's useless to melee and ranged builds.

Ummm. I thought that you could have a Defensive Combat Stance and an Offensive Combat Stance active at the same time. Is that not true?

[Arkat]

Ummm. I thought that you could have a Defensive Combat Stance and an Offensive Combat Stance active at the same time. Is that not true?

You can.

EDIT: Jetrule is correct (See below). I got messed up by not distinguishing Offensive/Defensive stances and Ranged stances.

[Jetrule]

Ummm. I thought that you could have a Defensive Combat Stance and an Offensive Combat Stance active at the same time. Is that not true?

As far as I know that only works with epic defensive fighting and any other feat granted stance. Offensive or defensive. With no past life feats available I would lean towards two weapon defense or weapon focus pierce here.

The wiki says *Offensive and Defensive Combat Stances do not work with each other but one of either type does work with any ranged stance*

I have found epic defensive fighting and one of power attack precision or combat expertise work together fine.

[0ldschool]

As far as I know that only works with epic defensive fighting and any other feat granted stance. Offensive or defensive. With no past life feats available I would lean towards two weapon defense or weapon focus pierce here.

The wiki says *Offensive and Defensive Combat Stances do not work with each other but one of either type does work with any ranged stance*

I have found epic defensive fighting and one of power attack precision or combat expertise work together fine.

Yes, it looks like that is correct. And there goes the Resilience idea. The last thing I would ever give up is Precision. I'm left thinking that heroic feats are crappy, and I just have to choose the least crappy one. TW Defense and Weap Focus Pierce are clearly decent choices, but added value that isn't all that good now and will be almost nil in Epics. Funny thing is that I just realized that the feat that would provide me the most immediate benefit, as boring as it may be, is actually Skill Focus:UMD. UMD + 3 would be really handy for me as I start to reach for the all important UMD 40 & 44 scrolls. Well, something else to consider.

Thanks for the info!

EDIT: Thinking about it after I typed this, Skill Focus:UMD is the obvious choice for me. I leaned heavily on UMD with my Mechanic, and had +3 from the Mech tree enhancement and temporary +6 from Skill Boost, also from the Mech tree. In comparison, my Assassin is struggling to use the same scrolls and wands I was using easily on my Mechanic. I considered (and am still considering) a dive into Inquis or Mech to get that boost again. I also dearly miss Wand and Scroll Mastery. UMD is never a bad investment on a rogue.

[Mindos]

Whats your total dodge, max dex bonus, armor bonus, etc?

I would take sap or dodge. Sap is great, often overlooked. No save, longer duration from sneak. It's the bomb. Dodge keeps you alive. So either or.

[0ldschool]

Whats your total dodge, max dex bonus, armor bonus, etc?

I would take sap or dodge. Sap is great, often overlooked. No save, longer duration from sneak. It's the bomb. Dodge keeps you alive. So either or.

Standing Dodge of 13% with a cap of 19%, capped by MDB 12 of Wildcard light armor + 6 from Light Armor Mastery +1 Sapphire of Armored Agility. Yes, ideally it would be higher than 13%. I can get up to 19% from Nimbleness, not ideal since you have to get hit but it is there. And for 50% of the time I'm at max dodge anyway using the Mabar dodge candy that adds Listen to dodge (best event item ever!). So it wasn't obvious to me that a sometimes used +3% Dodge would be worth a feat.

Does Sap break stealth? If it does not, then it sounds amazing and I'm taking it for sure. But my sense is that it does.

EDIT: I forgot about Measure the Foe. With that, I have 19% Dodge during sneak and for 10 seconds after sneak breaks. So that is a good chunk of the time that I'm in combat right there. I am realizing now that I should do everything I can get my MDB maxed.

[0ldschool]

I would take sap or dodge. Sap is great, often overlooked. No save, longer duration from sneak. It's the bomb. Dodge keeps you alive. So either or.

I took Sap. Sap is a keeper. I used it tonight as a go-to after an Assassinate when a mob nearby spotted me and broke my sneak. It basically takes 1 mob out of action, so increases the # of mobs I can take on by one. It takes a little thought to hit with Sap once and then move on, so as to not immediately un-stun the Sapped mob, but its very doable. I imagine that this is not nearly as useful on a toon that always groups.

I put Solipsism on the Leg. Drow Sages Cowl on my last toon, and it had a similar effect. But that was random, not procing very often, and was a lot shorter duration. This is targeted and lasts a long time. I really like it, thanks. The best part is no save. It reminds me of no save procs from Shiradi like Pin, Otto's, & Nerve Venom, which gave my Mechanic his only real CC. Now I'm dreaming of an AoE Sap!

[Kutalp]

Nice build.



If to go pure Assasin and naturally melee, I wouldnot skip Improved feint and Sap. Thy're both just amazing.

Anyhow I wish Assasin tree was updated in a way that Assasins could be able to use entire abilites toggle effect: Melee/Ranged.


What I go for heroic feats at all builds (even at casters lately) is Precision, Pointblankshot, Rapidshot, Improved criticial Throwing or Ranged (I like throwing more lately), Die Hard. (Ranged feats work at all ranges and at all builds to save SP, to damage enemies or to soften tem up between spells even with THF build)


Rest is either Quickdraw if not caster. Spell focus line is caster. Insightful reflexes for wizard, Force of Personality for bard, Mental toughness or toughness if room left. (When Human)

I used to go Dodge line and whirlwind. Extra dodge is nice but not fair enough from so many feats, whirlwind is better with Ravager/Kensei. Waste with TWF.

I would like to grab extra saves feats or skill feats and more but all are ridiclously weak for feats. (A pure fighter with 2-6 levels of rogue might consider taking them)



Have a good time. :cool:


https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/icewind-dale/images/8/85/Halfling_Male_Thief_Portrait_HAMT_G.png/revision/latest?cb=20180522181415

[Saekee]

so you took Sap? That can be fun. Doublestrike hits seem to break it if I recall and yes, the solipsism effect is similar. Even if you know it will break from another hit, you can use it to disrupt a caster animation (attack spell).

I used to use it on isolated mobs if I failed an assassinate. I would sap them, drop back into sneak, hit bluff and try assassinate again. Rinse repeat...now you can skip the bluff part so even easier.

In the future, splashing 1 monk can be very fun early and running centered. You can stack ninja faster sneaking, use wraps on some mobs, and if you have Perfect Pinnacle you can run in fire stance and have lots of blinds proc with weapons. In fact, I am surprised to not see more ninjassassin flavor builds using it for heroics.

[0ldschool]

I used to use it on isolated mobs if I failed an assassinate. I would sap them, drop back into sneak, hit bluff and try assassinate again. Rinse repeat...now you can skip the bluff part so even easier.

When my Assassinate starts to fail, that is exactly what I'll be doing too. For now, it makes 3 mob groups ( or even 4 if you get a double Assassinate to start with) a lot easier to handle as they can all be taken on one-on-one. There is a lot of value in that.


In the future, splashing 1 monk can be very fun early and running centered. You can stack ninja faster sneaking, use wraps on some mobs, and if you have Perfect Pinnacle you can run in fire stance and have lots of blinds proc with weapons. In fact, I am surprised to not see more ninjassassin flavor builds using it for heroics.

I am still tempted by a monk level. Not only for the extra martial feat but Wind Stance gives very nice bonuses to DEX and DPS. If the Assassin capstone did not exist, and you could stay centered with light armor, I would absolutely be pulling the trigger on a Monk level.

Perfect Pinnacle, just found it. Oh, that is cool. How often does the blind proc? I LOVED Blinding on my TF GxB, it was like instant death to the first attacked mob. But I could see how a mob running around like a chicken with its head cut off would not be ideal for a melee.

[0ldschool]

My first attempt to post a build from EllisDee's Character Planner Lite. This is roughly where I am now, with the Epics stuff still TBD. Includes my current planned dive into TA for Sweeping Strikes, but that may change, especially since I'm 1 AP short at the moment. There are 8 AP in play that could go anywhere. I've toyed with Halfling, Harper for KtA, and Inquis and even Mechanic tree dives for Skill Boost and some other perks.

Zamsil Orcusbourn
Rogue 20
True Neutral Halfling


Stats
. . . . . . . .32pt . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8. . . .4: DEX
Dexterity . . . 19. . . .8: DEX
Constitution. . 14. . . 12: DEX
Intelligence. . 16. . . 16: DEX
Wisdom. . . . . .9. . . 20: DEX
Charisma. . . . .8. . . 24: DEX
. . . . . . . . . . . . 28: DEX

Skills
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Disable . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Open Lo . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Search. . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spot. . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Bluff . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Diplo . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Jump. . . 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Hide. . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Move Si . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Balance . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .22
Tumble. . 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .44 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11


Feats

.1. . . . : Improved Feint
.3. . . . : Two Weapon Fighting
.6. . . . : Precision
.9. . . . : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Sap
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Improved Sneak Attack
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Harbinger of Chaos
30 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Astral Plane

10 Rogue. : Improved Evasion
13 Rogue. : Defensive Roll
16 Rogue. : Opportunist
19 Rogue. : Slippery Mind


Enhancements (82+1 of 80+1 AP) Errors

Assassin (41 AP) Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back, Assassin's Trick, Nimbleness, Lethality, Deadly Shadow Shiv III, Sneak Attack Training, Stealthy III
Sneak Attack Training, Damage Boost III
Sneak Attack Training, Dexterity
Execute, Killer III, Sneak Attack Training, Dexterity
Assassinate, Measure the Foe III, Knife Specialization, Light Armor Mastery III
Vistani Knife Fighter (29 AP) Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Rapid Attack
Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker
Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Deadly Blades, Dexterity
Vistani Knife Training, Celerity, Mist Stalker, Double Daggers, Dexterity
Thief-Acrobat (12 AP) Staff Control, Stick Fighting Sly Flourish II, Fast Movement
Subtlety III, Quick Strike I
Sweeping Strikes I
Halfling (1 AP) Halfling Luck

[DYWYPI]

Blinded monsters move and attack at half speed and are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks, as you'll be aware.


I LOVED Blinding on my TF GxB, it was like instant death to the first attacked mob. But I could see how a mob running around like a chicken with its head cut off would not be ideal for a melee.

Generally it's no problem having to chase Blinded mobs; the main hindrance is typically catching the strong mobile mobs that aren't blinded. For example when within a group and somebody decides to sprint around in a fleeing fashion, usually making it far more difficult to catch-up to that target to Assassinate or pin-down and allow you to melee one on one, toe-to-toe, etc. Typically that type of scenario occurs with the 'Vault of the Night' Raid PUGs, e.g. you'll have Casters fleeing Golems and making a truly poor fist of things - it can be a palaver - as you can easily 1-hit Golems on Epic Elite but only if you can catch them. :-/

Update: I even illustrated the usefulness of an Assassin Blinding opponents within the: R.O.G.U.E Part Quatre: Call for Stealthy Players!, Stealthy Repossession.


[...] I made good use of skulduggery; since my stealth skills weren't as fluid as they should have been. I wasn't on my normal Assassins so lacked any useful gear... I'll give you a hint of what I did when things went "a little ill" with the Prophets tracking me, near the start.

"A blind Kobold Prophet will not thank you for a looking-glass." >;-) ...

So as you can gather usually it's beneficial for an Assassin having blinded mobs close at hand. ;-)

[0ldschool]

Blinded monsters move and attack at half speed and are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks, as you'll be aware.



Generally it's no problem having to chase Blinded mobs; the main hindrance is typically catching the strong mobile mobs that aren't blinded. For example when within a group and somebody decides to sprint around in a fleeing fashion, usually making it far more difficult to catch-up to that target to Assassinate or pin-down and allow you to melee one on one, toe-to-toe, etc. Typically that type of scenario occurs with the 'Vault of the Night' Raid PUGs, e.g. you'll have Casters fleeing Golems and making a truly poor fist of things - it can be a palaver - as you can easily 1-hit Golems on Epic Elite but only if you can catch them. :-/

Update: I even illustrated the usefulness of an Assassin Blinding opponents within the: R.O.G.U.E Part Quatre: Call for Stealthy Players!, Stealthy Repossession.



So as you can gather usually it's beneficial for an Assassin having blinded mobs close at hand. ;-)

Thanks for the info. When I was looking for advice on what to put on my TF GxB, there were a lot of mixed feelings here on the forum regarding Blinding. It seemed a lot of the negative opinions were from the melee perspective. To me, it was wonderful from the get go on my Mechanic, and I was overjoyed that I chose it. I did not have a source of Improved Deception at the time, and seeing the burst of SA damage was a real eye opener to me just how much it mattered (it was my first toon). A no save full sneak attack damage proc on the first mob hit was devastating, they were instantly out of the fight and quickly dead. And it proc's on most mobs. I was genuinely sad to switch to the Morninglord GxB when the time came, which is numerically superior but not nearly as fun. And considering how long I farmed for Divine Artillery, and for the ingots for the TF GxB, being just handed the Morninglord GxB was extremely anti-climactic.

Well, it looks like I may have a Blinding TF dagger in my future. Thanks again.

[Saekee]

Perfect pinnacle blind procs a lot, not sure of %—I would assume 5% but it ‘feels’ higher.
Blinding mobs is also good defense!
It is useless against bosses but hey, switch weapons at that moment. Improved deception works on bosses so that is why peeps prefer it to blinding.

If one weapon blinds while the other one paralyzes...Throw in tendon slice and that blind mob will not wander anywhere.

I made a GS radiance kukri pre-vistani and then they killed it, so I am reluctant to make one again. But with Pinnacle I will get blinding on any weapon. It procs on shurikens! It is just a bummer that it is fire stance not wind

[Saekee]

let me add that I would not splash monk at your level since getting master of forms would add dps

I would do scion of ethereal not astral...unless you were doing a monk splash with max dodge as a dodge tank

[0ldschool]

let me add that I would not splash monk at your level since getting master of forms would add dps

I would do scion of ethereal not astral...unless you were doing a monk splash with max dodge as a dodge tank

Yeah, I put in the Epics stuff months ago and havent seriously considered it yet. I was focused on the Assassinate DC +4 at the time. +4% doublestrike too. The +4 max dodge won't do me much good unless I get my MDB really high. You're going to tell me that the extra 40+ sneak damage from scion of ethereal is simply too good to pass up. I know, I run with it on my Mechanic. By the time I need to decide, Assassinate may have failed me already and if another +4 won't make much of a difference, it'll be easy to take ethereal. I've heard that a DC over 100 is needed for LE content (mobs with good fort saves), and I'm not sure how feasible it is to get there.

[Arkat]

I've heard that a DC over 100 is needed for LE content (mobs with good fort saves), and I'm not sure how feasible it is to get there.

My Rogue's Assassinate DC is 105 and that's just not good enough for LE, end-game mobs. I'm sure, with a TON of effort, I could break 110 DC but I have so many alts, my time is too divided elsewhere. I've pretty much given up on my Assassin and am looking to convert her in to something else.

[0ldschool]

My Rogue's Assassinate DC is 105 and that's just not good enough for LE, end-game mobs. I'm sure, with a TON of effort, I could break 110 DC but I have so many alts, my time is too divided elsewhere. I've pretty much given up on my Assassin and am looking to convert her in to something else.

Thanks, that was the feeling that I got from reading forum posts. I have heard of Assassinate DCs around 120, but that must be a highly specialized build. Since this is my first assassin, I will be happy to Assassinate all the way to Legendary sticking to Hard if I have to, but it will be really sad for me when it breaks down in Elite, which will perhaps happen right when I get to Epics. I think I'm right around 56 now, including Measure the Foe. Considering this, the Assassinate +4 from Scion of Astral is almost ridiculously low. It should probably be +10 at a minimum if they want to tempt assassins.

Interestingly, you can see how Scion of Astral became worse as power creep happened, while Scion of Ethereal's Hide-sneak damage is written in a way that benefits from it. I'll bet that a Hide of 150 thus adding 50 sneak damage was not even remotely possible when these were first created.

Character Planner already changed. Thanks to all for the knowledge!

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I was reading a post on LE Sharn, and it was mentioned that, while it was not going well on brute mobs, there are types of mobs with low or no fortitude saves (constructs, etc.) that can still be reliably assassinated at any difficulty. That gives me some hope that I will at least have some use for it everywhere.

EDIT 2: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/497939-More-assassination-DC-for-SD-reaper-tree
After looking at this, it's pretty clear to me that there is no way I'm going to get to a 105 DC on Assassinate on my first life toon, even if I go to great lengths by gimping dps. My guess is that my Assassinate DC is going to level off in the 70's or the 80's with a concerted effort. Hopefully this is at least in that "works all the time in LH but never in LE" zone.

[0ldschool]

I hit Level 20 a few days ago. It came very quickly, at least for me.

Assassinating through Gianthold was a joy. I took me a LONG time to work through Madstone Crater, but it was a heck of a lot of fun. On another note, Assassinating my way through Devils Details was extremely interesting. Devil's Details is still for my money one of the toughest heroic quests for a solo rogue, with unavoidable large packs of mobs and teleporting orthons, etc. That quest was the bane of my existence about a year ago as I farmed in vain for Divine Artillery. This time, I was in there for well over an hour. For a quest that I thought I knew like the back of my hand, I had a totally new experience sneaking and assassinating through it. I found some nooks and crannies that feel like they were designed in just for me, and I just never would have known about them blasting through with my Mechanic. I snuck by mob packs that I wouldn't have thought I could, and snuck away in situations where I wouldnt have thought it was possible. I think this is my favorite part of playing an Assassin, known quests feel brand new, open up in a whole new way. It's not for everyone, because it is SLOW, so it's a lonely solo life, and the XP/min crowd is never going to embrace it, but it is absolutely for me.

I went ahead and did heroic Sharn saga at Level 20 (even though I hit heroic XP cap earlier than planned) because I really wanted to. For the most part, I kept my hirelings planted somewhere far off so I could do the assassin thing. Stealthing some of the quests was problematic, and I got a bit lazy and got myself killed a few times by triggering massive packs of mobs at once (including a pack of rats in House of Pain, to my great surprise), but for the most part it was again lots of fun.

I may still run heroic Vale and Soul Splitter, but I'm going to start sprinkling in KotB. My next post will likely be about my first attempt to Assassinate in EH/EE content, probably KotB. I just picked up +6 Assassinate DC from SD Tier 1 with my first ED points, so maybe I've got a shot.

Thanks for reading :)

P.S. Sap is great! As I learn to use it more effectively, it just gets better and better. Since it breaks stealth, it's most useful to me in that moment after I Assassinate when other mobs are onto me and I'm forced out of sneak. I love coming back to the sapped mob, dropping back into stealth, staring at him in a daze as my Assassinate timer tick down to zero, and then taking him out. A "no save" 18 second duration stun effect is an assassin's dream.

[Mindos]

P.S. Sap is great! As I learn to use it more effectively, it just gets better and better. Since it breaks stealth, it's most useful to me in that moment after I Assassinate when other mobs are onto me and I'm forced out of sneak. I love coming back to the sapped mob, dropping back into stealth, staring at him in a daze as my Assassinate timer tick down to zero, and then taking him out. A "no save" 18 second duration stun effect is an assassin's dream.

wiki reads it does 30 seconds if its from a sneak attack! Glad you are having fun.

[Saekee]

Devs ought to read your post #25 because that playstyle is not supported in reaper and many quest designs (but not all). There are tons of quests which on EE you can sneak through but often still need to somehow tank and dps a rednamed like Records of the Past or some Sharn ones

[0ldschool]

wiki reads it does 30 seconds if its from a sneak attack! Glad you are having fun.

Yep, that's true and it works. Sometimes I actually use up the full 30 seconds. If I'm still in Sneak, I hate to break stealth just to Sap, but if there is only one mob left and Assassinate is on timer, that's when I use the sneak Sap. It can and has been be a life saver. I find myself counting mobs like I never did with my Mechanic. Assassin requires a lot of awareness of your surroundings and mob count and their movement. It is a much more cerebral DDO than blasting away with my Mechanic. I only wish I had tried it sooner :)

[0ldschool]

Devs ought to read your post #25 because that playstyle is not supported in reaper and many quest designs (but not all). There are tons of quests which on EE you can sneak through but often still need to somehow tank and dps a rednamed like Records of the Past or some Sharn ones

I've been reading and Googling this forum for the better part of 18 months now, mostly about rogues, so I'm well aware of the stealth playstyle concerns and I appreciate the stealth supporters out there who champion the cause. I'm lucky in that I am still pretty new here, so the quests are still fresh enough that I'm OK sticking with Elite, and haven't felt the need to progress into reaper to challenge myself. I would absolutely appreciate more quests geared towards us with stealthy objectives. You are correct of course, I can stealth and assassinate through parts of quests, but there are always going to be DPS moments, most challenging of which is typically the rednames at the end of each quest.

From what I've read here, it sounds like the concern on the dev side with supporting stealth is allowing players to 'inivisi-zerg' through content, thus 'bypassing' the difficulty of the quest and just getting the end reward, XP/loot. We certainly don't want to get to a place in DDO where every player does this to blast through quests, and I appreciate that. But to just drop the hammer on an entire playstyle seems to be a clumsy and cold-hearted solution. It also happens to be one of the most skillful and cerebral playstyles, so it's really a crying shame to stomp on it.

I'm sure that this has been mentioned before, but if you make it undesirable to stealth in terms of XP/min, you will keep all of the non-stealth players from trying to take advantage of the playstyle. You could make the quest take longer by stealth (with longer stealth-able paths), but perhaps that can't be retroactively applied. Maybe better is to just reward less XP for completing quests by stealth. If a quest completed in stealth rewards 10k XP, vs. 30k XP for non-stealth completion and both take the same amount of time, I'm very confident that the vast majority of the player base would choose the non-stealth route. This XP 'nerf' may seem unfair to some, but if it clears the way for the devs to consider actively supporting the stealth playstyle, then it is worth the price to me.

It seems like there is a lot that COULD be done, it is just a matter of the will to make it happen. Thanks for reading :)

[0ldschool]

My first attempt to post a build from EllisDee's Character Planner Lite. This is roughly where I am now, with the Epics stuff still TBD. Includes my current planned dive into TA for Sweeping Strikes, but that may change, especially since I'm 1 AP short at the moment. There are 8 AP in play that could go anywhere. I've toyed with Halfling, Harper for KtA, and Inquis and even Mechanic tree dives for Skill Boost and some other perks.

Zamsil Orcusbourn
Rogue 20
True Neutral Halfling


Stats
. . . . . . . .32pt . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8. . . .4: DEX
Dexterity . . . 19. . . .8: DEX
Constitution. . 14. . . 12: DEX
Intelligence. . 16. . . 16: DEX
Wisdom. . . . . .9. . . 20: DEX
Charisma. . . . .8. . . 24: DEX
. . . . . . . . . . . . 28: DEX

Skills
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Disable . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Open Lo . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Search. . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spot. . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Bluff . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Diplo . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Jump. . . 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Hide. . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Move Si . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Balance . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .22
Tumble. . 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .44 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11


Feats

.1. . . . : Improved Feint
.3. . . . : Two Weapon Fighting
.6. . . . : Precision
.9. . . . : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Sap
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Improved Sneak Attack
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Harbinger of Chaos
30 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Ethereal Plane

10 Rogue. : Improved Evasion
13 Rogue. : Defensive Roll
16 Rogue. : Opportunist
19 Rogue. : Slippery Mind


Enhancements (82+1 of 80+1 AP) Errors

Assassin (41 AP) Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back, Assassin's Trick, Nimbleness, Lethality, Deadly Shadow Shiv III, Sneak Attack Training, Stealthy III
Sneak Attack Training, Damage Boost III
Sneak Attack Training, Dexterity
Execute, Killer III, Sneak Attack Training, Dexterity
Assassinate, Measure the Foe III, Knife Specialization, Light Armor Mastery III
Vistani Knife Fighter (29 AP) Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Rapid Attack
Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker
Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Deadly Blades, Dexterity
Vistani Knife Training, Celerity, Mist Stalker, Double Daggers, Dexterity
Thief-Acrobat (12 AP) Staff Control, Stick Fighting Sly Flourish II, Fast Movement
Subtlety III, Quick Strike I
Sweeping Strikes I
Halfling (1 AP) Halfling Luck

Update: I'm throwing out the TA stuff other than Fast Movement. Sweeping Strikes is cool, but it just isn't worth switching to a staff and then back to daggers for only a 4 second trip that doesn't do a lot of damage. Sap (which I am loving) has given me an extra attack to pair with Assassinate and I can't handle another. I'll have to see what the loss of -50% threat reduction does, but it's clear to me that investing the 8 AP in Halfling is AP better spent, which gets me +2 DEX, +2 saves, & +3 MDB and Dodge cap (Nimble Reactions, though I'm seriously considering putting 1 AP aside for Guile). The synergy around DEX is amazing with this toon, and any investment in DEX is worth its weight in gold. I plan to give up a lot of goodies in SD for the DEX enhancements for this very reason.

EDIT: Nimble Reaction and Guile (Halfling T2) have T1 prereqs. Ugh. Work in progress.

[choco1212]

Yeah, I put in the Epics stuff months ago and havent seriously considered it yet. I was focused on the Assassinate DC +4 at the time. +4% doublestrike too. The +4 max dodge won't do me much good unless I get my MDB really high. You're going to tell me that the extra 40+ sneak damage from scion of ethereal is simply too good to pass up. I know, I run with it on my Mechanic. By the time I need to decide, Assassinate may have failed me already and if another +4 won't make much of a difference, it'll be easy to take ethereal. I've heard that a DC over 100 is needed for LE content (mobs with good fort saves), and I'm not sure how feasible it is to get there.

114 seems OK in Reaper Sharn in Ethereal

[0ldschool]

114 seems OK in Reaper Sharn in Ethereal

Thanks. That also could be due to the mobs you are targeting, I've heard that constructs are easy pickings. But if DC of 114 is getting all mobs, then that's a good data point to have, even if I have zero chance of getting to 100 on this life. As I assassinate into EE, I think that there are a number of cases of failed assassinations that are not due to DC checks. Perhaps I am just seeing the randomness of the mob rolls, but it feels like something else is going on. An extremely valuable addition to the combat log would be a line about why the assassination failed. My guess is that less of them are a result of a too low DC than most would assume.

[DYWYPI]

You might be just simply missing hitting some mobs with your blades; rolling one, when trying to Assassinate in some cases. Assuming the "vulnerable target" doesn't high armour class and fortification and isn't a pesky Champion combination.

[0ldschool]

Update from OP:

I'm about to take Level 22. I've been slow due to the holidays. I did take the time to upgrade my Level 15 gear set to a Level 21 that included 4 ML21 pieces from KotB. It's weaved in with the Sharn Family set, 4 CC items, and my trusty Ring of the Stalker. The Lesser Displacement trinket and FoM Boots were calling me! Other KotB pieces are White Hood of Schemes and Ring of Subtle Villainy. It was pretty questionable to leave out the Belt of Subtle Villainy, but I had some very tough decisions to make to work Doublestrike into the set. With the extra DPS it provides, I just can't see leaving it out as an option.

Oh, I assassinated my way through EE KotB fairly successfully with a DC around 70. I had my share of failures for sure, but it was mostly working. Don't get me wrong, I died multiple times, but it was still overall pretty fun. That was before I assembled my ML21 gear set. Now I'm more survivable and it's manageable on Elite, esp. since I've worked my way up in SD with a bunch of extra MP and Meld/Invis etc.

So I was reading the forum yesterday and saw someone complaining about Epic Defensive Fighting, and thought to myself "oh yeah, what was that again?". I was around last year when that hit, with much controversy as I recall, but I was playing my Mechanic (my first toon, this one being my second) so gave it little thought, since it's unusable for ranged. Logged in last night, dragged the EDF feat to a bar, turned it on, and my HP magically went from 592 to 710! It's great to get that kind of boost when your used to less. The zero RP will probably burn me on the few occasions when I need to pull out a throwing dagger, and I'll have to get used to the touch range penalty, but I will happily take the HP, even if the feat is a less than ideal solution to the melee survivability problem.

BTW, my daggers are Drow Dagger/Epic Cursed Shard (which I just got) at the moment, with Liturgy still sprinkled in as well. At Level 22, I'll have to give TF some thought and at Level 23 it's Agony time.

[Saekee]

nice! Vistani gives ranged power equal to melee power in the tree if you are worried about really needing to toss a dagger but I would not sweat it. I use the Cormyrian ones and might just load a level 24 one with some sentience since the spellplague effect is fun and doubles the number thrown (so I would add some kind of acid effect or somethimg that is 4d6 + 1d6/level, then doubled and then doubled again with rapid throw +100% doublestrike)

[0ldschool]

Blinded monsters move and attack at half speed and are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks, as you'll be aware.



Generally it's no problem having to chase Blinded mobs; the main hindrance is typically catching the strong mobile mobs that aren't blinded. For example when within a group and somebody decides to sprint around in a fleeing fashion, usually making it far more difficult to catch-up to that target to Assassinate or pin-down and allow you to melee one on one, toe-to-toe, etc. Typically that type of scenario occurs with the 'Vault of the Night' Raid PUGs, e.g. you'll have Casters fleeing Golems and making a truly poor fist of things - it can be a palaver - as you can easily 1-hit Golems on Epic Elite but only if you can catch them. :-/

Update: I even illustrated the usefulness of an Assassin Blinding opponents within the: R.O.G.U.E Part Quatre: Call for Stealthy Players!, Stealthy Repossession.



So as you can gather usually it's beneficial for an Assassin having blinded mobs close at hand. ;-)


I'm posting this for the next person searching the forum like me for answers. The TF dagger with Blinding is great! DYWYPI was correct. Chasing blinded mobs is not an issue, and full time sneak attack damage is so worth it, even if it is just one mob per 12 seconds. The no-save "almost always procs" nature of the Blinding Fear is a great choice for any toon with SA damage. Right now, I'm at Level 25 and wielding Agony & TF Tier 1. When I hit Level 26, Epic Assassin's Kiss is waiting for me. It clearly out DPS's the TF dagger, but I am left wondering if there is value in dual wielding daggers each with Improved Deception, or if they don't stack and Blinding is the better choice as another SA proc. Also wondering if there would be value in wearing something like the Leg. Celestial Sapphire Ring (Improved Deception) while wielding a dagger(s) that also have Improved Deception. If they proc independently, this sounds like a really great idea to me :)

[0ldschool]

Yeah, I put in the Epics stuff months ago and havent seriously considered it yet. I was focused on the Assassinate DC +4 at the time. +4% doublestrike too. The +4 max dodge won't do me much good unless I get my MDB really high. You're going to tell me that the extra 40+ sneak damage from scion of ethereal is simply too good to pass up. I know, I run with it on my Mechanic. By the time I need to decide, Assassinate may have failed me already and if another +4 won't make much of a difference, it'll be easy to take ethereal. I've heard that a DC over 100 is needed for LE content (mobs with good fort saves), and I'm not sure how feasible it is to get there.

I don't think I realized at the time just how much up-time I would have on sneak attack. Between Improved Deception on dagger(s) and/or Blinding, along with Improved Feint (and Shiv) which is still bluffing just fine now at Level 25 (EH not EE), I am starting to believe those 'almost 100% sneak attack up-time' posts that I've been reading. In retrospect, it seems silly that I even thought about anything other than Scion of Ethereal.

I've started to mix in Assassinate with traditional DPS tactics. This was partly to move along quicker, partly due to Assassinate not working 100% of the time, and because this VKF assassin is dealing some serious damage! I find myself drifting away from sneaking/stealth tactics, which I really shouldn't be doing if for no other reason than Measure the Foe. I'm pretty sure that by Level 30, my assassin is going to out-DPS my L30 mechanic.

I'm still using my ML21 gear set, which is ML15 Sharn Part of the Family set along with 4 ML21 KotB named items, my Tier 3 Ring of the Stalker, and 4 ML21 CC items to fill in the gaps. My plan is that this gear gets me to cap, when I switch out to a legendary gear set. I'll have to start planning that asap, either Leg. Part of the Family or Leg. Silent Avenger, we'll see what makes sense. I can't seem to remove the Leg. Shadowhail cloak from my rogue gearsets no matter what I do. My Mechanic is currently using Leg. Wallwatch set along with the Shadowhail. So I'll probably need another Leg. Shadowhail, which was my white whale when I was putting together my first end-game gearset in early 2019, the final piece of the puzzle to drop. Amber Temple again! Noooooo!!!!!!!!!!

[Carpone]

Scion of Ethereal gets even better when you craft a Legendary Green Steel triple DEX skills item for +39 to DEX skills (+13 sneak attack damage and +87 net HP).

Legendary Part of the Family is the way to go, especially when you start raiding Project Nemesis and get The Family's Blessing for +2 quality Assassinate.

43 Assassin (all T5 and capstone), 23 Vistani for Celerity and Double Daggers, 7 Harper for KtA, 3 Thief Acrobat for Fast Movement, rest in racials. As you accumulate Universal AP Tomes, Racial AP Tomes and Racial Past Lives, the Halfling racial enhancements pair very well with Assassin (+2 DEX, +3 attack, +3 sneak attack dice, +3 max dodge/MDB).

Feats:
1 TWF
3 Completionist
6 Precision
9 Improved TWF
12 Improved Critical: Piercing
15 Greater TWF
18 Weapon Finesse (for Flow)

21 Overwhelming Critical
24 Improved Sneak Attack
26 Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Blinding Speed
28 Tactician
29 Dire Charge
30 Sneak of Shadows
30 Scion of Ethereal Plane

ED: Shadow Dancer or Legendary Dreadnought.

With past lives, here's the potential for doublestrike, off-hand doublestrike and dodge (something to work towards if you like playing Assassin at end game):

Dodge:
21 item
10 Assassin Measure the Foe (temporary)
10 Assassin Nimbleness (temporary)
03 Shadowdancer Untouchable
= 44% dodge

Dodge Cap:
25 base
03 Assassin Light Armor Mastery
10 Assassin Measure the Foe (temporary)
03 Halfling Nimble Reaction
02 Fencing Master
= 43%

Maximum Dexterity Bonus:
26 Legendary Wildcard
06 Assassin Light Armor Mastery
02 Augment
03 Halfling Nimble Reaction
06 Shadowdancer Lithe
02 Fencing Master
= 45%

Double Strike:
05 Vistani Quick Reflexes
03 Scourge PL x3
03 Opportunist
24 Family’s Blessing
11 Hammerfist
05 Perfect TWF
20 Vistani Rapid Attack
05 Vistani Celerity
15 Part of the Family
09 Martial Doublestrike PL x3
= 100% mainhand doublestrike

Offhand Doublestrike
05 Vistani Quick Reflexes
06 Scourge PL x3
10 Perfect TWF
05 Vistani Celerity
= 26% offhand doublestrike

80% offhand from GTWF
20% offhand from Vistani Double Daggers
= 100% attacks offhand and main

[Xharath]

Update: I'm throwing out the TA stuff other than Fast Movement. Sweeping Strikes is cool, but it just isn't worth switching to a staff and then back to daggers for only a 4 second trip that doesn't do a lot of damage. Sap (which I am loving) has given me an extra attack to pair with Assassinate and I can't handle another. I'll have to see what the loss of -50% threat reduction does, but it's clear to me that investing the 8 AP in Halfling is AP better spent, which gets me +2 DEX, +2 saves, & +3 MDB and Dodge cap (Nimble Reactions, though I'm seriously considering putting 1 AP aside for Guile). The synergy around DEX is amazing with this toon, and any investment in DEX is worth its weight in gold. I plan to give up a lot of goodies in SD for the DEX enhancements for this very reason.

EDIT: Nimble Reaction and Guile (Halfling T2) have T1 prereqs. Ugh. Work in progress.

why take the blinding speed feat? this can be passed by using a haste potion or a spell

[orobold]

why take the blinding speed feat? this can be passed by using a haste potion or a spell

Its an old thread, where some gearsets lacked melee alacrity. Using pots besides being a pain to do, breaks your hitting animation and thus, dps. The haste spell relies on having a caster and not all of them prepared it because they had no use for it. Nowadays theres plenty of alacrity options so wouldnt be the best choice for a melee.

[Xharath]

Scion of Ethereal gets even better when you craft a Legendary Green Steel triple DEX skills item for +39 to DEX skills (+13 sneak attack damage and +87 net HP).

Legendary Part of the Family is the way to go, especially when you start raiding Project Nemesis and get The Family's Blessing for +2 quality Assassinate.

43 Assassin (all T5 and capstone), 23 Vistani for Celerity and Double Daggers, 7 Harper for KtA, 3 Thief Acrobat for Fast Movement, rest in racials. As you accumulate Universal AP Tomes, Racial AP Tomes and Racial Past Lives, the Halfling racial enhancements pair very well with Assassin (+2 DEX, +3 attack, +3 sneak attack dice, +3 max dodge/MDB).

Feats:
1 TWF
3 Completionist
6 Precision
9 Improved TWF
12 Improved Critical: Piercing
15 Greater TWF
18 Weapon Finesse (for Flow)

21 Overwhelming Critical
24 Improved Sneak Attack
26 Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Blinding Speed
28 Tactician
29 Dire Charge
30 Sneak of Shadows
30 Scion of Ethereal Plane

ED: Shadow Dancer or Legendary Dreadnought.

With past lives, here's the potential for doublestrike, off-hand doublestrike and dodge (something to work towards if you like playing Assassin at end game):

Dodge:
21 item
10 Assassin Measure the Foe (temporary)
10 Assassin Nimbleness (temporary)
03 Shadowdancer Untouchable
= 44% dodge

Dodge Cap:
25 base
03 Assassin Light Armor Mastery
10 Assassin Measure the Foe (temporary)
03 Halfling Nimble Reaction
02 Fencing Master
= 43%

Maximum Dexterity Bonus:
26 Legendary Wildcard
06 Assassin Light Armor Mastery
02 Augment
03 Halfling Nimble Reaction
06 Shadowdancer Lithe
02 Fencing Master
= 45%

Double Strike:
05 Vistani Quick Reflexes
03 Scourge PL x3
03 Opportunist
24 Family’s Blessing
11 Hammerfist
05 Perfect TWF
20 Vistani Rapid Attack
05 Vistani Celerity
15 Part of the Family
09 Martial Doublestrike PL x3
= 100% mainhand doublestrike

Offhand Doublestrike
05 Vistani Quick Reflexes
06 Scourge PL x3
10 Perfect TWF
05 Vistani Celerity
= 26% offhand doublestrike

80% offhand from GTWF
20% offhand from Vistani Double Daggers
= 100% attacks offhand and main


27 Blinding speed
28 Tactician
29 Dire Charge

better feats are, dodge, mobility, spring attack

spring attack gives no more attack penalty whilst moving, quite handy i must say. plus a 2% dodge bonus. and a charge attack that does damage to all nearby mobs. great if you are running behind a group with the aggro on them already with the cleave effect and the sneak attack bonus youll be a great party addition

shiv works better than improved feint and does not require a feat.

so for bluffing enemys youll have, shiv, bluff, and diplo when with a group. thats quite sufficient in my experience.

these feat line is more suitible for end game i must add though that I play this line with a full triple completionist.