Proposal for feedback, The Bowman Tree

[Bacon_Burger]

I am a LONG time table-top player, AND a good friend of Lagin. We are part of a 12 person PnP group that have had a love/hate relationship with DDO. :cool:

Lagin posts here a lot, and sometimes we "force" :cool: him to make posts on our behalf. He takes some flack for those posts, and that's ok we know him, and frequently take advantage of him. (he secretly loves it when we do)

For the last 6 months we have looked at certain elements of DDO and are finally ready to go public with a few of our conclusions.

1st up is out version of the "Bowman" It is a tree designed specifically for long & short bow users. This game really needs this element brought in, as almost every path and class has something similar. AA & DWS are old and even with an update will fall short of the mark for bowmen.

We purposely left monks out of our considerations, as someone else could help give feedback and ideas without them becoming super OP. ALL of our attempts to curb the power curve for monks associated w/ the tree failed. So... we left it restricted to Fighter and Ranger for our own purposes.

*Ricocheting Arrows is for rolls that would be considered a miss. AND for multiple arrows fired in one volley.

** Some these abilities are 1/2/3 progressive**


This is designed to give bow users a new aspect of play style. Not increasing existing stats and abilities. It IS designed to work with other trees. And if you take up to T5 it has some great incentives.
Without further ado..... The Bowman

https://i.imgur.com/ybKqBnZ.png



https://i.imgur.com/iGkhDTI.png

[Captain_Wizbang]

Nice artwork. :cool:

[janave]

You have a couple of nice ideas in there, but the tree breaks the usual patterns quite a bit. Nice that you included a graphic. :)

Good Stuff:

- Alacrity volumes are about right
- Improving on Manyshot ( or even having an extra as a T5/Capstone is a nice one)
- Glancing shot would be a really great idea, altho preferring a toggle or active ability myself and for a bit better %s, maybe a shot for 200% glancing damage.
- Some good synergy with DWS

Not so good stuff:

- Class lock (altho understandable in some ways, due to overlap with other ranged styles) Capstone should not be locked to any class tho, 40 pts ap should allow you to take it regardless of class. (true for all cores)
- Some enhancements are not following established placement/wiring. eg: the stat increases.
- 3 arrows triggering a Wail is probably a tiny bit out of bounds.
- I dont like cores that are just passive DPS increases, i like stuff that adds "character" to builds.
- Shadow archer is too much, altho a little % of extra dodge would fit thematically, as a trained archer would be able to know how to dodge missile attacks.

Neutral:
- I would like arrow fletching.
- bonuses if both a quiver and a bow equipped
- I would like action boost: doubleshot for a bow ranger tree.
- I would personally like to see synergies with Monks, eg: Ki regen on vorpal shots, some centered Ki-arrow thingys.
- Some extra party support stuff
- Some extra raid debuffers
- Some melee attack with a bow equipped (if just for lols)
- Making bow fully 2 handed item treated with a T5/Capstone
- Making purpose for the "composite" bows.
- Opening room for "Greatbows" with appropriate tradeoffs, less accurate, less speed, more punch, more point blank knockdown goodness.

[Kutalp]

I liked the ideas.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/16/20/1e/16201e813a4f826642f0e6e272eda376.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efX1cKLki5Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu3mb5zQNM

' HOLD my beer... '

[barecm]

I am a LONG time table-top player, AND a good friend of Lagin. We are part of a 12 person PnP group that have had a love/hate relationship with DDO. :cool:

Lagin posts here a lot, and sometimes we "force" :cool: him to make posts on our behalf. He takes some flack for those posts, and that's ok we know him, and frequently take advantage of him. (he secretly loves it when we do)

For the last 6 months we have looked at certain elements of DDO and are finally ready to go public with a few of our conclusions.

1st up is out version of the "Bowman" It is a tree designed specifically for long & short bow users. This game really needs this element brought in, as almost every path and class has something similar. AA & DWS are old and even with an update will fall short of the mark for bowmen.

We purposely left monks out of our considerations, as someone else could help give feedback and ideas without them becoming super OP. ALL of our attempts to curb the power curve for monks associated w/ the tree failed. So... we left it restricted to Fighter and Ranger for our own purposes.

*Ricocheting Arrows is for rolls that would be considered a miss. AND for multiple arrows fired in one volley.

** Some these abilities are 1/2/3 progressive**


This is designed to give bow users a new aspect of play style. Not increasing existing stats and abilities. It IS designed to work with other trees. And if you take up to T5 it has some great incentives.
Without further ado..... The Bowman

https://i.imgur.com/ybKqBnZ.png



https://i.imgur.com/iGkhDTI.png

I like the concept. One thing I know from being a long time bow advocate with this game... they will not do alacrity bonuses as it breaks the game mechanics. They tried, but the engine simply cannot keep up.

Another thing I see is a +1 crit range in tier 2, which is probably a tier 4 or 5 type enhancement; which you also have in master archer....which is ridiculously overpowered.

I like the idea of this, I just think this is waaaay over the top in terms of power in a lot of slots

I like the concept of knockdowns and stuns, could be tied to dex + combat skills or whatever. I would suggest maybe changing fast attack to be bypass incorporeal.

I think you have the right idea to propose a tree for longbow and shortbow, however it would have to be a premium cash type deal in order to make it happen since they don't do anything good for free anymore.

[Potatofasf]

I am a LONG time table-top player, AND a good friend of Lagin. We are part of a 12 person PnP group that have had a love/hate relationship with DDO. :cool:

Lagin posts here a lot, and sometimes we "force" :cool: him to make posts on our behalf. He takes some flack for those posts, and that's ok we know him, and frequently take advantage of him. (he secretly loves it when we do)

For the last 6 months we have looked at certain elements of DDO and are finally ready to go public with a few of our conclusions.

1st up is out version of the "Bowman" It is a tree designed specifically for long & short bow users. This game really needs this element brought in, as almost every path and class has something similar. AA & DWS are old and even with an update will fall short of the mark for bowmen.

We purposely left monks out of our considerations, as someone else could help give feedback and ideas without them becoming super OP. ALL of our attempts to curb the power curve for monks associated w/ the tree failed. So... we left it restricted to Fighter and Ranger for our own purposes.

*Ricocheting Arrows is for rolls that would be considered a miss. AND for multiple arrows fired in one volley.

** Some these abilities are 1/2/3 progressive**


This is designed to give bow users a new aspect of play style. Not increasing existing stats and abilities. It IS designed to work with other trees. And if you take up to T5 it has some great incentives.
Without further ado..... The Bowman

https://i.imgur.com/ybKqBnZ.png



https://i.imgur.com/iGkhDTI.png

I loved you idea overall! Congratz for the effort!

Some additions, would be to expand the class to all melee, so it would cover some Zen Archery Monk, BowBarbarian and Paladin Hunter.
And instead of Class lock on Cores and Tier, make it stats or skill based, like to buy some core you need to have 17+ Dex/Str/Wis or to Arcane related enhancements need 10 Spellcraft (like Perform to Bard Songs).

I would like to play your Bowman Tree.

[barecm]

I agree with others as well. I think it needs to be a tree open to all, but will inevitably be a pay for tree. Just needs to be toned down in some areas. This would be wildly OP as is.

[cave_diver]

Nice work, but SSG wants everyone to play Inquisitor

[NyteSlayer]

i think a BowMan should be a Ranger exclusive tree but what do i know i just play rangers

[Bacon_Burger]

I loved you idea overall! Congratz for the effort!

Some additions, would be to expand the class to all melee, so it would cover some Zen Archery Monk, BowBarbarian and Paladin Hunter.
And instead of Class lock on Cores and Tier, make it stats or skill based, like to buy some core you need to have 17+ Dex/Str/Wis or to Arcane related enhancements need 10 Spellcraft (like Perform to Bard Songs).

I would like to play your Bowman Tree.


I agree with others as well. I think it needs to be a tree open to all, but will inevitably be a pay for tree. Just needs to be toned down in some areas. This would be wildly OP as is.


i think a BowMan should be a Ranger exclusive tree but what do i know i just play rangers


We appreciate the positive feedback.

We purposely made our suggestions to be focused on long & short bow users via Fighter & Ranger. And stayed away from adding monks for a very specific reason. We felt adding it to monk class would gain an unfair advantage as the way SSG has monks set up currently.

IF SSG made concessions to monks, it would have to be via restrictions, something we felt we weren't qualified to make recommendations on.

In no way should it be open to all as it defeats the premise of the tree. Rangers, Fighters and Monks w/ restrictions. We spent a lot of time discussing everything you see here. And our conclusions are sound. Some of the numbers might be bloated, but the way we see how SSG has a habit of doing that, we felt we are very close to realistic figures.

Too bad SSG hasn't given us any feedback as they said they read ALL threads.

[Sir_Noob]

Ha, just a note, must be how sick and twisted my mind is but when I first glanced at the tree mock up and spotted the T5 "Imp Volley" the first thing that popped into my head was "I wonder if that is anything like Dwarf-tossing?".

[Annihilyght]

I love the concept, this is great stuff. Would be nice if Elemental Arrows damage scaled with ranged power instead of spell power, but nonetheless, this is cool stuff. Thanks for putting it out there.

[Bacon_Burger]

I love the concept, this is great stuff. Would be nice if Elemental Arrows damage scaled with ranged power instead of spell power, but nonetheless, this is cool stuff. Thanks for putting it out there.


Thanks for the positive feedback and comments. We know there are a few things that may seem OP, but we geared this strictly to bow users. And we all know that segment has been overlooked and shunned by SSG far to long.

We (Dm from Hell, Spacejockey, Myself and Lagin) are very proud of the proposal.

I'm at Lagin's house again tonight working on our custom Valley of the Giants campaign for our hybrid AD&D/3.5/5e rule set. The conversation and sentiment towards SSG isn't a very pleasant one.

We sent this proposal to Steelstar & Severlin, BEFORE we published. After week, we said the hell with trying to give them it privately. They want to play this holier than thou attitude, without even a thank you, we published it for the community to see it, and help with pushing the issue.

So much for that.

I would love to hear more feedback, the other 3 have washed their hands of it.

[GeoffWatson]

They don't want detailed suggestions like this.

If they did use it, you could sue them for copying your idea.
Many Americans love the idea of suing, as they think it is a way of getting lots of money with little effort, if you can get a sympatheic jury or manipulate publicity.

So SSG won't use it, just in case.
If they had a similar idea in the works, they may have to abandon it to avoid the appearance of copying.

[Bacon_Burger]

They don't want detailed suggestions like this.

If they did use it, you could sue them for copying your idea.
Many Americans love the idea of suing, as they think it is a way of getting lots of money with little effort, if you can get a sympatheic jury or manipulate publicity.

So SSG won't use it, just in case.
If they had a similar idea in the works, they may have to abandon it to avoid the appearance of copying.


In the original PM sent, we waived any right to the concept. We will sign any waiver, have it notarized, what ever it takes in the highly unlikely chance it gets considered.

As DM from Hell said, a conversation w/ a SONY excec said dealing with the egos in play with ALL video game designers is like stingy children and their toys. Nothing personal meant, it's a blanket statement.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Not ONE DEV answered, that shows how things go.

ADD this to the necro threads for people to reply on

[Assassination]

Nice work, but SSG wants everyone to play Inquisitor

Yes, dual wielding rapid fire xbows are there thing, as stupid as it is. And it is terribly stupid.

[Assassination]

I really like this bow tree, nice work.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Exec producer Severlin said a "bow user" pass is slated for 2021.

Much applause ensues..........

Doesn't matter if our proposal is used or not. I just hope it doesn't go over the top like Inquisitor.

[Rykka]

The upcoming Universal Archer tree, tentatively named Horizon Walker will HOPEFULLY have it's powers designed AFTER the upcoming tweaking and measuring the the base power of bows. I would prefer to see existing bow builds made a little more fun (with a stronger base weapon) followed by a useful tree to make them more varied, rather than an OP tree that obsoletes anything that doesn't use it's T5 and/or capstone powers.

Bowman or Archery or Yoeman might be a better name for the Universal tree that Horizon Walker IMO, as that is traditionally a Ranger Prestige/Paragon thing that has more to do with movement than bow use I believe.

Adding a 4th tree strictly to benifit fighter/ranger would, as Severlin noted in the WWL vid, most likely give rise to a whole lotta people demanding a 4th tree for their favorite class. So I don't think that's gonna happen.

[Seph1roth5]

1. Don't quote the whole **** post people
2. Any particular reason why you named it bowman instead of archer? Bowman sounds weird...
3. Mostly good ideas, not a fan of elemental arrows because AA already does that and can already be used in any class that's an elf. Also agree with whoever said earlier not to put in class restrictions. FDI was already pushing it with magical training req lol.

[Captain_Wizbang]

1. Don't quote the whole **** post people
2. Any particular reason why you named it bowman instead of archer? Bowman sounds weird...
3. Mostly good ideas, not a fan of elemental arrows because AA already does that and can already be used in any class that's an elf. Also agree with whoever said earlier not to put in class restrictions. FDI was already pushing it with magical training req lol.

Baconator is on vaca, so I'll answer this.

Name; Bowman is the appropriate name. In most lore referring to ranged specialists, bowman is more commonly used.

We used elemental arrows to mirror AA tree in that respect, so classes other than ranger/fighter can utilize them. In our design we looked at everything...

Trust me, this isn't drawn up on a napkin.

We also know how SSG loves UT's, so we went with that premise.

Having another UT is a complete fail and a cop-out for what is needed. But no doubt that is the direction SSG will take. I'll eat a mile of crow dung if they can design a class specific tree vs a UT

[Bacon_Burger]

Now that U49 has started a most welcome change to bows, and how these changes will have symmetry w/ Horizon Walker coming this year, I felt it was time to open up the discussion of my Bowman Tree and what might be carried over to HW this year.

Not knowing the parameters of HW, surely this proposal we made will have some features built-in to HZ that resemble our Bowman Tree.

That's ok if SSG can't recognize plyer generated "ideas" (ours is a functioning system in our PnP realm) because of the "legal" thing. But the fact remains, when addressing a ranged enhancement tree, there are limitations and design elements that HAVE to overlap both concepts.

SO, after U49, what do you people think of our proposal?

[Lonnbeimnech]

I like the concept. One thing I know from being a long time bow advocate with this game... they will not do alacrity bonuses as it breaks the game mechanics. They tried, but the engine simply cannot keep up.

Another thing I see is a +1 crit range in tier 2, which is probably a tier 4 or 5 type enhancement; which you also have in master archer....which is ridiculously overpowered.

I like the idea of this, I just think this is waaaay over the top in terms of power in a lot of slots

I like the concept of knockdowns and stuns, could be tied to dex + combat skills or whatever. I would suggest maybe changing fast attack to be bypass incorporeal.

I think you have the right idea to propose a tree for longbow and shortbow, however it would have to be a premium cash type deal in order to make it happen since they don't do anything good for free anymore.

would prefer if the wail of the banshee arrow was a meteor swarm shot, with a 3.5 second cool down, scales with fire spell power and a max caster level of 30

[merridyan]

Baconator is on vaca, so I'll answer this.

Name; Bowman is the appropriate name. In most lore referring to ranged specialists, bowman is more commonly used.


I agree bowman sounds odd. Which lore? Eberron or Forgotten realms is it referenced in?