Rewards are weak considering all the carnage

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

Hardcore league is fantastic for a few reasons - bringing together the community, revitalizing the game, grouping, questing without zerging, a return to the feel of 2006 when the game was new - but the rewards are increadibly weak considering how popular the event is - only a tiny fraction of the participating population will likely achieve all 4 of the rewards - the majority of the community likely will not receive any. Yet, every other minute world spam announces player deaths - people logging in and playing, giving it their all.

If I were able, I would have in game rewards for achieving level 5, 10, 15, and 20 - as well as 5, 10, 15, and 20 reaper points. I would also have rewards for 500 favor, 1000 favor, 1750, and 5000 (though 5000 is pretty insane)

Also - for participating in the event EVERYONE who made a toon and survived should receive a pet, or a ribbon, or some cosmetic for being part of it. AND I would like to see a new decoration for guildships called 'The Shrine to the Fallen' to commemorate those lives lost during the Hardcore League 1 event - the buff being something like bonus XP when grouped or a special cast of a red blur spell or something.

[AlmGhandi]

I hope that next time the rewards will be different, and that the issues with the cosmetics will be resolved.
But I am not running my behind off on the server trying to got a cosmetic, that maybe other people cannot see.... I am running it off because it is fun. The rewards here have no effect on what I am doing.

[Ralmeth]

I totally agree. The rewards are lame, but I'm still running the event...For me it has nothing to do with the cosmetic rewards or the leader boards. I don't like any of the cosmetic rewards, and it's become apparent that the leader boards are for people with a lot of time to play, which I don't have. Instead, it's a personal challenge to see if I can make it to level 20 while running quests at level (adjusted) on elite. I've primarily been soloing as it seems everyone else wants to run 4 levels over.

One thing the developers should be aware of, is that cosmetic rewards are only going to go so far for future events, in terms of getting people to come back. If I'm able to achieve my goal, and future hardcore events only offer new versions of similar cosmetics, I will likely not participate.

[cdbd3rd]

I agree with the replies where just being on a crowded/active server is it's own reward, even for us Soloists.

I disagree (strongly) that everyone needs an "I participated" prize for just being there.

[TitusOvid]

I totally agree. The rewards are lame, but I'm still running the event...For me it has nothing to do with the cosmetic rewards or the leader boards. I don't like any of the cosmetic rewards, and it's become apparent that the leader boards are for people with a lot of time to play, which I don't have. Instead, it's a personal challenge...
snip

One thing the developers should be aware of, is that cosmetic rewards are only going to go so far for future events, in terms of getting people to come back. If I'm able to achieve my goal, and future hardcore events only offer new versions of similar cosmetics, I will likely not participate.

Totally on the point. TY.

[Mofus]

Got he 1750 reward and the level 20 reward, would love to see a level 30 reward as well. I wouldn't have a problem with the others listed by the op. I do love how the feel of nostalgia is here as well, hope they come up with some more ideas. I would like them to fine tune it for next time, the 4 levels over should also apply to level 16 thru 19 quests as long as epic destines aren't being used.

[SuperNiCd]

For me, playing on HCL has been its own reward. I started quite a few years late and never saw the game in its hey day. So it's cool to have a glimpse into what that was like (but with the modern improvements). Busy LFM panels, busy AH, busy chat channels, busy public areas; people actually needing stuff because they don't already have everything. It also gives me a bit of hope for what the game could possibly look like in the future.

I've also particularly enjoyed the death announcements. So much talk on the forum is about challenge and running everything on the hardest possible difficulty setting and how many skulls you can handle. Turns out a lot of people can't get though the low levels without dying lol - at least not without a lot of PLs, twink gear, etc. to hold them up.

The rewards seem OK for a first run of a seasonal server to me. I'm not huge into cosmetics, mostly because inventory management pretty much sucks in this game, and cosmetics are just one more thing to have to deal with in the TR cache. But I figure anyone that wants to get something to show for participation should be able to at least run to L20 on normal or even casual, right? I may do that if it looks like I'm going to run out of play time to get 1750.

[Cordovan]

It's interesting feedback. We wanted to keep things fairly simple, and this certainly set some high bars for victory, but we could look at more granular rewards (or a different reward structure altogether) were we to do something like this again. Definitely into hearing what you liked and didn't in regard to the rewards, and yeah, we know the Bloody Footprints not being visible to others is an issue.

[Fauxknight]

...considering how popular the event is - only a tiny fraction of the participating population will likely achieve all 4 of the rewards - the majority of the community likely will not receive any.


There are 5 rewards, though admittedly it looks like the reaper 20 reward might not be acheived by anyone. The reaper 10 and 5k favor rewards also look to be completed by a relatively small number of people. On the other hand the 1750 favor and level 20 should be easy for anyone to get.

I admit there will be a lot of players who get no rewards. I'm kind of dumbfounded by this, I see the same players doing the same Korthos/Harbor quests again and again every day because they died yet again. It's really not that hard to play it safe and get the first couple of rewards.

[Silverleafeon]

It's interesting feedback. We wanted to keep things fairly simple, and this certainly set some high bars for victory, but we could look at more granular rewards (or a different reward structure altogether) were we to do something like this again. Definitely into hearing what you liked and didn't in regard to the rewards, and yeah, we know the Bloody Footprints not being visible to others is an issue.

I would suggest starting with the cosmetic sash type cloak and building a lot upon it with variations as that would be easy for the art department as follows:

Working off the level 20 cosmetic, we have noticed that there is a roman numeral on one side of thus, build on that.

Each cosmetic has an increment in the roman numeral for each time said item has been earned.
EI: earn the level 20 cloak during two events = the cloak has II instead of I on it.
earn the level 20 cloak during three events = the cloak has III instead of II on it.
earn the level 20 cloak during four events = the cloak has IV instead of III on it.

{This make less cluster of bank space and less time spent on said item by artists, although it may give the coders a bit of pause.}


Secondly, add a different color to the cloak according to what level one earned cloak at:

EI:
<Orange or other color> on the border of a cloak for a person gaining level 10 with a toon on the HCL (essentially a participation prize).
<Red or the standard color> on the board of a cloak for a person gaining level 20 with a toon on the HCL (standard prize).
<Purple or other color> on the border of a cloak for a person gaining level 30 with a toon on the HCL (end game prize).




This covers players who might be playing it safe, while other rewards would deal with favor and reaper points.


For favor rewards, would suggest adding 3.5 k favor (double the 1750) as a reward for starters along with the 1.75 & 5k rewards.

Suggest a hat like Mortality wears possibly with a number on the back of it (if possible)?
One could vary thus.



For the reaper points, suggest altering the wings that are added to one's name from reincarnation with some sort of number therein.

Suggest dropping the reaper point prizes downward to 5 & 10.

Earn 5 for a silver roman number before your wings, earn 10 for a gold roman number after your wings.


Toss it around, and see what you come up with from the art department.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

If I were able, I would have in game rewards for achieving level 5, 10, 15, and 20 - as well as 5, 10, 15, and 20 reaper points. I would also have rewards for 500 favor, 1000 favor, 1750, and 5000 (though 5000 is pretty insane)

Also - for participating in the event EVERYONE who made a toon and survived should receive a pet, or a ribbon, or some cosmetic for being part of it. AND I would like to see a new decoration for guildships called 'The Shrine to the Fallen' to commemorate those lives lost during the Hardcore League 1 event - the buff being something like bonus XP when grouped or a special cast of a red blur spell or something.

I had hoped something similar - I don't think I'd ever get this far as the actual harcore league goals ...

And although I had found it very tempting to try the hardcore server myself, I doubt that I'm *that* hardcore ... Especially since I'm not able to properly calculate damage etc. due to my slight Dyscalculia ... My impression was that one has to be prepared - properly prepared - in order to succeed on the hardcore server - which I can't. Especially since my primary goal is story, not Reaper points or whatever ... even favour plays a minor role for me apart from the inventory and bank expansions.

[Ralmeth]

It's interesting feedback. We wanted to keep things fairly simple, and this certainly set some high bars for victory, but we could look at more granular rewards (or a different reward structure altogether) were we to do something like this again. Definitely into hearing what you liked and didn't in regard to the rewards, and yeah, we know the Bloody Footprints not being visible to others is an issue.

Since you’re open to feedback, here are my thoughts:

I don’t like the look of any of the cosmetics. I recommend having some different options people can pick from...One thought would be to create complete cosmetic sets (i.e. outfit, helm, and cloak) and then at various targets you can pick up the next piece. However the targets shouldn’t be stretch goals (ex. 5,000 favor). People could then work towards the outfit they like. For example, what I wouldn’t give for a Musketeer outfit...Another thought for intermediate goals are bound to character mirrors of Glamouring or a code for a store cosmetic, so that you could put together your own outfit as you level up. I bought one cosmetic helm and regretted it when I died. So I won’t buy any more, but if I won a mirror that would be cool to dress my character up for the run to 20.

When the hardcore league was first announced, I thought to myself that it would be a lot of work to make it to level 20, and I’m still working on it. I could be spending that time on my normal server and probably get a past life in the time it would take me to get to 20 on hardcore, given the fact that most likely you would die and need to restart. Combine that with the fact that there’s no guarantee you’ll even make it. It’s your game, so you need to figure out what you want to do, but how I envisioned running Hardcore was to prevent easy ways of farming XP (ex. You can only open quests on elite or reaper), and if you make it level 20 you are awarded a racial or heroic past life of your choice on any one character, limit 1/account. That would be a pretty cool target to go for that would keep me coming back for future events.

[Silverleafeon]

Additional suggestions and clarification for Cordovan:


Accumulating cosmetic numerals - that would be per season per account.


Also, suggest that you create a permanent hardcore server with the same ruleset along with a limited ddo store and possibly disable the shared bank access?
Cosmetics would be optional.
Edit: although perhaps the HCL would serve the same purpose as a hardcore server and be more exciting.

At the same time, would suggest that we have one hardcore season with a 90 day temporary season once per year (whenever you want).
Said season would have the following rule variables:

1d4 starting lives (roll for everyone for the entire season)
1d3 shared bank on 1&2 /off 3
variable ddo store

Cosmetic badges (like the Boston Memorial) or other type cosmetic with all sequential earned stats from older seasons displayed somehow?



Also suggest, that once per season, one can mark one toon that is at level cap to be nontransferable, and apply said past life to a toon on another server with an additional past life?

I know this one might be beyond coding, but tossing it out there for consideration.

Edit:
See posts below, no feat or power should ever be gained from the HCL server that is not available elsewhere.

[Silverleafeon]

Would also like to see one more VIP only 90 day season server per year with a different theme such as:

Free Transfer of 2 toons per week from other servers.
Transfer in locked out last month.
Free Transfer out of temporary server when world ends.

If possible, certain quests are marked as already completed or some other form of auto flagging for raids.

Not sure what else to add, but unlimited lives required.
Cosmetics not required.

[slarden]

I like the cosmetics -we don’t need any more grind based power.

would like to see reward for capping all destinies next time and something for hitting 30.

this event is good proof that power granting isn’t the only carrot. Personal challenge, fun and cosmetics are reward enough for many.

[Silverleafeon]

I like the cosmetics -we don’t need any more grind based power.

would like to see reward for capping all destinies next time and something for hitting 30.

this event is good proof that power granting isn’t the only carrot. Personal challenge, fun and cosmetics are reward enough for many.
+1
Cosmetics, challenges, leaderboards and player championships is the overwatch formula and it seems to be working for them.

[Deathlylife]

I understand why op mentions that rewards seem weak with all the death and that more rewards should be available but I strongly disagree with adding more rewards. I will list my reasons below in the order I feel most strongly about.

1. Hardcore: The server is called hardcore for a reason, you shouldn't get a participation trophy as that is just rolling a lvl 1 toon and boom congratulations you are so hardcore you get a prize. Even if at lvl 5 this is too low to actually participate. Myself and I feel many others can roll up a toon and get to lvl 5 within a night or two. That does not seem like I participated in a hardcore event but rather just bought a subscription and just grinded some xp real fast. Participation in hardcore is getting level 20, that seems like the challenge it is meant to be but not too terribly difficult to achieve if playing over-level, lower difficulty, and playing safe.

2. Power: Please do not add any past lives or anything that increases the power level of a character on either hardcore or main server. The first issue is that anyone who happens to not be playing at the time will miss out on this increase in power (college and work can easily prevent someone from playing for a 3 month period even though they play the rest of the year). Any and all increases in power are needed to remain relevant in this game. For all those that say you don't need past lives or power boosts to play the game have already got their words shoved back at them when hardcore came out and they couldn't make it past level 5 without their uber completionist rolling through the content. This game mode shows the danger of incremental power increases and the nasty effects it has on people coming into the game brand new and how they feel when compared to the veterans that stomp content not because of game knowledge but just being over-powered.

3. Inventory Management: Adding more tiers of cosmetics will just fill up my inventory space. Yes some people won't reach level 20 for their participation reward but that's just tough because this is supposed to be tough. Myself and many others working towards 5k favor will get every single tier of reward along the way anyways. People would still feel they are left out because they are not getting the top tier reward or even getting some of the middling tiers. The more rewards added, the more people will feel left out if they can only reach few of the many milestones, while at the same time annoying those that are actually pursuing the top tier rewards with stuff that seemed really easy to get and everybody is running around with.

This is just my personal opinion but how the reward tiers are set now are perfect. Thank you for putting on an event that actually rewards playing the game well and good character building.

[Sho-sa]

Things I like:

1-Having people with whom to play! This has got to be the best thing. We accept that server merges won't be practical for technical reasons, but why can't we group across servers like other games do? There are a lot of great players who fit my playstyle whom I won't see again until who knows when? I don't want to have to play server roulette to have a fun PUG.

2- Active Auction House. I love going through all my stuff and thinking how it might be useful for someone else. Get rid of BtC gear entirely and make it all BtA. Get rid of astral shards and sell plat for Points of you really want. And sell a nicer variety of low level stuff in the store for newbies and alts. Two Auction Houses is counter productive.

3- In line with parts 2 and 3 get rid of the additional XP for 2nd and 3rd lives. The grind is horrendous, but we get the game is built around it now from Turbine's legacy. I bet if you do this there will be more alt play and new players will stay longer which will in turn support parts 1 and 2 above. You can still make money selling things as more players will see multiple past lives as more attainable.

4- Death penalty really enhances gameplay. Bring the XP hit back from the old days. Having a little outside pressure to play well together brings the enjoyment factor back by a lot.

5- Free server transfer after it is over. You guys could have really ticked off the player base if you had charged here.


Things I don't like:

If you are going to change the level limit at which people can play then take a second and change some levels of the quests. Is it really that hard to group all the Threnal sections? Or make Delera's not range from 5-8? Tangleroot from 3-7? You don't have to change anything about the quests, just pencil whip some level numbers.

Premium players excluded. They spend money too and it is not fair they are left back on empty servers.

Lag, lag, lag. So many deaths not player's fault.

Charging for server transfers. Get rid of this and let people migrate as they wish. It won't solve every problem but if a few servers go the way of Wayfinder it will improve the others. The important thing is let us decide what we want to do.


Things which don't concern me:

Rewards are meh which we all know. I don't really care as I am happy for reasons 1 and 2 above. Listen to others for their feedback, but definitely nothing which adds to power creep. Goals are important though and add to gameplay intensity, but personally I'm content with just a number for which to aim.

My personal suggestion? Create cosmetics folders like there already are for hirelings. Free ones with varying available slots given out at certain reward breakpoints, otherwise for sale. Everyone wins.


Final points:

You guys really stumbled on to something here. I didn't think that much of it when first announced, but Fawngate's generosity in setting up the ships inspired me to play. You guys should really, really hook her up with something swank!

This could really be great with some considered thought for the next incarnation.

[Ralmeth]

I understand why op mentions that rewards seem weak with all the death and that more rewards should be available but I strongly disagree with adding more rewards. I will list my reasons below in the order I feel most strongly about.

1. Hardcore: The server is called hardcore for a reason, you shouldn't get a participation trophy as that is just rolling a lvl 1 toon and boom congratulations you are so hardcore you get a prize. Even if at lvl 5 this is too low to actually participate. Myself and I feel many others can roll up a toon and get to lvl 5 within a night or two. That does not seem like I participated in a hardcore event but rather just bought a subscription and just grinded some xp real fast. Participation in hardcore is getting level 20, that seems like the challenge it is meant to be but not too terribly difficult to achieve if playing over-level, lower difficulty, and playing safe.

/Agreed. I am definitely against participation goals. If some kind of intermediate goal was added, at a minimum this should be achieving level 10, or 1,000 favor, and then per my earlier suggestion I think it should be a bound to character cosmetic that you could use to dress up your characte


2. Power: Please do not add any past lives or anything that increases the power level of a character on either hardcore or main server. The first issue is that anyone who happens to not be playing at the time will miss out on this increase in power (college and work can easily prevent someone from playing for a 3 month period even though they play the rest of the year). Any and all increases in power are needed to remain relevant in this game. For all those that say you don't need past lives or power boosts to play the game have already got their words shoved back at them when hardcore came out and they couldn't make it past level 5 without their uber completionist rolling through the content. This game mode shows the danger of incremental power increases and the nasty effects it has on people coming into the game brand new and how they feel when compared to the veterans that stomp content not because of game knowledge but just being over-powered.

If the challenge was made sufficient enough, and you would have gained that past life from playing your normal over-powered character anyways during the same period of time, I don't see why not. Per my earlier suggestion, the trick is to making it difficult to reach level 20. For a future event I would make it so that you cannot open quests on casual, normal or hard. You can only open on elite or reaper at adjusted level, none of this 4 levels over the base quest level, which greatly reduces the challenge. If you're able to make it to level 20, it would be really cool to get a heroic or racial past life of your choice, only available 1/account per event.


3. Inventory Management: Adding more tiers of cosmetics will just fill up my inventory space. Yes some people won't reach level 20 for their participation reward but that's just tough because this is supposed to be tough. Myself and many others working towards 5k favor will get every single tier of reward along the way anyways. People would still feel they are left out because they are not getting the top tier reward or even getting some of the middling tiers. The more rewards added, the more people will feel left out if they can only reach few of the many milestones, while at the same time annoying those that are actually pursuing the top tier rewards with stuff that seemed really easy to get and everybody is running around with.

This is just my personal opinion but how the reward tiers are set now are perfect. Thank you for putting on an event that actually rewards playing the game well and good character building.

If you don't want a cosmetic, what is preventing you from just throwing it out? Or throwing out some other item you're not really using? I don't really see the issue with inventory management, unless you're not able to let stuff go. Also, as for the comment regarding a participation reward, I agree that reaching level 20 by playing it easy, running quests on normal or hard, farming XP in wilderness, etc. However that's why I suggested making hardcore more hardcore by only running on elite or reaper at level.

[Deathlylife]

/Agreed. I am definitely against participation goals. If some kind of intermediate goal was added, at a minimum this should be achieving level 10, or 1,000 favor, and then per my earlier suggestion I think it should be a bound to character cosmetic that you could use to dress up your characte



If the challenge was made sufficient enough, and you would have gained that past life from playing your normal over-powered character anyways during the same period of time, I don't see why not. Per my earlier suggestion, the trick is to making it difficult to reach level 20. For a future event I would make it so that you cannot open quests on casual, normal or hard. You can only open on elite or reaper at adjusted level, none of this 4 levels over the base quest level, which greatly reduces the challenge. If you're able to make it to level 20, it would be really cool to get a heroic or racial past life of your choice, only available 1/account per event.



If you don't want a cosmetic, what is preventing you from just throwing it out? Or throwing out some other item you're not really using? I don't really see the issue with inventory management, unless you're not able to let stuff go. Also, as for the comment regarding a participation reward, I agree that reaching level 20 by playing it easy, running quests on normal or hard, farming XP in wilderness, etc. However that's why I suggested making hardcore more hardcore by only running on elite or reaper at level.

I am okay with the past life as you mention it. Gaining an already existing type of past life for your time on hardcore is perfectly fine by me. I was referencing to the creation of a new type of past life/power boost. I do not want to see a brand new type of boost that will further divide the population between people who missed the event and those that participated/grinded it.

In reference to throwing out cosmetics, I am perfectly fine trashing them. The issue is how they are currently given to the players. I have to talk to mortality multiple times to go through all of the rewards to get the highest tier. If I only want the top tier cosmetic I do not want 20 others I have to receive then destroy every time I tr or make a new character. If this were changed where I could select just the one I wanted to receive I have nothing against it. Also it was the last listed for a reason, it would not be a major issue but a quality of life reason why I did not want more cosmetics.

[Ralmeth]

I am okay with the past life as you mention it. Gaining an already existing type of past life for your time on hardcore is perfectly fine by me. I was referencing to the creation of a new type of past life/power boost. I do not want to see a brand new type of boost that will further divide the population between people who missed the event and those that participated/grinded it.

In reference to throwing out cosmetics, I am perfectly fine trashing them. The issue is how they are currently given to the players. I have to talk to mortality multiple times to go through all of the rewards to get the highest tier. If I only want the top tier cosmetic I do not want 20 others I have to receive then destroy every time I tr or make a new character. If this were changed where I could select just the one I wanted to receive I have nothing against it. Also it was the last listed for a reason, it would not be a major issue but a quality of life reason why I did not want more cosmetics.

Sounds good / like we are on the same page. I totally agree that a new power creep should not be added in any way:) As for the cosmetics, I don’t have any yet so I haven’t been subjected to the UI yet, but leave it to DDO to have a clunky interface. Why am I not surprised?

[Silverleafeon]

Agreeing with others above, edited one of my posts:

Edit:
See posts below, no feat or power should ever be gained from the HCL server that is not available elsewhere.

[Targal]

I want to see a reward as a feat that gives you a SLA(free SP, limited charge per adventure) to cast Bigby's guiding hand.

Some cosmetic rewards or QOL things will be a good reward as well.

[Silverleafeon]

Also, I would like to say that locking out normal, hard and wilderness is one of the rule that I don't like about permadeath random rules.
Please don't add these here.
The leaderboards for favor and reaper xp plus cosmetics handle that just fine.

HCL is the purest form of permadeath in that you die, it is over and everything else is as normal gameplay.
There is no Rez cheating while in the dungeon or limiting playstyle.

[fatherpirate]

high Risk should have a CHANCE at high reward

Suggestion - 1st time through on elite, auto +1 on treasure rolls
1st time through on any reaper - +2 on treasure rolls
1st time through on reaper solo 'your nuts' +3 on treasure rolls

juice up the treasure chests some... easy enough

[Potatofasf]

1st time through on reaper solo 'your nuts' +3 on treasure rolls


Would luv that!

[GeoffWatson]

high Risk should have a CHANCE at high reward

Suggestion - 1st time through on elite, auto +1 on treasure rolls
1st time through on any reaper - +2 on treasure rolls
1st time through on reaper solo 'your nuts' +3 on treasure rolls

juice up the treasure chests some... easy enough

Hope not. You get loot that is usually too high level to use already. Why make it even higher?
If you mean on the "quality of loot" roll, it's percentile, so +3 would be nothing.

[Potatofasf]

Hope not. You get loot that is usually too high level to use already. Why make it even higher?
If you mean on the "quality of loot" roll, it's percentile, so +3 would be nothing.

I'm lying to myself, but I prefer to believe that he was meaning +3 to increase chances to drop named loots while soloing.

Since, while soloing we don't have the +5 chances from "friendly" players to pass loot they already have.

[Silverleafeon]

Edit, I edited one of my earlier post, decided that the temp 90 day HCL might be better than a permanent permadeath server because more population and excitement with seasons than always on. The two would also compete with each other and the main servers.

Sidenote - if the Devs come up with some sort of method to consolidate servers and that meant that I had to give up my airship, I would be willing to consider a trade off of new guild for more server population. An equitable exchange as Spock would say.

[Fivetigers33]

Every time I read this stuff it just makes me mad again. I'm not sure who I'm more disappointed with, the idiot that came up with the idea or the boss that green lighted it.

You (devs) literally have 2 months to fix this. Just do a new reward. It's that simple. Let anyone that has the foot prints keep them, but add something different that CAN be seen by others that anyone reaching 5k favor can claim.

[fatherpirate]

I am not sure of the loot 'math' so when I say +1 ~ +3 I generally mean better loot at a usable lvl
so +1 might be equal to +5% as said, not sure how the lot table work exactly