Should the coming Archmage revamp really focus on SLAs?

[lppmor]

Playing my Pale Master I already have 3 SLAs plus a HUGE amount of spells. The amount of spells is actually insane. It's not by chance that D&D 4th and 5th editions decided to shrink the Wizard spell list.

So, thinking about the coming Archmage revamp, I really don't think more SLAs would be good for a Wizard's life.. yet I understand Archmage currently is based on school SLAs.

So, my question for you guys (and Devs) is:

Can Archmage become something else other than an SLA horder?
Can it be instead a jack-of-all-trades caster? Maybe focusing on metamagic, extra spell points, spell points regeneration, etc?
Or at least grant bonuses to specific schools/spells, but without adding more SLAs..

[Arlandan]

Playing my Pale Master I already have 3 SLAs plus a HUGE amount of spells. The amount of spells is actually insane. It's not by chance that D&D 4th and 5th editions decided to shrink the Wizard spell list.

So, thinking about the coming Archmage revamp, I really don't think more SLAs would be good for a Wizard's life.. yet I understand Archmage currently is based on school SLAs.

So, my question for you guys (and Devs) is:

Can Archmage become something else other than an SLA horder?
Can it be instead a jack-of-all-trades caster? Maybe focusing on metamagic, extra spell points, spell points regeneration, etc?
Or at least grant bonuses to specific schools/spells, but without adding more SLAs..

The main reason I play a wizard is because it has a lot of options in terms of spells it can choose from, etc. May I suggest you play a warlock, my dude?

[Requiro]

Playing my Pale Master I already have 3 SLAs plus a HUGE amount of spells. The amount of spells is actually insane. It's not by chance that D&D 4th and 5th editions decided to shrink the Wizard spell list.

So, thinking about the coming Archmage revamp, I really don't think more SLAs would be good for a Wizard's life.. yet I understand Archmage currently is based on school SLAs.

So, my question for you guys (and Devs) is:

Can Archmage become something else other than an SLA horder?
Can it be instead a jack-of-all-trades caster? Maybe focusing on metamagic, extra spell points, spell points regeneration, etc?
Or at least grant bonuses to specific schools/spells, but without adding more SLAs..

SL-a is part of the Archmage.
But I suggest a different approach in my thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/506844-Some-ideas-to-improve-Archmage?highlight=)

[Itchybeard]

/snip/

So, my question for you guys (and Devs) is:

Can Archmage become something else other than an SLA horder?
Can it be instead a jack-of-all-trades caster? Maybe focusing on metamagic, extra spell points, spell points regeneration, etc?/snip

I find this specific idea very useful for archmage. Perhaps in a core ability or high-tier ability? It doesn't have to be very high in terms of spell points per minute. (Aside from lost souls) drinking yugo pots and concordant opposition for GS is great, but something inherent in the wizard itself seems to be begging for a small mana regen.

[erethizon]

As far as I am concerned, SLA's are the only real spells a caster has. You can empty your spell points way too fast using normal spells and so I only use them few and far between. SLA's are where it is at. The quality of casting class is based on its SLA's in my opinion (along with whatever it can cast a no spell point cost like a warlocks basic blasting attack). I would like to see a ton of SLA's for Archmage myself. The more the better.

[lppmor]

As far as I am concerned, SLA's are the only real spells a caster has. You can empty your spell points way too fast using normal spells and so I only use them few and far between. SLA's are where it is at.

Sure. But that is kind of the problem IMO. We have a **** load of spells available as Wizard, but only use a few in the form of SLAs. SLAs became the bread and butter of DDO, which is good for DPS meters, but bad for all other spells and bad for the feeling of being a Wizard.

For example, instead of getting 3 force SLAs as Evocation Archmage, I'd rather getting an ability that reduces the cost of Magic Missiles, Chain Missiles and Force Missiles by 50%, and also allow free metamagic for these spells. This way we don't need to add MORE versions of existing spells in the form of SLAs, and can instead boost a range of EXISTING spells.

[CSQ]

Unless they really compensated for meta magic costs and spell points, it would be really hard to make Wizard work without SLAs because of the way meta magics work. SLAs help casters economize, and Wizards are one of the classes that need that the most. Unlike Clerics, who are full casters but typically not as thirsty for SP because they wear a bunch of hats and can use the pointy end of a stick decently well, and Sorc/FvS who have huge SP pools, Wizards are most likely to need more SP. Changing this without taking away from Sorc/FvS, though, is the problem. If you give Wizards a tree that gives them Sorc/FvS gimmick of tons of SP, then they're basically just Sorcs with slower spells- the SP pool limitation compensates for Wizards being able to know any spell they could possibly need for a given situation and being able to readily switch them at shrines/taverns.

Basically, Archmage has been, so far, specialized spells from your cores (so 5 SLAs) and then two force SLAs for a total of 7 SLAs. This gives Wizards seven cheap spells, though admittedly five of them are tied to multi selectors that may give you some garbage choices for spells besides the one/two/three you want from your school of choice. This gives Wizards a cheap, but potentially very powerful, arsenal of a few selected spells and then a much more expensive but robust set of spells that they could switch out at shrines. This is somewhat similar to Artificer, but Arti has a very limited spell list, so they don't really compare quite the same way, especially since they're not full casters.

If I'm not entirely off base here, that's really the purpose of Archmage- to give Wizards SLAs. Just like Pale Master is pretty unique, Archmage is something that plays up Wizard's strengths- diverse casting abilities, the ability to make certain spells hit like trucks, etc. If I were to see any change, I would like to let you pick from different schools, so you could pick a bunch of cool spells that you want and build up DCs across different schools as well. Maybe I'm alone on that, though.

[Arlandan]

[QUOTE=lppmor;6245464]Sure. But that is kind of the problem IMO. We have a **** load of spells available as Wizard, but only use a few in the form of SLAs. SLAs became the bread and butter of DDO, which is good for DPS meters, but bad for all other spells and bad for the feeling of being a Wizard.

For example, instead of getting 3 force SLAs as Evocation Archmage, I'd rather getting an ability that reduces the cost of Magic Missiles, Chain Missiles and Force Missiles by 50%, and also allow free metamagic for these spells. This way we don't need to add MORE versions of existing spells in the form of SLAs, and can instead boost a range of EXISTING spells.[/QUOTE

So basically you want them to make your spellbook spells into SLAs? That's what the SLAs do, they take existing spells and they make them cost less and have free metamagics. Just don't memorize them in your spell book to reduce duplication. I disagree with your take on this 100%. How is it bad for all other spells and bad for the "feeling of being a wizard?" Yeah, this doesn't make any sense at all.

[Kutalp]

What I would care for at Archmage revamp.

Displacement, Clouds, Lightning spells; somehow arcane self healing as SLAs. Also a familiar of sort.




https://wp-media.patheos.com/blogs/sites/656/2016/10/Bombadil010607a-300x277.jpg
Some funny dance of avoidance mechanics ! :rolleyes:

[Pyed-Pyper]

What I would care for at Archmage revamp.

Displacement, Clouds, Lightning spells; somehow arcane self healing as SLAs. Also a familiar of sort.




https://wp-media.patheos.com/blogs/sites/656/2016/10/Bombadil010607a-300x277.jpg
Some funny dance of avoidance mechanics ! :rolleyes:

Tom always struck me as more of a druid, but whatever.

[Pyed-Pyper]

What would really be crazy? If all the spells worked. As in, actually functioned in the game. As in, actually being useful in the game.

What if, and I know this is just silly, a player looked at the available list of spells and had trouble deciding which to use because they were all so good?

--

Nah, forget about it. Lets look forward to the next divine martial arcane class for sale, a repeating crossbow wielding steam-powered robot. The twist? Instead of bolts, it shoots small metallic projectiles that have self-contained propellant.

[Kutalp]

Sort of out of D&D and more in to Tolkien fantasy but yeah sounds like a semi Arcane/semi Nature caster. Same for Radagast and some of those names there. :D

( I sense a hidden Bardic iconism there with their specialities,character and roles at the realm )

About avoidance mechanics and spells and schools. I agree with you...It is a long story.

[droid327]

AM is the purest caster tree for Wizards, so it should focus on what pure casters need: DC, spellpower, spell crit, and SLAs. Of those, I think crit and SLAs are the most important. DC and Spellpower are already widely available, and if AM just became Mini Magister, I think it'd be boring and a missed opportunity. Spell crit could be a huge multiplicative channel for Wiz DPS output - something to match up with Sorc Savant trees - and I think it fits thematically that an Archmage's spells would crit more often.

SLAs exist because pure casters need an "auto attack" equivalent - something that can be spammed in rotation without being so SP heavy that you cant sustain it through an entire quest, especially since metas are de facto required. Melee caster hybrids (ie EKs) have an actual meaningful attack they can use, but a pure caster Archmage would need something to use...so absolutely I think AM should be rich in SLAs for your selected schools. They just need to be better ones more useful in the game as it is today, comparable to other SLA type options for other classes.

[Emerge2012]

AM is the purest caster tree for Wizards, so it should focus on what pure casters need: DC, spellpower, spell crit, and SLAs. Of those, I think crit and SLAs are the most important. DC and Spellpower are already widely available, and if AM just became Mini Magister, I think it'd be boring and a missed opportunity. Spell crit could be a huge multiplicative channel for Wiz DPS output - something to match up with Sorc Savant trees - and I think it fits thematically that an Archmage's spells would crit more often.

SLAs exist because pure casters need an "auto attack" equivalent - something that can be spammed in rotation without being so SP heavy that you cant sustain it through an entire quest, especially since metas are de facto required. Melee caster hybrids (ie EKs) have an actual meaningful attack they can use, but a pure caster Archmage would need something to use...so absolutely I think AM should be rich in SLAs for your selected schools. They just need to be better ones more useful in the game as it is today, comparable to other SLA type options for other classes.
Exactly this. I'd only add that perhaps the tree needs significantly stronger SLA's somewhere seeing as how much of what is currently available for each school is just fluff.

[Zuldar]

Unless they really compensated for meta magic costs and spell points

Maybe have metamagic add a cooldown to the spell with stronger metamagics adding a longer cooldown. Than enhancements/items could reduce how much time any metamagic adds to the cooldown. Wizards having more spell slots could simply cast different spells in the meantime which they could afford since spells would be cheaper.

[jskinner937]

Playing my Pale Master I already have 3 SLAs plus a HUGE amount of spells. The amount of spells is actually insane. It's not by chance that D&D 4th and 5th editions decided to shrink the Wizard spell list.

So, thinking about the coming Archmage revamp, I really don't think more SLAs would be good for a Wizard's life.. yet I understand Archmage currently is based on school SLAs.

So, my question for you guys (and Devs) is:

Can Archmage become something else other than an SLA horder?
Can it be instead a jack-of-all-trades caster? Maybe focusing on metamagic, extra spell points, spell points regeneration, etc?
Or at least grant bonuses to specific schools/spells, but without adding more SLAs..

So because your PM has too many SLAs you want other wizards to not have any? There are many ppl that play wizard without PM tree and vice versa. Archangel should be chock full of SLAs among other things.

[Hydian]

I'd like to see the tree changed so that at core 1 you choose a school. The entire tree should key off of this choice, be it extra boosts to that school (say 1/2/3 spell pen with an extra 1 spell pen at 3 for spells of your school) or selector abilities that are school specific (maybe a summon at T5 that boosts spell casting). The capstone should have some sort of school specific boost or boosts in it, be it spell point reductions, free quickening, extra spell pen, bonus damage, or what have you (different and appropriate for each school). You don't want to cripple the other schools, but boost the chosen school.

Maybe also have spells cost 2% less per core ability that you have (at least spells in your school).

[lppmor]

I'd like to see the tree changed so that at core 1 you choose a school. The entire tree should key off of this choice, be it extra boosts to that school (say 1/2/3 spell pen with an extra 1 spell pen at 3 for spells of your school) or selector abilities that are school specific (maybe a summon at T5 that boosts spell casting). The capstone should have some sort of school specific boost or boosts in it, be it spell point reductions, free quickening, extra spell pen, bonus damage, or what have you (different and appropriate for each school). You don't want to cripple the other schools, but boost the chosen school.

Maybe also have spells cost 2% less per core ability that you have (at least spells in your school).

That's more or less my view.

In current state, you choose to be an Evoker and as result you are obligated to like Force spells through the SLA missiles. That's why I'm against more SLAs. I want to specialize in Evocation but I want the freedom to choose my preferend Evocation spells. Reducing the costs of all spells of the chosen school would be great.

Same with Enchantment school. If I choose to be an Enchanter, instead of just gaining SLA Hypnotism and SLA Dance Sphere, I'd rather have all my enchants to last longer, cost less, and even having extra effects.

Necromancy.. if I instakill something, I could drain some spell points or health. And so on..

SLAs are pretty shallow IMO.

[Kutalp]

Archmage, allright...


- Archmage would certainly need a strong passive, stacking , ability that can not be dispelled to provide or at least to boost avoidance mechanics blurry/ghostly/dodge even good old Mirror image spell !

- Passive, triggered and undispellable , meaningfull amount of % Temporary hitpoints that can renew itself without casting but may be toggling on (at least). There can be extra % hp and % sp and % to fortitude saves at T5 and Core or after lvl 12+ enhancements. The combination would bring avoidance and temproray hitpoints and extra %; instead of imitating the Divine healing or Negative healing.


- By means of untyped magical effects, undispellible, Better MRR(%) but not PRR, Spell resistance (%)and physical dodge chance(%) and +1 reflex save for every T and core line (around +10 total reflex save at cap at lvl 20 character) , only while wearing robes.


- Dispellible SLAs such as improved Haste like effect and improved Stoneskin like effect at lvl 8+ and 12+ levels.


- No cost Expand, Extend, Quicken at T5 and at lvl 12+(?)


- Undispellible, Immunity to level drain at lvl 8 Archmage and % resist vs Negative spells and non harmfull ability score gimping spells, which improves through Archmage enhancements and Wizard levels.


- Undispellible, Passive physical and magical reflection effect which improves through wizard levels and enhancement tree with certain amount of %. Reflects any type of damage including untyped damage to the opponent with % chance as Bane damage. Does not avoid the damage taken. ( Take that Beholders and Champions! ) Requires Staves and Archmage 9+


- Also as I may be repeating myself, Displacement, Glitterdust, Clouds, Lightning like no aim SLAs that has balanced offensive and defensive fast paced mechanics ,aoe and no or at least very low cost . Shadow walk/Dimension door/Teleport like SLA. Invisiblity like SLA. These can be dispellible.


- Spell casting DC calculated over Character level. Requires 12+ Archmage and Staves.


- After level 9+ Archmage. An unkillable and useful Familiar that can renew sp non stop , with % chance and % amount of total SP pool. Some boost to Spell penetration with % chance which improves through wizard level. This is much better than bursting spell points total and loading Maximize, Empower and anytihng that turns a Wizard in to a wannabe Sorcerer.

Familair may come earlier with smaller chances of spell penetration. SP renewal shall be after lvl 9+ Archmage and shall improve with % after that level. To keep it unique for Archmage.


- Meaningfull boost to good old summons after level 8+ Archmage ( I love Fiendish bat for all levels ) by means of meat shielding and distracting flying or running around the place , at least.


- A meaningful boost to wand and scroll use with extra DC and non skill based UMD chances but also faster cooldowns for recasting through scrolls for Archmage after level 8+


- Level 8+ Archmage Your Staff deals Untyped damage instead of its base damage. The amount of damage is not effected. No extra to hit chances.


- Powerfull Spell combination SLAs that can auto cast groups of spells instant by increasing SLA cost with a meaningful amount. This can be powerfull but also dangerous (and funny).

% chance SLA with drag and trigger similar to weapon set at hot bar. Funny side effects like self jump and feather fall or pop up a grease spell and low level summon ( dispells your higher level summon ) and some other ridiclous results; instead of casting the original Spell combination set, may pop up to make everyone smile. After lvl 12+ Archmage and requires Staves.


- Archmage 8+ Beholders (Aberrations) as natural enemy. Extra to hit and bane damage with staves and spell dc and spell pen against Beholders (Aberrations).


- My humble opinon. :)


https://i0.wp.com/troypress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Fizban-the-Wizard-truncated.png?resize=634%2C372

[FuzzyDuck81]

If SLAs providing even more things to hotbar is a problem, maybe a significant reduction in the SP cost (including if metamagics are applied) for spells from the chosen school could be a possibility? Since it's possible to have a school-specialised archmage without taking any spell focus feats (i tend towards this approach on a nuker type since those spells aren't as DC critical), maybe if you have the focus feat for the school the archmage enhancement could increase the SP discount, encouraging people to spend the feats to specialise.

[Tlorrd]

Archmage, allright...


- Archmage would certainly need a strong passive, stacking , ability that can not be dispelled to provide or at least to boost avoidance mechanics blurry/ghostly/dodge even good old Mirror image spell !

- Passive, triggered and undispellable , meaningfull amount of % Temporary hitpoints that can renew itself without casting but may be toggling on (at least). There can be extra % hp and % sp and % to fortitude saves at T5 and Core or after lvl 12+ enhancements. The combination would bring avoidance and temproray hitpoints and extra %; instead of imitating the Divine healing or Negative healing.


- By means of untyped magical effects, undispellible, Better MRR(%) but not PRR, Spell resistance (%)and physical dodge chance(%) and +1 reflex save for every T and core line (around +10 total reflex save at cap at lvl 20 character) , only while wearing robes.


- Dispellible SLAs such as improved Haste like effect and improved Stoneskin like effect at lvl 8+ and 12+ levels.


- No cost Expand, Extend, Quicken at T5 and at lvl 12+(?)


- Undispellible, Immunity to level drain at lvl 8 Archmage and % resist vs Negative spells and non harmfull ability score gimping spells, which improves through Archmage enhancements and Wizard levels.


- Undispellible, Passive physical and magical reflection effect which improves through wizard levels and enhancement tree with certain amount of %. Reflects any type of damage including untyped damage to the opponent with % chance as Bane damage. Does not avoid the damage taken. ( Take that Beholders and Champions! ) Requires Staves and Archmage 9+


- Also as I may be repeating myself, Displacement, Glitterdust, Clouds, Lightning like no aim SLAs that has balanced offensive and defensive fast paced mechanics ,aoe and no or at least very low cost . Shadow walk/Dimension door/Teleport like SLA. Invisiblity like SLA. These can be dispellible.


- Spell casting DC calculated over Character level. Requires 12+ Archmage and Staves.


- After level 9+ Archmage. An unkillable and useful Familiar that can renew sp non stop , with % chance and % amount of total SP pool. Some boost to Spell penetration with % chance which improves through wizard level. This is much better than bursting spell points total and loading Maximize, Empower and anytihng that turns a Wizard in to a wannabe Sorcerer.

Familair may come earlier with smaller chances of spell penetration. SP renewal shall be after lvl 9+ Archmage and shall improve with % after that level. To keep it unique for Archmage.


- Meaningfull boost to good old summons after level 8+ Archmage ( I love Fiendish bat for all levels ) by means of meat shielding and distracting flying or running around the place , at least.


- A meaningful boost to wand and scroll use with extra DC and non skill based UMD chances but also faster cooldowns for recasting through scrolls for Archmage after level 8+


- Level 8+ Archmage Your Staff deals Untyped damage instead of its base damage. The amount of damage is not effected. No extra to hit chances.


- Powerfull Spell combination SLAs that can auto cast groups of spells instant by increasing SLA cost with a meaningful amount. This can be powerfull but also dangerous (and funny).

% chance SLA with drag and trigger similar to weapon set at hot bar. Funny side effects like self jump and feather fall or pop up a grease spell and low level summon ( dispells your higher level summon ) and some other ridiclous results; instead of casting the original Spell combination set, may pop up to make everyone smile. After lvl 12+ Archmage and requires Staves.


- Archmage 8+ Beholders (Aberrations) as natural enemy. Extra to hit and bane damage with staves and spell dc and spell pen against Beholders (Aberrations).


- My humble opinon. :)


https://i0.wp.com/troypress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Fizban-the-Wizard-truncated.png?resize=634%2C372

Did you follow this with a .... MUHAHAHA ... GIVE ME GOD MODE!! :rolleyes:

[Cantor]

AM is the purest caster tree for Wizards, so it should focus on what pure casters need: DC, spellpower, spell crit, and SLAs. Of those, I think crit and SLAs are the most important. DC and Spellpower are already widely available, and if AM just became Mini Magister, I think it'd be boring and a missed opportunity. Spell crit could be a huge multiplicative channel for Wiz DPS output - something to match up with Sorc Savant trees - and I think it fits thematically that an Archmage's spells would crit more often.

SLAs exist because pure casters need an "auto attack" equivalent - something that can be spammed in rotation without being so SP heavy that you cant sustain it through an entire quest, especially since metas are de facto required. Melee caster hybrids (ie EKs) have an actual meaningful attack they can use, but a pure caster Archmage would need something to use...so absolutely I think AM should be rich in SLAs for your selected schools. They just need to be better ones more useful in the game as it is today, comparable to other SLA type options for other classes.

While I agree this is what wizards are lacking in DDO. It is also the most homogenizing least archmage themed thing to do.

[Kutalp]

Did you follow this with a .... MUHAHAHA ... GIVE ME GOD MODE!! :rolleyes:





Who would, seriously , think that is Overpowered compared to Palemaster, Eldricht knight or infamous Enhancement tree splash pver caster class; Vistani/Inquisitive/Harper caster builds ? Those trees has all of the listed and more top of that. ( Oops I forgot Warlock. Now does sorcere beat that or what ? )


Why not turn Archmage tree a playable one same as those trees ? I have been playing wizards for a long time aswell as rogue and fighter splashes. There is no beast like Paletrapper/Vistani or Eldricht/Inquisitve etc caster combos. Wolf bulds, Warlock builds. These are allready known and used all over the place to Tr runs etc as cookie cutter builds.

Spamming magic missiles when Wizard meants to be much deeper than that with plenty of spell slots, choices and Metamagic feats and have to stick to gimped squishy builds doesnt cut it for long time players. Anyone else then trying the originally Non wizard Shiradi destiny builds to spam Missiles/FVS to regen SP...Just hillarious... Experienced players allmost immediately get back to Palemaster or Eldricht knight or Warlock, Inquisitve, Vistani... over and over again.



For Archmage Wizard revamp Let me summarise what was suggested:

Giving physical and magical avoidance to Archmage, extra hitpoints and temprorary hitpoints, a familiar, better DC for casting. Just a reminder pure wizards will not wear armor nor multiclass splash. The only way to ensure that is dodge and ghostly like ablities and reflex saves with robes. Palemaster allready has that. Eldricht knight is the armored knight with beastly power cleaves and fighter bab stance with extra crit chance/threat and multi dcs...(Yeah but Archmage would be godly if tree becomes playable sigh...)

Immunity to level drain at T5-Vistani has that with 22 AP at T4/Level four character... Why shouldnt a hardcore caster have ( Becasue wizards are meant to be Sadomaschoist over Beholders erasing all buffs and sucking wizard levels to 0 ? ) ?

Displacement (Even Clerics got that. Anyone familiar with Cleric domains Level drain immunity and Strength stat renewed in 6 seconds after the cleric gets Strength stat damage. Heard these ?), Glitterdust, Conjuration clouds, Shadowwalk (Elf racial tree has it), Mass Teleport (Human racial tree has teleport), Haste and Stoneskin (tons of items/divine casters, racial trees why shouldnt Wizard ?) as SLA. They are originally Wizard spells. Reflecting % amount of damage back to npc after wizard gets the damage instead of Force cleaves of Eldricht or Light cleaves of KOTC paladin. Never heard ? ( Please compare this to Eldricht and Palemaster even if not other uber enhancement trees. ) This is a passive defensive, all on avoidance caster with better DCs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPLEFG5nHK4

Meanwhile we can see hordes of Ranged (Crosbow builds!) warriors with deep caster splashes to take advantage of Magical avoidance and Ranged top of non avoidable Magical cleaves /Permanent Displacement/insane resistance vs Elemental attacks. Free Fighter BAB Eldricht/Warlock/Inquisitve etc is not overpowered but a playable Archmage tree is overpowered...Really :P ?


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGC7vp5ECouNT5EzgADZzedk91bMb1X PFUJue9FypZROFd-HeT
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/507134-Theory-Crafters-Pure-Wizard-Inquisitive

Casters turning in to musclemen. Still, Ranged classes and no SP items and abilites beat casters over casting ( The parody )

How come those are not overpowered when Wizard becomes gets own class spell from list as sla and add some avoidance and pet over it ? ( Check this out there was no %30 striding items or displacement clickies, Ability enhancements were caster specific buffs and none of OP gadgets were out. Only wizards and similar classes were able to cast certain spells to buff themselves and the party. In time the reason to be a caster turned out meaningless; other than several DPS burst spells and classes. Now, the best someone get pull off a Wizard is Necro instant kill or Enchantment/If it succeeds. Really ? In return revamps started to turn Wizards in to wariors lol !)


Please compare this to Eldricht knight entire tree, Pale master entire tree, Vistani, Falconry, Inquisitve entire trees. Harper Kta, Warlock, Paladin Kotc. Cleric domains... Rogue/Fighter-Artificer-Paladin etc splashed deep in to Wizard or Sorcerer for the reasons listed above...Seriously, suggested things for Wizard Archmage is not Overpowered. Nothing Godly about it.

Anyhow I believe it's a joke. I will give you that. So lets laugh alltogether. Ha ha he ha !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC_XT-HdBvE

http://www.comicbookfx.com/images/171-3.jpg
:cool:

[janave]

In my vision an Archmage should be perfectly fine with 0% Palemaster in it. This has been false in the times ive played DDO. Getting points in PM should be extremely optional.

TLDR;
Mages in DDO != Mages in D&D


There are too many forced synergies, where a "pure" build is strictly better off taking a preset line of enhancements for "best builds". This is not helpful imo, and ways should be open for builds that are comparable even side by side in effectiveness in some areas, while diverse enough to play differently. Mages are a tough spot for DDO as not all spell schools and specializations are equally supported in content (which would be their primary way to differentiate one from another).

An Abjurer Wizard is strictly inferior to Necromancy and Evocation, on R10s even Evokers fall behind quite a bit and instant kill becomes supremely more useful than anything else, eliminating tactical coop play where generalist Mages ideally would really shine using a wide selection of cc, debuffs, aoe dots etc....


Imo Palemaster spec ruined the Wizard class in that it forced one specific choice on the players. PM also grants too many enhancements that is 180° against original design of the class, "the squishy low hp, low defense character with limited resources." The reason a party carries a Wizard is to "solve" those annoying challenges and often binary or heavily unbalanced situations, think fireshield spell, or water walk, feather fall, etc... in contrast DDO carries them to swarmspam elemental magic and instant death.


- Original design of the class is being offset by speccing into Palemaster ( the only real choice for too long)
- Original design offset by using Warforged ( lesser choice than Palemaster but still much superior to generic fleshy mages )
- Buffs are not very useful past the mid levels or so.
- Spell cooldowns are not balanced against content usefulness.
- Spell schools are not all useful in content. Some are not useful at all at any given level because there are supported choices that grant the same result strictly better.
- New spells are rarely added to the game
- There are no ways to increase memorization slots for spell ( even tho there are many ways to increase spell pool, which in itself is very unbalanced)
- Epic levels make the spellbook much less relevant, and EDestinies take over, which are once again balanced for the few specific working and supported spellschools.
- Feats in DDO often mean much more or much less compared to the source (Wizard gets free feats allowing "some room" also mostly predefined by usefulness in content)



Wheew thats more than the 1 line I was about to drop in :P

[capsela]

TLDR;
Mages in DDO != Mages in D&D




DnD wizards are OP and awesome. DDO wizards are just another class. I have no confidence that the AM pass will do anything to raise wizards up, because like some have noted. Spells are fundamentally old, un-updated from a decade ago, and flawed. The recent spell pass didn't address many of the problem areas. Too many spells are worthless. Sorcs aren't punished by lack of spells because they're aren't many good spells. It's a hobson's choice. The best buffs are surpassed by feats and clickies. Metamagic is too expensive and doesn't scale. Fixing these problems is beyond the ken and desire of the developers.

I predict they will leave the AM tree the same, buff arcane blast, lower the sp cost a tiny bit and call it a day.

[Indubitably]

I offered my own suggestion earlier as well:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/508237-Archmage-Tree-Suggestion-Give-them-cool-ideas!


I would like to see a REDUCTION in total amount of SLAs, and make the remaining ones MUCH more worthwhile AS SLAS. Spells that actually get used a lot and often are paired with meta magics.
Spells that never use a meta magic, or worse are cast once as buffs, are terrible SLA choices.

I would much rather see AM give bonuses to casting ability of chosen school than more SLAs of spells you'd normally ignore.
Example... Lower Cooldown, casting cost, casting speed of primary and (to a lesser extent) secondary tree. Maybe some universal bonuses to (even weaker still).
This still benefits CC and utility trees just as much as damaging trees. And improves wizards main ability (their spellbook!)

[BigErkyKid]

As far as I am concerned, SLA's are the only real spells a caster has. You can empty your spell points way too fast using normal spells and so I only use them few and far between. SLA's are where it is at. The quality of casting class is based on its SLA's in my opinion (along with whatever it can cast a no spell point cost like a warlocks basic blasting attack). I would like to see a ton of SLA's for Archmage myself. The more the better.

I'd say this is outdated. On a sorc, you no longer base your DPS on SLAs by level 10 (around that, Id'd say). Cost effective spells are those in the higher tiers, not the lower ones (which are typically where SLAs are at).

I am not sure a wizard can compete in the DPS department, at least in epics, without resorting to insta kills. Caster levels and the SP pool seem to favor sorc too heavily, although I guess it would be nice to ahve a real comparison. Truth is magic DPS is super easy to compute and compare.

IMHO the problem of wizard is that part of its inherent appeal is lost when so few spells actually matter, and when that selection is even smaller when yuo consider the spells you can actually boost to usefulness given the limited gear slots and feats, even among the viable ones.

I do not think they will revamp magic, so I expect some more selective boost.

[BigErkyKid]

TLDR;
Mages in DDO != Mages in D&D


It is not that hard, though, to balance a bit better. Cost effectiveness should be the metric by which spells are balanced. Right now it is a no brainer to use higher level spells, and completely ignore the lower ones.

Why would you use a highthened fear (20+25=45 spell points)vs a mass hold at 50 spell points? In the DnD I played, this would be due to daily spell cast limitations. However, this has transalted very poorly in DDO because the relative cost of spells is out of wack, as I showed you in the example.

Other examples: why would anyone cast a fireball vs DB fireball? DBfireball does far more damage, while costing only 10 more SP in its base.
10d6+30 (60.5) VS 20d6+140 (210). The DPS per SP cost is: DBfireball 210/25=8.4 and fireball 60.5/15=4 so it is DOUBLE the cost effectiveness.

And not even getting to the fact that we should be measuring DPS per unit of time too.

So this is the fundamental problem of spells and I don't see it changing any time soon.

[Bjond]

IMHO, make it less awkward to maintain and use the Master of Knowledge stacks; eg. change Arcane Blast to Arcane Shower. Similar total damage, but via many smaller hits -- each of which can proc shiradi and MoK. So, small change, big update to damage and much easier MoK stacking.

Change Arcane Bolt to Arcane Spray (or Beam): directional wide blast-like beam/spray made of many little missiles, each of which keeps on going and hits everything in it's path. Not a cone. More like IPS for a swarm of arcane missiles -- might even be able to reuse IPS coding to achieve the effect). Like the suggested Blast change, let the update to damage be via extra shiradi and MoK proc'ing rather than via actual missile damage.

Add a very long cool-down (10~15m? once-per-instance?) modifier-style toggle that auto-repeats the next spell many times (3? 5? 7?) with zero intervening GCD and only the cost of a single use. PnP Wizards mostly do nothing but carry gear and whine a lot about how smart they are .. until it's time for that ONE BIG SPELL, which of course, you'll never hear the end of how the wizard saved the entire group. So, uh, give 'em that one big spell.

And, just because it's ridiculously fun, give them a leap, ideally with a teleport style animation rather than jetting through the air or maybe surfing on a spume of arcane light. Ultimately the same movement effect as any leap, just teleport-style. A wizard should never bother to use anything as mundane as feet or (ugh!) muscles to move.

[janave]

I'd say this is outdated. On a sorc, you no longer base your DPS on SLAs by level 10 (around that, Id'd say). Cost effective spells are those in the higher tiers, not the lower ones (which are typically where SLAs are at)..

Yup, later on my Air savant I only bother using heroic SLAs to build up the vulnerability stacks a little cheaper, and because there is little else worth taking while getting the capstone. That 3x3 APs otherwise id probably spend elsewhere. Most of the Sorcerer trees are just as bad if not worse than AM, aside the cores that are mostly fine.

Efficient Metamagic is overrated for the 2ap per stack, and is cluttering up the casting trees quite a bit.

[Vulkoorex]

How about adding unique spells to AM core?

Like...
Iron skin (an upgrade to Stone Skin).
Immune to Elements (absolute no damage from elements for 60 sec...cooldown 3 min?).
Etheral (become like a ghost and immune to physical damage and can pass through mobs ... 20 sec ... cooldown 1min?).

Something versatile instead of just DPS.

[Indubitably]

- each of which can proc shiradi and MoK.
...
let the update to damage be via extra shiradi and MoK proc'ing


Forget Shiradi, just let it go...
It's a primal tree that gives ranged power, doesnt give caster levels, and doesn't scale with spell power (procs scale off ranged power).

Despite SSG leaving spells in there as a source of procs, they CLEARLY don't want casters using Shiradi (sadly.... I regret this choice of theirs).

I also don't want the majourity of AM's power to be reliant on a specific ED tree that excludes the use of magister's DCs, or MoK for that matter (although, like other SLAs, it makes sense if their epic scaling is reliant on a feat).


I do however like the idea of changing the SLAs to more interesting forms of attack. namely change the bolt to a spray would be cool, it's not a T1 SLA after all.

[janave]

Forget Shiradi, just let it go...
It's a primal tree that gives ranged power, doesnt give caster levels, and doesn't scale with spell power (procs scale off ranged power).

Despite SSG leaving spells in there as a source of procs, they CLEARLY don't want casters using Shiradi (sadly.... I regret this choice of theirs).

I also don't want the majourity of AM's power to be reliant on a specific ED tree that excludes the use of magister's DCs, or MoK for that matter (although, like other SLAs, it makes sense if their epic scaling is reliant on a feat).


I do however like the idea of changing the SLAs to more interesting forms of attack. namely change the bolt to a spray would be cool, it's not a T1 SLA after all.

Shiradi could be reimplemented as the base of a heroic Wild Mage tree. Shiradi champion then becoming the classic Bow Ranger tree as probably intended, blending with a ranged only FotW mix; FotW then can be freed from the ranged association, and make it as a primarily THF melee focused ED.

[HuneyMunster]

At least for Wizards Archmage gives an alternative to Pale Master. What could have happened was that Pale Master was split into four trees; Zombie, Vampire, Wraith and Lich. This is basically what happened to Sorcerer with Fire, Cold, Air and Acid Savant being slit into four trees and only left with Eldritch Knight as an alternative.


Shiradi could be reimplemented as the base of a heroic Wild Mage tree. Shiradi champion then becoming the classic Bow Ranger tree as probably intended, blending with a ranged only FotW mix; FotW then can be freed from the ranged association, and make it as a primarily THF melee focused ED.

Wild Mage should be Sorcerer tree as all wild mages were mostly sorcerers and Delina being the most notable example. Or at least it could be a Charisma based Universal Tree. Currently there is just Daggers, Ranged Xbow, Wis based Falconry and Int based melee/semi-caster tree.

[FuzzyDuck81]

. Or at least it could be a Charisma based Universal Tree. Currently there is just Daggers, Ranged Xbow, Wis based Falconry and Int based melee/semi-caster tree.

Ooo now this I could get behind.. I'm rather liking the idea of a wild magic based paladin as an alternative eldritch knight :)

[SpartanKiller13]

It is not that hard, though, to balance a bit better. Cost effectiveness should be the metric by which spells are balanced. Right now it is a no brainer to use higher level spells, and completely ignore the lower ones.

Why would you use a heightened fear (20+25=45 spell points)vs a mass hold at 50 spell points? In the DnD I played, this would be due to daily spell cast limitations. However, this has translated very poorly in DDO because the relative cost of spells is out of wack, as I showed you in the example.

Why would I use Heightened Hold Monster instead of Mass Hold Monster? They're basically the same cost and one's AoE. I like HM for Reapers in particular, but if I can't use it un-Heightened I'll use MHM lol.

In theory you should consider using lower-level spells because they offer utility or additional benefits (like Evard's for Warlocks which offers damage & lockdown in an AoEoT effect). In reality which 9th level spells do you like most?

[Kutalp]

Archmage can only be saved with no spell point wasting ranged attacks, quality avoidance and fast movement speed. Anything else would only put it to flavor build category for this era of the game.


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRYYKMrY44-_OhcZ-qSwsf38EyYOVSjOdMEMwaABADNCJ6AUoe0

[Merfyn]

Not that I'm qualified to opine authoritatively, but what the hey...

I was thinking along the same lines as these -

- No cost Expand, Extend, Quicken at T5 and at lvl 12+(?)

If SLAs providing even more things to hotbar is a problem, maybe a significant reduction in the SP cost (including if metamagics are applied) for spells from the chosen school could be a possibility? Since it's possible to have a school-specialised archmage without taking any spell focus feats (i tend towards this approach on a nuker type since those spells aren't as DC critical), maybe if you have the focus feat for the school the archmage enhancement could increase the SP discount, encouraging people to spend the feats to specialise.

though IMO "no cost" Metamagics are a REALLY bad idea unless they're near the top of the tree, & even then it risks being very unbalanced. The only way I could see it working would be to make them far enough up that more than a splash of another class would kill the possibility; don't want to make it out-'spellsword' the actual EK's.

That said, maybe making the tippy-top of the tree allow several Metamagic discounts and/or plus other discounts and/or spell point regen. Archmages are supposed to be devoting themselves to study & what not, so it ought to be worth something...

[SerPounce]

I'm kind of luke warm about SLAs in general. They seem like a band-aid for the semi-broken metamagic system. DoTs are a better way of dealing with spellpoint conservation during boss DPS.

Instead of a single archmage tree with a variant for each spell school including pointless ones like abjuration and thematically redundant ones like necromancy I'd rather have two proper trees. One with an evocation/conjuration focus and another with an enchantment/illusion focus (but with a cool name for each). Those are the wizard archetypes that are not otherwise covered, interesting, and grounded in effective spells. Have the evocation/conjuration school have some big buffs to DPS metamagic (like increasing spellpower scalling for spell damage) for some serious DPS, but don't give them the immunity-breaking that sorcs have so they still have to use different elements. Give the enchantment/illusion some CC immunity breaking and some and unique boss debuffs.

[NemesisAlien]

I think you all missing something, this is a archmage for crying out loud, why only metamagics discount? Archmage suppose to be expert in all ranges of spells, so metas 0 cost, the spell itself discount in sp. why? Because archmage suppose to be the EXPERT. Also throw in some spells from other classes, because that is the definition of an archmage. If a wizard is a degree holder, archmage is a PHD holder.

Or archmage aura, regenerate sp.

Or archmage core 5, you get some other spells, example tentacles, confusion, etc.

Or archmage tier or core 1 to 5 you get free metamagic feats and spell focus.

Actually by core 5 they suppose to auto get whichever spell they missing, since they suppose to know everything.

[Kutalp]

Excuse me I have spoken the truth and spoken straightforward. First of all for along time I wished for balancing revamp for old school classes. I have seen nice changes brought to live game by developers.

But, there is also comparsions to me made.

I can assure you no one will ever play any other class or tree which not centered around solid good offense and defense mechanics (not AC but dodge, ghoslty etc) and ranged (I do not mean arrows and bolts only) attacks (good sustained damage and worthy critical chances) without spellpoints or cooldowns anymore.

I have been playing with all classes and multiclasses since 2012 (forum acc only 2016). Yes it was fun to enjoy different classes and builds but there is no real reason to play gimped builds (and there re players who simply dont care about TRs over races and classes and repeatitons anymore).

If Casters somehow can be 'virtual' magic users with the same mechanics of Inquisitive, Mechanic, Artificier, Vistani, Warlock. (Eldricht and Palemaster are comparable but not same level) No one will to touch them after comparing/testing classes and builds a couple of weeks/months if the said players are only fresh meat at DDO.

If some one likes running quests, being self sufficent but also a good team player, they will ask themselves ' Why should I play with less usefull and painfull classes or enhancement tree combinations instead of better one? '


My humble suggestion as an humble player, if revamped versions of old scholl classes will not compete with the said trees above, please keep the valuble time and resources for revamping other areas of the game.


I am speaking the truth and embracing the rotten tomatoes. :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1jwBCGMCps

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOgz1tkhDjxL1IoMZEENNMENou1Zrfe mOb7npsLnCSCCZrQYmi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FswZ6MAHaLc