How to Stop Driving People Away from the Game (No Politics Version)

[Arkat]

This post is not mine. It came from a thread that was locked because of some political language in the original post.

I thought the post was basically pretty good so I am re-posting it here with some spelling and grammatical mistake fixes. I have also removed the offending political language and slightly altered the end of the post to reflect a conclusion that made sense in light of the removal of the political language.

To be clear, I do not agree with *all* of the points made, but I felt the post was worthy of a discussion.



With the new success of the hardcore server it’s hard not to recognize an influx of players and player activity. We can all agree that a lot of the 'charm' that we all first became enamored with has returned.

With that, we are starting to see a rise of "how tos" and “instructionals.” Serious minded players feel that with the stakes being higher the chances also increase of them ending up in a group with someone who maybe doesn't play or approach the game in the same way.

People are free to have their own approach to the game. The problem arises when boundaries are crossed, others are not respected, and others are made to feel like the 'charm' of the game is gone and they would rather not deal with the aggravation of dealing with pushy players. What ends up happening then is that many of the players who also were more moderate and flexible don't want to be ostracized and then end up also avoiding those players who they otherwise might enjoy playing with. Who we are left with are the pushy players and maybe half of the moderate players while the other half the player population leave the game because its 'not for them'. And this is because pushy players need to learn about respect. Frankly, they need to learn that although they may have analyzed the game to death, there is a lot they need to learn about respecting other people's space. That means allowing people to play the game their way and not imposing their approach to the game on other people.

Unfortunately, this has already resulted in the player population dropping by thousands of what it would otherwise be. And yes, I am 100% serious. I am one of the founding players and I have witnessed the evolution (of the game and the game's population) over the last 14 years.

So let’s to it I am going to give you a simple method on how to stop inadvertently killing the game's population.

1) "Integrity" of the game world. Imagine the game world is crystal clear tropical waters untouched by man where life thrives and nature abounds. Imagine a large cess-pump is then built by people who move in and every time someone talks over voice chat, that pump opens up and spills raw sewage into the water.

If it is a life and death situation in the heat of combat, then yes, you are excused to go to the bathroom in the water by projecting *your* voice over *everyone's* game. Remember, once you start talking, people are no longer playing the game they were playing. They are no longer playing in Stormreach. The atmospheric music is cut off, the ambience is gone... the "spell" is broken. Once *you* start talking, the game is over, the spell is over, we are now playing *your* game. Your voice is now cutting through everything. For the love of god, please recognize that if you want to have a chat room or play a card game where everyone is first and foremost talking, and the game is secondary, do it in another channel. If you have a hard time understanding this, I am sorry to say it, but *you* have a serious problem with people and consideration.

Just try to recognize the game with voice chat is 100% entirely different from actually playing DDO. Voice enabled is a shallow game where people have the need to "fill" the silence with stupid comments, their "laughing" that on some banal level they think is adding to the game, as if people are playing the game just to socialize with that person. For the love of god, if you find yourself laughing over voice chat, *try* to get it through your head that you are replacing the entertainment of the game with what you consider to be entertaining. Would you get up in a crowded movie theatre and go up on stage and start doing a stand-up routine when people are trying to watch the movie they paid for? Obviously not, so please don't *laugh* over voice chat.

The best advice I can give you is to equate voice chat with a toilet. Please be considerate. Unless you are about to die and it is in the middle of combat, have mercy on everyone and type whatever you need to say. It is 1000% more considerate.

#2: Stop invading people's personal space with your approach to the game. When you group with people in the public groups there is a very, very simple rule that you can follow, that you may have a very hard time understanding how it makes sense, but if you just do it, you will stop killing off the population in DDO like you have done over the past 14 years. It’s very simple: Play your character and act like you haven’t done the dungeon before. Not everyone is trying to get through the dungeon the fastest, or most efficiently... and even if they are or they aren't, it doesn't matter. Just do it. Do not talk, do not announce traps.

Now it’s important to recognize here that you’re not being asked to babysit new players. That’s not what this about. What this is about is making other players uncomfortable by being too pushy with your approach. By just playing your character in silence (in other words not communicating anything based on your prior knowledge) and just *doing* it, they might die and yes you might end up soloing or duoing the dungeon while a few of the players are left behind. But the key here is that you are not making people uncomfortable. Everything stays 'low-key'. Yes that new or unexperienced player may die in the trap, but the charm is not going to be gone, the spell is not going to be broken, and they are going to be happy continuing to play the game. It’s called learning how to give other people the space they have a right to without imposing your approach or 'your way' on people.

As I said before, because of people's failure to understand this important point, many players in the past have simply been driven away from the game. This has also resulted in a major dissatisfaction of many of the players who now don't have many players to play with because those players were driven away because they were made to feel uncomfortable (like they'd rather just "not deal with it"). I am sorry to say it but the pushy instructional players have basically nearly killed this game. The Hardcore league seems to have recently brought some of that "magic" back to the game and that is the reason I am now bringing this to people's attention.

Be considerate. If you are that good, remember when you join a group, your group is part of the anomaly. Act "as if" you are in a real role playing game. You don't *know* the other characters... you *think* you do but you really don't know them, just like you don't know the skill of the other players or their prior experience with the dungeon. To "talk" to or communicate with them player to player is to do them a disservice. You have basically invaded the "space" of *their* game. You have violated the integrity of their game experience, whether you are aware of it or not, because you don't know how they approach the game or what how they play their character. You have basically *devalued* them as a player and basically stated that your time in doing the dungeon for the 100th time in the most efficient way possible is more important than whatever their experience may be. What you have done is you have insulted them, you have broken the "spell" of the game and the "charm" of the game has worn off which then causes them to leave the game and say the game "is not for me". Then many of your fellow players who take a more moderate approach (i.e. they can play with all kinds of people) are left with no one to play with (or as is the case with DDO, a massively reduced game population). Many of the moderate players either just leave the game as well or they learn to just be quiet about it and not stand up to the "control tyrants" (i.e. pushy instructional players) because they think they will be ostracized as well for taking what might be considered an unorthodox approach to the game (by the analytical, controlling types who take it upon themselves to *help* everyone complete the dungeons in the most efficient way possible because their time is so valuable).

The bottom line is top disrespecting other people's game space with the assertion that your time is more valuable than their experience. If you group with other people, be quiet and "just do it." Act like it’s your first time in the dungeon. If you need other's to cooperate with your idea or strategy, if at all possible, type it in chat and put it in a way that doesn't devalue the game experience for everyone by making it obvious that you've done it 100's of times before and know how things turn out. Learn to play the game the way it was meant to be played and respect and value everyone's game experience and not run people over because your time is too valuable.

I know that many of the people here are analytical control types and that is the way that *they* enjoy the game. And I'm not saying they aren’t entitled to enjoy the game as they choose. What I *am* saying is wrong is to de-value or ostracize the myriad of other ways to approach the game and act like your way is the *only* way to approach the game.

"Instructing" people on how to play the game because your time is valuable is no different than stating for a fact that certain people are "jerks." Start to give people the respect they deserve and treat their space and time with respect and hopefully we will continue to see the growth of the game with more people coming back and staying with the introduction of the hardcore server.

[redoubt]

While I agree that there are people who talk to much, how is the quoted post not hypocritical?

Don't talk, don't use your experience, don't teach.... because you might negatively affect someone else's gameplay.

What about the person who enjoys talking to people? What about the people who enjoy teaching and sharing knowledge? Is their experience not as valuable?

So when I put up an LFM for R3 Sharn and people don't talk and coordinate, can I say that they are ruining my experience because they are not using voice chat to our combined tactical advantage?

A few years ago people were yelling at vets for not teaching new players the game. Now that vets are doing so it is suddenly "ruining" the experience???

[Aelonwy]

I'm confused too. I could understand if its new content, or you know you are with a brand new player to give them the space to explore and get "first hand" or a discovery experience. But if you are mostly with static friends and guildies do you always still RP your characters? I RP with my daughter because that's what she finds fun in DDO but otherwise with static friends and even groups where we let a couple PUGs in to fill there is usually general friendly chatter or tactical chatter in the case of the few raids I'm willing to do. Even when we play PnP we aren't always in character. We fourth wall break like Deadpool... a lot.

I guess I had no awareness that friendly conversations (at least I assume that's what the "laughter" comment was about) were turning away role players. I haven't ran across many in ages, and they mostly spent their time in the taverns talking to each other rather than questing it seemed at the time.

I do wholeheartedly agree that when some members of the group are on XP potion timers their play becomes more perfunctory and they loose interest in having fun in order to be more efficient. Sometimes this makes them less courteous or patient with other members of the group that are not being as efficient.

[Quikster]

Can't I just play the way I want too, and you can play the way you want to? If you want to dungeon crawl, don't join a LFM that says R1, Elite, Zerg, TR Train, Leveling, etc. I don't join LFM's that say Normal, Learning the Quest, Flower Sniffing, RP, ETC. If I get into someone else's group, I usually do as they ask. Then when the quest is over, I leave. I figure that's respectful enough. Now I need to change how I play all the time?

[Andu_Indorin]

This post is not mine. It came from a thread that was locked because of some political language in the original post.

I thought the post was basically pretty good so I am re-posting it here with some spelling and grammatical mistake fixes. I have also removed the offending political language and slightly altered the end of the post to reflect a conclusion that made sense in light of the removal of the political language.

To be clear, I do not agree with *all* of the points made, but I felt the post was worthy of a discussion.

1. I am so very glad the original post was promptly reported; and that Cordovan shut it down for the obvious reasons, and did so before the weekend started.

2. I sort of question the repost, if only because the "original" political content suggests a somewhat skewed perspective ("100's of millions of Americans" …).

3. At a guess, the poor social behavior of a limited number of players amounts for but a fraction of player loss in DDO. Maybe around 10%, at the very most?

4. Two words from the original post that merit consideration: "Be considerate."

[False_Gods]

1. I am so very glad the original post was promptly reported; and that Cordovan shut it down for the obvious reasons, and did so before the weekend started.

2. I sort of question the repost, if only because the "original" political content suggests a somewhat skewed perspective ("100's of millions of Americans" …).

3. At a guess, the poor social behavior of a limited number of players amounts for but a fraction of player loss in DDO. Maybe around 10%, at the very most?

4. Two words from the original post that merit consideration: "Be considerate."


Obvious reasons? The post was shut down most likely due to an auto flag when a certain invidivual was named in the post. The post has absolutely nothing to do with that and it was only brought up at the very end of the post as a metaphor comparing certain individuals with certain opinions presenting their *opinions* as facts and how this is similar to people who approach the game a certain way assuming that everyone has the same approach and as a result disrespecting (either inadvertantly out of ignorance, or advertantly because they just don't care and feel their time is more valuable than others'), which has ultimately caused the game to lose a large section of the population over the years, because those people (who take a more fun, relaxed approach to the game didn't feel comfortable playing or being ostracized by the other types)

What you call "poor social behavior" is as wide description as there are different types of players. That is the point of the post. What you consider helping someone, many other players may consider extremely poor social behavior. And the person helping that other person may or may not have good intentions... based on whether they have any clue that other ways of approaching the game even exist. That is the point of the post, to bring up discussion on the matter so that there is more understanding across the board.

What people need to know is that many, many people have left the game over the years because pushy controlling types have taken over, and many people would rather simply not play the game than be labeled as 'weird' by an aggressive, pushy, inconsiderate section of the population that really has no idea how an actual role playing game is supposed to work.

I am not saying there is one way of playing the game. Everyone is entitled to approach and enjoy the game however they like, so long as they respect others. What I am saying is that there would be many, many more players playing the game today if the pushy, controlling, aggressive, inconsiderate, controlling types stopped ostracizing people who do not approach or are not willing to approach the game in the same 'efficient' manner as they do. Furthermore, there are many 'moderate' types who have simply been quiet about this for fear of being ostracized themselves, and what I am telling you now (whether you want to believe it or not) is that this has resulted in a massive reduction of the game's population, that is now being felt by everyone on the regular servers.

If people were A) more considerate and B) had more of an understanding that there is more than one way to approach the game and C) had more respect for other people we would not be in this boat with all the other servers being dead.

[erethizon]

I love the analogy of people's voices being the equivalent of polluting the water. I couldn't agree more. What is worse is some people *only* talk so if you don't have your game set to hear their terrible voice you will never be able to communicate with them. I miss the old days when MMO's didn't have built in voice chat.

[Fenrisulven7]

because pushy controlling types have taken over

I am not asking you to use comms, you are asking me to stop using them.

[False_Gods]

Now.. back to focusing on the solution. I know that many players are kind of seeing this as being forced to accept crummy players or people who approach the game in a haphazard way or what many might consider to be 'dumb' players who join a reaper group without having the proper experience/knowledge thus putting everyone else's characters at risk.

What I am saying is that there is a somewhat universal solution to this and that is to treat everyone in the group kind of like how you treat the other variables in the game world that arent' under your control. The key here is that by doing this you are also respecting their 'player space' and affirming your own 'player space'. The result being that regardless to the outcome in game, people aren't going to walk away from the game feeling 'less than' and this will result in an overall much healthier game environment for all.

I think Rush said it best: Show Don't Tell. Just do it. Start to actually play your character from your character's perspective and it will enrich the overall game environment making it a healthier and more vibrant place for all. Even those who are still learning.

I hope it made sense and thank you to Arcat for opening up the thread for further discussion.

[Andu_Indorin]

What people need to know is that many, many people have left the game over the years because pushy controlling types have taken over, and many people would rather simply not play the game than be labeled as 'weird' by an aggressive, pushy, inconsiderate section of the population that really has no idea how an actual role playing game is supposed to work.

This has not been my experience on the servers I have played. I have certainly encountered a very limited number that do fit your description, I can see the validity of your point. I tend to avoid grouping with such players a second time; and I have on rare occasions told them to shut the hell up after they have joined a group mid-quest.

Perhaps on the servers you play most, more people have left the game because of such "helpful" people, rather than blacklist and avoid grouping with them. My experience has been one where the recreational players have left because of specific changes to the game.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

or you know you are with a brand new player to give them the space to explore and get "first hand" or a discovery experience.

How many new players are there ?

None.

And that's why some people assume everyone knows everything.

[False_Gods]

This has not been my experience on the servers I have played. I have certainly encountered a very limited number that do fit your description, I can see the validity of your point. I tend to avoid grouping with such players a second time; and I have on rare occasions told them to shut the hell up after they have joined a group mid-quest.

Perhaps on the servers you play most, more people have left the game because of such "helpful" people, rather than blacklist and avoid grouping with them. My experience has been one where the recreational players have left because of specific changes to the game.

Believe me I have been here since the beginning and there used to be a massive number of people who enjoy playing the game and grouping in the public groups without taking it so seriously. Those people are now gone. First they try to go to another server, and then they eventually disappear completely because dealing with scrutiny in public groups is just not worth it and they decide the game is not for them.

People need to learn the concept of walking lightly in the forest. Many people *were* here to enjoy the game and learn it and experiment and the enjoyment for them was finding things out for themselves, experimenting, and being able to join public groups without coming across someone to "help" them by telling them how to build their character, how to play their character, how to get through the dungeon the quickest. Those people are now gone because the enjoyment of the game was gone. The negativity they encountered was simply not worth it and the charm of the game wore off, and as a result the whole idea of "soloing" everything came along. Moderate players at the same time learned to be silent lest they also be 'classified' as 'dumb' people and find that they were also avoided by what would soon become the vocal majority.

Now there is a huge section of the population missing who simply wanted to group with other people in the public groups and learn the game at their own pace. What power gamers apparently do not get is that a big part of the game is figuring things out for yourself, experimenting and trying new things. The whole game does not revolve around finding a build on the forum and learning the most efficient way of doing things to make sure you don't accidentally waste someone's time in a public group.

[SerPounce]

Is objecting to voice chat really a common issue at all? That's the first time I've heard it. I know now everyone uses it, but I never got the impression there was a significant group of people that was rabidly against it. Much less a major factor in driving people away from the game.


The whole rant seems really idiosyncratic. He's entitled to his opinion, but I don't think it's representative of anyone other than this one particular individual.

[MacDubh]

Believe me I have been here since the beginning and there used to be a cabbage number of people who enjoy playing the game and grouping in the public groups without taking it so seriously. Those people are now gone. First they try to go to another server, and then they eventually cabbage completely because dealing with scrutiny in public groups is just not worth it and they decide cabbage.

People need to learn the concept of walking lightly in the forest. Cabbage people *were* here to enjoy the game and learn it and experiment and the enjoyment for them was finding things out for themselves, experimenting, and being able to join public groups without coming across someone to "help" them by telling them how to build their character, how to play their character, how to get through the dungeon the quickest. Those people are now cabbage because the enjoyment of the game was gone. The negativity they encountered was simply not worth it and the charm of the game wore off, and as a result the whole idea of "soloing" cabbage came along. Moderate players at the same time learned to be silent lest they also be 'classified' as cabbage and find that they were also avoided by what would soon become the vocal majority.

Now there is a cabbage section of the population missing who simply wanted to group with other people in the public groups and learn the game at their own pace. What power gamers apparently do not get is that a big part of the game is figuring things out for yourself, experimenting and trying new things. The whole game does not revolve around finding a build on the forum and learning the most efficient way of doing things to make sure you don't accidentally waste someone's time in a public group.

Cabbage is versatile

[Andu_Indorin]

Believe me I have been here since the beginning and there used to be a massive number of people who enjoy playing the game and grouping in the public groups without taking it so seriously. Those people are now gone. First they try to go to another server, and then they eventually disappear completely because dealing with scrutiny in public groups is just not worth it and they decide the game is not for them.

People need to learn the concept of walking lightly in the forest. Many people *were* here to enjoy the game and learn it and experiment and the enjoyment for them was finding things out for themselves, experimenting, and being able to join public groups without coming across someone to "help" them by telling them how to build their character, how to play their character, how to get through the dungeon the quickest. Those people are now gone because the enjoyment of the game was gone. The negativity they encountered was simply not worth it and the charm of the game wore off, and as a result the whole idea of "soloing" everything came along. Moderate players at the same time learned to be silent lest they also be 'classified' as 'dumb' people and find that they were also avoided by what would soon become the vocal majority.

Now there is a huge section of the population missing who simply wanted to group with other people in the public groups and learn the game at their own pace. What power gamers apparently do not get is that a big part of the game is figuring things out for yourself, experimenting and trying new things. The whole game does not revolve around finding a build on the forum and learning the most efficient way of doing things to make sure you don't accidentally waste someone's time in a public group.

I agree with almost all that you have said here. My principal difference is the belief that the poor implementation of reaper, which badly fragmented the gaming population, did more to drive recreational players away than those players who insist that they know what is best for everyone. Nonetheless, your points DO have merit.

[Oliphant]

1. Voice is charming and helpful. Don't overdo it a.k.a. be rude.
2. Follow the star. It's a temporary role, nothing personal.

[Fenrisulven7]

Now.. back to focusing on the solution.

Back up a bit first. You're coming off a tad authoritarian, and I don't remember voting for you in any election. Have you considered that people on the other side of this have a perspective as valid as yours?


What I am saying is that there is a somewhat universal solution to this and that is to treat everyone in the group kind of like how you treat the other variables in the game world that arent' under your control. The key here is that by doing this you are also respecting their 'player space' and affirming your own 'player space'. The result being that regardless to the outcome in game, people aren't going to walk away from the game feeling 'less than' and this will result in an overall much healthier game environment for all.

Sounds kind of Social Justicey, don't want any of that in my chocolate, thanks. And I notice you've assumed the role of spokesperson for the thousands of gamers who have left. Do they know? Did they approve? Are you championing THEIR cause, or are you using them as props to further your own personal cause? Because I left the game years ago - over the Curse and Winter Festival nerfs, it had nothing to do with comms or rude zergers. And I knew the new players, because I had alts parked at various levels to run "newbie friendly, no zerg" groups through quests like Gwylans, Tear and Tempest Spine.


Show Don't Tell. Just do it. Start to actually play your character from your character's perspective and it will enrich the overall game environment making it a healthier and more vibrant place for all. Even those who are still learning.

Upthread you complained about telling others how to play. Don't you see this as telling others how to play? Have you read Chesteron's Fence? It's short, so here:

"In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”

This paradox rests on the most elementary common sense. The gate or fence did not grow there. It was not set up by somnambulists who built it in their sleep. It is highly improbable that it was put there by escaped lunatics who were for some reason loose in the street. Some person had some reason for thinking it would be a good thing for somebody. And until we know what the reason was, we really cannot judge whether the reason was reasonable. It is extremely probable that we have overlooked some whole aspect of the question, if something set up by human beings like ourselves seems to be entirely meaningless and mysterious. There are reformers who get over this difficulty by assuming that all their fathers were fools; but if that be so, we can only say that folly appears to be a hereditary disease. But the truth is that nobody has any business to destroy a social institution until he has really seen it as an historical institution. If he knows how it arose, and what purposes it was supposed to serve, he may really be able to say that they were bad purposes, or that they have since become bad purposes, or that they are purposes which are no longer served. But if he simply stares at the thing as a senseless monstrosity that has somehow sprung up in his path, it is he and not the traditionalist who is suffering from an illusion." — G.K. Chesterton

See, other people may be mean to you, but I think you are acting in good faith and simply don't see the other side's pov, and maybe a little blind to how controlling you come off.

Think it over, trying to come up with arguments FOR why people prefer voice comms. In the Marines, clear comms was our most lethal weapon.

[Memnir]

https://i.imgur.com/PGzX9ru.gif

[Fenrisulven7]

:cool: I still remember you, Memnir. But I can't recall if that's a good thing or a bad thing. LOL

[Memnir]

:cool: I still remember you, Memnir. But I can't recall if that's a good thing or a bad thing. LOLhttps://i.imgur.com/xQfBgMt.gif

[Fenrisulven7]

YES. That must be it

[False_Gods]

Back up a bit first. You're coming off a tad authoritarian, and I don't remember voting for you in any election. Have you considered that people on the other side of this have a perspective as valid as yours?



Sounds kind of Social Justicey, don't want any of that in my chocolate, thanks. And I notice you've assumed the role of spokesperson for the thousands of gamers who have left. Do they know? Did they approve? Are you championing THEIR cause, or are you using them as props to further your own personal cause? Because I left the game years ago - over the Curse and Winter Festival nerfs, it had nothing to do with comms or rude zergers. And I knew the new players, because I had alts parked at various levels to run "newbie friendly, no zerg" groups through quests like Gwylans, Tear and Tempest Spine.



Upthread you complained about telling others how to play. Don't you see this as telling others how to play? Have you read Chesteron's Fence? It's short, so here:

"In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”

This paradox rests on the most elementary common sense. The gate or fence did not grow there. It was not set up by somnambulists who built it in their sleep. It is highly improbable that it was put there by escaped lunatics who were for some reason loose in the street. Some person had some reason for thinking it would be a good thing for somebody. And until we know what the reason was, we really cannot judge whether the reason was reasonable. It is extremely probable that we have overlooked some whole aspect of the question, if something set up by human beings like ourselves seems to be entirely meaningless and mysterious. There are reformers who get over this difficulty by assuming that all their fathers were fools; but if that be so, we can only say that folly appears to be a hereditary disease. But the truth is that nobody has any business to destroy a social institution until he has really seen it as an historical institution. If he knows how it arose, and what purposes it was supposed to serve, he may really be able to say that they were bad purposes, or that they have since become bad purposes, or that they are purposes which are no longer served. But if he simply stares at the thing as a senseless monstrosity that has somehow sprung up in his path, it is he and not the traditionalist who is suffering from an illusion." — G.K. Chesterton

See, other people may be mean to you, but I think you are acting in good faith and simply don't see the other side's pov, and maybe a little blind to how controlling you come off.

Think it over, trying to come up with arguments FOR why people prefer voice comms. In the Marines, clear comms was our most lethal weapon.


I appreciate your sincere attempt to add to the discussion here. But lets get one thing clear. Masses of people are now gone because they were chased off by disrespectful people. When you disrespect someone it can be unintentional because you do not understand their customs or culture or because you simply do not care. I don't know and honestly I don't care why it happened but it has. That is a fact because the large variety of people who were here a decade ago are no longer here. The people who *are* here are people for the most part who either do not understand that there are many people who don't want to be told "How to Play On the Hardcore Server" or they simply do not care and would prefer that those people disappear so that they don't accidentally end up in a group with them and they aren't hindered by their lack of efficiency or ability.

I am also not saying that I myself am not guilty quite a bit of the time of possibly imposing my will on other people while running challenging content. Like everyone else, I have expectations, and when my limits are reached for whatever reason, and I am counting on someone else to pull their fair share of the weight, I too can be imposing on other people.

What I am suggesting here is a simple approach to the game that everyone can take into consideration that will hopefully allow people from all backgrounds to gain a little more awareness of how they are effecting other people in the game. Hopefully this will promote a healthier environment for all that will not result in a further loss of the game's population. Hell, it might even bring people back.

Regarding voice chat, yes it is 10 times better than it was 10 years ago when the common rhetoric was that "it was ok if you don't want to talk but be sure you have it on so you can hear everyone else". I want to make it crystal clear that you've got two ENTIRELY different games going on with and without voice chat. And I want to make it crystal clear that every person who talks in a public group is severely detracting from the quality of the game from those who are considerate enough to not burden others with having to hear their voice trumpeting over the game whenever they feel the need to communicate something. Moral to the story: Type whenever possible. Every time you speak, it is *severely* detracting from the quality of the experience of those who take it upon themselves to type (out of consideration for others). Its like being quiet in a library, a movie theatre, out in nature, however you want to put it.

Are you entitled to have everyone communicating via voice comms in your own private group? Obviously of course you are. What I am talking about is the 1)the standard of etiquette in public groups, 2) learning how to give other people space and 3) Implementing that into an overall approach to the game and grouping that will create a healthier environment that will keep people grouping more and attract new players to the game.

And yes, adopting an "in character" perspective is a good way to start learning how to do this. Its a way to keep yourself in check when you might otherwise drive people away from the game without realizing it, which unfortunately, has already happened on a massive scale in this game. As you can see by the few people here who are in agreement with what I'm saying, there are still a few of us left who have *not* left the game who are trying to let the rest of you know that there is a different way of going about things.

[False_Gods]

Here's a great way to explain what its like hearing someone over voice chat. Imagine that, as a person who types whenever possible, (99% of the time), the 'quality' of my time is sitting at 100%. I am relaxing, enjoying the game with others in the group, in peaceful silence.

Then, someone joins and jumps on their microphone.

Here is a play by play of what is going on for the non-speakers:
100%
(over voice chat: )"Hey all, omw"
What goes through everyone's mind... "Hey.. brother! Friend! Family! Fellow DDO player... Great to hear your voice, great to know your there! Awesome man (or woman) and welcome to the group! Great to have you!
Few seconds later... the 2nd "communication" comes through..."Which quest are we doing?"
Rest of the group in silence: "Umm Yeah! Great.. yeah here let me share the quests... glad to have you on board..."
10-15 seconds later... the 3rd "communication" comes over the speakers... "blah blah blah whatever"
Mmm.. yeah (types in chat) next one we're doing is Chamber of Insanity.

By now the voice speaker is not only playing Dungeons and Dragons Online, he is now playing a new game called "All About Me and Listen to Me and Answer Me" And he is having a great time!

Unfortunately by about this time, the energy level of the rest of the group is now starting to decline. Each person now has a decision to make... do I simply turn off the voice volume or do I continue to cater to this individual.

By the time we're 10 or 15 minutes into the group, anyone who has not muted the speaking individual is now completely exhausted and having a miserable time. The game, which was once a vibrant and atmospheric experience has become
basically a dung heap with first and foremost trying to hear and make out what is being said, and what has now become an afterthought is the actual game itself, i.e the music, the sound effects, the dungeon master, and everything else.

Does it mean that they don't like someone's voice? Absolutely not. Does it mean that they don't consider the speaker a friend and 'comrade' in DDO? No.. of course not. What it means is that it has turned the game into a drudge, what was once a relaxing, exciting experience, has become an exhausting ordeal that you just want to end.

Now of course the "Speaker" on the other hand, has just successfully drained everyone's energy and is having a great old time yammering on about this or that, happy in his mind that the others are just "shy" or maybe don't have the courage to talk in "front of the group".. but its ok because the speaker can take it upon himself to "fill" the silence by talking for everyone.

Now of course by this time, everyone has turned the voice volume down to 0% aside from the Ultra-considerate host/group leader (i.e. the OP of this thread) who is always going out of his way to make sure that everyone is having a good time, whether they are using voice chat or not.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I was just thinking :

"How disappointing that so few people were replying on my "Pirate Look" thread ! - But on the other hand, it really shows of what kinds of people the community exists nowdays - maths-heavy people only talking about mechanics and maths. So, no surprise then."

Years ago, there was more diversity in the forums. Now, almost only the hardcore maths people have remained.

[False_Gods]

I was just thinking :

"How disappointing that so few people were replying on my "Pirate Look" thread ! - But on the other hand, it really shows of what kinds of people the community exists nowdays - maths-heavy people only talking about mechanics and maths. So, no surprise then."

Years ago, there was more diversity in the forums. Now, almost only the hardcore maths people have remained.


When I first saw the "How to Play on the Hardcore Server" thread, I opened it up expecting to see some kind of joke... like "How do YOU eat a Reeses" (its a candy commercial we have here in the U.S. because there "is no right way to eat a Reese") :p

When I opened up the thread and saw the 3 page dissertation I coughed up my coffee all over my keyboard! At first I was really mad because it was basically like a huge spoiler. Then of course I realized that everyone could choose to open and read the thread or not... but still... I found it quite strange that someone would have no issue putting that out there without at least maybe a warning or a notice that it could be considered "spoiler" material.

Anyway to each his own. For me it really puts in perspective how the pendulum has swung and who got the axe over the last several years. :cool:

[Noir]

The game has a volume control for every member of the party.
If you find someone annoying just slide their volume down and problem solved.
If you find all voice chat annoying then turn it off.

Some of us actually like the social aspects of the game, and you can speak a warning to the party
far faster then you type one out.
If I join a party and ask "What quest are we doing?" It will be because of the length of time
The party has been in the quest and they might well have completed and just not updated the LFM.
This is especially prevalent on chain quests either in Sharn or Ravenloft.

When I join a party I follow the leader.
If the leader veers off the main path to do an optional I will follow him on his chosen path.
( Yes, even on the HC server. )
If the leader is Zerging, I zerg. If the leader is flower sniffing , I flower sniff.

The leader went to the trouble to post the LFM. If I don't agree with his leadership style I will leave the party after the quest
where I realize our goals or play-styles, or ethics do not align. I will not try to usurp control nor complain or whine.

Quit asking for a blanket solution when the tools are already available to squelch out ALL voice chat.

Some of the player base actually really enjoy voice-chat.

Also you claim to have played the game for a very long time yet you have a join date of this year.
Although, I know it's possible to ignore the forums for up 13 years and some players do.

I'm not accusing you of posting from an account other then main. But in my experience anyone posting from
a account other then main does so either because of a previous ban, or they are a coward and know what they are going to type might get them banned, Or they are just looking to troll.

[Maldorin]

Some of the player base actually really enjoy voice-chat.


Yeah I've never understood the aversion to using voice. It's one of the reasons I don't like to pug. The contrast is significant when sometimes I jump from a party of friends all using voice to a silent group of puggers all clickity clackity typing away.

Much prefer voice.

[Noir]

Yeah I've never understood the aversion to using voice. It's one of the reasons I don't like to pug. The contrast is significant when sometimes I jump from a party of friends all using voice to a silent group of puggers all clickity clackity typing away.

Much prefer voice.

Agreed

I'm just curious OP.
How many pen and paper DND games were you ever a player in where everyone at the table remained quiet
and wrote every action down and handed it to the DM?
Dungeons and Dragons is by it's very nature a "voice enabled" game.

[Potatofasf]

Voice chat is cool.

But, not everybody is able to be talking.

When I play, generally, I'm watching and listening my kids playing nearby... So, I can't keep Voice chating or hearing the in-game voices.

So, is cool when party leaders type some basic LFM info... Like:

- Welcome
- Quest in progress
- Next Quest
- Gear they are looking for

The active pep talkers could understand that not everyone is able to talk ir typing.

[redoubt]

In your opinion:


I appreciate your sincere attempt to add to the discussion here. But lets get one thing clear. Masses of people are now gone because they were chased off by disrespectful people. When you disrespect someone it can be unintentional because you do not understand their customs or culture or because you simply do not care. I don't know and honestly I don't care why it happened but it has. That is a fact because the large variety of people who were here a decade ago are no longer here. The people who *are* here are people for the most part who either do not understand that there are many people who don't want to be told "How to Play On the Hardcore Server" or they simply do not care and would prefer that those people disappear so that they don't accidentally end up in a group with them and they aren't hindered by their lack of efficiency or ability.

I am also not saying that I myself am not guilty quite a bit of the time of possibly imposing my will on other people while running challenging content. Like everyone else, I have expectations, and when my limits are reached for whatever reason, and I am counting on someone else to pull their fair share of the weight, I too can be imposing on other people.

What I am suggesting here is a simple approach to the game that everyone can take into consideration that will hopefully allow people from all backgrounds to gain a little more awareness of how they are effecting other people in the game. Hopefully this will promote a healthier environment for all that will not result in a further loss of the game's population. Hell, it might even bring people back.

Regarding voice chat, yes it is 10 times better than it was 10 years ago when the common rhetoric was that "it was ok if you don't want to talk but be sure you have it on so you can hear everyone else". I want to make it crystal clear that you've got two ENTIRELY different games going on with and without voice chat. And I want to make it crystal clear that every person who talks in a public group is severely detracting from the quality of the game from those who are considerate enough to not burden others with having to hear their voice trumpeting over the game whenever they feel the need to communicate something. Moral to the story: Type whenever possible. Every time you speak, it is *severely* detracting from the quality of the experience of those who take it upon themselves to type (out of consideration for others). Its like being quiet in a library, a movie theatre, out in nature, however you want to put it.

Are you entitled to have everyone communicating via voice comms in your own private group? Obviously of course you are. What I am talking about is the 1)the standard of etiquette in public groups, 2) learning how to give other people space and 3) Implementing that into an overall approach to the game and grouping that will create a healthier environment that will keep people grouping more and attract new players to the game.

And yes, adopting an "in character" perspective is a good way to start learning how to do this. Its a way to keep yourself in check when you might otherwise drive people away from the game without realizing it, which unfortunately, has already happened on a massive scale in this game. As you can see by the few people here who are in agreement with what I'm saying, there are still a few of us left who have *not* left the game who are trying to let the rest of you know that there is a different way of going about things.

In my opinion:

Play how you want.

I put up lots of LFMs. If you join my group, you will hear us talking. If you join my group at R3+ you better be listening, because that is how my friends and I play. Its okay if you don't like it and don't want to play that way. You are COMPLETELY FREE TO NOT JOIN US.

If you do join us. I will help you the best I can. I will share loot and help you make your character better. If it is the first week of new content and you tell me you've never been in the quest, I and my friends will let you lead and explore. I truly believe we are good to people who join us and are helpful.

So, again, in my opinion, you an take your high horse to another town.

[Bjond]

I want to make it crystal clear that every person who talks in a public group is severely detracting from the quality of the game

That's backwards. Typing means I am not playing. Instant immersion break. Reading what you type means I'm not watching the screen. Instant immersion break. Voice means I can stay immersed and effortlessly tune you out if you're not relevant. All normal human brains have this ability to a lesser or greater degree.

However, some people have special needs and can't tune things out. DDO addresses this by permitting anyone (whether they have this issue or not) to disable voice. Voila, no more problem .. except for the OP. He wants to reach out and turn everyone else's voice off. That's akin to the difference between a suicide and a suicide bomber.

The former earns help and consideration. I will type game-info as needed for someone that turns voice off. You'll miss out on a lot, but maybe that's what you need. The later? Well, if you're unwilling to be part of the solution, you are the precipitate.

[Fenrisulven7]

I appreciate your sincere attempt to add to the discussion here. But lets get one thing clear -

No lets not. Not until you check your tone. Especially while standing on a soap box lecturing us about bullying players out the door.

You are making assumptions that what enriches the game for you will do the same for everyone else.

You are claiming to speak for former players you have no authority or permission to represent.

You are using them as props to foist your own play preferences on the rest of us.

You have made no effort to recognize that other people may have other play preferences that are just as valid than your own.

And your wrapping all this in SJW language that makes me wonder if demands for Safe Spaces and Trigger Warnings will come next.

It is beginning to annoy me a great deal. I suggest you stop.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I think what actually happened is that all those people that like to take their time, sniff every flower, look under ever rock etc, after 13 years of playing, even they have finished every quest, a few times.

[Torkzed]

The game has a volume control for every member of the party.
If you find someone annoying just slide their volume down and problem solved.
If you find all voice chat annoying then turn it off.

Some of us actually like the social aspects of the game, and you can speak a warning to the party
far faster then you type one out.
If I join a party and ask "What quest are we doing?" It will be because of the length of time
The party has been in the quest and they might well have completed and just not updated the LFM.
This is especially prevalent on chain quests either in Sharn or Ravenloft.

When I join a party I follow the leader.
If the leader veers off the main path to do an optional I will follow him on his chosen path.
( Yes, even on the HC server. )
If the leader is Zerging, I zerg. If the leader is flower sniffing , I flower sniff.

The leader went to the trouble to post the LFM. If I don't agree with his leadership style I will leave the party after the quest
where I realize our goals or play-styles, or ethics do not align. I will not try to usurp control nor complain or whine.

Quit asking for a blanket solution when the tools are already available to squelch out ALL voice chat.

Some of the player base actually really enjoy voice-chat.

Also you claim to have played the game for a very long time yet you have a join date of this year.
Although, I know it's possible to ignore the forums for up 13 years and some players do.

I'm not accusing you of posting from an account other then main. But in my experience anyone posting from
a account other then main does so either because of a previous ban, or they are a coward and know what they are going to type might get them banned, Or they are just looking to troll.

^ This ^

Noir -- You saved me a lot of typing, thanks!

[redoubt]

So I'm a bit confused. Below you make a great input to the "how to play on the HC server" thread:



Keep a close eye on Demon Soul Champs...My first character was built to last and I was hit with basically an insta kill Poison Damage over time that did almost 400 damage instantly after I got hit with a magic missile from a Mephit of Risia champ. I am still not sure if was working as intended as it didn't add up in the combat log, I had the shield spell up and I ofc saved from the regular accompanying attacks. Plus it was on Elite not Reaper, whereas the wiki (incorrectly?) states that Tier 3's with the Poison damage over time should only appear in Reaper.

Moral to the Story: Demon Soul champ Damage over Time effects can kill you instantly... not sure if this is working as intended or not.

Its good info and can help people if they choose to look on the forums for this sort of thing. I am confused because you are railing on about people spoiling the experience, but then have this to offer. Which, itself, could be considered a spoiler.

If you indeed have the chops to routinely run R7, then please continue helping people in this manner (instead of telling people how they must play.)

It is far superior to what you are saying in this thread.

[MacDubh]

No lets not. Not until you check your tone. Especially while standing on a soap box lecturing us about bullying players out the door.

You are making assumptions that what enriches the game for you will do the same for everyone else.

You are claiming to speak for former players you have no authority or permission to represent.

You are using them as props to foist your own play preferences on the rest of us.

You have made no effort to recognize that other people may have other play preferences that are just as valid than your own.

And your wrapping all this in SJW language that makes me wonder if demands for Safe Spaces and Trigger Warnings will come next.

It is beginning to annoy me a great deal. I suggest you stop.

^ Agree with this ^

To original protagonist: Elitists with bad attitude annoy me too, but it's more annoying to see someone bleating on the forums about something that upset them and asserting that "lots" of people feel the same way and it's a "massive" impact on "half the population" and anyone who disagrees with them is ignoring a "massive" problem and that's a "FACT".

In this and other posts the sometimes valid and useful points being made are being drowned out by sanctimony. Sort of defeats the point?

Chill out and have some pickled cabbage.

[psykopeta]

I have some amazing theory for these cases:

How to stop driving people away from game? Well, asking them

Not supposing, nor saying "i think it is, most my guild, everybody" and such stuff that only tries to give more weight to one's feelings/thoughts/suggestions (it doesn't matter if 99% of current DDO players think that is right cause they're current players after all)

From an empyrical point of view: how to stop driving people away from game? Ask them, if possible fix the reason, if not... Deal with the loss lol

Rest of posts, threads, etc have a value of somewhere around 0

Also ignoring players with things like "i left cause that but hey, here i am posting everyday"

[Komradkillingmachine]

I'm the pushy control freak, sue me.

[Chai]

Stop invading people's personal space with your approach to the game.

This should be followed when advocating of nerfing an entire playstyle into the ground as well. With the new HC server, Id love to be playing a ~2015-esque assassin rogue build, but instead due to folks claiming it was OP and allowed people to skip quest content with no risk (a claim that could ONLY be made by those with little knowledge to how risky it actually is to skip encounters) - we now have an "unsupported" playstyle.

[Beelzebjorn]

So, there's this checkbox in settings saying "enable voicechat"?

Use it like everything else you spent time and money on: however and whenever you want. Great to have when you run into people who don't know basic social cues (or if you're one of them).

Keep "sorry mate, no headphones" copied to type into party chat if need be, and get on with your gaming however you feel like.

And don't be an A**hat. Evidence (like online forums) suggests it's possible to be very annoying in text as well.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

It's not easy understanding accents when using voice chat ... Plus, I'm nearly deaf on one ear. Someone I know plays another MMO while being fully deaf. He's good at what he knows to do, though.

[DirkTyrant]

When I first started playing DDO..... I joined a guild named "WE DO NOT run through dungeons". I thought to myself - HERE are some people that "get it". I was new, and learning, and wanted to go slow... and experience everything - it was Great. Then, 6 months later.... they were running through dungeons just like everyone else.

Zerging through dungeons does lose the feel of the game as an adventure. But the vast majority of players just want to do it that way - they have goals of achievement that they want to meet - xp to get, gear to farm, TRing, triple-completetionist stuff - and they are in a hurry to get there. It's not wrong... it's just what they want and I won't even try to invalidate it.

There could, however, be a server set aside for esoteric players that want to roleplay adventures. There are plenty of servers not serving any useful purpose. The Permadeath folks could play there, too. The current players on that server would be Happy to be merged into another server.... most players/servers should have been merged long ago anyway. Now, honestly, I don't know if there are enough "roleplaying" wannabe players in DDO to justify a dedicated server.... maybe just a guild of like-minded players... but I don't think any particular server has enough of those to even have enough for a decent sized guild.

Consequently leaving this whole topic pointless... and just a minimal few batch of complainers. But, if there were enough.... I'd join.

[arkonas]

snip

so i noticed you mentioned you were a founding father which means this is not your actual account. it would be one with a 2006 date not this year. Anyways let's put that to the side. I read what you wrote in the other topic and your replies here. So as someone who has been playing for near 10 years i can say i don't agree with a lot of things you say.


let me explain it like this because you're telling people how to act and how they intrude on other people's space when they use voice etc. or how they ruin the roleplay feel. so let's touch on the voice chat part. well ddo has had this for a long time. i've grouped a lot in my years and over 11k hours in the game. met a variety of people and those who don't talk as well. i have met some rude people as well as those who will report you if they find anything offensive. the thing i hate about when someone tells me i have to not use chat or they don't like what is being said like random things.

when things are focused like a raid or a tough fight/quest the voice chat i've seen/been in changes more to what is going on. when nothing is happening some people simply talk or try to make others laugh. you have the option to turn off voice or lower it down if there is someone who is just annoying you. you can block them as well. if they are breaking the rules report them and move on. anytime you just sit there and take whatever without using the proper tools then it's on you.

i've noticed people not have their voice on so i type to make sure they know what is going on. then if they say yes i know what i'm doing then i expect them to keep up or do their part. so i will touch on part 2 of the chatting part and that is yes you should be respectful to people simply because well no reason to be rude to them. again options to turn it off/block and leave group are available to you as well.

so now the roleplay part. i do that when i do gaming outside of the game. to expect other people to follow that is kinda bs. if you join their group they have no obligation to you or your friends to rp with you. welcome to public groups. you want to rp make your own group but to expect people to respect you while you rp in a public group you join and tell them not to ruin it. yeah you get no sympathy from me.

on the steam forums there is some heated discussions about the hardcore server and someone is telling people they shouldn't play on it or to go play other games because of their issues with the game. there is even new players asking for people to play and that same person running them off. tell me how that is any different then someone telling me or others how to use voice chat or rp in a public group. i will tell you now i will never tell you what to do. i will never join your rp group to ruin the experience. i will never join a casual group and zerg/troll them.

anyways i do treat other players with respect until they do something to annoy me such as snitch where you have to gather and they just go afk without saying anything or someone who is purposely trolling or being rude. i saw a guy on my server a founder i think who tore into a woman and made her cry over voice. yeah he was called out on it then just became abusive to everyone else. yet this guy is known to do this as well as drink.

[arkonas]

When I first started playing DDO..... I joined a guild named "WE DO NOT run through dungeons". I thought to myself - HERE are some people that "get it". I was new, and learning, and wanted to go slow... and experience everything - it was Great. Then, 6 months later.... they were running through dungeons just like everyone else.

Zerging through dungeons does lose the feel of the game as an adventure. But the vast majority of players just want to do it that way - they have goals of achievement that they want to meet - xp to get, gear to farm, TRing, triple-completetionist stuff - and they are in a hurry to get there. It's not wrong... it's just what they want and I won't even try to invalidate it.

There could, however, be a server set aside for esoteric players that want to roleplay adventures. There are plenty of servers not serving any useful purpose. The Permadeath folks could play there, too. The current players on that server would be Happy to be merged into another server.... most players/servers should have been merged long ago anyway. Now, honestly, I don't know if there are enough "roleplaying" wannabe players in DDO to justify a dedicated server.... maybe just a guild of like-minded players... but I don't think any particular server has enough of those to even have enough for a decent sized guild.

Consequently leaving this whole topic pointless... and just a minimal few batch of complainers. But, if there were enough.... I'd join.

heh i know that guild. i still think they run casual but have became more confident in their abilities. i enjoyed running with some of those people. i still know casual people who run reaper. sure they might not be good but doesn't mean they won't try it.

[Anuulified]

When I first started playing DDO..... I joined a guild named "WE DO NOT run through dungeons". I thought to myself - HERE are some people that "get it". I was new, and learning, and wanted to go slow... and experience everything - it was Great. Then, 6 months later.... they were running through dungeons just like everyone else.

Zerging through dungeons does lose the feel of the game as an adventure. But the vast majority of players just want to do it that way - they have goals of achievement that they want to meet - xp to get, gear to farm, TRing, triple-completetionist stuff - and they are in a hurry to get there. It's not wrong... it's just what they want and I won't even try to invalidate it.

There could, however, be a server set aside for esoteric players that want to roleplay adventures. There are plenty of servers not serving any useful purpose. The Permadeath folks could play there, too. The current players on that server would be Happy to be merged into another server.... most players/servers should have been merged long ago anyway. Now, honestly, I don't know if there are enough "roleplaying" wannabe players in DDO to justify a dedicated server.... maybe just a guild of like-minded players... but I don't think any particular server has enough of those to even have enough for a decent sized guild.

Consequently leaving this whole topic pointless... and just a minimal few batch of complainers. But, if there were enough.... I'd join.

I get this. I like to explore dungeons the first few times. But after 10+ I'm back in leveling and zerging mode. Maybe quest with random hidden optional areas would make them more interesting.

[Annihilyght]

...Start to actually play your character from your character's perspective and it will enrich the overall game environment...

I am not sure this is 100% true. In RL I am a super nice guy. I try never to offend anyone and ensure I always play the way others want to. I like to take it slow and thoroughly immerse myself in each and every quest (even the run to quests through the explorer areas). However, my character...he's an ass. He rips through content leaving newbs, noobs, and small children crying in his wake. He doesn't care about breakables or optionals or looting chests. I can still hear his chant in my mind as I type this message...xp Xp XP...heh. :D

[tinyelvis]

Nice, hey look at me Daddy thread. Look if you are a kid and don't want to participate in voice chat, then don't. I totally get it. People stop taking you serious and some wont invite you to their party.

[CSQ]

I think the best way to improve player retention is for players to be friendly and patient. It's a game, people make mistakes. I'll own up to it- I made someone ragequit a run because I accidentally re-entered the quest (Heroic Raid the Vulkoorim) so we had to restart it for max experience. I was not paying attention, so the fault was mine, but the reaction was a bit... extreme. Like, 0 to 60 ragequit. I felt pretty bad about it until I realized how humorous it was that presumably a grown adult threw a tantrum over a fifteen second mistake. Granted, I was nothing close to a newbie at the time, but sleep was not my strong suit and I was barely functional. Probably shouldn't have been grouping, but the past is the past.

Being friendly to players, welcoming them to the game, helping them learn things, being patient and understanding that they're human and not everyone knows the quest like the back of their hand are things that will help a lot. Yeah, not everyone will stay, but having a good, friendly player encourage you, offer to show you the ropes, and put up with mistakes is a lot better than rage quitting the moment something goes wrong, chewing out newbies for being dumb, etc. DDO has a lot of charm, and if people are willing to get past the fact that its an older game and isn't as graphically polished as, say, FFXIV, then what will really matter is their experience. I hear pretty frequently that the servers are dead, and yes, the population is small, but there are still plenty of opportunities to help newbies and encourage them.

Oh, yeah, and hate for casual players doesn't make sense to me. People play at their own level. That's fine. With the brave bonus changes, it doesn't kill anything to maybe do a run at a lower difficulty to help a newbie out from time to time, as long as it doesn't turn into just carrying them the whole way.

[Strider1963]

I remember when I started (about 10 yrs ago), around 3-4pm EST, when the kids got out of school, the population soared. Many, many, players. A lot were just there to have fun after school (after all, it is a GAME). I remember running heroic Tempest Spine (there was no epic version), and people dying in the end fight, getting bumped off, etc, and going around and rounding up their soulstones and taking them for a res so they could collect the end chest. NOW, its all about being uber and running multiple past lives as fast as they can, and of course pay to win.
Then theres the fact that theres no real endgame, just get on the hamster wheel over and over again. New players (the few that come here), see this and say forget it.
I dont see a big deal about voice chat in the game as long as no ones being obnoxious or just running off their mouth,.As long as its not overdone, its fine to me. People take the game way to seriously these days. I can understand where raiding is a more serious undertaking and people should be concentrating on playing and not talking, but who cares if you bs while doing the waterworks? There's too many ubers ruining the game for the non ubers today, so people quit. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Cantor]

https://i.imgur.com/PGzX9ru.gif

pretty much my feelings.

For this one guy who says stop talking ever, there are plenty who say have ears or don't waste my time.

This whole post is laughable. If the population in DDO drove you away, you're not going to find any online population acceptable. DDO has a lot of nice people.

Redoubt said it best
"Play how you want.

I put up lots of LFMs. If you join my group, you will hear us talking. If you join my group at R3+ you better be listening, because that is how my friends and I play. Its okay if you don't like it and don't want to play that way. You are COMPLETELY FREE TO NOT JOIN US.

If you do join us. I will help you the best I can. I will share loot and help you make your character better. If it is the first week of new content and you tell me you've never been in the quest, I and my friends will let you lead and explore. I truly believe we are good to people who join us and are helpful.

So, again, in my opinion, you an take your high horse to another town."

If I tried to elaborate, it would devolve into something rude.

[ld2950]

I appreciate your sincere attempt to add to the discussion here. But lets get one thing clear. Masses of people are now gone because they were chased off by disrespectful people. When you disrespect someone it can be unintentional because you do not understand their customs or culture or because you simply do not care. I don't know and honestly I don't care why it happened but it has. That is a fact because the large variety of people who were here a decade ago are no longer here. The people who *are* here are people for the most part who either do not understand that there are many people who don't want to be told "How to Play On the Hardcore Server" or they simply do not care and would prefer that those people disappear so that they don't accidentally end up in a group with them and they aren't hindered by their lack of efficiency or ability.

I am also not saying that I myself am not guilty quite a bit of the time of possibly imposing my will on other people while running challenging content. Like everyone else, I have expectations, and when my limits are reached for whatever reason, and I am counting on someone else to pull their fair share of the weight, I too can be imposing on other people.

What I am suggesting here is a simple approach to the game that everyone can take into consideration that will hopefully allow people from all backgrounds to gain a little more awareness of how they are effecting other people in the game. Hopefully this will promote a healthier environment for all that will not result in a further loss of the game's population. Hell, it might even bring people back.

Regarding voice chat, yes it is 10 times better than it was 10 years ago when the common rhetoric was that "it was ok if you don't want to talk but be sure you have it on so you can hear everyone else". I want to make it crystal clear that you've got two ENTIRELY different games going on with and without voice chat. And I want to make it crystal clear that every person who talks in a public group is severely detracting from the quality of the game from those who are considerate enough to not burden others with having to hear their voice trumpeting over the game whenever they feel the need to communicate something. Moral to the story: Type whenever possible. Every time you speak, it is *severely* detracting from the quality of the experience of those who take it upon themselves to type (out of consideration for others). Its like being quiet in a library, a movie theatre, out in nature, however you want to put it.

Are you entitled to have everyone communicating via voice comms in your own private group? Obviously of course you are. What I am talking about is the 1)the standard of etiquette in public groups, 2) learning how to give other people space and 3) Implementing that into an overall approach to the game and grouping that will create a healthier environment that will keep people grouping more and attract new players to the game.

And yes, adopting an "in character" perspective is a good way to start learning how to do this. Its a way to keep yourself in check when you might otherwise drive people away from the game without realizing it, which unfortunately, has already happened on a massive scale in this game. As you can see by the few people here who are in agreement with what I'm saying, there are still a few of us left who have *not* left the game who are trying to let the rest of you know that there is a different way of going about things.

you sir are a hypocrite you are not the be all of DDO..I myself have played the game for 11 years people come and go the majority of them that i have seen usually leave for the obvious reasons content,nerfs in their toons etc to name a few..People voice chatting do not detract from the game except in the very few groups i have been in that were roleplaying and in that case they specifically stated they wanted minimum chatter and you know what??everybody was respectful of that requirement..

Peace

[Cantor]

you sir are a hypocrite you are not the be all of DDO..I myself have played the game for 11 years people come and go the majority of them that i have seen usually leave for the obvious reasons content,nerfs in their toons etc to name a few..People voice chatting do not detract from the game except in the very few groups i have been in that were roleplaying and in that case they specifically stated they wanted minimum chatter and you know what??everybody was respectful of that requirement..

Peace

The biggest group I've seen leave was over warlock nerfs. We had a large group of people in guild who started playing around that time and they made warlocks and were able to do everything, and never learned to do anything but warlock and quit...

Maybe they do need to just buff everything to the top and then rebalance old content. No-one likes nerfs because something is taken away, but when it's always give give give and the old content doesn't change it becomes trivial.

[ld2950]

No lets not. Not until you check your tone. Especially while standing on a soap box lecturing us about bullying players out the door.

You are making assumptions that what enriches the game for you will do the same for everyone else.

You are claiming to speak for former players you have no authority or permission to represent.

You are using them as props to foist your own play preferences on the rest of us.

You have made no effort to recognize that other people may have other play preferences that are just as valid than your own.

And your wrapping all this in SJW language that makes me wonder if demands for Safe Spaces and Trigger Warnings will come next.

It is beginning to annoy me a great deal. I suggest you stop.


I remember when I started (about 10 yrs ago), around 3-4pm EST, when the kids got out of school, the population soared. Many, many, players. A lot were just there to have fun after school (after all, it is a GAME). I remember running heroic Tempest Spine (there was no epic version), and people dying in the end fight, getting bumped off, etc, and going around and rounding up their soulstones and taking them for a res so they could collect the end chest. NOW, its all about being uber and running multiple past lives as fast as they can, and of course pay to win.
Then theres the fact that theres no real endgame, just get on the hamster wheel over and over again. New players (the few that come here), see this and say forget it.
I dont see a big deal about voice chat in the game as long as no ones being obnoxious or just running off their mouth,.As long as its not overdone, its fine to me. People take the game way to seriously these days. I can understand where raiding is a more serious undertaking and people should be concentrating on playing and not talking, but who cares if you bs while doing the waterworks? There's too many ubers ruining the game for the non ubers today, so people quit. Just my 2 cents worth.

^^^^^^
Well said