Solo reaper or R0 dungeon levels

[TedSandyman]

I was ranting in another thread and near the end had an idea the might have some merit. So I thought I would start another thread to get it out there.

My idea is an R0 level dungeon that is ONLY for solo in which the only change from R1 is that it allows dungeon reentry.

Of course this idea may have been suggested before, in which case, ignore all of this and go back to playing.

This thread is about making solo viable, or at least one change to help soloists a bit, that wont affect anyone else in the slightest.

So if you are of the mind soloists shouldn't be in the game at all and nothing should ever be done to help soloists, please stop reading, your complaints about soloists aren't really what this thread is about.

Or if you just like to negative nellie your way into every conversation and put down every idea even if it wont affect you in the slightest, then please stop reading now. It wont hurt anyone. It will help some. Don't hate just to be hating.

If you have valid criticisms or problems with the idea I am putting forward (other than I hate soloists or I hate everything) then please put those criticisms here.

The reason I think this will help is that us casual players don't have time to zerg reaper like some of you do. And if we did have the time, we wouldn't want to zerg reaper like some of you do. And what I see happening to the game right now is that reaper, more than anything else that has ever been in the game before, is dividing the game into the reaper gods and us poor, dirty, weak mortals.

The point is, I and a lot of others who aren't gods, play this game solo. You could argue that this is an MMO and shouldn't be designed around soloists. I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, however, the way the game as progressed over the years solo has become a staple of the mortal crowd. If there were plenty of groups at all kinds of levels, this wouldn't be necessary. But there aren't and it is.

To suggest that soloists don't exist is wrong. To suggest that soloists shouldn't exist is bad, because there are a lot of us and we do contribute to the financial health of this game and that benefits everyone.

The game is now centered around reaper. Reaper IS the new elite. (or old elite.) Some people have the time to zerg reaper and some of us are more casual and do not have the time or patience for such zerging.

The game is now designed around reaper, which is fine, but it leaves us soloists in a bind. The game and a lot of the later dungeons are easy, or at least doable, while getting to the end fight. But the end fight is nearly impossible to do solo because of high HP, extreme DR, high damage dealing bosses. Also, reapers and champions can turn any fight into an insta-death at any turn.

The reaper dungeons are designed around a well balanced party getting to the boss and the idea, rightly, is that they shouldn't be able to take down the boss in a single hit. It should take some time. That is why these "bags of invulnerable hp" exist. They really need to exist as the game is currently.

Reaper was also designed around groups and getting people to group, which it should be, but assuming soloists do exist and soloists do have a place in this game, that causes some problems for said soloists.

Most notably, if you die in a dungeon and are in a party, there is some expectation that you will be resurrected or at least have your stone carried to a shrine.

Soloists don't run reaper as often (at high levels anyway) because even though there is a good chance of surviving to the end fight, the chance of surviving the end fight is very low.

So it goes something like this. You fight, fight, fight, die in end fight. You reenter, fight fight fight, die in end fight. You reenter, fight, die from champ or reaper. You reenenter, fight fight fight, win.

If you think zerging is boring, try dying in a dungeon and having to repeat it with nothing to show for it four times or more. Its like zerging in slow motion.

So, my idea is an R0 level dungeon which is basically a reaper level for soloists. Like the old solo dungeons, you can only open this level if you are alone.

The only different between R0 and R1 is that R0 allows reentry and maybe gives lower XP (3/4 or 1/2) or even better, give R1 XP and deducts a bit for number of reentries.

That way, when a lesser being logs in and wants to play, but there are no groups at their level, they can elect a solo reaper and know that, yeah they may die, but it wont all be for nothing and they wont have to restart.

This will allow the mortal class to advance on their own and, hopefully, one day, get enough reaper XP to play with the big dogs once again.

This idea could help narrow that divide between the groups. It will take the casual player longer, but given enough time, we can get there. And that is really all most of us casual players want. To know there is a way, given enough time, to get to the godly level. The reentry penalty, in my opinion, is the biggest impediment to that goal.

It won't hurt anyone. It wont slow down anyone. It wont make anything easier or harder for anyone who is not a soloist. It will simply make it easier for soloists to progress and stay in the game and keep spending money.

[Dragavon]

It won't hurt anyone. It wont slow down anyone. It wont make anything easier or harder for anyone who is not a soloist. It will simply make it easier for soloists to progress and stay in the game and keep spending money.

In general I hate to be negative to ideas other people come up with. Even if I do not agree then other people have other opinions, and what is not a good idea to me might be pure genious to others, I understand that.

But is soloing R1 really so hard that we need this?

If someone can solo elite they can also solo R1 with some thought and preparation.

We do not need the game to become easier than it is.

What we need is to make it easier for new players to learn the game and become good players. Making things easier will not teach new players anything.

[Potatofasf]

In general I hate to be negative to ideas other people come up with. Even if I do not agree then other people have other opinions, and what is not a good idea to me might be pure genious to others, I understand that.

But is soloing R1 really so hard that we need this?

If someone can solo elite they can also solo R1 with some thought and preparation.

We do not need the game to become easier than it is.

What we need is to make it easier for new players to learn the game and become good players. Making things easier will not teach new players anything.

Yes, for some builds it is that hard, because the self heal on Elite is very helpful.
I can solo R2/R3 using a Warlock, Cleric or any caster class by using scroll healing. While playing a Melee/Ranger that focus healing is on Hire/Pots is not time attractive go on R1. Is "completable", but not fun all the hassle, is totally different playing a PaleWiz, Blaster Warlock or MechArtificer.

[Silverleafeon]

The possible changes coming to reaper in future will making soloing reaper one, so much more viable.

Although reaper 1 is getting harder, much of that is scarier reaper along with higher saves against crowd control.
However, you will be able to approach reaper 1 with a much higher level toon.

In other words, instead of going into the Vale at level 16, you can enter the Vale at level 19 with zero experience penalties.
This extra three levels is enough to allow hirelings (along with your toon) much additional survivability and offensive power.

[Dragavon]

Yes, for some builds it is that hard, because the self heal on Elite is very helpful.
I can solo R2/R3 using a Warlock, Cleric or any caster class by using scroll healing. While playing a Melee/Ranger that focus healing is on Hire/Pots is not time attractive go on R1. Is "completable", but not fun all the hassle, is totally different playing a PaleWiz, Blaster Warlock or MechArtificer.

I have soloed a lot of R1 on a melee character, it is definately doable if you prepare for it.

My build has enough UMD to not fail on heal scrolls at level 9, and then gets 127HP from that heal scroll, selfhealing on R1. I heal myself for a lot more as levels increase and I get better gear and enhancements to boost heal amp. I think about 170HP at lvl 18.

[Potatofasf]

if you prepare for it.



Because everyone has to MAX out UMD and focus 30% on completing the quests and 70% Selfhealing.

[hp1055cm]

In other words, instead of going into the Vale at level 16, you can enter the Vale at level 19 with zero experience penalties.
This extra three levels is enough to allow hirelings..

Where did you get "three levels" above from?
You mean 2 levels above (18 in the case of the vale), right, like standard bravery bonus - isn't that the proposed change to Reaper?

[Dragavon]

Because everyone has to MAX out UMD and focus 30% on completing the quests and 70% Selfhealing.

What I am saying is it can be done.

Stop complaining that you can not do it because you do not want to make an effort to build a better character and become a better player.

[Potatofasf]

What I am saying is it can be done.

Stop complaining that you can not do it because you do not want to make an effort to build a better character and become a better player.

I didn't say "I can't"... (Which I did, two or three lifes... snap) I said it is boring and counterproductive and make people LEAVE!

[ChadB123]

Reaper is not intended to be solo content, even if some people can solo it. I would suggest staying with elite, and the additional XP one gets from reaper will be reduced with the XP changes coming in U43.

[Dragavon]

I didn't say "I can't"... (Which I did, two or three lifes... snap) I said it is boring and counterproductive and make people LEAVE!

I completely disagree with you on that. I found it very satisfying and enjoyable when I saw that I was able to solo my way to lvl 20 on reaper difficulty. I totally loved some of those lives.

[Cantor]

Where did you get "three levels" above from?
You mean 2 levels above (18 in the case of the vale), right, like standard bravery bonus - isn't that the proposed change to Reaper?

Though requests for clarification from dev's have not been replied to it sounds like 3 level. Instead of bb level it will be normal exp penalties. Which is 0 for 1 over, 10 for 2 over, 25 for 3 over, etc. So with the change we go from base to one over adjusted, a change of 3.

[Renvar]

/not signed.

If you want to solo, that's cool. Solo R1. Reentry for a solo player just allows the player to resolve death via recall, tavern up and re-enter vs. using a rez cake, shrine, ED ability, spell, item, etc. There are methods already in the game to handle anything that happens in a quest. This isn't really about soloing as much as it is about not wanting to be bothered to get/use Death Pact, Phoenix, Reborn, Jibbers, a hireling with rez on the bar, rez cakes, shrines, Eladrin statues, mana pots, healing pots, scrolls, etc.

Re-entry isn't in the spirit of reaper where "the DM is trying to kill you". If anything, reaper should be changed to be more difficult and less convenient. For soloers and grouped players both. (Since we have had a lot of power creep in the 2 and a half years since it's debut).

[Zretch]

"the DM is trying to kill you"

When are people going to stop using this quote? The DM isn't trying to kill you on R1. If he was, there wouldn't be a need for R2-10. What, is the DM really trying to kill you on R4 and really, really, this time I mean it trying on R8?

They're just difficulty levels, and a game with this many build options, this many gearing options, and this narrow a level range requires more than just 4 difficulties.

BTW, if the DM wanted to kill you, he wouldn't have given you access to 800+ hitpoints within the reaper trees and a +25% hitpoint buff for melees. That DM is trying to keep you alive so you'll keep playing the game. You have 14 difficulty levels, balance between them and stop with this myth that reaper is some kind of unique and special game mode.

You want reaper to be unique and special? Remove heroic exp from reaper mode, set all reaper dungeons at level 30, and scale them up higher with skull levels. Set the reaper cores to only be effective in reaper dungeons. Have reaper equipment boosts only take effect in reaper mode. There, now you have a unique game mode as nothing you do inside reaper helps you outside of it, and in order to participate, you need to be at cap. Introduce reaper favor with reaper favor rewards to incent people to run every quest on as high a skull level as they can, rather than repeating the same easy quests over and over.

But that's not what the devs did. They made reaper cores impact non-reaper gameplay, they made reaper gear add boosts to non-reaper power levels, and they gave higher standard experience bonuses for running in reaper as you level up. This is absolutely fine as well, it's their game, but stop pretending that reaper is anything more than it is.

[Potatofasf]

I completely disagree with you on that. I found it very satisfying and enjoyable when I saw that I was able to solo my way to lvl 20 on reaper difficulty. I totally loved some of those lives.

Not everyone has the same level of contentment. The true reality has less and less people playing this game... so, much more people are feeling boredom/frustration and leaving than "enjoying it" like you do.


When are people going to stop using this quote? The DM isn't trying to kill you on R1. If he was, there wouldn't be a need for R2-10. What, is the DM really trying to kill you on R4 and really, really, this time I mean it trying on R8?

They're just difficulty levels, and a game with this many build options, this many gearing options, and this narrow a level range requires more than just 4 difficulties.

BTW, if the DM wanted to kill you, he wouldn't have given you access to 800+ hitpoints within the reaper trees and a +25% hitpoint buff for melees. That DM is trying to keep you alive so you'll keep playing the game. You have 14 difficulty levels, balance between them and stop with this myth that reaper is some kind of unique and special game mode.

You want reaper to be unique and special? Remove heroic exp from reaper mode, set all reaper dungeons at level 30, and scale them up higher with skull levels. Set the reaper cores to only be effective in reaper dungeons. Have reaper equipment boosts only take effect in reaper mode. There, now you have a unique game mode as nothing you do inside reaper helps you outside of it, and in order to participate, you need to be at cap. Introduce reaper favor with reaper favor rewards to incent people to run every quest on as high a skull level as they can, rather than repeating the same easy quests over and over.

But that's not what the devs did. They made reaper cores impact non-reaper gameplay, they made reaper gear add boosts to non-reaper power levels, and they gave higher standard experience bonuses for running in reaper as you level up. This is absolutely fine as well, it's their game, but stop pretending that reaper is anything more than it is.

Zretch +1!

[droid327]

Reaper is not intended to be solo content, even if some people can solo it. I would suggest staying with elite, and the additional XP one gets from reaper will be reduced with the XP changes coming in U43.

This.

Reaper was introduced because power creep had rendered Elite pretty trivial even for soloists, let alone for a well-built party. People werent bothering to group anymore because everyone could just solo everything anyway. Groupers were complaining there was no content for them, outside a handful of endgame raids, which are time-gated anyway. So Reaper was created, the self-heal penalty was implemented to prevent it from just becoming an extension of Elite solo-fest, and the scaling skull difficulty was created so that there was content at a difficulty that could challenge every group.

I'm a full-time soloist, so dont think I'm just dismissing it because I like to group. But you're arguing we just circle back around to the situation we were in in the first place - where everyone would just solo R0 for Reaper points because its easier than grouping.

Plus, with the upcoming proposed XP changes, Reaper is going to lose a lot of its luster anyway. You'll get full XP for running Elite, so as a soloist that can be your benchmark, you wont feel like you're losing out by not running R1. And R1 is manageable anyway, even the bosses - if you're not able to survive a boss fight solo, then you're not really ready for Reaper anyway. Elite is your "R0". Continue to improve your character and your build until you can handle R1.

[Renvar]

When are people going to stop using this quote? The DM isn't trying to kill you on R1. If he was, there wouldn't be a need for R2-10. What, is the DM really trying to kill you on R4 and really, really, this time I mean it trying on R8?

They're just difficulty levels, and a game with this many build options, this many gearing options, and this narrow a level range requires more than just 4 difficulties.

BTW, if the DM wanted to kill you, he wouldn't have given you access to 800+ hitpoints within the reaper trees and a +25% hitpoint buff for melees. That DM is trying to keep you alive so you'll keep playing the game. You have 14 difficulty levels, balance between them and stop with this myth that reaper is some kind of unique and special game mode.

You want reaper to be unique and special? Remove heroic exp from reaper mode, set all reaper dungeons at level 30, and scale them up higher with skull levels. Set the reaper cores to only be effective in reaper dungeons. Have reaper equipment boosts only take effect in reaper mode. There, now you have a unique game mode as nothing you do inside reaper helps you outside of it, and in order to participate, you need to be at cap. Introduce reaper favor with reaper favor rewards to incent people to run every quest on as high a skull level as they can, rather than repeating the same easy quests over and over.

But that's not what the devs did. They made reaper cores impact non-reaper gameplay, they made reaper gear add boosts to non-reaper power levels, and they gave higher standard experience bonuses for running in reaper as you level up. This is absolutely fine as well, it's their game, but stop pretending that reaper is anything more than it is.

I said "in the spirit of". That wasn't meant to be a hard and fast rule. Obviously, every Reaper dungeon could spawn 50 reapers on entry or just autodeath when you zone in, ala Shroud part 4 to part 5 portal.

The spirit of that comment is that reaper (all settings) will generally be unforgiving in a way that C/N/H/E are not. One of those is "no re-entry". Which, if enabled, allows for a lot of cheese. I get how it would make life a lot easier for players (solo or otherwise). But that's pretty much why it isn't allowed in the first place when they created the higher difficulty level. You have 4 difficulty levels that support re-entry. You don't need a 5th.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I was ranting in another thread and near the end had an idea the might have some merit. So I thought I would start another thread to get it out there.

My idea is an R0 level dungeon that is ONLY for solo in which the only change from R1 is that it allows dungeon reentry.


I pretty much only solo and I'm /notsigned

Just bring a Cleric hireling and park them at the front of the quest. If you die, run back a bit out of aggro range and get them to raise you.

If you die so much that you need to reenter, just start the quest over.


This doesn't need an entirely new game mechanic to be added to DDO.

[Silverleafeon]

Where did you get "three levels" above from?
You mean 2 levels above (18 in the case of the vale), right, like standard bravery bonus - isn't that the proposed change to Reaper?

Bravery limits will no longer exist.
When you do elite (regardless of whatever level you are), you gain a +100% xp bonus.
(If you are silly enough to do a quest that awards 0 base xp, obviously the bonus cannot apply, but otherwise the bonus will apply.)

Reaper xp penalties are now equal to elite xp penalties.


Level of quest vs level of highest character in quest: (Party) Compare the quest's equivalent level* to the level of the highest-level character to have entered the quest (even if they left after entering!). If that character's level is...
...below, equal to, or +1 level above the quest's level*, there is no adjustment.
...+2, there's a -10% penalty.
...+3 = -25%
...+4 = -50%
...+5 = -75%
...+6 = -99%
...+7 or higher there is no XP regardless of any bonuses.
This over-level penalty does not apply to epic quests.

: * For purposes of determining equivalent level of a quest for XP penalty, take the base ("Normal") level of the quest and adjust as follows...
Casual subtracts -2 (to a minimum adjusted Lvl 1)
Normal = basic quest level; Solo difficulty also.
Hard adds +1
Elite adds +2
Note: Bravery Bonus does not use these modifiers! BB is determined based solely off the "Normal" level of the quest!



A toon that is one level above elite difficulty (the actual difficulty adjusted level of the quest, not the base level of the dungeon) will not receive any penalties to reaper xp.

My example to help see better:
Rainbow in the Dark (which I quote the test server 1nd and 2nd run xp values on the xp thread) is base level 16, adjusted level 18.
That means that a toon can be level 19 and still gain full reaper xp.


This is a HUGE change for reaper 1 leveling up.
In my test server run, I used a poor build, with poor equipment, along with 5 gold seal hires (hey its a free money world so why not).
Death was very rare and happened due to zerging into a reaper or being swarmed by fire elementals.
Otherwise my hires and toon did fine.
Obviously, I know the quest very well, and my toon had some past lives, but still...


Part of my point is that if I can bring a bunch of hires into Reaper 1, we don't need Reaper 0.

[Pyed-Pyper]

When are people going to stop using this quote? The DM isn't trying to kill you on R1. If he was, there wouldn't be a need for R2-10. What, is the DM really trying to kill you on R4 and really, really, this time I mean it trying on R8?

They're just difficulty levels, and a game with this many build options, this many gearing options, and this narrow a level range requires more than just 4 difficulties.

BTW, if the DM wanted to kill you, he wouldn't have given you access to 800+ hitpoints within the reaper trees and a +25% hitpoint buff for melees. That DM is trying to keep you alive so you'll keep playing the game. You have 14 difficulty levels, balance between them and stop with this myth that reaper is some kind of unique and special game mode.

You want reaper to be unique and special? Remove heroic exp from reaper mode, set all reaper dungeons at level 30, and scale them up higher with skull levels. Set the reaper cores to only be effective in reaper dungeons. Have reaper equipment boosts only take effect in reaper mode. There, now you have a unique game mode as nothing you do inside reaper helps you outside of it, and in order to participate, you need to be at cap. Introduce reaper favor with reaper favor rewards to incent people to run every quest on as high a skull level as they can, rather than repeating the same easy quests over and over.

But that's not what the devs did. They made reaper cores impact non-reaper gameplay, they made reaper gear add boosts to non-reaper power levels, and they gave higher standard experience bonuses for running in reaper as you level up. This is absolutely fine as well, it's their game, but stop pretending that reaper is anything more than it is.

So much goodness here, it needs to be quoted again.


----

Any real challenge mode, especially one spurred by power bloat, won't include more power.

[CSQ]

I can see that re-entry might be more valuable for a solo player, but...

Quite frankly, I don't think that really fits the point of Reaper. If I wipe on a solo Reaper run, and I can't get back up via hireling, shrine, CBoJJ, etc., I just eat the loss. Does it make me salty? Sometimes, when it happens because of a BS champion, but that's kind of the goal of Reaper- actually having a challenge. I enjoy actually having to think while playing, and having an extra safety net kind of erodes that.

Everyone talks about Reaper as the "new elite", but elite still exists. If you can't run content on Reaper, the solution is to run it on elite. Nerfing Reaper doesn't make the game any better, it just means that the already often trivial Reaper difficulty (for low skulls) is even less meaningful.