Tome Upgrades costs

[scut207]

can we please normalize the cost of (supreme) ability upgrades?

Buying a +6 and later upgrading to a +7 then to +8 should NOT be 296% of the cost of buying a +8 tome out right.

maybe a 10% -15% penalty is far more inline.

I might buy one +8 for a character (~$37 on sale)>

But you could have made an additional $20 in the points store, from me, on a char that I have a +6 . I imagine I am not the only one would pony more money for incremental upgrades across characters if pricing were in line. It would cost you nothing.

[Chai]

Previous support should never be penalized.

[CSQ]

Yeah, Stat Tome upgrades are garbage price wise. I want to say there was an AP tome +1 to +2 upgrade that was actually the same price as buying +2 after factoring in the +1 tome, but that was a limited time item in the store, since +2 AP tomes (can't remember if racial or universal enhancement- pretty sure it was racial, but my memory is garbage and I can't log in to check right now). Having upgrade tomes be set to reasonable prices would be nice, especially for veterans who bought +6/7 when they were the "max" upgrade tome and now need to fork out almost for a whole tome's worth to upgrade.

When I upgraded my main from +5/6 (can't remember which) to +8, I just bought the +8 outright. It was on sale cheaper than the +8 upgrade tomes.

[scut207]

Previous support should never be penalized.

So much this. It make me bitter about the company. I love a lot about the game but decisions like this make me less likely to introduce new people.

[Iriale]

Previous support should never be penalized.
True. But SSG does not have much respect for its customers ...

[SpartanKiller13]

I have a +6 supreme tome, I'm waiting for +10's to come out before I'll consider buying again. That or like a 75% off sale, I'd consider that.

I can't justify straight buying a +8 tome (since I have a +6) and upgrade tomes are a joke. The only way I'd be ok with the upgrade prices is if it gave your previous tome back (to use on another character). Like if I got and used a 6-7 tome I'd have +7 supreme on my main and a +6 to use on an alt.

[SiliconScout]

Previous support should never be penalized.Agreed, their pricing model has annoyed me so much that I simply refuse to purchase stat tomes AT ALL from the store. My main has all +5's I think now, might have 1 +4 but the +2 to whatever I am doing is NOT at all worth the price, not when I know that when the +10 tome's come out they are going to be predator priced as well.

I find it hard to believe that they sell many upgrade tomes that aren't +7-+8 tomes any longer. Sure if you want to keep this pricing to latch onto the whales and the "gotta have its" out there but drop the other upgrade tomes to be far more reasonably priced and I think they might realise more sales.

[peng]

A tome and its upgrade should cost the same or a little more than it's equivalent (eg a +5 tome and +5-6 upgr together should cost no more than 15% above the cost of a +6 tome).

2 consecutive upgrade tomes should cost less than what they upgrade to (eg a +5-6 upgr and +6-7 upgr should cost less than a +7 tome).

These are very far from the current situation.

[BigErkyKid]

It makes a lot of sense.

What is the targeted market for those upgrades? Players with existing tomes.

Whether you bought it in a different era, or it dropped for you (yea right), the upgrades are specially designed to entice you. Is it “fair” , in the sense that newer players or first time buyers get a cheaper total price for a +8? Who cares! If you bought a time in the past, you are already a captive audience.

Quick question: are we still believing the fantasy that there top times can be obtained in game with a reasonable investment? I bet that the vast majority of tomes used in the game right now are bought.

[Chai]

It makes a lot of sense.

What is the targeted market for those upgrades? Players with existing tomes.

Whether you bought it in a different era, or it dropped for you (yea right), the upgrades are specially designed to entice you. Is it “fair” , in the sense that newer players or first time buyers get a cheaper total price for a +8? Who cares! If you bought a time in the past, you are already a captive audience.

Quick question: are we still believing the fantasy that there top times can be obtained in game with a reasonable investment? I bet that the vast majority of tomes used in the game right now are bought.

When the time versus money argument was used to justify this monetization method by dismissing how players differed in what they deemed "reasonable time investment" this opened the door to turn up the degree of time investment needed. When the second wave hit, those who didnt feel the first wave was such a big deal now observed how ramping the time up by large degree affects them as well. Tome pricing is a good example of this, as is the observation of back loading the most recent reincarnation system. Also of note: In order to even shoehorn +8 tomes into the current mix they needed to change the rules on which levels each increment kicks in. The old system would have required a level 31 character to increment up to +8.

The absurdity has already reached a point where the negative impact escapes no one, even those who lobbied for this hand over fist in the past - though there are still some who try to deny its full impact (who attempted to deny it would have any negative impact at all previously).

The 2 main questions in this scheme that needs to be answered now is:
1. What is the max amount big spenders who are completely hooked by the sunk cost fallacy willing to pay?
2. How often are they willing to pay it?

Think the second wave is absurd? Wait til that third wave comes down. :p

[thedip]

I would love to upgrade my +5 tomes to +6, but I can't justify the upgrade costs given the minimal effect it will actually have on my characters' stats. If the the upgrades were cheaper, I would definitely buy several - as it is I will remain a dolphin.

[pjw]

/signed

They did the right thing with racial AP upgrade tome. I don't mind if its 10-20% more expensive, but the way it is now is just usurious. Same goes for Learning tomes.

[BigErkyKid]

When the time versus money argument was used to justify this monetization method by dismissing how players differed in what they deemed "reasonable time investment" this opened the door to turn up the degree of time investment needed. When the second wave hit, those who didnt feel the first wave was such a big deal now observed how ramping the time up by large degree affects them as well. Tome pricing is a good example of this, as is the observation of back loading the most recent reincarnation system. Also of note: In order to even shoehorn +8 tomes into the current mix they needed to change the rules on which levels each increment kicks in. The old system would have required a level 31 character to increment up to +8.

The absurdity has already reached a point where the negative impact escapes no one, even those who lobbied for this hand over fist in the past - though there are still some who try to deny its full impact (who attempted to deny it would have any negative impact at all previously).

The 2 main questions in this scheme that needs to be answered now is:
1. What is the max amount big spenders who are completely hooked by the sunk cost fallacy willing to pay?
2. How often are they willing to pay it?

Think the second wave is absurd? Wait til that third wave comes down. :p

Anyone with a decent income and limited playtime is, being frank, better off paying and enjoying the game at their own pace than playing the grindy annoying version; I consider this a fact.

I think most players have reached this conclusion, since most people I know use tomes of learning, buy their tomes in the store, use XP potions, re roll now and then, have been used cakes here and there, and respecced with some

Microtransactions are, by construction, a sneaky way to get your money. Instead of asking, up front, for whatever amount it would take to play a fun game, designed and calibrated around the best experience, they break it into pieces and sell them back to you. It is practically impossible to know how much it would take to play the game in a fun way without having put a lot of time into it already.

Obviously, they are exploiting rush / in the heat of the moment decisions, sunk cost fallacies, emotional investments, and so on.

The case of tomes is pretty bad (selling straight power), and the updates can only be understood in the terms that you put it (once everyone has a tome, turn it to 11). Once you are in that model, the current pricing for upgrades makes a lot of sense. My recommendation would be to think very hard before you buy a tome. Do you really need +1 to some modifier?

[SiliconScout]

Yeah this was me. I saw the price and laughed, and laughed and laughed. I honestly thought it was a joke / misprint when I first saw them.

Right now I am basically a+2 modifier behind the max tomes, what am I giving up.

+2 damage: At the level that we get that +2 it really REALLY doesn't matter


+2 DC: Same thing, I don't have any more or less difficulty landing spells with my main. It would appear to also be a non-issue


+2 HP/ level: so at cap that's 60 HP if I had a Druid running a Bear Build in Undying sentinel I could in theory turn this into 87 HP or so, but it's a bad build. Nice to have but rarely do I get dropped below 100 HP w/o going down at those levels.


+2 to skills:VERY rarely would this matter. I can't remember the last time I needed just 1 or 2 points more to hit a DC. If it's something like a trap box I don't have any issues at all when running a trapper build so it's more useful in those cross class skills. it might be useful for UMD on say a Barb build but, again, not the end all and be all by any stretch at the level that those bonuses kick in (level 19+)


+2 to saves: At the levels these kick in my saves are in either the "I only fail on a 1" or the "I need a lot more than +2 to count on it" generally. There are times when a +2 would be nice but again at these levels it's not worth the DP.


+2 AC: HA! ... hahahahahahaaa ... oh geez ... that was funny.


Realistically the HP is probably the biggest draw but again in epics if I go down to DPS I usually have -150 or more HP and very, very rarely sit around unconscious waiting to stabilize so for the twice a month or so that it might be helpful it's not worth it at all.

[SpartanKiller13]

Yeah this was me. I saw the price and laughed, and laughed and laughed. I honestly thought it was a joke / misprint when I first saw them.

+2 DC: Same thing, I don't have any more or less difficulty landing spells with my main. It would appear to also be a non-issue.

I'd say this one is actually the only "important" one once you get past HP. +2 DC's is reasonably noticeable because they're still on the D20 part of DDO, so it can take you from 90% to no-fail, or 40% to 50% (a significant jump in effectiveness).

And if you're already no-fail, it can give you 4 AP back, or two twists/ED picks, or two sentient slots etc :)

[scut207]

I'd say this one is actually the only "important" one once you get past HP. +2 DC's is reasonably noticeable because they're still on the D20 part of DDO, so it can take you from 90% to no-fail, or 40% to 50% (a significant jump in effectiveness).

And if you're already no-fail, it can give you 4 AP back, or two twists/ED picks, or two sentient slots etc :)

And I think the thing that needs to be highlighted more to the devs/store owner, is that people would probably spend *more* money incrementally if the costs were more consistent in what is delivered.

Right now a lot of people look at the price and "no thanks." That's a loss of potential income.

[SpartanKiller13]

And I think the thing that needs to be highlighted more to the devs/store owner, is that people would probably spend *more* money incrementally if the costs were more consistent in what is delivered.

Right now a lot of people look at the price and "no thanks." That's a loss of potential income.

For sure :) I had 4k sitting around from VIP free points the other day, I'd happily have spent them on an upgrade tome or two if it was reasonably priced. Instead I got more shared bank and slayer pots, so I guess that's fine lol.

[SiliconScout]

I'd say this one is actually the only "important" one once you get past HP. +2 DC's is reasonably noticeable because they're still on the D20 part of DDO, so it can take you from 90% to no-fail, or 40% to 50% (a significant jump in effectiveness).

And if you're already no-fail, it can give you 4 AP back, or two twists/ED picks, or two sentient slots etc :)In my case, and I fully recognise it won't be universal, it would be 4 AP back which honestly wouldn't be liikely to end up in anything I am noticing.

For me, on my main, the only thing I might notice is the HP but that would be infrequent at best. So in the end, for me, the upgrades are useful and worth a price but nowhere near the price they are listed for. If I wanted to buy it I'd be going straight to the +8's. If the pricing was more reasonable though I'd probably upgrade my +5's to +6's.

[Chai]

And I think the thing that needs to be highlighted more to the devs/store owner, is that people would probably spend *more* money incrementally if the costs were more consistent in what is delivered.

Right now a lot of people look at the price and "no thanks." That's a loss of potential income.

Right.

People skip 2-3 iterations of tomes rather than buy in each time.

With all of the stat consolidation how many people are putting the favor reward +5 on their con and buying a +8 for their main build stat, who might get a supreme +8 if the upgrade pricing was more fair?

[Maldorin]

True. But SSG does not have much respect for its customers ...

Been that way as far back as I can remember. Carrying on the proud tradition of Turbine.

[SpartanKiller13]

In my case, and I fully recognise it won't be universal, it would be 4 AP back which honestly wouldn't be likely to end up in anything I am noticing.

For me, on my main, the only thing I might notice is the HP but that would be infrequent at best. So in the end, for me, the upgrades are useful and worth a price but nowhere near the price they are listed for. If I wanted to buy it I'd be going straight to the +8's. If the pricing was more reasonable though I'd probably upgrade my +5's to +6's.

Couldn't take that as twists/sentient/ED stuff and keep the AP spent?

I have a +6 supreme, so if I could get 6-7 and 7-8 for less than straight buying an 8 I'd definitely consider it.

[SiliconScout]

Couldn't take that as twists/sentient/ED stuff and keep the AP spent?

I have a +6 supreme, so if I could get 6-7 and 7-8 for less than straight buying an 8 I'd definitely consider it. even if both were slightly more than it I could see me considering something like that. Upgrade one month and then again a couple weeks later or on the next pay cheques, whatever. But when it is almost the same money to upgrade 1 point as it is to buy any tome it's just not worth it.

In my case looking at supreme 8's I won't bother, maybe when they are 10's or 12's I might jump on that but until then I will just take what I can get from drops and the Auctions because at the current pricing it is 100% not worth it, and it's influenced me to the point where I am not willing to drop ANY cash until I am 100% certain that I won't be interested in buying them again.