Crazy DC requirements

[krimsonrane]

So, i'm about 3 lives from completionist. Just capped my bard life and as usual I gear up with the best non raid gear available just to see the class potential. Charisma is well represented in RL gear. I tried a tiefling life and went mainly swash/warchanter with enough spellsinger to get inspiration melody.

I like bards. i played one once before with the same disappointments at cap. Except for fascinate none of his DC's as a swash/LD ED can be made high enough for no fail elite 34 quests. Hell, i can't even get a dancing ball to hold one creature on LE. No CC works at level 34. Low blow, trip, freeze, sonics, w/e. I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.
On level 33 he's a beast. one level higher and he's a wannabe dodge fighter with no dependable CC whatsoever.

I could break down my gear set but there's no reason to do so. i'm satisfied that I did the best I could which is considerable.
Because of that I'm pretty sure bard won't be my final build.

PS:
beyond heroics I really could not find any synergy with bard and tiefling other than a 20 starting charisma. The racial enhancements are weak and weaker. I don't know why the devs think chump change fire damage is so awesome.

[MaeveTuohy]

So, i'm about 3 lives from completionist. Just capped my bard life and as usual I gear up with the best non raid gear available just to see the class potential. Charisma is well represented in RL gear. I tried a tiefling life and went mainly swash/warchanter with enough spellsinger to get inspiration melody.

I like bards. i played one once before with the same disappointments at cap. Except for fascinate none of his DC's as a swash/LD ED can be made high enough for no fail elite 34 quests. Hell, i can't even get a dancing ball to hold one creature on LE. No CC works at level 34. Low blow, trip, freeze, sonics, w/e. I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.
On level 33 he's a beast. one level higher and he's a wannabe dodge fighter with no CC whatsoever.

I could break down my gear set but there's no reason to do so. i'm satisfied that I did the best I could which is considerable.
Because of that I'm pretty sure bard won't be my final build.

PS:
beyond heroics I really could not find any synergy with bard and tiefling other than a 20 starting charisma. The racial enhancements are weak and weaker. I don't know why the devs think chump change fire damage is so awesome.

I am running a fire-specced Tiefling sorc at the moment and it still isn't worth dipping into the Tielfing tree.

[krimsonrane]

I am running a fire-specced Tiefling sorc at the moment and it still isn't worth dipping into the Tielfing tree.

IKR!

A friend of mine plays a sorc and said the same. it's a useless tree. Which means the only reason to run tieflings are if you like horns. The best they could probably do is add a little fire damage to a 2hw fighter build. Even then you're better off going bladeforged.

[Alled78]

So, i'm about 3 lives from completionist. Just capped my bard life and as usual I gear up with the best non raid gear available just to see the class potential. Charisma is well represented in RL gear. I tried a tiefling life and went mainly swash/warchanter with enough spellsinger to get inspiration melody.

I like bards. i played one once before with the same disappointments at cap. Except for fascinate none of his DC's as a swash/LD ED can be made high enough for no fail elite 34 quests. Hell, i can't even get a dancing ball to hold one creature on LE. No CC works at level 34. Low blow, trip, freeze, sonics, w/e. I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.
On level 33 he's a beast. one level higher and he's a wannabe dodge fighter with no dependable CC whatsoever.

I could break down my gear set but there's no reason to do so. i'm satisfied that I did the best I could which is considerable.
Because of that I'm pretty sure bard won't be my final build.

PS:
beyond heroics I really could not find any synergy with bard and tiefling other than a 20 starting charisma. The racial enhancements are weak and weaker. I don't know why the devs think chump change fire damage is so awesome.


Probably u are doing something wrong... Bards are doing very well after sharn.

[Eryhn]

78 charisma

havent played a capped bard in a while but your issue lies right here and maybe elsewhere too...

for comparison:



Charisma
Start: 20
Level Ups: 7
Tome: 8
Enhancement Bonus: 17
Insightful Bonus: 9
Exceptional Bonus: 1
Quality Bonus: 4
Profane Bonus: 2
Artifact Bonus: 2
Completionist: 2
Racial Completionist: 2
Racial Past Lifes: 2
Angelic Presence 2
Sentient Weapon Filigree: 5
Reaper Bonus on Helm: 2
Racial Enhancements: 2
Aov Enhancements: 2
AoV Capstone: 4
Beacon of Hope Enhancements: 1
Falconry Enhancements: 1
Reaper: 5
Epic Destiny: 6
Ship Buffs: 2
Yugo Potions: 2
Remnant Potions: 2
Total Charisma: 112



https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/498083-2-Different-FVS-20-DC-Builds-Wisdom-vs-Charisma?p=6118253&viewfull=1#post6118253

yeah that's from a fvs. yeah that's with like all the bling. but main stat building is pretty generic accross classes, even if you subtract out a bunch of stuff like max tome/reaper/remnant/racial hitting high 80s or maybe low 90s ain't that hard anymore nowadays?

did you take enchant/evoc feats/twists and use spellfocus items and stacking spellfocus items?
quality stat and quality dc?

trip is STR and combat mastery/vertigo based btw ...

low blow and coup de grace benefit of perform/ins perform/stacking cha skill items ...

posting your actual individual DCs and stat/DC relevant gear might help to zero in on areas you could improved with gear and or enhancements/feat adjustments ...


I dont think it is wrong per default that on a possibly a bit randomly geared swash build you dont hit elite at cap spell dcs automatically - at the same time pretty sure this can be fixed for elite with some tinkering

[BoBoDaClown]

Seems confused. LD Swashie throwing balls. Doesn't seem like a good synergy.

You need a boost to your ice DC from either KTA or DP.

These numbers should be strong enough to get you most mobs. A ~ 116 ice DC lands on everything other than goblins - they can save often. Tested up to R10 out of Sharn. Up to R8 Sharn. There's heaps of room for improvement above that mark. Dire charge and low blow/coup are 100%..

See casters landing their spells too, so it is possible from that side, and bards are capable of high spell DCs, probably not at the same time as melee though.

[FlavoredSoul]

So, i'm about 3 lives from completionist. Just capped my bard life and as usual I gear up with the best non raid gear available just to see the class potential. Charisma is well represented in RL gear. I tried a tiefling life and went mainly swash/warchanter with enough spellsinger to get inspiration melody.

I like bards. i played one once before with the same disappointments at cap. Except for fascinate none of his DC's as a swash/LD ED can be made high enough for no fail elite 34 quests. Hell, i can't even get a dancing ball to hold one creature on LE. No CC works at level 34. Low blow, trip, freeze, sonics, w/e. I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.
On level 33 he's a beast. one level higher and he's a wannabe dodge fighter with no dependable CC whatsoever.

I could break down my gear set but there's no reason to do so. i'm satisfied that I did the best I could which is considerable.
Because of that I'm pretty sure bard won't be my final build.

PS:
beyond heroics I really could not find any synergy with bard and tiefling other than a 20 starting charisma. The racial enhancements are weak and weaker. I don't know why the devs think chump change fire damage is so awesome.

If you only have 78 charisma then you clearly do not have "best non raid gear" in terms of DC casting. of course you're not going to land CC spells on a melee build with nearly zero investment.

90+ cha on a caster is bare minimum for cha based DC casting, probably need more since you likely aren't fully speced with enchant DC bonuses since you're a melee build.

Either post your gear list or your claims will be ignored.

[krimsonrane]

havent played a capped bard in a while but your issue lies right here and maybe elsewhere too...

for comparison:



https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/498083-2-Different-FVS-20-DC-Builds-Wisdom-vs-Charisma?p=6118253&viewfull=1#post6118253

yeah that's from a fvs. yeah that's with like all the bling. but main stat building is pretty generic accross classes, even if you subtract out a bunch of stuff like max tome/reaper/remnant/racial hitting high 80s or maybe low 90s ain't that hard anymore nowadays?

did you take enchant/evoc feats/twists and use spellfocus items and stacking spellfocus items?
quality stat and quality dc?

trip is STR and combat mastery/vertigo based btw ...

low blow and coup de grace benefit of perform/ins perform/stacking cha skill items ...

posting your actual individual DCs and stat/DC relevant gear might help to zero in on areas you could improved with gear and or enhancements/feat adjustments ...


I dont think it is wrong per default that on a possibly a bit randomly geared swash build you dont hit elite at cap spell dcs automatically - at the same time pretty sure this can be fixed for elite with some tinkering

No. I'm shy 3 points to my dc. I took the single weapon fighting line. It was well worth it. At least in level 33 quests. I specifically wanted a LD SWF bard with CC capabilities. But apparently it's an all or nothing equation.

[krimsonrane]

If you only have 78 charisma then you clearly do not have "best non raid gear" in terms of DC casting. of course you're not going to land CC spells on a melee build with nearly zero investment.

90+ cha on a caster is bare minimum for cha based DC casting, probably need more since you likely aren't fully speced with enchant DC bonuses since you're a melee build.

Either post your gear list or your claims will be ignored.

What non raid bard gear (not augments) will get you a higher charisma than Legendary Gauntlets of Innate Arcanum and Legendary Softsole Slippers? I'll wait.

I'm only missing two things. 3 points of dc in feats and a +8 charisma tome. I have +6

zero investment? please.

"Either post your gear list or your claims will be ignored."
How about I just ignore you.

[krimsonrane]

Seems confused. LD Swashie throwing balls. Doesn't seem like a good synergy.

You need a boost to your ice DC from either KTA or DP.

These numbers should be strong enough to get you most mobs. A ~ 116 ice DC lands on everything other than goblins - they can save often. Tested up to R10 out of Sharn. Up to R8 Sharn. There's heaps of room for improvement above that mark. Dire charge and low blow/coup are 100%..

See casters landing their spells too, so it is possible from that side, and bards are capable of high spell DCs, probably not at the same time as melee though.

Swash/LD ball thrower was the plan. As i've stated the plan didn't work at level 34.
I'll play it as is for a week or two and then move on to the next life.

116 DFC? good lord. Like i said. crazy DC requirements.

[Dragavon]

I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.


My tiefling bard with no raid gear has 102 cha, higher in reaper, and does well enough.

[BigErkyKid]

Seems confused. LD Swashie throwing balls. Doesn't seem like a good synergy.

You need a boost to your ice DC from either KTA or DP.

These numbers should be strong enough to get you most mobs. A ~ 116 ice DC lands on everything other than goblins - they can save often. Tested up to R10 out of Sharn. Up to R8 Sharn. There's heaps of room for improvement above that mark. Dire charge and low blow/coup are 100%..

See casters landing their spells too, so it is possible from that side, and bards are capable of high spell DCs, probably not at the same time as melee though.

I think the problem here is expecting to play a hybrid, such as that old count of monte build, when DDO has stopped supporting these kind of builds.

Back in 2013-2014-2015, we saw a whole bunch of BYOH successful hybrid builds. Bards that could cast balls and melee, Shoikan FVS melee casting hybrids, arties combining spell and martial DPS.

Fast forward to 2019 and, with reaper, it is the time of massive specialization.

I understand the disapointment, but OP just embrace the new mentality or drop to lower difficulties. There isn't a real alternative.

[jskinner937]

Swash/LD ball thrower was the plan. As i've stated the plan didn't work at level 34.
I'll play it as is for a week or two and then move on to the next life.

116 DFC? good lord. Like i said. crazy DC requirements.

I assure you its not very hard to hit a DC of 110-120 and CHA of 100-110 if you try. Look at set bonuses, maximize your enhancements and ED twists, there is festive and exceptional augments, Yugo pots, remnant pots, buffs, fillagrees for weapons and minor artifacts, etc. If you want to have a reliable DC, you must maximize from every resource possible.

[SpartanKiller13]

I think the problem here is expecting to play a hybrid, such as that old count of monte build, when DDO has stopped supporting these kind of builds.

Back in 2013-2014-2015, we saw a whole bunch of BYOH successful hybrid builds. Bards that could cast balls and melee, Shoikan FVS melee casting hybrids, arties combining spell and martial DPS.

Fast forward to 2019 and, with reaper, it is the time of massive specialization.

I understand the disapointment, but OP just embrace the new mentality or drop to lower difficulties. There isn't a real alternative.

I'm having a ton of fun with an Int-max DG Silvanus maul build? I'm sure with more PL's/gear etc it'd be even better than mine is, but I've had no-fail DC's with Color Spray from 15-20 so far in low Reaper (including Sharn). I'm sure 20-28 will be slower (since I basically don't have low-mid epic gear), but 29+ I'd expect to pick back up again?

I feel like I finally understand Tilomere about how bringing your own CC on a melee is nuts.

------

Towards the OP, I think your issue is your relatively low stat and probably DC bonuses. 70+ in a stat is quite doable on a first life toon, it's not going to cut it for endgame. Your toon that's nearly completionist (and probably has tomes, sentients etc) should be a bit higher IMO.

[SerPounce]

You have to go more or less "all in" to make spell DCs work. That doesn't mean you need literally every bonus that it's possible to get, but you do have to make spell DCs your #1 priority. It's very difficult to make a build that does both good martial (melee/ranged weapons) DPS and has good spell DCs because they both require significant investments. Tactics are typically a much easier path for DPS builds to get some CC as the DCs can be viable with less investment.

[edit] This applies primarily to cap play (legendary). It's much easier to get spell DCs to work leveling.

[Amorais]

There I was, thinking 30 was high...

You guys are in a totally different league :D

[Eryhn]

I think the problem here is expecting to play a hybrid, such as that old count of monte build, when DDO has stopped supporting these kind of builds.



no it is not the problem. depending on build hybrid still works fine, maybe a bit tougher in sharn elite but for all other elite content with the gear inflation and some care in enhances it can be achieved relatively easily even without raid gear, reaper helmets, racial stat points and other high investment bling.

slapping on one +19 and one ins +9 and thinking that's it doesn't cut it though and that's fine as is.

sacrificing one feat for enchant focus and twisting in an extra +3 alone would help with balls.
puzzling in enchant ins enchant higher than C crafted would too, as would some quality and profane bonuses in general.

admittedly OP is double gimped as LD offers no main stat and as of now fatesinger sucks, this will improve with the ED pass by and large and I guess serves as a point why in general that will be a good thing. (while its broken in various ways atm, he *could* get CHA and crit bonus in crusader, too though ...)



116 DFC? good lord. Like i said. crazy DC requirements.

he said 116 works for r8-10 not is required for elite. did you want pointers to make it work or just rant?


anyways, many folks chimed in on various not too tedious options available ...

*shrug* I'm outa here...

[SirValentine]

You have to go more or less "all in" to make spell DCs work.


For high-skulls, sure. But for Elite? Shouldn't DC requirements be, what, about 15 points lower? But of course, OP didn't actually tell us what his DCs are. I'm betting he's not even in the 90s, which I suspect would be reachable on a hybrid Bard build.

Does OP have an Equipment DC bonus? Insightful DC? Profane? Embolden feat? Legendary Feat for +4? School Specialist twist for +3? DC-boosting filigree sets? He's already cut severely into his spell DCs by running in LD. Of course he can't skip tons of stuff and still get Elite-workable DCs. If you dump spellcasting DCs, your spellcasting DCs shouldn't work in Elite.



It's very difficult to make a build that does both good martial (melee/ranged weapons) DPS and has good spell DCs because they both require significant investments.


How good is good, and for what content/difficulty? OP said Elite, didn't tell us which content or mobs. Or how happy he is or isn't with his DPS, for that matter.

[FlavoredSoul]

Having a casting stat that would've been acceptable pre ravenloft was new, having no DC support from epic destinies and not even being a primary caster spec enhancement wise is not going to get you usable DCs in endgame content. Just a +19 cha and +9 insightful cha item are not enough to hit endgame elite DCs, you need quality, profane Cha, enchantment/insightful/artifact/quality enchant DCs at the very least, you should also get some more DCs/Cha from filigree & caster sharn set bonus.

I doubt you even have any enchant DC gear on, maybe a +7 or 8 enhancement bonus and maybe a insightful item at most, together with you extremely low cha it's a wonder why you'd expect your CC to hit anything at all.

Please tell us your discoball DCs, I doubt it's even over 90.

[BoBoDaClown]

I specifically wanted a LD SWF bard with CC capabilities. But apparently it's an all or nothing equation.

You can. Look at the synergies within the trees. Warchanter offers melee CC, so get your two melee trees working together.



Swash/LD ball thrower was the plan. As i've stated the plan didn't work at level 34.
I'll play it as is for a week or two and then move on to the next life.

116 DFC? good lord. Like i said. crazy DC requirements.

Not really. It's just a number. A number that is missing a lot of bonuses, so should be somewhat within reach, and that lands on R8+, so on Elite ~100 should work. However, you do need to invest in these numbers.


I think the problem here is expecting to play a hybrid, such as that old count of monte build, when DDO has stopped supporting these kind of builds.

Back in 2013-2014-2015, we saw a whole bunch of BYOH successful hybrid builds. Bards that could cast balls and melee, Shoikan FVS melee casting hybrids, arties combining spell and martial DPS.

Fast forward to 2019 and, with reaper, it is the time of massive specialization.

I understand the disapointment, but OP just embrace the new mentality or drop to lower difficulties. There isn't a real alternative.

I think (from a Bard perspective), caster hybrids were always somewhat difficult; however, the game used to be so easy it was quite forgiving.

[krimsonrane]

My tiefling bard with no raid gear has 102 cha, higher in reaper, and does well enough.

102 charisma. I have no idea how that is even possible.

[krimsonrane]

I assure you its not very hard to hit a DC of 110-120 and CHA of 100-110 if you try. Look at set bonuses, maximize your enhancements and ED twists, there is festive and exceptional augments, Yugo pots, remnant pots, buffs, fillagrees for weapons and minor artifacts, etc. If you want to have a reliable DC, you must maximize from every resource possible.

That is way too much work for a passing bard life. I'll be something else in 2 weeks.

[krimsonrane]

You have to go more or less "all in" to make spell DCs work. That doesn't mean you need literally every bonus that it's possible to get, but you do have to make spell DCs your #1 priority. It's very difficult to make a build that does both good martial (melee/ranged weapons) DPS and has good spell DCs because they both require significant investments. Tactics are typically a much easier path for DPS builds to get some CC as the DCs can be viable with less investment.

[edit] This applies primarily to cap play (legendary). It's much easier to get spell DCs to work leveling.

Yea. I found that out on a few caster lives. all or nothing. It's a decent build for every level but 34. 33 out of 34 isn't bad.

[krimsonrane]

If you only have 78 charisma then you clearly do not have "best non raid gear" in terms of DC casting. of course you're not going to land CC spells on a melee build with nearly zero investment.

90+ cha on a caster is bare minimum for cha based DC casting, probably need more since you likely aren't fully speced with enchant DC bonuses since you're a melee build.

Either post your gear list or your claims will be ignored.

I'm fully specced for enchantment dc's. focus, insightful focus, spell pen, insightful spell pen.
If there was an equivalent item for enchantment as there is for evocation in the RL cloak I might be better off.

[krimsonrane]

havent played a capped bard in a while but your issue lies right here and maybe elsewhere too...

for comparison:



https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/498083-2-Different-FVS-20-DC-Builds-Wisdom-vs-Charisma?p=6118253&viewfull=1#post6118253

yeah that's from a fvs. yeah that's with like all the bling. but main stat building is pretty generic accross classes, even if you subtract out a bunch of stuff like max tome/reaper/remnant/racial hitting high 80s or maybe low 90s ain't that hard anymore nowadays?

did you take enchant/evoc feats/twists and use spellfocus items and stacking spellfocus items?
quality stat and quality dc?

trip is STR and combat mastery/vertigo based btw ...

low blow and coup de grace benefit of perform/ins perform/stacking cha skill items ...

posting your actual individual DCs and stat/DC relevant gear might help to zero in on areas you could improved with gear and or enhancements/feat adjustments ...


I dont think it is wrong per default that on a possibly a bit randomly geared swash build you dont hit elite at cap spell dcs automatically - at the same time pretty sure this can be fixed for elite with some tinkering

I'll skip posting stats and gear. i won't be a bard in a week or so. So that won't help me now.

[BigErkyKid]

no it is not the problem. depending on build hybrid still works fine, [...]he said 116 works for r8-10 not is required for elite..

Yeah, sorry, I meant for mid to high skulls end game.



I think (from a Bard perspective), caster hybrids were always somewhat difficult; however, the game used to be so easy it was quite forgiving.

At one point, yes. But I am thinking right before the explosion of melee power + crit multiplier bonuses, when soloing EEs was posted as an achievement. Back then the game was still somehow hard, and building for self sufficiency (BYOH, BObuffs, etc.) often was what made characters fun and powerful.

I remember when Shoikan released his battle FVS, and it combined successfully casting and melee. Arguably, it became easier over time because of power creep, right until reaper was released. A melee casting hybrid bard has no role at all in challenging reaper (end game quests, highish skulls).

[BoBoDaClown]

At one point, yes. But I am thinking right before the explosion of melee power + crit multiplier bonuses, when soloing EEs was posted as an achievement. Back then the game was still somehow hard, and building for self sufficiency (BYOH, BObuffs, etc.) often was what made characters fun and powerful.


Probably just me. When playing a CC Caster/Healer bard, I could never feel comfortable sacrificing my DCs/Spell Pen/Healing (guess, I wasn't a 'hybrid' type).

I remember the Bard build you are referencing (Monte) - it took a hit on DC and spell pen (maybe healing as well, I can't remember). I guess different playstyles - I liked my caster bards being as close to 100% I could get, without silly sacrifices.

But each to their own. The point stands - such a build was viable/popular, now it isn't. Personally, I think due to increasing difficulty (which on the whole, is a good thing, but brings some negatives).

[askrj1]

I'll skip posting stats and gear. i won't be a bard in a week or so. So that won't help me now.

I don't see the point of complaining that your build isn't working if you're not intending to find out what's wrong and go through with it. Maybe because I don't TR every 2-3 weeks but I try to make the effort to squueze the most out of my builds. Nothing is particularly wrong with the legendary DCs; something is definitely wrong in how you think you're not reaching them.

[BigErkyKid]

Probably just me. When playing a CC Caster/Healer bard, I could never feel comfortable sacrificing my DCs/Spell Pen/Healing (guess, I wasn't a 'hybrid' type).

I remember the Bard build you are referencing (Monte) - it took a hit on DC and spell pen (maybe healing as well, I can't remember). I guess different playstyles - I liked my caster bards being as close to 100% I could get, without silly sacrifices.

But each to their own. The point stands - such a build was viable/popular, now it isn't. Personally, I think due to increasing difficulty (which on the whole, is a good thing, but brings some negatives).

We agree 100%. I am just pointing out that OP might be frustrated because he thinks of DDO in terms of what was viable and fun in that era, which is long gone and meta has shifted completely.

[jskinner937]

I don't see the point of complaining that your build isn't working if you're not intending to find out what's wrong and go through with it. Maybe because I don't TR every 2-3 weeks but I try to make the effort to squueze the most out of my builds. Nothing is particularly wrong with the legendary DCs; something is definitely wrong in how you think you're not reaching them.

Yeah and I see no point in complaining if your intention was only a past life. DC Casting requires farming the gear, fillagrees, augments, etc. On top of a weak DC Build, you have put zero thought into a DC toon and just thought you would make a good life out of it. If you wanted just a past life out of it, you might consider a different route unless you already amassed a bunch of other PLs and gear prior. Any DC caster, including Bard is going to be rough life if you do not build it from the ground up. The forum is not a place to come and whine about how disappointing your temporary life is.

[Chai]

DC has been "all or nothing" for builds for quite some time now. With stats and DCs over 100, a 20 increment range is still building through ~80 points of "always fail" DC before getting to the parts where you have a chance of success.

[scipiojedi]

The forum is not a place to come and whine about how disappointing your temporary life is.

But where else can the OP do this? Doesn't he need a safe place to voice his complaints? I'm not arguing that his complaints are valid, just that he is feeling disappointed and sometimes you just need someone to listen to you, even if you're wrong. Sometimes people need to be listened to and not offered advice.

[SirValentine]

I'm fully specced for enchantment dc's.

I'm not sure why you're claiming this when you've said multiple other things that directly contradict it. Like


You're running in LD, right?
You didn't actually take the Spell Focus feats, right?
Your Cha is only 78 right?
You've said you're mainly a Swashbuckler build, right?

How is this "fully specced"?

Honestly, you don't even need to be "fully specced" in Elite the way you do in high-skull Reaper, but you're not even close.


I'll skip posting stats and gear.

Convenient.

[Iriale]

I think the problem here is expecting to play a hybrid, such as that old count of monte build, when DDO has stopped supporting these kind of builds.

Back in 2013-2014-2015, we saw a whole bunch of BYOH successful hybrid builds. Bards that could cast balls and melee, Shoikan FVS melee casting hybrids, arties combining spell and martial DPS.

Fast forward to 2019 and, with reaper, it is the time of massive specialization.

I understand the disapointment, but OP just embrace the new mentality or drop to lower difficulties. There isn't a real alternative.
This.

The problem that I see is that the hybrid builds actually are not supported. The only ones that currently receive some support are the druid hybrids. But I have the same problem with my artificer.

My artificer is not a rare build, nor complicated. It is a crossbow trapper, in light armor, which uses its spells as support. I do not see the meaning of renouncing the spells, because in such a case it is much better to play a crossbow rogue (much more damage and better defenses) I also do not see the sense of creating an artificer caster, artificer spells are too limited for that . I just want to play the whole class as it was designed in its beginnings and how it was designed in pnp: a specialist character that has a small magical support.

However, the devs have made this concept virtually unfeasible, at least in an alt. There is not a set that gives you bonunes to dc (it would be enough with only evocation) at the same time that it gives you bonunes that make you viable with your weapon. The breakdown that posters wrote here for fvs presupposes going in an exalted angel, something evidently unfeasible in an artifice. So three less than DC there for going in Shadowdancer. Resorting to otto + eye sets in filigrees means giving up a lot of weapon damage. The devs have not been able to create sets for hybrids where there is a mix of DC bonus evocation, spell damage and physical damage. In short, you start adding and adding and the lost bonuses add up to a huge difference.

To this I have to add that the toon is an alt and he does not have as many lives as my main. That implies, of course less than even (-2 int racials, -2 int racial complecionist, -2 int racial heroic, -1 evo DC sorc PL) I do not have a helm with reaper bonus in this toon (in fact, I've only got a helm of these, I do not do rerolls of chests)

It was a build that worked until not long ago. The fact that the devs have stopped supporting these builds is what has made it no longer work. Currently, it is much better to reroll to a rogue, just worry about physical damage, and have more damage and better defenses. The fact is that it would not be so difficult to make this build viable again. It only takes devs to create a set with mixed DC evocation and weapon damage, and to create a set of filigree adapted to this build (only DC evo, but with electric spellpower and ranged power bonuses) And it's because of the lack of support of the devs that these builds have virtually disappeared from the endgame, and now the only artificers that remain are either tanks, or crossbowmen focused on damage purely physical (the majority of these builds, multiclasses; pure artificer without spell support is way worse than pure rogue)

Something similar happens to op, although bards are in a better situation than the artifices. But let's see: a melee build with a punctual enchantement spells support. This does not go in exalted angel (-4 DC) This does not take a set of filigree otto + eye (-5 DC) This does not take a set of sharn (no set for bards, really) -5 DC. Just by having a hybrid build are already -14 DC, which is not little. And a lot of what poster put in that fvs breakdown is not reasonable to ask for, really. Racial complecionist is a stupid grind. Reaper helm depends on luck. Etc. I say that the bards are in a better situation than the artificers because they have a specific set of filigree (melony) that helps them with the DC, and it is possible to create a sentient weapon that helps something with the DCs without losing too much in the physical area. However, artificers do not have that luxury. The lack of sharn set for these builds and the fact that the EDs do not support the hybrids well (and with the pass of the EDs this is going to be even worse) is a problem shared by both

Even something that should be as simple as being able to add DC evocation, insightful evocation DC, quality dc evotacion, electric spell power + the weapon bonuses and standard defenses is impossible due to the current tetris gear. And believe me I've tried, but there's no way to fit all the bonuses because of the insane way in which gear team is currently designed.

We live in a time of the game where only the superspecialist builds work and are supported. Thats the reality. A hybrid can only have the possibility of functioning if it is your main with a lot of past lives. And even then, it will not work as well as a specialist.

And everything is for lack of foresight of the devs. No more no less.


----------

By the way, that ****es me off enough that in the threads where I complain that the alts are being killed by the excess of past lives I always get people saying that the first lifers are perfectly viable, but curiously in the build viability breakdowns never missing add the million of bonuses that give the past lives. It will be that the alts are not as viable as those people say xD.

[Iriale]

We agree 100%. I am just pointing out that OP might be frustrated because he thinks of DDO in terms of what was viable and fun in that era, which is long gone and meta has shifted completely.
Well, I do not agree. the game should support the hybrid builds, not just the superspecialists. Currently the game only supports either the physical bard or the spellsinger, but not the hybrid melee + enchanter which is actually the concept of bard in its origins, the bard that was taken from the pnp game. To say that it is not reasonable to expect that a classic concept of bard does not work is what seems irrational to me.

I find that the op does well to draw the attention of devs on this. They are neglecting part of the game. They are still in time to fix it. They should take into account the hybrids in the EDs. I have indicated it in the threads of the ED pass. They should take into account the hybrids in the gear design. But forgetting them is not reasonable.

[askrj1]

But where else can the OP do this? Doesn't he need a safe place to voice his complaints? I'm not arguing that his complaints are valid, just that he is feeling disappointed and sometimes you just need someone to listen to you, even if you're wrong. Sometimes people need to be listened to and not offered advice.

OP is free to be voicing his complaints, but when you do it expect to be ridiculed as much as how little thought and effort you have put into your play. If OP is fine with that he's free to continue. Not to say I know what his actual intention was.

[shores11]

So, i'm about 3 lives from completionist. Just capped my bard life and as usual I gear up with the best non raid gear available just to see the class potential. Charisma is well represented in RL gear. I tried a tiefling life and went mainly swash/warchanter with enough spellsinger to get inspiration melody.

I like bards. i played one once before with the same disappointments at cap. Except for fascinate none of his DC's as a swash/LD ED can be made high enough for no fail elite 34 quests. Hell, i can't even get a dancing ball to hold one creature on LE. No CC works at level 34. Low blow, trip, freeze, sonics, w/e. I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.
On level 33 he's a beast. one level higher and he's a wannabe dodge fighter with no dependable CC whatsoever.

I could break down my gear set but there's no reason to do so. i'm satisfied that I did the best I could which is considerable.
Because of that I'm pretty sure bard won't be my final build.

PS:
beyond heroics I really could not find any synergy with bard and tiefling other than a 20 starting charisma. The racial enhancements are weak and weaker. I don't know why the devs think chump change fire damage is so awesome.

I would have to disagree. I play a halfling bard that is Swashbuckler/Warchanter. He is mostly 100% support melee and can do a lot of damage to include frequent freezing in combat. I did not take the T5 Warchanter freeze but up through T4. I am enjoying him a lot.

[jskinner937]

Well, I do not agree. the game should support the hybrid builds, not just the superspecialists. Currently the game only supports either the physical bard or the spellsinger, but not the hybrid melee + enchanter which is actually the concept of bard in its origins, the bard that was taken from the pnp game. To say that it is not reasonable to expect that a classic concept of bard does not work is what seems irrational to me.

I find that the op does well to draw the attention of devs on this. They are neglecting part of the game. They are still in time to fix it. They should take into account the hybrids in the EDs. I have indicated it in the threads of the ED pass. They should take into account the hybrids in the gear design. But forgetting them is not reasonable.

And in PnP a bard was a weak melee. I do not see it any different in DDO than in PnP lore, except that they including swashbuckled prestige, which is really a home brew if I am not mistaken. No bard is going to go out and solo a fire breathing dragon with their rapiers or dagger and lute. No bard is going to match the wits of a powerful archemage or Lich. But they will party support and provide utility for the party and probably sing a good tune about it afterwards and likely take more credit than they deserve.

Maybe the OP inadvertently built the closest thing to PnP bard after all.

[ChadB123]

No bard is going to go out and solo a fire breathing dragon with their rapiers or dagger and lute.

No bard, you say?


https://youtu.be/oJMGG5mKFGo

[Iriale]

And in PnP a bard was a weak melee. I do not see it any different in DDO than in PnP lore, except that they including swashbuckled prestige, which is really a home brew if I am not mistaken. No bard is going to go out and solo a fire breathing dragon with their rapiers or dagger and lute. No bard is going to match the wits of a powerful archemage or Lich. But they will party support and provide utility for the party and probably sing a good tune about it afterwards and likely take more credit than they deserve.

Maybe the OP inadvertently built the closest thing to PnP bard after all.
in pnp bard is a good addition to the group, the master of nothing but useful for the contribution of its many varied resources that can contribute. The problem that we are discussing here is that this is not possible in the current DDO, because now only the super specialists are supported. You can focus on your physical abilities like the video they have put up and forget about your enchantments or you can go to pure spellsinger and be a toon of only magical support. But the builds that try to use the whole class (and remember that these builds are not something weird, have worked in DDO since always) now do not work.

It is not unreasonable to ask that the devs correct the path they have put into the game, prioritizing only the superspecialist builds and forgetting builds that are CLASSIC both in D&D and in PNP. The solution is easy - better support in gear and in the next ED pass take into account these builds. That they adapt at least one ED for these builds, it's not much to ask.

To me what seems stupid is that DDO is supporting a concept of artificer tank, something for which the class is not designed in its conception and however it does not support the CLASSIC build of trapper in light armor with small support of spells. for the love of God, I do not ask to do a damage like the sorcerer, but simply to have the DC enough for them to work! And it is impossible to have it if the devs do not create the proper itemization!


Maybe with the next update we will see sets to the sharn style for these builds. Maybe ... but it's not surprising that people are frustrated, because that will take months

[psykopeta]

Not crazy requirements, just on par with existing gear

78 cha is almost half of max current cha, just saying

It's ok not having everything existing for dc casting to build a hybrid (cause u will prefer other pieces for melee boosting) but only from your casting stat you're missing 35 dc, then add more dc you're prolly missing from other parts (ED, enhancements) then you're Obviously gonna fall

Soundbursting bard works wonders, and you getv helpless damage which allows you to reduce a bit of melee gear to achieve better dc and aprox the same dps, and can be used with EDF without targetting so you stun what you have in yiur face

I like it more than hold, and easier to get more twists and sorc lives help on dc

[Iriale]

Not crazy requirements, just on par with existing gear

78 cha is almost half of max current cha, just saying

It's ok not having everything existing for dc casting to build a hybrid (cause u will prefer other pieces for melee boosting) but only from your casting stat you're missing 35 dc, then add more dc you're prolly missing from other parts (ED, enhancements) then you're Obviously gonna fall

Soundbursting bard works wonders, and you getv helpless damage which allows you to reduce a bit of melee gear to achieve better dc and aprox the same dps, and can be used with EDF without targetting so you stun what you have in yiur face

I like it more than hold, and easier to get more twists and sorc lives help on dc
but the existing equipment does not help these builds, that's the problem. There is no set of sharn for these builds, it is very difficult to add the equipment, insightful and quality DC because these builds can not take the nightmother scepter and getting these bonuses in other objects is a tetris game that gives a headache. To make these builds viable, you still have to resort to the slaver sets, which are insufferably long to farm and are at a disadvantage compared to the builds that use the op sharn gear. Additionally the dc is harmed because these builds are not usually in exalted angel and because they do not go to a filigree full Dc.

Much of the problem is that the expansion has given zero support to these builds, the rest comes from a derivation of older design. None of this is insurmountable if the devs make small reforms, especially in the support of gear to these builds. But it is logical to point out the problem.

The soundburst bard works best in heroics and low epics. In the cap we return to these problems: the end game itemization does not support the hybrid builds. Currently this itemization end game is aggressively superspecialist.


Yes, I also think that the OP cha should be higher even if it is hybrid, that it is losing bonuses somewhere, but it is true that the hybrids have problems with the DC, problems fundamentally based on the fact that the gear has not helped them in quite a few updates, and sharn has totally excluded them.

[BigErkyKid]

but the existing equipment does not help these builds, that's the problem. There is no set of sharn for these builds, it is very difficult to add the equipment, insightful and quality DC because these builds can not take the nightmother scepter and getting these bonuses in other objects is a tetris game that gives a headache. To make these builds viable, you still have to resort to the slaver sets, which are insufferably long to farm and are at a disadvantage compared to the builds that use the op sharn gear. Additionally the dc is harmed because these builds are not usually in exalted angel and because they do not go to a filigree full Dc.

Much of the problem is that the expansion has given zero support to these builds, the rest comes from a derivation of older design. None of this is insurmountable if the devs make small reforms, especially in the support of gear to these builds. But it is logical to point out the problem.

The soundburst bard works best in heroics and low epics. In the cap we return to these problems: the end game itemization does not support the hybrid builds. Currently this itemization end game is aggressively superspecialist.


Yes, I also think that the OP cha should be higher even if it is hybrid, that it is losing bonuses somewhere, but it is true that the hybrids have problems with the DC, problems fundamentally based on the fact that the gear has not helped them in quite a few updates, and sharn has totally excluded them.

The problem, aside from itemization, are difficulty checks. We have gone so far off the 1d20 range that we can easily have fail to almost-never fail situations.

If the 1d20 remains relevant, you can have some degree of success simply with the baseline characteristics; say a melee bard that can cast an otto ball, and by virtue of high charisma have a chance to land it.

Right now, the difference between a bard that specs for enchantment and one that doesn't is that, if you don't invest heavily, you are in the always fail category. The +CHA modifier cannot bring you to viable DCs.

Power creep is essentially setting the "cap" for specialization. If the cap is super high, you cannot design content where both specialized and non specialized can land their DCs.

[Chai]

but the existing equipment does not help these builds, that's the problem. There is no set of sharn for these builds, it is very difficult to add the equipment, insightful and quality DC because these builds can not take the nightmother scepter and getting these bonuses in other objects is a tetris game that gives a headache. To make these builds viable, you still have to resort to the slaver sets, which are insufferably long to farm and are at a disadvantage compared to the builds that use the op sharn gear. Additionally the dc is harmed because these builds are not usually in exalted angel and because they do not go to a filigree full Dc.

Much of the problem is that the expansion has given zero support to these builds, the rest comes from a derivation of older design. None of this is insurmountable if the devs make small reforms, especially in the support of gear to these builds. But it is logical to point out the problem.

The soundburst bard works best in heroics and low epics. In the cap we return to these problems: the end game itemization does not support the hybrid builds. Currently this itemization end game is aggressively superspecialist.


Yes, I also think that the OP cha should be higher even if it is hybrid, that it is losing bonuses somewhere, but it is true that the hybrids have problems with the DC, problems fundamentally based on the fact that the gear has not helped them in quite a few updates, and sharn has totally excluded them.

This is a microcosm of a macro-issue DDO has - in that new updates/expansions add power to the top using vertical progression rather than bring second tier/third tier builds up to first tier using lateral/horizontal progression.

[Chai]

The problem, aside from itemization, are difficulty checks. We have gone so far off the 1d20 range that we can easily have fail to almost-never fail situations.

If the 1d20 remains relevant, you can have some degree of success simply with the baseline characteristics; say a melee bard that can cast an otto ball, and by virtue of high charisma have a chance to land it.

Right now, the difference between a bard that specs for enchantment and one that doesn't is that, if you don't invest heavily, you are in the always fail category. The +CHA modifier cannot bring you to viable DCs.

Power creep is essentially setting the "cap" for specialization. If the cap is super high, you cannot design content where both specialized and non specialized can land their DCs.

DC is in the area AC was in when they revamped it.

Its in the all or nothing stage now. People investing to get 80% of the way there are experiencing 0 change in success, same as someone who invested nothing into DC.

I'd say be careful what we wish for, because I'd take that old AC system back in a heartbeat, heh. :p

[Iriale]

This is a microcosm of a macro-issue DDO has - in that new updates/expansions add power to the top using vertical progression rather than bring second tier/third tier builds up to first tier using lateral/horizontal progression.
Yes, it is a problem expected due to the design of loot (a design with which I do not agree, you know that I have criticized it until I get tired, and the only thing I have gotten is a warning from Cordovan, the devs do not want to be told that are erroneous)

[Iriale]

The problem, aside from itemization, are difficulty checks. We have gone so far off the 1d20 range that we can easily have fail to almost-never fail situations.

If the 1d20 remains relevant, you can have some degree of success simply with the baseline characteristics; say a melee bard that can cast an otto ball, and by virtue of high charisma have a chance to land it.

Right now, the difference between a bard that specs for enchantment and one that doesn't is that, if you don't invest heavily, you are in the always fail category. The +CHA modifier cannot bring you to viable DCs.

Power creep is essentially setting the "cap" for specialization. If the cap is super high, you cannot design content where both specialized and non specialized can land their DCs.
please, do not suggest to go to horrific systems like the AC. What the devs have to do is have more common sense, they are adding too many past lives, leaving the loot obsolete too early, and designing the loot only for specialist builds

[krimsonrane]

For high-skulls, sure. But for Elite? Shouldn't DC requirements be, what, about 15 points lower? But of course, OP didn't actually tell us what his DCs are. I'm betting he's not even in the 90s, which I suspect would be reachable on a hybrid Bard build.

Does OP have an Equipment DC bonus? Insightful DC? Profane? Embolden feat? Legendary Feat for +4? School Specialist twist for +3? DC-boosting filigree sets? He's already cut severely into his spell DCs by running in LD. Of course he can't skip tons of stuff and still get Elite-workable DCs. If you dump spellcasting DCs, your spellcasting DCs shouldn't work in Elite.



How good is good, and for what content/difficulty? OP said Elite, didn't tell us which content or mobs. Or how happy he is or isn't with his DPS, for that matter.

My DPS is blah. 2400 point crits max. Coming from a barb life doing 50k crits to that is like going from eating steak to ramon noodles.
The dodge, guardbreaking and CC at level 33 or under was appealing. Not being able to do the same at level 34 sucked.

I wasn't looking to make a DC caster. I wanted exactly what I got. A melee bard in LD using various CC abilities.
In today's DDO these type of builds no longer work. Sometimes you learn the hard way. Fortunately I'm only gaining PL's and testing classes.

Something else i took note of. There is only one end game buckler in the entire game. And it's not really a bards buckler.

[SpartanKiller13]

This. The problem that I see is that the hybrid builds actually are not supported. The only ones that currently receive some support are the druid hybrids.

Honestly, I disagree. Between Falconry and Harper, and Int/Wis caster can use their DC stat as a casting stat, and that's a lot more options than there used to be. There are certainly enhancements/spells and even gear as well, but those universal trees have opened up a lot of options to a lot of builds.

Certainly, hybrids aren't as strong as single-focus builds, but that's literally the point lol. If I can only do one thing I should be better at it than you who can do multiple things.

Also have you seen Eldritch Knight? It was just recently overhauled and is the definition of a hybrid melee/caster build. I can't see any way you can argue it's not "receiving some support" lol.

[Chai]

Honestly, I disagree. Between Falconry and Harper, and Int/Wis caster can use their DC stat as a casting stat, and that's a lot more options than there used to be. There are certainly enhancements/spells and even gear as well, but those universal trees have opened up a lot of options to a lot of builds.

Certainly, hybrids aren't as strong as single-focus builds, but that's literally the point lol. If I can only do one thing I should be better at it than you who can do multiple things.

Also have you seen Eldritch Knight? It was just recently overhauled and is the definition of a hybrid melee/caster build. I can't see any way you can argue it's not "receiving some support" lol.

The issue is hybrids fall beyond the D20, where they used to not fall that far.

A focused DC caster could get "no-fail" DCs, however a hybrid melee bard once could get to ~50% success rate. This is horribly inefficient if using single target spells, however, using debuffs and dancing ball was still incredibly viable to catch half/more than half of the mobs in CC, then using melee CC to deal with the other half.

Builds like that are no longer viable because the investment needed to even get to 50% success rate cant happen, along with getting credible melee DPS at the same time. What this does is creates a META of specialist builds who all focus on one thing.

I'm sure someone will point out an outlier or two, but that doesnt detract from the fact that most hybrids that used to work are no longer viable.

[jskinner937]

No bard, you say?


https://youtu.be/oJMGG5mKFGo

Show me a PnP version of this accomplishment. :P

[jskinner937]

How do you build a game where 13 years of existance will not lend to powercreep? How do you retain players that have accomplished everything they have in a game and keep them coming back for more? You cannot do that offering the same effects on items in a raid or even higher level quests if there is no benefit to doing that. Its the way I look at society. A kid coming out of college gets frustrated because he wants something but cannot achieve it so its unfair. Good things come in life and in from hard work and dedication. There are no free handouts that are ever worth taking. If you have a goal...go for it and earn it. This is something nobody can ever take from you because its yours to take. Take handouts and easy routes or go out an earn something to be proud of. I think the later makes a better person.

I had a guy approach me in game about free internet. I was like I pay 80/mo for 15MBs service. He was like I get 25 MBs for free and I know it wrong but I have protection in place so I do not get caught. I said sorry not interested. There is never anything for free in life. If you aren't paying money, you are donating something else. I am 44 years old and it took me a long time to realize this.

[Dorian]

yes, the OP's bard Charisma and DCs are low... but he brings up a good point... the new area is insane for mob DCs.

I have 108 Evo DC on my Sorc and I'm getting a ton of saves from gnolls and goblins in the new area. I don't remember my enchant/necro DC... but it's not terrible... and lots of saves by new mobs.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

There I was, thinking 30 was high...

You guys are in a totally different league :D

Same here. As a - still - beginner who has never gone over level 16 with any char, I'm totally shocked.

Means that I must have reached the cha of all of my cha-based chars with at least 90, when my Clerics or so hit level ... 30.


How do you build a game where 13 years of existance will not lend to powercreep? How do you retain players that have accomplished everything they have in a game and keep them coming back for more? You cannot do that offering the same effects on items in a raid or even higher level quests if there is no benefit to doing that. Its the way I look at society. A kid coming out of college gets frustrated because he wants something but cannot achieve it so its unfair. Good things come in life and in from hard work and dedication. There are no free handouts that are ever worth taking. If you have a goal...go for it and earn it. This is something nobody can ever take from you because its yours to take. Take handouts and easy routes or go out an earn something to be proud of. I think the later makes a better person.

The problem is the arms race. People do demand more challenges, and the devs must give them that, because otherwise they would be disappointed - the players - and those who do not take part in power creep are the realy lost customers, because long-time players just don't care about them. They want power, and the Newbie without any power is left behind.
The problem for the devs is the gap between both groups, and the power player implicitely demanding ot to cater Newbies, but instead them, so the gap widens with each expansion.

The only solution I see here would be to tone down the Casual Difficulty of quests so much that even Newbies would have a chance - which *could* work, since Casual Difficulty is seemingly kind of frowned upon by power players.

[yfernbottom]

A bit off topic, but I would say that part of the problem is that the targets you need to hit have shifted, but the bonuses that are easy to get haven't budged a bit. For example, it really seems off to me that blowing an entire feat on specialization only gets you a bonus of +1 for one spell school. Maybe when that was close to a 5% bonus such a minor boost made sense, but now that a total bonus of as high as +80 or 90 is still absolutely terrible for high end content it really doesn't.

[boredGamer]

The only solution I see here would be to tone down the Casual Difficulty of quests so much that even Newbies would have a chance - which *could* work, since Casual Difficulty is seemingly kind of frowned upon by power players.

Pretty sure no one is talking about casual difficulty here. I don't hit casual much but normal is already so easy I can't imagine anyone not having a chance in casual.

[krimsonrane]

A bit off topic, but I would say that part of the problem is that the targets you need to hit have shifted, but the bonuses that are easy to get haven't budged a bit. For example, it really seems off to me that blowing an entire feat on specialization only gets you a bonus of +1 for one spell school. Maybe when that was close to a 5% bonus such a minor boost made sense, but now that a total bonus of as high as +80 or 90 is still absolutely terrible for high end content it really doesn't.

Very good point

[Dragavon]

102 charisma. I have no idea how that is even possible.

Cha filigree in both sentient weapon and artifact is the key here.

[SirValentine]

DC is in the area AC was in when they revamped it.

Its in the all or nothing stage now. People investing to get 80% of the way there are experiencing 0 change in success, same as someone who invested nothing into DC.




Right now, the difference between a bard that specs for enchantment and one that doesn't is that, if you don't invest heavily, you are in the always fail category.


That's not true at all. The range of mob saves (and thus DC requirements) is massive, when you consider the difference between Casual at one end and R10 at the other. That's exactly what different difficulties are for. People whose build or gear or PLs or skill or knowledge or finger-twitchiness or whatever, or some combination thereof, don't work at one difficulty can work just fine in a lower difficulty.

Personally, I bet it's pretty straight-forward to make a hybrid melee/casting bard that has effective DCs on Hard difficulty. But if I'm wrong, try Normal.

[krimsonrane]

That's not true at all. The range of mob saves (and thus DC requirements) is massive, when you consider the difference between Casual at one end and R10 at the other. That's exactly what different difficulties are for. People whose build or gear or PLs or skill or knowledge or finger-twitchiness or whatever combination thereof don't work at one difficulty can work just fine in a lower difficulty.

Personally, I bet it's pretty straight-forward to make a hybrid melee/casting bard that has effective DCs on Hard difficulty. But if I'm wrong, try Normal.

Yea, he's a beast on anything but level 34. The difference between level 33 and level 34 is massive.

[BoBoDaClown]

Personally, I bet it's pretty straight-forward to make a hybrid melee/casting bard that has effective DCs on Hard difficulty. But if I'm wrong, try Normal.

Problem is, those difficulties are so easy CC isn't necessary (for most).

[krimsonrane]

Problem is, those difficulties are so easy CC isn't necessary (for most).

Exactly. i spent a lot of my capped time doing nothing but sword and board.

[krimsonrane]

Cha filigree in both sentient weapon and artifact is the key here.

That's way too much wasted materials for a passing life.

[noinfo]

That's way too much wasted materials for a passing life.

Unfortunately or fortunately depending how you look at it that is how end game is. It is designed for you to be geared out. Past lives can very slightly lessen the load but being maxed gear is what it is all about. If you don't feel its worth the investment and you are a TR then TR. I do get your point with Hard not needing CC unfortunately the reason for this has always been that hard was not hard and that the dev's catered for people by making elite the standard after BB came in.

Disco
Mindfog
Hypno
Crushing dispair

single target irresistible dance

Will save in general are the weakest saves and on elite my shiradi wl burster that I use for gear farming with a 78ish dc hits a lot of mobs with howl. No where near full lock down and no where near all mob types.

[SpartanKiller13]

Same here. As a - still - beginner who has never gone over level 16 with any char, I'm totally shocked.

Means that I must have reached the cha of all of my cha-based chars with at least 90, when my Clerics or so hit level ... 30.

I'm not entirely sure which point you're at, but I usually have ~48 casting stat at level 16, and I'm pretty far from optimized. And on my first Wizard life I had ~96 Int at cap, with all of +2 from Filigree lol.


A bit off topic, but I would say that part of the problem is that the targets you need to hit have shifted, but the bonuses that are easy to get haven't budged a bit. For example, it really seems off to me that blowing an entire feat on specialization only gets you a bonus of +1 for one spell school. Maybe when that was close to a 5% bonus such a minor boost made sense, but now that a total bonus of as high as +80 or 90 is still absolutely terrible for high end content it really doesn't.

Taking the Specialization feat is in large part so you can grab Magister's +3 as well. So at least it's +4 for the feat+twist? But yeah, if those feats were at least doubled it'd be super awesome :) With SF/GSF/ESF you'd get +6, which is a bit more noticeable than the +3 it currently is.

[Frezar14]

I too am surprised at the difference between levels 33 and 34. TBH 33 for my nuking sorc is too easy while 34 has proven too difficult. I would have thought that difference would be between 34 and reaper and not 33 and 34.

Also I've appreciated the CHR breakdown and at least have realized what I need to get there, but there are several things that just ain't going to happen for me (completionist, +8 tome, racial completionist, just to name a few). I've come to accept reaper at the epic level won't be happening much if at all, which was disappointing for me because that's all I play during my heroic levels.

Good to have goals though!

[krimsonrane]

I'm not entirely sure which point you're at, but I usually have ~48 casting stat at level 16, and I'm pretty far from optimized. And on my first Wizard life I had ~96 Int at cap, with all of +2 from Filigree lol.



Taking the Specialization feat is in large part so you can grab Magister's +3 as well. So at least it's +4 for the feat+twist? But yeah, if those feats were at least doubled it'd be super awesome :) With SF/GSF/ESF you'd get +6, which is a bit more noticeable than the +3 it currently is.

Your signature is offensive. ghetto sorc? really?

[redoubt]

Do +8 tomes actually drop in game?

I'm not sure when exactly it happened, but NOONE is even batting an eye that the expected DCs include +8 tome in the casting stat.

[SpartanKiller13]

Do +8 tomes actually drop in game?

I'm not sure when exactly it happened, but NOONE is even batting an eye that the expected DCs include +8 tome in the casting stat.

According to people I raid with, they drop in LE+ Ravenloft raids & KT. I can confirm that +7's drop there on LN/LH, having pulled three.

[SirValentine]

Do +8 tomes actually drop in game?

I'm not sure when exactly it happened, but NOONE is even batting an eye that the expected DCs include +8 tome in the casting stat.

Yes, they do drop. I've seen them a number of times in Baba and Strahd.

But that's not the reason to routinely include them in breakdowns. Where's Chai when you need him? If someone wants a +8, they can just buy it.

I do remember the old, old days when the devs promised they wouldn't sell raid loot in the store, but those days are long, long gone. So just go buy your +8 tome raid drop.

[SpartanKiller13]

I do remember the old, old days when the devs promised they wouldn't sell raid loot in the store, but those days are long, long gone. So just go buy your +8 tome raid drop.

I totally have all the THTH loot I want, spend $$ and won DDO. What?

Tomes aren't raid loot, they're store loot that the devs have kindly decided to allow to drop in raids XD

[SirValentine]

Tomes aren't raid loot, they're store loot...

They are now. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

Join dates aren't always accurate, but is it possible you're not aware of the history here?

[somethingcleverer]

They are now. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

Join dates aren't always accurate, but is it possible you're not aware of the history here?

I'm bored so I'll take a swat here. Tomes were originally high end raid loot and low end store purchases, which dissolved on TR. The game was stagnant because people with these top end raid tomes were unwilling to TR, they couldn't produce content quickly enough, ect. So they've been working on striking out a better balance between their TR system and end game, one of the first casualties of which was tomes. They provided them with greater power in the store and could be made permanent, and saw warm reception to them being purchasable. So the dynamic switched, now the store offered tomes and raids offered loot. But incentive for endgame was falling behind again as more forms of reincarnation were added to the game, so another concession was made that the store items would be added in a tiered fashion back to raid loot. So I don't know what the problem with understanding is here, that they took store items and made them available as raid drops to bring vibrancy back to endgame.

Also for the rest of the discussion, DCs aren't hard to hit if you work out your gearing but you do have to work out your gearing. Same goes with hybrids, you have to be a lot more careful about gearing by giving up certain things and focus on well rounded stats which is possible given the itemization.

[Iriale]

I'm bored so I'll take a swat here. Tomes were originally high end raid loot and low end store purchases, which dissolved on TR. The game was stagnant because people with these top end raid tomes were unwilling to TR, they couldn't produce content quickly enough, ect. So they've been working on striking out a better balance between their TR system and end game, one of the first casualties of which was tomes. They provided them with greater power in the store and could be made permanent, and saw warm reception to them being purchasable. So the dynamic switched, now the store offered tomes and raids offered loot. But incentive for endgame was falling behind again as more forms of reincarnation were added to the game, so another concession was made that the store items would be added in a tiered fashion back to raid loot. So I don't know what the problem with understanding is here, that they took store items and made them available as raid drops to bring vibrancy back to endgame.

Also for the rest of the discussion, DCs aren't hard to hit if you work out your gearing but you do have to work out your gearing. Same goes with hybrids, you have to be a lot more careful about gearing by giving up certain things and focus on well rounded stats which is possible given the itemization.
That's not true. The old raids offered tomes in their 20 terminations, well after the change of making the permanent tomes in the TR. In fact, for at least 3 years after that change, I remember that the tomes had a good drop in the game. I got a good amount of them even in wilderness areas and end rewards of quests (not raids) years after of the change. So no, what you say is not true. Since the change of tomes as rewards in game to practically store loot was done YEARS after the change to the TRs that you mentioned, it is more logical to think that it was a commercial decision to squeeze the players.

your other statement is not correct either. DC casting requires intense dedication and the current itemization does not help much in hybrid builds, or more correctly said in D&D language, to the gish. The problem is that in the latest updates the devs have opted for an intense superspecialization in the loot design