a LITTLE RANT ABOUT LEVEL DRAIN

[krimsonrane]

This has got to be the most annoying and frustrating spell in the entire game. And might I add, extremely OP and lopsided.
I'm getting level drained for 6 and 8 levels at a time with no limit of how many levels I can lose. But we can't use the same spell in the same way against the monsters. Really?

There is only one answer to level drain and that is complete immunity. Something every class can't get. And don't tell me about silver flame necklaces and such. There is never enough protection. One beholder can empty your entire necklace in a single shot.
One red name caster can go through all 50 charges of your pale lavender stone in less than minute.

I want the same limit the monsters have. A maximum number of levels that can be drained. OR... just get rid of the spell entirely. Take it out of the game.

Rant over.

[Yamani]

Visor of the Flesh Render Guards (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Visor_of_the_Flesh_Render_Guards)

[krimsonrane]

Visor of the Flesh Render Guards (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Visor_of_the_Flesh_Render_Guards)

Death ward does not protect you from level drain.

[ComicRelief]

Death ward does not protect you from level drain.

Death WARD does (at least in theory); Deathblock doesn't (or maybe only provides a small % chance to? I forget, off-hand). However, you are correct in that a beholder will dispel Death Ward, so not a be-all, end-all solution.

If you find that Death Ward is not blocking level drain, BUG IT! I have had it not block stat drains, which can be confused with level drain as they use the same (or nearly the same) sound effect.
;)

[bracelet]

Death ward does not protect you from level drain.

Um. I like you Krim. I love the energy you bring to the forums. But that is flat out wrong. That's one of the main reasons we use death ward.

You are probably seeing dispel magic followed by level drain which makes you think death ward isn't working. This is an age old tactic used by beholders, which makes them one of the trickiest mobs in the game. It is also a tactic used by non-beholders in a tiny number of other quests: Mad Tea Party and Spinner of Shadows spring to mind.

As long as your deathward remains up, you cannot be level drained.

I do agree that level drain, unchecked, can be a huge problem. Getting hit with 4 neg levels on the first cast is jokingly referred to in my circles as "a gentle reminder" to cast deathward on oneself.

Level drain is kind of cool. It is a great equalizer between the haves and have nots. It is dangerous for anyone to let it go unchecked. I have run in groups where we "play them through" because it's actually kind of funny to not try to stop them, or even restore them, to see if we can survive.

I personally wouldn't change them.

[FlavoredSoul]

Death ward does not protect you from level drain.

Deathward 100% does protect from negative levels from energy drain effects, and in fact is the main purpose of the deathward buff (as everyone has deathblock slotted via augment or gear) please do not spread misinformation.

[Quikster]

Death ward does not protect you from level drain.

Incorrect. Combining deathward clickies/pots, spell absorption, etc is how you deal with level drain. Being able to scroll restoration after the level drain is nice as well. Been around for years and while it can be annoying, this is the least of things that need changing imo.

[boredGamer]

Deathward 100% does protect from negative levels from energy drain effects, and in fact is the main purpose of the deathward buff (as everyone has deathblock slotted via augment or gear) please do not spread misinformation.

But IS the kind of effect a creative dev could put on loot. Or as a set bonus. Where the rest of the set is ... Meh. Or whatever.

Effects on loot that aren't exactly power creep please !

Not sure where this one would fit trade-off wise. Only effect on an item maybe ?

[krimsonrane]

Um. I like you Krim. I love the energy you bring to the forums. But that is flat out wrong. That's one of the main reasons we use death ward.

You are probably seeing dispel magic followed by level drain which makes you think death ward isn't working. This is an age old tactic used by beholders, which makes them one of the trickiest mobs in the game. It is also a tactic used by non-beholders in a tiny number of other quests: Mad Tea Party and Spinner of Shadows spring to mind.

As long as your deathward remains up, you cannot be level drained.

I do agree that level drain, unchecked, can be a huge problem. Getting hit with 4 neg levels on the first cast is jokingly referred to in my circles as "a gentle reminder" to cast deathward on oneself.

Level drain is kind of cool. It is a great equalizer between the haves and have nots. It is dangerous for anyone to let it go unchecked. I have run in groups where we "play them through" because it's actually kind of funny to not try to stop them, or even restore them, to see if we can survive.

I personally wouldn't change them.

Maybe I'm thinking deathblock.

As to why deathward is used. I don't think there is an alternative is there? There's deathblock and deathward. the later being the only spell of it's kind. The former on augments and gear. We use them to prevent instant death spells.

[krimsonrane]

Appreciate the like. Thanks

[krimsonrane]

I probably got it dispelled. Still doesn't change the issue of level drain being OP and lopsided.

[PsychoBlonde]

OP and lopsided compared to what?

If it's that big of a deal, play a warforged or an undead wizard or a Paladin with KotC, or run in Shadowdancer . . .

Here's a video of my 9th level rogue soloing 3 bosses on Reaper with 7 neg levels:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY9Q7U8PCYc

[cru121]

Good news! All your characters can be now completely and permanently immune to negative levels at level 6.
https://ddowiki.com/page/Vistani_Knife_Fighter_enhancements#Tier_Four

[byzantinebob]

Flesh is weak. This is why you should not use flesh in making creatures.

[redoubt]

While we are at it, can I cast a spell or use a weapon to give 30 con damage per attack please? Yes, to red names as well. We are red names and they can do it to us...

[bracelet]

Maybe I'm thinking deathblock.

As to why deathward is used. I don't think there is an alternative is there? There's deathblock and deathward. the later being the only spell of it's kind. The former on augments and gear. We use them to prevent instant death spells.

Pale lavender ioun stone, silver flame necklace, and either version of those odd scarabs that drop occasionally will provide temporary protection when equipped.
I imagine the various spell absorption items like magestar or jeweled cloak will provide temporary protection as well, but I have never tried them.
Being warforged or bladeforged confers absolute immunity.
Sealed soul in shadow dancer and the kotc enhancement tree also confers absolute immunity.

A high umd and a stack of restore / heal scrolls is a good fallback plan. But you can’t easily recover lost spell points using this technique.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Pale lavender ioun stone, silver flame necklace, and either version of those odd scarabs that drop occasionally will provide temporary protection when equipped.
I imagine the various spell absorption items like magestar or jeweled cloak will provide temporary protection as well, but I have never tried them.
Being warforged or bladeforged confers absolute immunity.
Sealed soul in shadow dancer and the kotc enhancement tree also confers absolute immunity.

A high umd and a stack of restore / heal scrolls is a good fallback plan. But you can’t easily recover lost spell points using this technique.

vistani tier 4 enhancement is great for complete immunity too, though expensive to integrate into a build

restoration/greater restoration scrolls are nice, but as you say, high UMD is needed since every negative level will impact your skill checks. A good alternative that I like to keep on all my characters if at all possible is a shard trinket of greater restoration - turn in 3 medium eberron dragonshards to clarice roden in the marketplace for 20 charges of greater restoration, ML1, no UMD required. You can also sometimes find restoration potions which are great to have as an emergency standby & stocking up on the gloomy ones during the night revels event is definitely recommended.

Half elves can use class based scrolls with the right dilly feat & racial enhancement investments, but again can be expensive to integrate into a build - it'll never be 100% successful for greater restoration since it makes your character count as having a certain number of class levels for scroll use, but it also means that your success chance can't be reduced like with UMD though.

Another often option is when playing as Halfling - take the dragonmark & theres a tier 2 racial enhancement "break out the leeches" that will restore 1 neg, disease & poison every 3secs, with duration based off your heal skill. It's often overlooked, presumably because halflings are so short :)

[PsychoBlonde]

While we are at it, can I cast a spell or use a weapon to give 30 con damage per attack please? Yes, to red names as well. We are red names and they can do it to us...

Actually, you can. Poison and Contagion, when maximized/empowered (and I suppose intensified as well?) will drop con damage values like this.

Of course, mobs recover ultra-fast from stat damage, unlike players. But IIRC you can hit some pretty high values on those spells.

[redoubt]

Actually, you can. Poison and Contagion, when maximized/empowered (and I suppose intensified as well?) will drop con damage values like this.

Of course, mobs recover ultra-fast from stat damage, unlike players. But IIRC you can hit some pretty high values on those spells.

I thought red names were capped at 10 total stat damage maximum.

[LurkingVeteran]

Actually, you can. Poison and Contagion, when maximized/empowered (and I suppose intensified as well?) will drop con damage values like this.

Of course, mobs recover ultra-fast from stat damage, unlike players. But IIRC you can hit some pretty high values on those spells.

How does this work? According to wiki at least Contagion is 1d3 con and does not take emp/max/intensify.

Poison looks potentially useful if metas actually do something (has anybody tested?), 5.5*4 = 22 con on average. It's basically a con-only Energy Drain with lower CD and a fort save (which makes it situational), more a low-level replacement for Enervation or Bestow Curse.

[ThreadNecromancer]

There is only one answer to level drain and that is complete immunity. Something every class can't get.

Incorrect on both counts.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_resistance

Admittedly, this doesn't protect from the draining melee attacks of certain mobs (vampires, etc. Death Ward doesn't either, I don't think.), but it's certainly worth using, even if only as a swap item. Cannith crafted belts, cloaks, and trinkets can have both Enhancement & Insightful SR. If you're not really into crafting there's several named items, the best of which is likely the Con artifact from Sharn (Gloves slot).

My main uses the Wisdom trinket from Killing Time.

[shores11]

I know as a caster I can drain monsters up to 8 levels at a time depending on which spell I use. I know there are some melee weapons out there also.

[Ordinary]

A 4 piece Purity filigree set will get you immune to level drain.

[droid327]

I personally gotta say stat damage is more annoying than level drain....everyone has levels, but everyone's also going to have a dump stat where you're vulnerable to getting rendered helpless. And there's almost no way to guard against stat damage.

When my L30 Inqui is getting thwarted in L20 Heroic content because her CHA gets insta-nuked, you know its an OP mechanic for mobs.

[C-Dog]

I probably got it dispelled. Still doesn't change the issue of level drain being OP and lopsided.
One could also complain that Bllndness is OP and lopsided - and it can be, unless you have blindness ward, or Remove Blindness pots on your hotbar. But most do (or at least do when they know it's coming in a quest.)

Anything can be like that - if you don't have the gear to prevent it/remove it. And since that gear is available... sorry, but your little rant changes to something less.

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Death_Ward
o https://ddowiki.com/page/Deathblock

[TedSandyman]

The problem is that these spells were meant to be cast once.

In pen and paper, these spells would have been cast once and there wouldn't have been a second casting.

One of the big differences between pen and paper and DDO is the fact that spells can only be cast once in pen and paper. Even in DDO, the mana could theoretically limit the casting, but monsters don't have spell point limits.

This spell is too powerful to be allowed to be spammed.

You should have a one time hit to level drain, but as it is written, you can get hit again and again from the same caster and lose dozens of levels.

The developers didn't really think of that when they wrote the code for the spell. There are a lot of things like this in DDO. The relative weakness of almost all healing spells and potions is one of those issues.

A single cure light wound potion should bring back a large portion of your total HP. But in DDO it doesn't even come close. The HPs of monsters and characters in DDO is much higher than hit points in pen and paper to make the fights last long enough to actually be visible.

The potion problem is mitigated because you can drink many of them. But it really shouldn't be that way and it takes to long to heal that way.

There is one troll cloak that regenerates 1 hp per minute. Maybe OK in PNP where you might have 20 hps. And you could say something like "I wait 20 minutes before moving on" but it is laughably inadequate in DDO.

[HungarianRhapsody]

The problem is that these spells were meant to be cast once.

In pen and paper, these spells would have been cast once and there wouldn't have been a second casting.

One of the big differences between pen and paper and DDO is the fact that spells can only be cast once in pen and paper. Even in DDO, the mana could theoretically limit the casting, but monsters don't have spell point limits.

This spell is too powerful to be allowed to be spammed.

You should have a one time hit to level drain, but as it is written, you can get hit again and again from the same caster and lose dozens of levels.

The developers didn't really think of that when they wrote the code for the spell. There are a lot of things like this in DDO. The relative weakness of almost all healing spells and potions is one of those issues.


I'm FAR from an uber player. I'm VERY not uber/leet/whatever. But I still don't find level drain to be a big problem. There are lots and lots and lots of ways to avoid it and it's not horribly hard to fix it if it happens to you. Absolute worst case, you die and get raised by a hireling that you parked in the beginning of the quest and come back with no negative levels.

The developers definitely did think of that when they wrote the code for the spells. The fact that you don't like that aspect of the game doesn't mean the devs "didn't think of that".