THF Needs Work in Endgame

[SemanticMirage]

Multiple threads have popped up recently regarding the state of attack styles in the current meta game but I wanted to see if we consolidate it into a general thread.

TWF builds are dominant in the current meta with SWF behind them and THF way behind both of them.

THF as it stands is extremely sub-optimal in an endgame which revolves far more around boss dps/single target helpless dps. Glancing blows in high reaper are laughable due to damage scaling and dr, cleaves are sub-optimal due to animation delay and no double strike. If you want AOE damage just run a tempest or whirlwind monk. If you want insane dps run a wolf (which ironically is the only meta "THF" build and it doesnt even use the THF line). There's really no niche or role that THF fills which stems almost entirely from its dps just being so much lower than TWF.

Can you succeed in high skulls with a THF build? Yes absolutely you can it's still playable but it's substantially below the other fighting styles and I say this as an avid THF player. THF's niche was supposed to be AOE damage through glancing blows and cleaves but with glancing blows and cleaves being bad and dance of death existing THF falls far behind the other attack styles.

There's a couple inherent issues with THF that need to be looked at that I briefly outlined above.

1. Glancing Blows, the thing that makes THF interesting are very bad. They can't crit or DS which severely limits their usefulness. That along with only doing 50% base and damage scaling in high skulls means they often just hit for 0's.

2. Cleaves, the bread and butter of a THF build have similar issues that Glancing Blows do. They can't crit or DS and their animations are very slow so it severely limits their DPS/usefulness.

3. THF weapons have worse crit profiles than one-handed weapons generally, 19-20 x3 is the current good one handed crit profile with khopesh/knights training LS. Great axes and Greatswords have bad crit profiles and Falchions are the only THF weapon with a decent crit profile but there's unfortunately no raid falchion (Tail does exist tho)

So how can THF be fixed?

The best solution I've found is just buffing glancing blows and cleaves. Let them DS and crit, make cleave animations either faster or make them do like +10[w] to catch up with DOD or whirlwind monks.

You also have to somehow buff the THF line rather than just the weapon's themselves to prevent people stacking bonuses to a crazy amount, so adding the glancing blow bonuses to the THF feats themselves and making it exclusive with natural fighting or something would prbly be the best solution.

Either way in the current state of the game THF needs work to catch up with other attacks styles.

This isn't even mentioning how much more utility TWF builds have by being able to wield a sentient weapon and a debuffer but that's a whole other thing.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

For me it would be:

1) Speed up cleaves, they should not reduce damage against 1-2 enemies at all.
2) Make all 2HF have 5 or 6 enchantment slots
3) Small nerf to wolf attach speed as it is beyond ridiculous and it makes it hard to balance all other melee. (slightly offset by no2 above)

[droid327]

Yeah pretty much. I'm tempted to try and come up with some more creative ways to enhance THF, but really I think being conservative is the better option here and just fix what it already has, and that's GBs. There's rolespace for AOE melee builds next to THF and SWF for single target DPS.

Like you said, just make GBs work like full-fledged attacks of their own - so crit, +damage, everything that a regular attack would do, scaled by whatever percent your THF is at. I'd put up the chance to proc procs to 100% base too.

I think the various THF enhancements also need a boost too. Each THF enhancement should give like +3/6/10% to GB damage.

I also think PTHF needs to add a GB to your second attack in the sequence - which would give you all 4 if you have the other three THF feats.

[Fedora1]

Like you said, just make GBs work like full-fledged attacks of their own - so crit, +damage, everything that a regular attack would do, scaled by whatever percent your THF is at. I'd put up the chance to proc procs to 100% base too.

Agree, though I'd be happy with just an increased chance of procs over the current chance vs 100% chance.


I think the various THF enhancements also need a boost too. Each THF enhancement should give like +3/6/10% to GB damage.

Also agree.


I also think PTHF needs to add a GB to your second attack in the sequence - which would give you all 4 if you have the other three THF feats.

/signed

[Zites]

Multiple threads have popped up recently regarding the state of attack styles in the current meta game but I wanted to see if we consolidate it into a general thread.

TWF builds are dominant in the current meta with SWF behind them and THF way behind both of them.

THF as it stands is extremely sub-optimal in an endgame which revolves far more around boss dps/single target helpless dps. Glancing blows in high reaper are laughable due to damage scaling and dr, cleaves are sub-optimal due to animation delay and no double strike. If you want AOE damage just run a tempest or whirlwind monk. If you want insane dps run a wolf (which ironically is the only meta "THF" build and it doesnt even use the THF line). There's really no niche or role that THF fills which stems almost entirely from its dps just being so much lower than TWF.

Can you succeed in high skulls with a THF build? Yes absolutely you can it's still playable but it's substantially below the other fighting styles and I say this as an avid THF player. THF's niche was supposed to be AOE damage through glancing blows and cleaves but with glancing blows and cleaves being bad and dance of death existing THF falls far behind the other attack styles.

There's a couple inherent issues with THF that need to be looked at that I briefly outlined above.

1. Glancing Blows, the thing that makes THF interesting are very bad. They can't crit or DS which severely limits their usefulness. That along with only doing 50% base and damage scaling in high skulls means they often just hit for 0's.

2. Cleaves, the bread and butter of a THF build have similar issues that Glancing Blows do. They can't crit or DS and their animations are very slow so it severely limits their DPS/usefulness.

3. THF weapons have worse crit profiles than one-handed weapons generally, 19-20 x3 is the current good one handed crit profile with khopesh/knights training LS. Great axes and Greatswords have bad crit profiles and Falchions are the only THF weapon with a decent crit profile but there's unfortunately no raid falchion (Tail does exist tho)

So how can THF be fixed?

The best solution I've found is just buffing glancing blows and cleaves. Let them DS and crit, make cleave animations either faster or make them do like +10[w] to catch up with DOD or whirlwind monks.

You also have to somehow buff the THF line rather than just the weapon's themselves to prevent people stacking bonuses to a crazy amount, so adding the glancing blow bonuses to the THF feats themselves and making it exclusive with natural fighting or something would prbly be the best solution.

Either way in the current state of the game THF needs work to catch up with other attacks styles.

This isn't even mentioning how much more utility TWF builds have by being able to wield a sentient weapon and a debuffer but that's a whole other thing.



THF builds are very rare in mid-high reaper 2019 DDO, except for wolf builds. Do to the fact that THF builds scale very poorly in reaper. Glancing blows is the super special niche for THF delivering AoE damage to multiple targets, this works ok in elite and low skulls. However it's effectiveness start to drop off around R2-3 and is completely non-existent high skulls, that super special niche loses all it's intended purpose. Doing 60-80% of your base damage is really underwhelming after reaper scaling. Compounded with glances blows not scaling with critical hits, not scaling with helpless damage, does not doublestrike, leaving THF builds with very little appeal other than favor builds and wolf builds in mid-high skulls.




1. Allow glances blows to scale with critical hits?

2. Allow glances blows to double-strike?

3. Allow glances blows on helpless damage?

4. Increase vorpal percentage and effectiveness on THF only?

[Grailhawk]

1. Allow glances blows to scale with critical hits?
Yes


2. Allow glances blows to double-strike?
No, rather see them remove the attack role form the glancing blow if you hit the main target you get the glance on all targets. Lets try to not make glancing blows the same thing as offhand attacks (aka a second attack not controlled by doublestrike) but if you must then it needs to be a second stat just like how offhand attacks have offhand doublestrike.


3. Allow glances blows on helpless damage?
Yes, its dumb that this isn't happening now.


4. Increase vorpal percentage and effectiveness on THF only?
No, I would rather gb procs just do some percentage of the base damage IMO remove all proc effects from the glancing blow.

That all said IMO all melee combat styles need a rather large rework:

all melee styles should have the same swing speed determined by BAB
TWF can stay like it is offhand proc chance to do a second attack, remove offhand stat penalty and offhand doublestrike stat offhand attacks doublestrike at the same rate as main hand attacks, base offhand proc rate 20% feat increase rate by 20% per feat.
THF should be the hard hitting style remove the inherit 1.5 stat bonus and make the default THF damage increase 20% (this needs to increase all damage; proc damage as well as base damage), each feat should increase the damage done by 20%
SWF should be the spike damage style scrap every thing about it now and change to a "second crit channel" at base e.g nothing in the offhand, you have a 20% chance to do 200% damage, each additional feat should increase the damage done on this "second crit" by 100%

I know this will never happen but IMO its a better more balance (and for TWF and THF more in keeping with the sprite of 3.5 DnD) system.

[lyrecono]

The biggest problem is dev support, it has been foccussed on caster and (X-bow) ranged playstyles.
When adressed, most devs aren't aware or are in straight up denail. (Or simply don't care)
And it translates to the playerbase, many who like to play thf toons tr-ed into builds that fit the narative (aka the meta)
Or they stopped playing.

You have a few options, convince the playerbase to show up on the forum to show support,
Or convince the devs of your viewpoint.

Neither is likely.
In the past, many players claimed it was fine out of fear of their own build becomming less "special" and devs always stated that reaper mode isn't a concideration when designing or ballancing.

Don't get me wrong, i would love to see all your points fixed, however, i know from experience how hard it is to deal with people that are either in denail or have a hobby horse.

You have my support, just be prepared to be ignored/denied with bad reasons by devs.

[janave]

Two handed items in general need a full pass, ones that do not benefit from offhand items. This pass would include the very least two-handed melee weapons, casting alias thaumaturgy staves, and bows of each 4 flavor.

D&D inherently has a large distortion in relative power in item profiles.


(Examples)

A magic +5 dagger is relatively much stronger than a +5 greatsword. 200% vs 71.4%
A magic +5 shuriken is relatively much stronger than a +5 bow. 333% vs 111%
Two scepters allow greater number of spell boosters on the casters, staves are the clear losers.

As magic enhancement bonus adds up, the gap widens heavily, feats that are designed to compensate, eg: Power Attack, do not scale up heavily enough in DDO.

(It gets worse at legendary with dice loads, further distorting the inherited base item profiles)


Base dice
+2 Dice load
+3 Dice load
Half of high diceload
Relative increase
+15 enhancement


1d2
133%
200%
1
67%
1000%


1d4
80%
120%
2
80%
600%


1d6
57%
86%
3
86%
429%


1d8
44%
67%
4
89%
333%


1d10
36%
54%
5
91%
272%


1d12
31%
46%
6
92%
230%


2d6
29%
43%
6
86%
214%


2d8
22%
33%
8
89%
167%




As of now DDO pretty much dumps all the classic archetypal weapon options in favor for forcing every meta player into the niche and better scaling options. Part of the problem is how absurdly powerful a single item can be at level 30. Having a full extra slot with effects and augments is extremely overpowered, not counting any combat style benefits.

[bls904c2]

The biggest problem is dev support, it has been foccussed on caster and (X-bow) ranged playstyles.
When adressed, most devs aren't aware or are in straight up denail. (Or simply don't care)
And it translates to the playerbase, many who like to play thf toons tr-ed into builds that fit the narative (aka the meta)
Or they stopped playing.

You have a few options, convince the playerbase to show up on the forum to show support,
Or convince the devs of your viewpoint.

Neither is likely.
In the past, many players claimed it was fine out of fear of their own build becomming less "special" and devs always stated that reaper mode isn't a concideration when designing or ballancing.

Don't get me wrong, i would love to see all your points fixed, however, i know from experience how hard it is to deal with people that are either in denail or have a hobby horse.

You have my support, just be prepared to be ignored/denied with bad reasons by devs.

they balance classes and fighting styles more to non reaper than for reaper they have all but said they don't support stealth in reaper and unfortantly their mechanics of glancing blows does not scale well in reaper.

i am for helping out THF but not to where it is so monsterous in non reaper. I really do believe they need to seperate range and melee tree in reaper trees. maybe if they do that and place some things that improve glancing blows in reaper trees it would not break them in non reaper

just my 2 cents

[LightBear]

For me it would be:

1) Speed up cleaves, they should not reduce damage against 1-2 enemies at all.
2) Make all 2HF have 5 or 6 enchantment slots
3) Small nerf to wolf attach speed as it is beyond ridiculous and it makes it hard to balance all other melee. (slightly offset by no2 above)

Nerving some other class does not make your playstyle improve in any way. Its a bad suggestion.

[janave]

https://i.imgur.com/vxqQJI5.jpg

[lyrecono]

they balance classes and fighting styles more to non reaper than for reaper they have all but said they don't support stealth in reaper and unfortantly their mechanics of glancing blows does not scale well in reaper.

i am for helping out THF but not to where it is so monsterous in non reaper. I really do believe they need to seperate range and melee tree in reaper trees. maybe if they do that and place some things that improve glancing blows in reaper trees it would not break them in non reaper

just my 2 cents

I understand the excuse they will give, even without reaper mode, thf is behind, to for my taste, especially for the price you pay.
Less augments, no debuff offhand weapon, low attack speed, no crits or doublestrike on glancing bloes or cleaves, etc

However, the devs will ignote it anyway, there are no x-bows or store sales involved.

[LurkingVeteran]

Good suggestions all.

A simple band-aid would probably be to make glancing blows scale 200% with melee damage. This is slightly lower end-game DPS than allowing both crits and double strikes, but fewer calculations and does not impact proc balancing (e.g. blood strength). Another option is to add a legendary feat that is as much DPS for THF as Ethereal Plane is for dex TWF, but two wrongs don not make one right.

[SerPounce]

Two handed items in general need a full pass, ones that do not benefit from offhand items. This pass would include the very least two-handed melee weapons, casting alias thaumaturgy staves, and bows of each 4 flavor.

D&D inherently has a large distortion in relative power in item profiles.


(Examples)

A magic +5 dagger is relatively much stronger than a +5 greatsword. 200% vs 71.4%
A magic +5 shuriken is relatively much stronger than a +5 bow. 333% vs 111%
Two scepters allow greater number of spell boosters on the casters, staves are the clear losers.

As magic enhancement bonus adds up, the gap widens heavily, feats that are designed to compensate, eg: Power Attack, do not scale up heavily enough in DDO.

(It gets worse at legendary with dice loads, further distorting the inherited base item profiles)


Base dice
+2 Dice load
+3 Dice load
Half of high diceload
Relative increase
+15 enhancement


1d2
133%
200%
1
67%
1000%


1d4
80%
120%
2
80%
600%


1d6
57%
86%
3
86%
429%


1d8
44%
67%
4
89%
333%


1d10
36%
54%
5
91%
272%


1d12
31%
46%
6
92%
230%


2d6
29%
43%
6
86%
214%


2d8
22%
33%
8
89%
167%




As of now DDO pretty much dumps all the classic archetypal weapon options in favor for forcing every meta player into the niche and better scaling options. Part of the problem is how absurdly powerful a single item can be at level 30. Having a full extra slot with effects and augments is extremely overpowered, not counting any combat style benefits.

THis is a great point. When this comes up the devs acknowledge that there's an issue, but insist that it "shouldn't be addressed with itemization." But part of the problem is the itemization. The weapons themselves are behind one handed weapons. The crit ranges are worse, you lose and equipment slot, and you get fewer hits for meaningful proc effects (such as sneak attack). Glancing blows should scale better, and cleaves should doublestrike, but I get that system work like that has a big backlog and we might have to wait. What's most frustrating is that we get new two handers being release that just aren't good enough.

[Alled78]

THis is a great point. When this comes up the devs acknowledge that there's an issue, but insist that it "shouldn't be addressed with itemization." But part of the problem is the itemization. The weapons themselves are behind one handed weapons. The crit ranges are worse, you lose and equipment slot, and you get fewer hits for meaningful proc effects (such as sneak attack). Glancing blows should scale better, and cleaves should doublestrike, but I get that system work like that has a big backlog and we might have to wait. What's most frustrating is that we get new two handers being release that just aren't good enough.

Yes to doublestrike and glancingblows

Then

I think 2h weapons need an upgrade respect 1h:
6 special abilities or added damage against 4 i think should be more correct
The 50% dmg from ability is not enough

[Grailhawk]

IMO focusing on the relative difference in power between low end single handed weapons and high end single handed weapons is going to just confuse people and if addressed before in inherent combat style problems not do much at all.

5[1d4+3] < 5[1d12+6] even if relative increase from 1d4 to 5[1d4+3] is greater than 1d12 to 5[1d12+6].

Glancing blows are the biggest issue they suck they always have.

Talking about weapon affects discrepancy and gear slots is interesting but until the root combat style is on par with the other styles its kind of pointless. The only difference along this line of thing that is worth mentioning at this stage is the 19-20/x3 crit profile but 18-20/x2 is close enough if there were a good selection of Falchions.

[Alled78]

https://i.imgur.com/vxqQJI5.jpg

This consideration is misleading
U chose a starting axe with modified critical that was top weapon when out
And u should chose the rl maul for confrontation because of the keen5

[Anaximandroz]

I believe in 3ed 2hf could have a buckle tied to theirs arms and get all the benefits from it except the ac bonus. In the other d&d mmo 2hfigthers have a weapon ornament to equip in the 2nd weapon slot. In a game where gearing is a big part, being one slot behind is a bad deal (vide the nonexistent staff casters). While reworking the glancing blows would improve the 2hf, the occupied second slot is a design flaw less noticeable in earlier dd because then the gear weight was minor compared to now.

[lyrecono]

I believe in 3ed 2hf could have a buckle tied to theirs arms and get all the benefits from it except the ac bonus. In the other d&d mmo 2hfigthers have a weapon ornament to equip in the 2nd weapon slot. In a game where gearing is a big part, being one slot behind is a bad deal (vide the nonexistent staff casters). While reworking the glancing blows would improve the 2hf, the occupied second slot is a design flaw less noticeable in earlier dd because then the gear weight was minor compared to now.

3'rd edition didn't allow for a buckler, unless homebrew rules....

I do like the idea of an off hand item slot, where an artifact or trinket that only works with a martial 2h weapon could be slotted to offset the penalty of fighting two handed (wich is far behind swf and 2wf).
On the other hand (no pun intended) this means more trash on the loot tables

I think we shouldn't try to patch mechanical issues with items.
This will lead to problems during every update where people will be asking for a new named item, like bear druids do for a new dragonscale platemail.
Problems with the game mechanics require a fix within the system.

Alllow doublestrike and cleave (and cleave like attacks with 2hw) to benefit from critts and doublestrike and give 2h martial weapons more enh on their weapons, 6 instead of 4 and maybe add a +[w] per 2hf feat

[janave]

Suggesting that relative power between items does not matter is like saying all weapons should be cosmetic placeholders. When devs introduced W into the game they understood the problem, alto it was more about damage bonus versus weapon dice roll, not the inherent weapon profile vs profile to stay relevant. But as damage bonuses grow, and they grow- this issue will crop up again unless handled better in item design.

Did not mean to confuse anyone so here is the essence:

Throwing the RL Raid Shuriken is like throwing Greataxes (old, but still high level ), except better, because an axe hits cap at 2, shuriken hits cap at 4.

You may use combat style feats to cover up what is already inherited in the weapon profiles but thats hardly a "solution", it seems more like a workaround to me.

[Anaximandroz]

3'rd edition didn't allow for a buckler, unless homebrew rules....

I do like the idea of an off hand item slot, where an artifact or trinket that only works with a martial 2h weapon could be slotted to offset the penalty of fighting two handed (wich is far behind swf and 2wf).
On the other hand (no pun intended) this means more trash on the loot tables

I think we shouldn't try to patch mechanical issues with items.
This will lead to problems during every update where people will be asking for a new named item, like bear druids do for a new dragonscale platemail.
Problems with the game mechanics require a fix within the system.

Alllow doublestrike and cleave (and cleave like attacks with 2hw) to benefit from critts and doublestrike and give 2h martial weapons more enh on their weapons, 6 instead of 4 and maybe add a +[w] per 2hf feat

Not trying to argue but from 3,5 player's handbook, pag 124: Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so because of the extra weight on your arm. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. You can’t bash someone with a buckler.

i agree the niche for 2hf got diluted to other weapons styles and they are going the way of the staff casters, but how many power you can fit in one item slot now? +30 to a stat? i'm more set in let 2hs just equip bucklers (like bears now can equip metal armors).

[Kilgrave]

I found this video and thought it was cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC2MqsdTc8k

[OfElectricMen]

3'rd edition didn't allow for a buckler, unless homebrew rules....

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm

[Chai]

Un-nerf the U5 nerf, and give back glancing blows when moving.

Id accept being last place in DPS if I can move around and "play my AC" while still being in the same ballpark.

[lyrecono]

Not trying to argue but from 3,5 player's handbook, pag 124: Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so because of the extra weight on your arm. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. You can’t bash someone with a buckler.

i agree the niche for 2hf got diluted to other weapons styles and they are going the way of the staff casters, but how many power you can fit in one item slot now? +30 to a stat? i'm more set in let 2hs just equip bucklers (like bears now can equip metal armors).

My bad, i thought it counted as a shield, i have never seen anyone use one and we're still using 3.5(and pathfinder) anyway, a buckler isn't going to fix the inherent problems with 2hf

[lyrecono]

After mentioning this thread somewhere else, i deceided to check in, seems like a dead thread by this point, not even a "noticed by a dev" comment.

Does anyone know a good mmorpg where 2hf melees aren't ignored or screwed over?

[Cookiegum]

I've been repeating in many post a small step would be to have a 3th augment slot in 2h weapons.
It makes sense, it should require (really) little work from devs, would help a tiny bit THF builds and show some care on their part.

[Cantor]

My bad, i thought it counted as a shield, i have never seen anyone use one and we're still using 3.5(and pathfinder) anyway, a buckler isn't going to fix the inherent problems with 2hf

It would help with the itemization penalty inherent with 2handers though (then only bows would be SoL). Better prr/mrr/ac and some stats, likely guardbreaking as it's on many bucklers and guardbreaking is amazing. A buckler might not help DPS directly much but it would help in general.

[Logic]

I agree THF is worse than than TWF/SWF.

THF should be made better... but still be different than TWF/SWF. I like the idea of making THF's AOE better. THF would be best at AOE. And TWF/SWF would be good at single target. Seems balanced. Maybe let abilities like trip, stunning blow, sunder, etc. apply in AOE when using THF.