Wish there was a casual, no spoils raid difficulty for learning legendary raids

[Oliphant]

It's pretty rare to see an lfm for a raid, much less a learning friendly lfm. Many folks are doing ok but I think more players are getting left behind than they used to. That's just my feeling as the game occurs to me on Ghallanda. A simple way to improve the situation without breaking the worlds is to empower the players to learn the raids with no (or extremly low) chance of the named loot. Seems to solve a chicken egg problem with minimal repercussions. The result is simply knowledge.

[deredriel]

It's pretty rare to see an lfm for a raid, much less a learning friendly lfm. Many folks are doing ok but I think more players are getting left behind than they used to. That's just my feeling as the game occurs to me on Ghallanda. A simple way to improve the situation without breaking the worlds is to empower the players to learn the raids with no (or extremly low) chance of the named loot. Seems to solve a chicken egg problem with minimal repercussions. The result is simply knowledge.


i can only agree with you, as a pug player and not speaking english player, few years ago it was not easy to go in a raid and understand what i had to do. still Actually, if it's easier knowing more people, i will be glad to have this possibility even with no named loot, that 'is not the goal.
valdomir

[Nyata]

I think the main problem is that many raid mechanics cannot be solved solo, so even a lower-than-casual setting would not get you the full learning experience, because how for example would you solve the multiple levers in VoN5?

What I found helpful when I was really confused by where to go and what to do after running a raid once with a group was look it up on youtube and watch people run it. Though some of the videos were (and still are) bad for my ego, I still learned a lot from them and at least I wasn't afraid to run with a pug.

Unfortunately the other solution is way harder to do depending on how outgoing you are... find people you trust to run with, people who you know will not bite your head off if you do something... not-smart. Even better, people who will tell you what to do or not to do before getting to the lock out point or whatever.

My personal experience is that the LFM scene, especially for raids, differs a lot from server to server and even on any given server it changes with daytime. I find off-time raids usually a lot more relaxed than prime time (cause if you join a prime time raid you are supposed to know what to do, I guess). In general, most raid leaders will not kick you out though if you say 'I have never done this before, please yell at me before I do something stupid!'. It's easier for them if they *know* you are new and need help than to assume everyone knows what they are doing.

[droid327]

Even better...just let us buy raid gear with enough of a soloable currency, e.g. Vistani tokens :D

Just joking (not joking), but if you cant find raid LFMs at all, what good is learning the raid? And if you do see LFMs but only occasionally, then odds are they're as anxious to get the spots full as you are to find a spot - so why arent they helping you learn so you can all finish?

Not a raider at all so maybe there's something I'm missing, but it seems like this is something that could be addressed by the raiding community just by writing up good descriptions on the wiki, the kind of things that even if they dont quite make sense just reading it, it all clicks right away once you play the first time, or watch a runthrough video. As a general rule, I'm against ideas that make the devs solve problems that players could already solve themselves.

[Nyata]

[...]

Not a raider at all so maybe there's something I'm missing, but it seems like this is something that could be addressed by the raiding community just by writing up good descriptions on the wiki, the kind of things that even if they dont quite make sense just reading it, it all clicks right away once you play the first time, or watch a runthrough video. As a general rule, I'm against ideas that make the devs solve problems that players could already solve themselves.

this is where the conundrum of the non-native english speaker kicks in though... reading the wiki can sometimes add to your insecurity. A lot of people would not guess by me typing that I am not actually an english speaker, and yet... a wee tiny bit of insecurity about my comprehension skills remains. this is why I found the youtube videos more helpful... but that might just be me.

[Oliphant]

...if you cant find raid LFMs at all, what good is learning the raid?
I could start by posting learning lfms and could at least go through a learning run with a short party or weaker party. The key is the legendary raids are quite hard on EN, so a group of middle of the road players that don't know it will have a hard time even getting to the puzzles. Once we know the raid we could start a real raid group and we can post the lfms. Then you do that ievery three days (or sooner) and more people left behind know the raid, and over time the server ecosystem changes and its more like old Shroud days. I dunno... one hopes.


...it seems like this is something that could be addressed by the raiding community just by writing up good descriptions on the wiki, the kind of things that even if they dont quite make sense just reading it, it all clicks right away once you play the first time, or watch a runthrough video.
That is how it occurs to me know, I read wiki, it mostly makes sense but only clicks once I get a chance to play it through, and only if I somehow be exposed to the fail mechanics, not carried through puzzles. We could talk about it theoretically but my take more comes from my lived experience of a relatively dead public raid scene and how it was before. I wonder if the biggest factor is people buying bypass timers and then getting what they need and then they stop playing the raid; however, I don't suggest changing bypass timers for similar reasons as you are quoted stating below and because it would take something away from someone else.


As a general rule, I'm against ideas that make the devs solve problems that players could already solve themselves.
I hear ya. The spirit of my idea is to empower us to learn so we solve our own problem though.

[boredGamer]

I will throw out there it can be very helpful just to go in solo, and then go in with a few people (2, 3?) to raids, and just see how, where you fail.

Failing is fine and good.

No, it won't teach you the parts of the raid you can't get to, but every part of the raid you have more familiarity with, the more comfortable you will be.

[Oliphant]

A refinement of my idea: Absolutely no chance of loot on Legendary Learning difficulty, but also no timer for learning raids. A no timer raid learning difficulty could get a server trained up in a few weeks. We could raise an army... one hopes.

And to clarify, my original idea is meant for legendary raids specifically, being so hard on EN. If it takes no dev time to nerf the baddies, then do it for all the raids, but I was thinking the likely dev time could be limited to the newer extreme difficulty content.

[shores11]

There is already a system where you can run mostly at your own pace or your parties pace. It's called 'normal', and this difficulty setting is generally very forgiving and allows you to explore and learn the dungeon.

[Renvar]

/not signed

Raids are supposed to be challenging. But on normal, even the legendary ones can be accomplished by characters without optimal builds or any past lives. The key is to find some like minded people to run the raids with. These exist on every server. It might be worth checking out other servers, though, if raiding seems kinda spartan in your usual play time frames.

I know the High Lords of Malkier run teaching raids on Sarlona (i think). And advertise on the forums here when they do. Check out the server subsections for more information. Maybe if you post on your server, you will get some interest in doing some norm runs to learn the legendary raids.

No need for any dev programming work. You can solve this with a little community relations and communication.

[Oliphant]

There is already a system where you can run mostly at your own pace or your parties pace. It's called 'normal', and this difficulty setting is generally very forgiving and allows you to explore and learn the dungeon.

Sure, except in legendary raids.

[Alled78]

I will throw out there it can be very helpful just to go in solo, and then go in with a few people (2, 3?) to raids, and just see how, where you fail.

Failing is fine and good.

No, it won't teach you the parts of the raid you can't get to, but every part of the raid you have more familiarity with, the more comfortable you will be.

Well i suppose a player new to raid is not maxed in attack or defenses
So i suppose such player cannot survive more than 1 min going solo or in 3 in Strad baba or shroud
In normal difficulty.
Only thing is go in full party, in normal o hard
Pug or guild raid .
U can find a guild running lh or normal, there are some on cannith for example

Killing time is far more difficult even in normal a full pug raid can fail
But is more easy for solo learning if u are strong enough

[Anuulified]

/not signed

Raids are supposed to be challenging. But on normal, even the legendary ones can be accomplished by characters without optimal builds or any past lives. The key is to find some like minded people to run the raids with. These exist on every server. It might be worth checking out other servers, though, if raiding seems kinda spartan in your usual play time frames.

I know the High Lords of Malkier run teaching raids on Sarlona (i think). And advertise on the forums here when they do. Check out the server subsections for more information. Maybe if you post on your server, you will get some interest in doing some norm runs to learn the legendary raids.

No need for any dev programming work. You can solve this with a little community relations and communication.

+ 1 come to Khyber I love normal raids. Lots of alts to play and free runes for having fun!

[boredGamer]

Well i suppose a player new to raid is not maxed in attack or defenses
So i suppose such player cannot survive more than 1 min going solo or in 3 in Strad baba or shroud
In normal difficulty.
Only thing is go in full party, in normal o hard
Pug or guild raid .
U can find a guild running lh or normal, there are some on cannith for example

Killing time is far more difficult even in normal a full pug raid can fail
But is more easy for solo learning if u are strong enough

Any of those raids you can learn a bunch just by going in.

Strahd - what are these items people are talking about ? How / where am I going to equip them?
Baba - what is the main fight like ? what weapons do I want?
Killing Time - does falling off these islands kill me? What is happening?

They're all super easy to bind and restart.

[axel15810]

I think it's an excellent idea, provided there is 0% chance of any loot and no experience points earned. Making raids more accessible can only be a good thing for the raiding population. Personally, I'd definitely use it. Lots of people are intimidated by the thought of joining raid parties when they don't know the raid.

Obviously not all raids are possible to solo but that's ok. The difficulty could be run in small groups as well.

Also, I'd guess this would not be time intensive for the devs to implement.

I honestly don't see any big downsides to this. The only thing I can think of is maybe the super casual crowd that doesn't care about loot may leave the normal raiding population and run the learning difficulty as their standard.

[rfachini]

I'd be in favor of a casual raid difficulty that allows hirelings. I'm not a big raider in general but I like having done all the quests and experiencing the stories. An easier difficulty with lower experience and chance of loot would be good to experience the raid when you can't get a group together for it, which happens fairly often.

[Melli]

I absolutely love the idea of a Legendary Learning difficulty. There are virtually no LFMs that I see on Sarlona for raids. I would love to be able to learn the raids with enough confidence to be able to post them myself. I think a raid listed "learning run, no loot, any level welcome" would fill up.

[Arianrhod]

I agree with the OP, and tried suggesting something like this some years back, but the idea was shot down - apparently (at least then) people were more interested in keeping raids "raid-y" than in encouraging more people to give them a try. I hope things have changed since then, but not really very optimistic.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Even better...just let us buy raid gear with enough of a soloable currency, e.g. Vistani tokens :D

Just joking (not joking), but if you cant find raid LFMs at all, what good is learning the raid? And if you do see LFMs but only occasionally, then odds are they're as anxious to get the spots full as you are to find a spot - so why arent they helping you learn so you can all finish?

Not a raider at all so maybe there's something I'm missing, but it seems like this is something that could be addressed by the raiding community just by writing up good descriptions on the wiki, the kind of things that even if they dont quite make sense just reading it, it all clicks right away once you play the first time, or watch a runthrough video. As a general rule, I'm against ideas that make the devs solve problems that players could already solve themselves.

I think there would be a lot more LFMs if there were more people who knew the raid.

[blerkington]

This is something I would have really appreciated when I was just starting to raid.

The pace of raiding, lack of explanation, difficulty of getting practice in a test setting and fear of messing things up for the group can all be intimidating for novice raiders. Some raid leaders are very good about helping new people, others not so much.

If there were a way to try an easy setting that did not give runes and named loot, it could be very useful for those hesitating about dipping their toes into the water. Then they might have the confidence to get involved in the real raiding scene.

Thanks.

[Enerdhil]

... make a decent healbot. Nah, it's not a sarcasm and i'm telling you this as someone picky when it comes to reaper endgame pug raiding.

Lets be honest, there's many more serious problems ignored by devs, so i'm 100% sure they will do nothing with raiding system itself, especially when it's not really a huge problem. Just like the other ppl said - there's always a normal difficulty, although i do have to admit it might be a problem to fill it. Vets wont join, greedy ppl wont join, some people wont be interested in 3 days timer for norm run.

Now, back to the main issue mentioned by you. Like i said, i'm picky while accepting folks for higher diff end game raids. Lets be honest, r1+ killing time or strahd have no mercy for weaklings and few of those can make raid impossible to finish cause of lack of dps, survivability etc. There's stuff that few vets in party cant handle alone.

If we speak about dps and survivability required to hurt mob for more than 3 seconds - yeah, it might be not so easy for someone new. But as a healbot you usually just stay behind, far from mobs, dont need strong dps and just cast heals from time to time. Most of the time you're not in close combat, danger, so it's easier to survive. And it's much easier to have decent positive spell power and crits than really good dps/surivivability. It's pretty easy to do, for example, 2.5-3k hp/6k sp 1st life fvs, which will allow you to survive hit or two and keep the others alive through entire raid, especially if youre not afraid of using sla's, cocoon, renew etc. Whats more important - you'll be useful for party on every difficulty and you'll have opportunity to see what is happening, especially since usually people dont expect from healbots doing anything other than healing.

And dont be afraid about warning the leader that you're new in raid. Personally i got nothing against 1st timers as long as they're listening to orders, but someone causing mess for 45 min then admitting he got no clue what to do... It can make people really angry. And everything i said i'm telling you as someone who will decline without hesitation every request to join a party made by people i'm 100% sure are not ready for difficulty i'm posting and this may cause failure for entire group, but on the other hand as someone who would do his best to explain everything for someone able to contribute one way or another or on lower difficulties.

[Oliphant]

I recently brought a real life buddy to the game. I advised he be a full on healer cleric because of the current reaper scene being unforgiving to most other play styles. I explained and now he fully gets it that healing works 100% of the time, on any difficulty, no matter how hard, and the harder it gets the more valuable it gets, especially with reaper self healing penalty. He's staying back and just healing, although it still seems to be a psychological challenge for him to feel useful hiding in the back. I disagree there is no problem and suggest its a problem that looks radically different depending on your perspective. For some people in happy raid families, it may even be a golden age (who can say).

[Clemeit]

I guess we should also give players the ability to Free Cam through any quest, and the developers should release the answers to all riddles and puzzles. Go a step further: just allow players to use God Mode (forgoing loot and XP) in any instance.

Or, people can struggle through learning raids like they have for years. Raiding is designed for "higher-end" players who are into team-play. Like Reaper, raids are designed to challenge party cooperation and encourage players to come up with new strategies. These strategies develop over time as players learn to adapt to new mechanics, all while struggling to stay alive. Allowing players to "easy mode" through raids would destroy this dynamic.

Players that are currently incapable of completing Normal raids should work towards becoming better geared and more apt at observing their environment.
Or join a guild that runs "leaning raids."
Or just do what most people do: join a PUG and die a lot.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I guess we should also give players the ability to Free Cam through any quest, and the developers should release the answers to all riddles and puzzles. Go a step further: just allow players to use God Mode (forgoing loot and XP) in any instance.




We already have the things that you're saying, "we may as well" about.

We can already go through just about every quest in god mode (casual over level or on Heroic person while we're currently Epic) and we'll even get XP for it and the answer to.every single puzzle.in do.is already posted on the web.

[Oliphant]

@Clemeit, no one would be giving anyone anything. These are paying customers that have to shell out real money for new content and then the raids are way out of reach for way too many of them. This would just be an opportunity to learn, help grow community.