Monk Builds w/o Wraps?

[Fedora1]

Hello everyone. I am trying to plan ahead for some monk lives and it has been 8+ years since I played a monk (pre-enahncement tree days), and even then never took him out of mid-heroics.

1. I am wondering if there are any good monk builds that do not use hand wraps, or are hand wraps the best way to go with monks?

2. Are longswords are a good option for a monk? Would going with L6 fighter using longswords with Knights Training feat + Kensai 3rd Core "Strike With No Thought" and the Kensai T5 "One with the Blade" work, or does that lock out better T5 monk enhancements?

3. I saw that monks can remain centered using longswords via "Blades of Whirling Steel", but then "Dance of Flowers" doesn't add the +W. Will "Dance of Flowers" add the +W to longswords if you have "One with the Blade"?

4. Are there other options like staves?

5. What are the advantages/disadvantages of not using wraps?

I am not interested in a thrower build (monkcher or whatever).

I know some of my questions overlap, sorry about that. Any guidance and advice or insight is appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[HungarianRhapsody]

The biggest advantages is 1) better crit profile (WAAAAAY better crit profile) and getting to use named weapons and other abilities from another class. If you're splashing Monk into another class, being able to use Vistani daggers and still remain centered or Kensai weapons, etc. is really nice.

I can't say I'd ever do that as a Monk 20, but if you're splashing Monk into another build, it can be nice.

Edit: not saying that you can't do other weapons as a Monk 20 - just that it isn't something appealing to me because you have to do a lot more work to get up to Handwraps level and I'm fairly lazy.

[Fedora1]

The biggest advantages is 1) better crit profile (WAAAAAY better crit profile) and getting to use named weapons and other abilities from another class. If you're splashing Monk into another class, being able to use Vistani daggers and still remain centered or Kensai weapons, etc. is really nice.

I can't say I'd ever do that as a Monk 20, but if you're splashing Monk into another build, it can be nice.

Trying for monk past lives, so I would be needing at least 10/11 levels of monk.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Trying for monk past lives, so I would be needing at least 10/11 levels of monk.

You could do 8/8/4 or 8/6/6 depending on the other classes if you like. Druid/Monk/whatever could be nice. (Druid comes before Monk alphebetically, but it still comes after Monk in the list of classes, so Druid 8/Monk 8/ whatever 4 would still give you Monk past life.)

[janave]

Monk 8 barely gives anything tho, 9th gives you 5% run speed and improved evasion. I would try to take 12 monk at least for abundant step.

[Fedora1]

You could do 8/8/4 or 8/6/6 depending on the other classes if you like. Druid/Monk/whatever could be nice. (Druid comes before Monk alphebetically, but it still comes after Monk in the list of classes, so Druid 8/Monk 8/ whatever 4 would still give you Monk past life.)

True, wasn't thinking about triple classing.



Monk 8 barely gives anything tho, 9th gives you 5% run speed and improved evasion. I would try to take 12 monk at least for abundant step.

Also true.

Monk 12/Fighter 6/ and something 2 maybe?

I've borrowed low hanging fruit from monk on a couple of older builds before but otherwise know very little about how to play one.

[NemesisAlien]

You could do 8/8/4 or 8/6/6 depending on the other classes if you like. Druid/Monk/whatever could be nice. (Druid comes before Monk alphebetically, but it still comes after Monk in the list of classes, so Druid 8/Monk 8/ whatever 4 would still give you Monk past life.)

I thought you need 15 for a past life? :confused:

[DrawingGuy]

Hello everyone. I am trying to plan ahead for some monk lives and it has been 8+ years since I played a monk (pre-enahncement tree days), and even then never took him out of mid-heroics.

1. I am wondering if there are any good monk builds that do not use hand wraps, or are hand wraps the best way to go with monks?

2. Are longswords are a good option for a monk? Would going with L6 fighter using longswords with Knights Training feat + Kensai 3rd Core "Strike With No Thought" and the Kensai T5 "One with the Blade" work, or does that lock out better T5 monk enhancements?

3. I saw that monks can remain centered using longswords via "Blades of Whirling Steel", but then "Dance of Flowers" doesn't add the +W. Will "Dance of Flowers" add the +W to longswords if you have "One with the Blade"?

4. Are there other options like staves?

5. What are the advantages/disadvantages of not using wraps?

I am not interested in a thrower build (monkcher or whatever).

I know some of my questions overlap, sorry about that. Any guidance and advice or insight is appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

1. Shuriken is good, but only in epics and particularly end game after your get your feats/EDs/items, so really isn't a good heroic TR option. Dagger is good because Vistani is good, and is probably your best heroic weaponized pure monk option (Plus daggers like Sky Pirate and Nightforge Stiletto are amazing). Staff will work just fine, but Rogue Thief Acrobat is better, so cross-classing to maximize dodge from Monk and TA abilities + SA DPS from Rogue is a common mix. You won't break DPS records, but they work well, especially in heroics. Other weapon options face the fact that other classes are simply better at them. Not only are their trees stronger, but they have class features to bolster them as well. Currently Monk has no class feature as it was deleted a few months back in the name of a 10% DPS nerf to unarmed at end game. However once you splash into those other classes, Monk is still a strong splash providing dodge, AC, and stances as long as you remain centered. Fighter Kensei allows for the use of ANY weapon while also providing full crit profiles, making it a strong combo.

2. T5 Kensai is much better than T5 Ninja Spy as it provides melee power, multiple attacks that can't be saved against and work on everything (unlike Touch of Death), allows for the use of any melee weapon (which does indeed work with A Dance of Flowers), along with some passive damage.

3. Yes, One With the Blade works with A Dance of Flowers.

4. I covered this in question one. Once you cross class, you can really do whatever you want. 12 Monk / 6 Fighter / 2 Rogue would give you a viable long sword tree with fighter and some trapping from Rogue. 8 Monk / 6 Fighter / 6 Cleric gives you Soundburst CC, some heals, and turns are stupid powerful in heroics. The 8 Druid / 8 Monk Hungarian mentioned lets you lean on Winter Wolf, which is quite strong. 12 Monk / 6 Ranger / 2 Rogue Vistani build lets you get the amazing Dance of Death from Ranger, trapping from rogue, and abundant step + stances from monk. Just comb the forums. While I do think they fell short of the mark on the Ninja Spy tree for non-shuriken builds, Monk is still a strong defensive splash that many people utilize. You simply take enough Monk levels for it to be the dominant class, and you're golden for your past life.

5. One of the main reasons to play a Monk is their utility. Much of that utility lies in the Shintao tree with debuffing (Jade Strike), CC (Tomb of Jade and Kukan-Do), and self-raising with Phoenix. Handwraps also have Stunning Fist, a 6 second stun on a 6 second cooldown. Handwrap DPS itself has had a rollercoaster though. They were a bit behind originally, so they bolstered them a bit with Reinforced Fist items and TOD rings and were fine. Then the weapon multiplier system happened and handwraps fell near the bottom of weapon options. It was like this for years until U33 when they weaponized handwraps. However they overshot it a bit loading a ton of Melee Power in Henshin and then releasing extremely overpowered handwraps which shot Handwrap DPS to the top. Unfortunately a player that exploits to min-max his DPS posted some videos (which he did use exploits on adding extra Ws, extra attack/damage, and some TR shenanigans... all unlisted of course so most players don't realize it) on a character with every past life and high reaper points. This left a skew in people's minds that remains to this day that seems Devs latched onto as well. Some people just don't know how strong other options are as they didn't receive the high profile explosion this players videos had. This lead to all the nerfs we have today. Really the Duality nerfs were needed, the melee power nerfs are fine especially considering the utility Monks already have (though should have came with other changes to Henshin to make up for it to keep the tree competitive with TA), and even the latest nerf doesn't put handwraps in the gutter as the utility makes up for it. I still, and always will, think the Devs should have handled the last nerf differently and will hope, no matter how fruitlessly, that they roll back the nerf of a class feature that has existed since 1st edition, but I've digressed a fair bit.

TL;DR - Handwraps have additional utility of Stunning Fist and are the weapon of the best Monk tree, Shintao. You can easily beat the DPS of handwraps, especially in heroics (almost everything does now due to the class feature being deleted) due to many great modified crit profile and base damage weapons. And as DPS is king, especially if you have a caster handling the CC for you, you may like other weapon options more.

Whatever the case is, I see TRs as the time to experiment. Due whatever build on the forums catches your fancy, or make something up yourself. I'm typically a thorough planner, planning out feats and gear for everything, but occasionally I just wing it and make it up as I level. It is how I've done all the past lives that I have as it keeps things interesting for me. Though you can always lean on these forums. Have something you want to try but not sure if it will work? Just ask, and people are pretty good about picking it apart and helping you improve it.

[Fedora1]

I thought you need 15 for a past life? :confused:

Nope, just the most levels in whatever class, and in case of a tie (like 10/10) you go with the "Dominant Class" list here: https://ddowiki.com/page/Past_Life_Feats


Dominant class

When you perform a Heroic or Iconic True Reincarnation, your character gains the Past Life of your dominant class, the class that is shown as your character's class icon in parties. This is determined by:

the class you have the most levels of.
In the case of a tie, the dominant class is the first listed on this list (the one with the lowest number):

Barbarian
Bard
Cleric
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Sorcerer
Wizard
Monk
Favored Soul
Artificer
Warlock
Druid

That is: alphabetical for the original 9 classes, then new classes added at the end in (rough*) order of release.source

* Warlock is dominant over Druid when their levels are tied, despite Druid being released before Warlock.

So if you were a Monk L10/Druid L10 your past life would be monk. But if you were a Monk L10/ Wizard L10, your past life would be wizard.

[Fedora1]

TL;DR - Handwraps have additional utility of Stunning Fist and are the weapon of the best Monk tree, Shintao. You can easily beat the DPS of handwraps, especially in heroics (almost everything does now due to the class feature being deleted) due to many great modified crit profile and base damage weapons. And as DPS is king, especially if you have a caster handling the CC for you, you may like other weapon options more.

Whatever the case is, I see TRs as the time to experiment. Due whatever build on the forums catches your fancy, or make something up yourself. I'm typically a thorough planner, planning out feats and gear for everything, but occasionally I just wing it and make it up as I level. It is how I've done all the past lives that I have as it keeps things interesting for me. Though you can always lean on these forums. Have something you want to try but not sure if it will work? Just ask, and people are pretty good about picking it apart and helping you improve it.

Appreciate all of your reply DrawingGuy, shortened it down here for sake of space.

I haven't made a step-by-step planned out build in a long time. I usually get a general idea and make sure I get any leveling order or pre-reqs when needed, and then go with it. Worst that usually happens is I forget something and have to wait an extra level to get "that thing" I wanted. Heroics is pretty forgiving like that.

I see what you are saying about daggers + vistani, but with the new Knights Training feat longswords are looking pretty good too.

I'll be honest here, the main reason I want to avoid hand wraps is inventory space and laziness. Since I haven't done a monk yet, I have zero hand wraps and really don't want to farm them and then make space in my inventory.

Whereas I already have khopeshes, long swords, staves, and daggers. :)

[Whitering]

I will play the fighter build proposed herein, doing Monk lives to get my DPS up as an Artificer, did the ranger ones already, this is a pew pew character, not going to bother with spell dcs. In any case, I am going to dual wield Banhammers, I did that once already and it was pretty funny.

[Fedora1]

Kind of a follow-up question... In case you couldn't tell I am kind of leaning toward longswords, but the question could apply in a more general sense anyway.

Which would be better (overall and in general), a pair of Morninglords, a pair of T2 Thunderforged (probably with 1st degree burns and dragons edge, or maybe paralyzing fear), or one of each? I don't have the ingredients for T3 TF.

Also, favorite rubies for the red slots?

[Grailhawk]

I don't know if this can work and don't have the time to figure it out right now, but

9 Monk 6 Fighter, 5 Ranger

Whirling Steel Strike + Knights Training centered with longswords
23 AP Kensei for +1 Crit Multiplier (Core 3) and Opportunity Attack
40 AP Tempest Tier 5 (Skip Evasive Dance)
04 AP Shinto for Deft Strikes
11 AP Ninja Shadow Veil

Not going to brakes any DPS records but might (maybe i don't know) be good enough.

[Fedora1]

40 AP Tempest Tier 5 (Skip Evasive Dance)


If you're going 40 AP in tempest, wouldn't you want to go 41 and get the Dervish capstone?

+4 Dexterity. +25% chance to doublestrike with your off-hand while dual wielding. While wearing light or no armor: +10 Melee Power, Physical Resistance Rating, and Magical Resistance Rating.

Pfhhttt nevermind, not thinking straight. Must be L20 ranger for capstone. Duh.... :/

[Grailhawk]

If you're going 40 AP in tempest, wouldn't you want to go 41 and get the Dervish capstone?

+4 Dexterity. +25% chance to doublestrike with your off-hand while dual wielding. While wearing light or no armor: +10 Melee Power, Physical Resistance Rating, and Magical Resistance Rating.

Yes but then your not a monk, thought you were looking for a mostly monk with weapons not wraps? Tempest Tier 5 is one of the best Tier 5's even without the awesome cores. Ninja Spy is a really weak tree past 11 AP for a melee weapons user Tempest and Kensai are pretty strong IMO Tempest is stronger.

[Vish]

Fedora,
There are 3 basic monks, 4 if you count shuri
Shintao are wraps, have best cc in game
Henshin are staffs, got nerfed hard, but decent cleave damage
Ninja are shortsword, and generally suck. Never see ninja builds
Shuri are chuckers, use ninja tree, only good at cap

Now, I recently did some elf pl, as ranger monk
So yes, you can go pure monk with longswords
But their trees don't really support sword dps
So I went ranger and splashed monk
To use tier5 tempest, dual wield longswords

So if you go heroics, I suggest something like 14/5/1 monk ranger rogue
The last two levels of heroic don't count so you can get 12 monk out of it
If you go epics, I would suggest like 15/5 monk ranger
You get tier5 tempest, and you get quivering palm at 15 monk
I built my ranger monk as wisdom build, using falconry
But you could also go dex, as ninja gives you dex to hit and damage
But if you want your quivering palm to work, best go wisdom
Also monk gets wisdom to AC, so some buffage

But you can totally do longswords with whirling steel strike
And tempest gives you the dual wield adds
So pretty decent dps
At 20 you can sentient oath blades,
That's what I used until 29, when I got the barovian longswords
Should be a decent build, if your just going to 30 and tr

Anyways, if you need a build, let me know

Edit
Oh ya, and prob go aasimar
Best for wis build,
And the healing hands are game changer for melee

[Fedora1]

If you go epics, I would suggest like 15/5 monk ranger
You get tier5 tempest, and you get quivering palm at 15 monk
I built my ranger monk as wisdom build, using falconry
But you could also go dex, as ninja gives you dex to hit and damage
But if you want your quivering palm to work, best go wisdom
Also monk gets wisdom to AC, so some buffage

How good is quivering palm, versus say 2 rogue splash?



But you can totally do longswords with whirling steel strike

I'm just concerned that Dance of Flowers (according to wiki) doesn't work on longswords with whirling steel. Is it not a big deal?



And tempest gives you the dual wield adds
So pretty decent dps
At 20 you can sentient oath blades,
That's what I used until 29, when I got the barovian longswords
Should be a decent build, if your just going to 30 and tr


Edit
Oh ya, and prob go aasimar
Best for wis build,
And the healing hands are game changer for melee

Yeah I love Aasimar and Scourge, done 3 of each already. Current one (scourge) is a pure tempest wisdom falconry build dual wielding oathblades (one sentient) just hit L29 and pulled out the Morninglords to see how they do.

[Fedora1]

Yes but then your not a monk, thought you were looking for a mostly monk with weapons not wraps? Tempest Tier 5 is one of the best Tier 5's even without the awesome cores. Ninja Spy is a really weak tree past 11 AP for a melee weapons user Tempest and Kensai are pretty strong IMO Tempest is stronger.

Yep, you quoted me too soon. I corrected myself about 2 seconds after I posted. lol

[Vish]

How good is quivering palm, versus say 2 rogue splash?




I'm just concerned that Dance of Flowers (according to wiki) doesn't work on longswords with whirling steel. Is it not a big deal?




Yeah I love Aasimar and Scourge, done 3 of each already. Current one (scourge) is a pure tempest wisdom falconry build dual wielding oathblades (one sentient) just hit L29 and pulled out the Morninglords to see how they do.

Ya, qp is based on like half monk level I think
Idk on my pure with killer instinct I can hit 100
Less 5 or 7 levels should be 3-4 less?
Idk I just qp on pure monks, never really tried a splash

As to dance, yes you get the 1.5 with longswords
Just did a ranger monk build, see soulrazor in ranger
Used longswords, had Wss, twisted dance, it worked

Ya on second thought of the 15/5 split
It may be better to go 14/6 monk fighter
For the +1 multi in core 3 of fighter
I didn't think that part
Still get tier5 ftr which is pretty good
I was running ranger monk, and the 12 core rng you get the multi, or the threat
That's why I did my elf life as ranger,
Plus I wanted to see longswords
You can look at those prototype builds in
Vishs book of the dead, in custom builds

[unbongwah]

2. Are longswords are a good option for a monk? Would going with L6 fighter using longswords with Knights Training feat + Kensai 3rd Core "Strike With No Thought" and the Kensai T5 "One with the Blade" work, or does that lock out better T5 monk enhancements?
With the Whirling Steel Strike feat you don't need One with the Blade, so you could take a different tier-5. E.g., Ninja's for Touch of Death or Henshin's for Void Strike.

Not saying it's any better, just an alternative.

4. Are there other options like staves?
Sure: rogue / monk is the obvious combo for a heroic-only build so you can take Acrobatics (+15% attack speed).

[Fedora1]

As to dance, yes you get the 1.5 with longswords
Just did a ranger monk build, see soulrazor in ranger
Used longswords, had Wss, twisted dance, it worked

Cool, thanks for the confirmation.


Ya on second thought of the 15/5 split
It may be better to go 14/6 monk fighter
For the +1 multi in core 3 of fighter
I didn't think that part
Still get tier5 ftr which is pretty good
I was running ranger monk, and the 12 core rng you get the multi, or the threat
That's why I did my elf life as ranger,
Plus I wanted to see longswords
You can look at those prototype builds in
Vishs book of the dead, in custom builds

Since I may do 3 monk lives (assuming I like the first one well enough) I might try the elf ranger version. Right now leaning toward the Aasimar fighter.

[Fedora1]

With the Whirling Steel Strike feat you don't need One with the Blade, so you could take a different tier-5. E.g., Ninja's for Touch of Death or Henshin's for Void Strike.

Not saying it's any better, just an alternative.

I was just concerned about the wiki warning that says Dance of Flowers didn't work with Whirling Steel, so I thought One w/ Blade to be safe. But Vish says it does work, so this could be an option.




Sure: rogue / monk is the obvious combo for a heroic-only build so you can take Acrobatics (+15% attack speed).

I did an acrobat build some time ago, have a lot of staves, including a pair of heroic Elemental Blooms. Might save this for a third option.

[janave]

If Henshin was not nerfed so bad to cut back on Shintao, it would be the ideal Monk Past Life tree, qstaves have some nice aoe range, having little aoe on a leveling build is usually what makes it extra painful :).

12 Monk, 5 Rogue, 3 Wizard (EK)

Leveling order is hard to determine, 1R, 1W, then probably Monks in 3/6/9/ and filling in with more Rogue and Wizard as you go.

[Saekee]

If splashing for a weaponized monk, you really want 6 fighter for the multiplier. Your advantage over wraps is the crit profile so good to dwell on that. That eliminates QP. 2 rogue gets traps xp and access to W&Scroll mastery (and faster sneaking if you stralth) but your AP will be really strained. You could also stack up ninja poison and venomed blades but most mobs will be dead quite fast

12 monk for abundant step, master of forms, faster movement, 6 fighter then whatever

The trouble with ninja is that tier5 kensai is so good. The crit profile with longswords & shortswords will be the same. It is the kama (ignoring shurikens) that gets double-boosted by ninjas. Before Knight’s Training, the Brush hook was the flavor darling and would get a 13-20/3 crit profile (the devs messed around with this, not sure where it is sitting now—same as swash anyway but you need either the capstone or 6 kensei for the extra multiplier to get to /4). they also bypass practically all DR. Now, named longswords (2 in heroics) will do the same-ish (I think they will be 14-20?) and have a better multi. The hooks can be for late heroics DR breaking and you might even have some fun with the Lost at Sea sets.

I suspect that in heroics, the numbers are better to do ninja spy for the doublestrike but in endgame, so much ds is redundant to gear etc. and touch of death gets too weak.

TBH whenever I have weaponized monks (even staffless) I do tier 5 henshin for SCEWL from 12-19 for the group heal—it is just so convenient/lifesaving and stuff dies fast anyway.

Finallt, there is a flavor monk that is SWF with longswords and focuses on the unobstructable Void Strike. Void Strike kills everything except named mobs—even bypasses deathblock. PSWF will have it proc on a 19-20 and it is a hoot. In the meantime you then do LCEWS and neg level everything, really fun.

Don’t forget to look into Falconer.

[Mindos]

Other weapon options face the fact that other classes are simply better at them. Not only are their trees stronger, but they have class features to bolster them as well. Currently Monk has no class feature as it was deleted a few months back in the name of a 10% DPS nerf to unarmed at end game.

Handwrap DPS itself has had a rollercoaster though:

1. They were a bit behind originally, so they bolstered them a bit with Reinforced Fist items and TOD rings and were fine.
2. Then the weapon multiplier system happened and handwraps fell near the bottom of weapon options.
3. It was like this for years until U33 when they weaponized handwraps. However they overshot it a bit loading a ton of Melee Power in Henshin and then releasing extremely overpowered handwraps which shot Handwrap DPS to the top.
4. Unfortunately a player that exploits to min-max his DPS posted some videos (which he did use exploits on adding extra Ws, extra attack/damage, and some TR shenanigans... all unlisted of course so most players don't realize it) on a character with every past life and high reaper points. This left a skew in people's minds that remains to this day that seems Devs latched onto as well.

I still, and always will, think the Devs should have handled the last nerf differently and will hope, no matter how fruitlessly, that they roll back the nerf of a class feature that has existed since 1st edition, but I've digressed a fair bit.

(I edited your post a bit to highlight/focus on some parts.)

I agree with you. However, Monks had innate die step increases, but handwraps weren't "real" weapons. Now that handwraps have been rewritten and made actually weapons, the core feature of Monk, the die step increase, was removed. I don't think it was right either. Although I can see the argument for "why", I think the argument fails for one simple reason:

1. Handwraps are a MONK weapon. Period. Sure, you can do this or that, blah blah. But it's a monk weapon. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
(Since it's a monk weapon, much much more so than for example a bow is a ranger weapon if you think about it, only a rune-arm comes close to being a class only weapon like handwraps are):
2. Then the monk should get die increases.
3. Follow the above, logically the only handwraps that matter are named handwraps. No one cares about the random gen, at all. Since we're talking named items only, they can AND SHOULD be specially made with the Monks die step increase in mind.
4. Since there's no chance of any other class using a named handwrap, let alone some trash random gen handwrap, and doing any kind of dps whatsoever, I think its obvious that Monk should be restored to its former style, and the handwraps should be altered not the class.

I am NOT throwing stones here, and I mean no insult, (I love you all, I really do!) But in my humble opinion, this entire debacle started when the loot designer tragically misunderstood Monk/Handwrap defacto exclusivity, and as you stated "a class feature that has existed since 1st edition." Granted, the handwrap change from funky implementation to actually weapon occured at just about the same time, and confusion reigned all the about the lands and realms, but it was a mistake. And this mistake was compounded by the slow* drip, drip of further nerfs to Duality (which is, as I stated above, a NAMED handwrap- and the crux of the issue :) ) until the final dropped from space NerfHammer of the Gods altering of Monks innately.

Sure, I could make a handwrap using pure ranger, or fighter, or whatever. All with zero monk levels. Could compare the DPS numbers, etc. But why? Handwraps are a monk weapon. It doesn't matter how the handwraps used to be coded/are coded now because it makes no difference to the non-Monk classes. So since its realisticly Monk only, and it's realisticly named handwraps only, the measured, zen like approach should be named handwrap releases that are not as quoted above "extremely overpowered."

I think an underlying part of the problem is the homogenization of loot creation and weapon systems in DDO nowadays. The tools we use are there to help us, but all too often the new tools are self hand-cuffing and limiting- trapping us in a hard and fast smaller and smaller walled garden of lesser and lesser variety. There needs to be exceptions. Not all classes are the same, not all loot has to be the same. If one type needs 5 effects, or needs a 1W while all the others in a pack get 12w, then so be it. Casting "Rigid Systems" on a game that seeks to encapsulate imagination- which by definition is the unknown, the new, the wondrous- And it's kinda hard to have those qualities when everything is the old square pegs for square holes, round goes in round, four blocks for four spaces, but the colors must always match kind of "Rigid Thinking".

Thanks for reading all this, and sorry for the rant. (I'm on pain pills from surgery)

*I wrote slow because although the named handwrap needed nerfed, albeit in a much greater amount, the nerfs were actually minor- indicative of the misunderstanding of the die step relationship continuing. Honestly, this was a difficult time to measure and make loot changes. As stated in the OP above, there where indeed some exploits occuring, one of which made EVERY attack from a Monk a Critical Hit, skewing the numbers stratospherically.

I don't think I could honestly have done a better job with all of this going on. It was a trying and hectic time. Both with the signature Ravenloft pack being released and maintained, and with trying to close loopholes and exploits. All the while trying the sisyphean task of balance and order to the game. My hope is that after all this time has passed, we can revisit and amend our mistakes, or at least have an honest full understanding of what occured and therefore an honest discussion of what we all wish to change or at least see moving forward. -Apoligies and thanks again.

[hombokai]

Personally I wish they kept the innate monk dice and just truly made handwraps a centered 1hb weapon with all the limitations to monks therein.

[DrawingGuy]

I do hope they revisit, but I do think it is important that they do not look at the weapon values in a vacuum. There are class features to consider - Rogue SA die, Ranger FE, Fighter specializations, etc - that are all factors, and I see Monk 2.5 handwrap scaling to be in that same vein. There were multiple other extra sources of Handwrap [W] (Improved Martial Arts, Monk PL, Reinforced Fist items) that could have been tapped to do the same tweak as well. My biggest frustration was that it was an edict with all discussion and concerns ignored. I think if they actually allowed for discussion, looked at other options, or took a deeper look at the outlier cases of extreme Monk DPS to see exactly why they were outlier cases (and closed those exploits instead), the Monk die nerf would have been avoided.

While the Devs here are better about listening to the player base than most games, they don't have a history of rolling back changes like this. But if hundreds of posts when the nerf was happening didn't work, what will now?