Looking for a staff build

[aGarde]

I was looking to do a staff build, mostly to just TR with a few lives for fun. I have the TOEE paralyzing staff, and for a L7, it's a pretty nice staff.. seems it would work into the mid-teens.

The lives are for racial PL, and I know the current gig is sorc or rogue assassin, but I didn't want to run the same life over and over. I just did 3 human warlock, and want something "different". Never done staffs, and haven't really found any staff build I hadn't already thought about.. so.. coming here..

Any thoughts on a R1/2 heroic staff build that can solo if needed? (I do prefer groups, but can't always get them).

Tx

[banjo174]

I was looking to do a staff build, mostly to just TR with a few lives for fun. I have the TOEE paralyzing staff, and for a L7, it's a pretty nice staff.. seems it would work into the mid-teens.

The lives are for racial PL, and I know the current gig is sorc or rogue assassin, but I didn't want to run the same life over and over. I just did 3 human warlock, and want something "different". Never done staffs, and haven't really found any staff build I hadn't already thought about.. so.. coming here..

Any thoughts on a R1/2 heroic staff build that can solo if needed? (I do prefer groups, but can't always get them).

Tx

Honestly... Staves aren't in the best place as of late, however I am not sure how much better you can get, than doing pure rogue. *shrugs*, it does depend on what you want to do. If you are just TRing at level 20, then there are better options for staff builds, however if you are going to level 30, nothing will compare to just doing a pure rogue.

If you are looking to just TR at level 20 however... The generic rule is to have at least 4 levels of rogue in the build. This will get you QUICK STRIKES from thief acrobat, as well as, KILLER from assassin. Although it really depends on what you want in the build.

Some could argue that assassins trick is very useful so you could go 6 levels of rogue to get that from the assassin tree. A lot of the speed leveling potential will come from fighter and barbarian levels though. These 2 classes just add so much in terms of survivability and DPS.

Fighter adding things like
Feats
Melee Power
Liquid courage
Extra Action boosts
Stalwart Defense
Critical Multiplier & Threat range

Barbarian Adding things like
An extra cleave
Blood Tribute (Enough to keep me alive in r1 level 1-20)
Sprint boost
+2W from crazy strikes.

It is really just what you want, do you want level 1-20, or level 1-30.

[Tilomere]

Nerfed in update 42, taking build down. Also don't believe nerfs to pure classes due to multiclassing is healthy for game.

[C-Dog]

I haven't broken down the details, but a build that was highly recommended (and from a reliable source) is an 18 Monk, 1 Rogue, 1 Druid Henshin monk.

To (mostly) quote...


"... tons of healing every 6 seconds as well as stellar defenses... Dex-based makes you pretty much immortal in heroics it seems, and that build does an absolutely stupid amount of damage.

Rogue first for attack speed with q-staves. Take the level of Druid whenever for Ram's Might and Shillelagh, and the rest into Monk. DEX based in Wind Stance - just does bonkers damage in heroics, you can clear most mobs entirely with both cleaves. Dark monk so that you can get Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light and just so much healing which is helpful even in reaper.

If you want to optimize then you'd do at least 4 Rogue levels just for the staff damage enhancements in Acrobat - the damage ends up being just insane with that and you only really need 6 Monk for Shadow Fade anyway. I just like getting Abundant Step asap, and I use the Freezing Ice Blood and Karmic Strike enough to just go Monk instead."

Haven't tried it myself, but on that endorsement I'm a'gonna!

[askrj1]

Acrobat is pretty well self-contained, your main issue will be lack of access to healing. I personally had no trouble running low reapers on a pure acro with a heal hire, but quarterstaves is also the longest time I've ever spent with any single weapon in the game so YMMV.

Tilo knows his soundburst well, and some of the other selfheal capable builds sound solid. Otherwise I went for a pure dex build with precision and no PA/cleaves, let me know if that still sounds like your sort of thing, I'll post what I remember of the build.

[aGarde]

Tilo knows his soundburst well, and some of the other selfheal capable builds sound solid. Otherwise I went for a pure dex build with precision and no PA/cleaves, let me know if that still sounds like your sort of thing, I'll post what I remember of the build.

yes, always interested. Wisdom, Dex, or Str are what i'm considering. Not sure how to sonic stun lock mobs w/o some levels of caster tho. {edit} I brain farted the stun lock thing. I get it with the cleric levels. :)

For a pure dex build, do you go whirlwind attack then? A quick build looked like I couldn't get I.Crit until L15, which seems late in the game. Wondering if the TOEE staff works all the way to L20.

[askrj1]

yes, always interested. Wisdom, Dex, or Str are what i'm considering. Not sure how to sonic stun lock mobs w/o some levels of caster tho. {edit} I brain farted the stun lock thing. I get it with the cleric levels. :)

For a pure dex build, do you go whirlwind attack then? A quick build looked like I couldn't get I.Crit until L15, which seems late in the game. Wondering if the TOEE staff works all the way to L20.

Human Rog20
Str 12 (will need +5 tome)
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8

1 Dodge Mobilty
3 Precision
6 THF
9 Spring attack
12 IC:B
15 ITHF
18 GTHF

Rog feats Opportunist, Imp. Evasion, Slippery Mind, Defensive Roll
If you don't intend to run much epics/legendary it's ok to drop the feat and related enhancement.

Only cleave I used was the acrobat Sweeping Strikes. Glances are -ok- unless you're running higher reapers and bring spare staves because they break quick. If you don't have a spare E. Bloom things like Theurgic staff (expanded crit, adamantine) are easy to get, works as a secondary weapon and golem beater. Light Unending (from Archon's Trial) is an absolute beast when doing outsider content. Dreamspitter is good for oozes and rusties (glass).

You should have some usable AC in heroics (better still if you have your martial lives done), plus some dodge should give you relatively decent durability. Hood of Unrest + Imp Uncanny are good for some dodge bursts during beatdowns. You -will- need to bring a pocket healer or be prepared to back out sometimes for serious heal scrolling.

Reflexes and trap skills so traps are completely no brainer.

EDIT: Enhancements is essentially anything that doesn't look useless on acrobat tree + assassin's trick, most others are optional and tweaks for epics such as shifting haste boost to LD and taking KTA for additional damage/Dire DC.

EDITEDIT: Barring any major changes to TA and staves this is probably/roughly what I will be going back to again at some point, but I'm already done with Rogue and Human lives so might be a while... or I might do it on a different race with some feat/stat tweaks.

[cru121]

For novelty, you could also consider Rog 2 / Wizard 18 EK, int-based. Staves are all about fast attack speed, and the extra elemental damage on hit synergizes nicely.

[askrj1]

For novelty, you could also consider Rog 2 / Wizard 18 EK, int-based. Staves are all about fast attack speed, and the extra elemental damage on hit synergizes nicely.

I actually had that idea for a bit to use for a wiz life at some point, but kind of backed out of it after some feat and gearing issues testing a khopesh SWF EK... though I did try to squeeze more casting than what the build was worth, so if you just played straight melee I guess it wouldn't be too hard.

[AbyssalMage]

Banjo174 states, q-staffs are not in a good place. That being said, probably the best staff build I have seen remains 18/2 Rogue/Monk.

Rogue, Monk, Monk, Rogue....

Going on memory :(

Max Dex + level ups

Halfling allows you to use Healing Mark (if for racials).
Elf gives you Displacement.
Take DM @1, Precision @2, and Spring Attack @9

Aasimar - LoH
Dragonborn - Take a hit to Dex :( but AoE elemental spell damage

1 - Precision
2m - THF
3 - Dodge
3m - Mobility
6 - Adept of Forms
9 - iTHF (or Spring Attack)
12 - IC: Bludgeon
15 - Master of Forms
18 - GMoF

The biggest draw back you are going to face is that q-staffs durability is horrible. You have great defensive and single target offensive capabilities though.

[aGarde]

I see both builds going with THF, but I'm wondering if whirlwind isn't better.. especially with the way the game throws "mobs" at you. I also like the 2 monk version when playing with different builds in the builder. Fighter looked ok for a 3rd class, but I don't think the crit bonuses from kensai stack with the rogue enhancement.

[Vish]

I still think best staff is pure henshin
But it's mostly for epics with cauldron of flame
You also get instakill in quivering palm
Thf with pa and cleaves
Whirlwind is for wraps

[banjo174]

Banjo174 states, q-staffs are not in a good place. That being said, probably the best staff build I have seen remains 18/2 Rogue/Monk.

Rogue, Monk, Monk, Rogue....

Going on memory :(

Max Dex + level ups

Halfling allows you to use Healing Mark (if for racials).
Elf gives you Displacement.
Take DM @1, Precision @2, and Spring Attack @9

Aasimar - LoH
Dragonborn - Take a hit to Dex :( but AoE elemental spell damage

1 - Precision
2m - THF
3 - Dodge
3m - Mobility
6 - Adept of Forms
9 - iTHF (or Spring Attack)
12 - IC: Bludgeon
15 - Master of Forms
18 - GMoF

The biggest draw back you are going to face is that q-staffs durability is horrible. You have great defensive and single target offensive capabilities though.

If youre going 18/2... You might as well multi class more. You are giving up the 20th core from rogue which is a HUGE addition, letting you dps 2 things at once, instead of 1 thing, basically doubling your dps.

Not to mention the added 5% attack speed, added 2 sneak attack dice, among other things.

When looking at over all dps power with staves... Nothing beats a pure rogue.


That being said, there are builds that are more survivable with staves... But something you have to consider is, a lot of the dps potential from staves, since the weapon sucks. Is from the speed and sneak attack from that speed. So, any loss in these 2 areas will hurt your dps badly.

[Thrudh]

You need 2 levels of Rogue for Thief Acrobatics (15% q-staff attack speed) and Quick Strike (25% doublestrike) and Haste Boost is great too.

You can get Quick Strike from 2 levels of monk as well, but you miss out on Thief Acrobatics, so I'd go with Rogue.

Plus trap skills are good.

After that you can do what ever you want. Fighter levels, monk levels, barbarian levels.

If I was you I'd do two levels of barbarian for blood tribute.. That 150 temp hp is huge in reaper.

So 2/2 rogue/barb, and then whatever you want... more rogue, more barb, fighter, whatever. A raging barb/rogue with a q-staff is pretty solid. So is a tactics-based fighter/rogue.

[banjo174]

If I was you I'd do two levels of barbarian for blood tribute.. That 150 temp hp is huge in reaper.

Agreed, Blood Tribute is super powerful. Its enough healing for me to get through 1-20 without anything else. Also, its a nice cushion of HP in epics, using blood tribute and cocoon for the temp HP.

[aGarde]

thanks, this is just a "for fun heroics build".. I'm not taking it to L30, although I'll probably go to 21 or 22 as I'm trying to get tokens to TR. Doing the same build over and over is not my idea of fun. I'm doing racial past lives for a bit, then will take something to 30, but I kinda refuse to do 15 lives of the same build.

I like the idea of barb tossed in. I did 2 monk for some extra monkey stuff, and the 2 extra feats. I'll have to go revisit this. thanks!

[askrj1]

thanks, this is just a "for fun heroics build".. I'm not taking it to L30, although I'll probably go to 21 or 22 as I'm trying to get tokens to TR. Doing the same build over and over is not my idea of fun. I'm doing racial past lives for a bit, then will take something to 30, but I kinda refuse to do 15 lives of the same build.

I like the idea of barb tossed in. I did 2 monk for some extra monkey stuff, and the 2 extra feats. I'll have to go revisit this. thanks!

If just for heroics I'd say play around a little, there's no reason you can't cap, just keep in mind your alignments for monk and barb.

[NemesisAlien]

I still think best staff is pure henshin
But it's mostly for epics with cauldron of flame
You also get instakill in quivering palm
Thf with pa and cleaves
Whirlwind is for wraps

I thought quivering palm is hands/wraps only? Stick can use it??? :confused:

[Yamani]

I thought quivering palm is hands/wraps only? Stick can use it??? :confused:

Since Update 19.

[askrj1]

Thf with pa and cleaves

I'm not a huge fan of using cleaves with sticks because the cleave animation is relatively slow compared to staff swings and cleaves do not proc doublestrike.

It might be a little better for monk but from experience a rogue main/pure build will not have enough feats between THF and the dodges to actually squeeze in PA/cleave, besides that precision gives you better to-hit and fort-pierce for the sneaks. You also can squeeze some AoE onto pure acrobats with the 2targets/hit after tumbling. If you can attain usable AC CE is also a nice bump for mitigation, which again locks out PA.

[aGarde]

What is the thinking between Adept/Master of forms (Wind Stance , +6/9 double strike) vs Improved/Greater 2-H fighting?

Currently, I'm looking to do a 18/2 Rogue/monk, 1st 3 levels rogue to get dex to damage, then 2 monk, rest rogue.. feats :
1) Power Attack
3) 2H Fighting
4) Precision
5) Dodge
6) Completionist
9) Mobility
12) IC:Bludgeon, Imp.Evasion
15) Imp. 2H fighting, Opportunist
18) Gtr. 2H fighting, Slippery Mind

While the forms seems enticing, the melee speed won't stack with items, and I'm likely to have items that boost melee speed.. I'd basically be losing out on the Double Strike.

I felt the +10 damage from Power attack would be huge in the lower levels. I didn't go with cleaves as the rogue enh. tree already has a couple cleave attacks.

Sad, but it looks like the best staff even at level 18 is the L7 TOEE staff. Hopefully the paralyzing still sticks ok at those levels!

[Tilomere]

What is the thinking between Adept/Master of forms (Wind Stance , +6/9 double strike) vs Improved/Greater 2-H fighting?

Currently, I'm looking to do a 18/2 Rogue/monk,

I think you are quibbling over relatively irrelevant amounts of damage.

I think you will be down a x2.25 damage multiplier due to lacking helpless on most mobs, down to a x1.25 multiplier on crits using highest durable available staves as you level instead of x1.7 multiplier with elemental bloom due to lacking stacked item defense, and down to x1.5 stat damage with dex instead of x2 stat damage from falconry with deadly instinct.

The net result is that if you have 50 base damage, and a 24 stat modifier by end of heroics:

Your dex build will multiply that 24 dex modifier by 1.5 to get 36 damage from dex, then add 50 base damage to get 86 base damage. Then it will multiply that by 1.25 for crit, and hit for 108 per hit by end of heroics (before melee power).

Heroic Soundburst Staffy will multiply that 24 wisdom modifier by 2 to get 48 damage from wisdom, then add 50 base damage to get 98. Then it will multiply that by 1.7 for crit, then multiply it again on most mobs by 2.25 for helpless, and hit most mobs for 375 by end of heroics, plus enable another 40 sneak damage due to helpless, and end up hitting for around 415 per hit by end of heroics (before melee power).

Wether or not 108 damage per hit by the end of heroics has more doublestrike or glancing blow damage is ... relatively irrelevant when you are already giving up 300 damage per hit (before melee power). The person in the group that doesn't give up 3/4ths of their damage like the pure sorc or warlock will end up killing most of the dungeon, and you will end up piking regardless.

This is also why people say cleaves, or heroic staff builds period, aren't good. When most people pike (on the most commonly suggested/used dex builds), then AoE piking with cleaves don't matter. But if you are annihilating things, then AoE annihilating things with cleaves is good times. People say cleaves with handwraps are terrible too, but when handwraps annihilate on hit in a similiar build, handwrap cleaves annihilate as well (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/497110-Kensei-Caster?p=6135217&viewfull=1#post6135217). Staff cleaves are way better than handwrap cleaves. (Edit)

[Coffey]

I think you are quibbling over relatively irrelevant amounts of damage.

I think you will be down a x2.25 damage multiplier due to lacking helpless on most mobs, down to a x1.25 multiplier on crits using highest durable available staves as you level instead of x1.7 multiplier with elemental bloom due to lacking stacked item defense, and down to x1.5 stat damage with dex instead of x2 stat damage from falconry with deadly instinct.

The net result is that if you have 50 base damage, and a 24 stat modifier by end of heroics:

Your dex build will multiply that 24 dex modifier by 1.5 to get 36 damage from dex, then add 50 base damage to get 86 base damage. Then it will multiply that by 1.25 for crit, and hit for 108 per hit by end of heroics (before melee power).

Heroic Soundburst Staffy will multiply that 24 wisdom modifier by 2 to get 48 damage from wisdom, then add 50 base damage to get 98. Then it will multiply that by 1.7 for crit, then multiply it again on most mobs by 2.25 for helpless, and hit most mobs for 375 by end of heroics, plus enable another 40 sneak damage due to helpless, and end up hitting for around 415 per hit by end of heroics (before melee power).

Wether or not 108 damage per hit by the end of heroics has more doublestrike or glancing blow damage is ... relatively irrelevant when you are already giving up 300 damage per hit (before melee power). The person in the group that doesn't give up 3/4ths of their damage like the pure sorc or warlock will end up killing most of the dungeon, and you will end up piking regardless.

This is also why people say cleaves aren't good on staff builds. If you are piking, then AoE piking with cleaves don't matter. But if you are annihilating things, then AoE annihilating things with cleaves is good times. People say cleaves with handwraps are terrible too, but when handwraps annihilate on hit in a similiar build, handwrap cleaves annihilate as well (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/497110-Kensei-Caster?p=6135217&viewfull=1#post6135217). Staff cleaves are way better than handwrap cleaves.

Does the 30% helpless damage from Acrobat stack with the 30% helpless damage from Falconry or any others?

Brutality: +20% when using a two-handed weapon
Bully: up to +15%
No Mercy: up to +30%
Sense Weakness: up to +30%

Edit: I read through your build again Tilo and i see you have both No Mercyx3. Half-orc for another 20% helpless from Brutality?

[Tilomere]

Everything stacks except rogue+monk No Mercy.

[Coffey]

Everything stacks except rogue+monk No Mercy.

Very cool build. Half-orc would be great for this build then.

[aGarde]

Thanks for the responses.. why 5 cleric.. is the item defense worth it, or for the extra spell pen?

[Tilomere]

yes.

[aGarde]

Howdy. I decided to try tilo's stun build, and it worked ok.. My character has all the necessary past lives to help make it work ( 3x sorc/fvs/wiz/cleric ) and when the sound burst stunned mobs, the damage was great. Stun, aoe attacks, everything is dead..

However, if I couldn't stun mobs, it could struggle. Due to being melee based vs caster based, my healing (of other players) was pretty bad.

The 2nd life was a 12/8 rogue/monk split, where I went 3 rogue, 2 monk, 9 more rogue, then rest monk. The damage isn't as high as the prior build when mobs were stunned, but higher when they aren't. Also, this build was far more survivable over all. When grouping, I could lead kill counts (when I bothered checking.. it's not a concern of mine, but I was interested for the build comparisons). If I wasn't leading the count, I was high up there so it was a decent dps build, but more of a single target vs aoe. Usually I get a single aoe trip and the rest of the party would obliterate the tripped mobs pretty quickly.

Solo running, I liked the rogue / monk split better than the rogue/cleric. It seemed more survivable and fared better when I couldn't, or didn't, stun mobs. But, like I mentioned earlier, the rogue/cleric was a beast against anything sound burst could stun.

My 3rd staff build is going to focus on monk over rogue. 3 rouge initially for the staff speed/dex to hit/damage (I may tweak the class leveling, we'll see) but then more monk to hit T5 in the monk tree for the void striking.. I want to see how that works vs the rogue T5. Will update when I finish that. I'm rather casual in my play and it takes me a bit to churn out a past life.

Oh, the race I went with was Half-elf. why? because I'm doing racials, and needed that one.. no other reason really :)

[Tilomere]

Ahh interesting. What difficulty level did you normally level in?

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I didn't read everything, but funnily there's a Host God emphasising staffs : Aureon.
Like in this : https://ddowiki.com/page/Follower_of_Aureon

[aGarde]

Ahh interesting. What difficulty level did you normally level in?

Usually run r1-3. With the cleric build I'd put points into reaper DC and SP. Doing more of a monk build now, and going to see how it compares. Only L8 atm. There is a lack of decent Q.staffs.. even the new content, L15 Q.Staff is not as strong as the L7 Elemental Bloom. They can't even get higher base damage :( I occasionally swap to a different one to break DR if needed.

When playing with a group, the tactic I'm favoring is to let a different melee person lead the charge, and have the mobs close in on him, then I do the AOE Trip attack.. between paralyze and trip, most of the mobs are out of the fight for a few seconds. In this time, the party usually takes them out pretty fast. For what I've solo'd, it's just fine soloing, but you do need a healer hire no matter which build you play.

It's a fun build, but I don't think it's "top tier". It holds it's own, is different/fun, but if you don't have an Elemental Bloom, it wouldn't be. I haven't taken it into epics either, and have no intentions of trying.

[jskinner937]

I was looking to do a staff build, mostly to just TR with a few lives for fun. I have the TOEE paralyzing staff, and for a L7, it's a pretty nice staff.. seems it would work into the mid-teens.

The lives are for racial PL, and I know the current gig is sorc or rogue assassin, but I didn't want to run the same life over and over. I just did 3 human warlock, and want something "different". Never done staffs, and haven't really found any staff build I hadn't already thought about.. so.. coming here..

Any thoughts on a R1/2 heroic staff build that can solo if needed? (I do prefer groups, but can't always get them).

Tx

Unfortunately for a staff build, you are going to have to borrow Mart McFly’s time machine and set the clock to Jan 1st, 2014.

[Viciouspika]

I have been playing an acrobat for years. It was the first toon I got to level 20 when that was the cap. So, I have a lot of named staffs still missing bloom though because I haven't farmed for it yet.

Henshin was the best one until they nerfed the melee power of the henshin tree. Now, 18 rogue is the sweet spot due to the 20% double strike for the level 18 core, but as long as you have a minimum of 2 levels of rogue for thief acrobatics for 15% double strike, quick strike enhancements, and can get critical modifiers from a different class(fighter, wizard, or barbarian). Your good. Otherwise 5 levels of rogue should be used or 5 levels of monk( I prefer 6 monk for shadow veil) for the +1 critical modifier and range. Feats: Precision, two handed fighting(all three), Improved critical; blunt, improved feint(always nice when you see spellcasters turn their back on you mid cast), and what every else you want. Items: make sure you have a deception item and/or an improved deception item especially if you take mostly rogue because sneak attacks is where a lot of your DPS comes from.

Another thing, I have noticed over the years, is its always good to splash at least one level of class that has an item protection in its enhancement tree to prevent your staffs from breaking(ie. fighter's stalwart defender, Paladin's sacred defender, ranger's tempest and Sorcerer/wizards eldritch knight tree). I have done a Paladin, fighter, cleric, monk, rogue, wizard, favored soul, and barbarian acrobats. They were fun in their own right. I'm currently running an 18 rogue/1barbarian/1wizard acrobat. Barbarian for run speed, Wizard for item protection and extended nightshield and protection from evil. With the changes to eldritch knight, next life will be 18 wizard/2rogue.

Good luck and have fun with your acrobat. I enjoy the animation of the attack sequence and have fun pulling Leroy Jenkins moments, but I survive.

[Garix]

Another thing, I have noticed over the years, is its always good to splash at least one level of class that has an item protection in its enhancement tree to prevent your staffs from breaking(ie. fighter's stalwart defender, Paladin's sacred defender, ranger's tempest and Sorcerer/wizards eldritch knight tree)

Just on the above bit I've cut out...no longer need to splash a class for access to Item Protection enhancement if you have the Falconry universal tree available to you. There a tier 2 option for it in that instead

[C-Dog]

improved feint...
I've always shyed away from this Feat due to the reported bug - is that not an issue, or that much of one? (Or does that section need editing?)

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Improved_Feint#Observed_behavior

[Viciouspika]

Garix that's good to know about the falconry enhancement tree.

C-Dog have not noticed the bugs on improved feint feat that are listed in the DDO wiki page. I have noticed that I may not get sneak attacks on some undead or constructs but they seem to turn away and discharge spells in wrong direction or attack open space. I know the bug was an issue a couple of years ago, but I have used it this last year and it seems to work.

[aGarde]

Last update!! After trying out 3 different builds ( soundburts, rogue T5, monk T5 ) I think the monk 12, rogue 8 build, going T5 henshin tree for the "Shadows can't exist", and going T4 in Thief Acrobat tree, is the strongest. The T5 henshin healing everyone around me for 150+ points every 8ish seconds was pretty nice, and double strike gets applied to it as well, so many times I was healing for 300+.

Was a fun set of lives. Don't try it w/o an elemental bloom tho :)

[aGarde]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/504608-Looking-for-a-staff-build

I tried out 3 different staff builds, and documented the results in that thread. It's fun, but I don't think it scales into epics due to lack of weapons, but I didn't take it into epics either.