In the battle against Invisizerg .. Players are winning??

[SiliconScout]

Just wanted to make sure that the Devs here are all aware that in their effort to try and kill invisizerg they have actually made it the optimal path.

The issue, and I am sure they know but just in case, is that if you "stealth" mobs spot you instantly. It doesn't matter if you have 1 point or 60 they will "see" you instantly and all rush you.

This means if you want to try and get past them without fighting just UMD an invis scroll or chug a pot and run until a champ or three spots you into Orange Alert. .. win because it's easy.

Then again the autospot and aggro on the stealthed guy makes for tanking a LOT easier. It is far more reliable than intimidate that is for sure and I have been (in a party) able to use this mechanic to kite a bunch of **** well away from the party where I can then chew on it while they rush the quest.

All in all I think, though the mechanics are broken and counter intuitive, it's a net win for us. I don't disagree that invisizerg should be seen as an issue but the manner in which it's been "addressed" is a net win for the players and generally hasn't slowed down runs at all, and in some cases made them faster in a group.

[Dread131313]

Just wanted to make sure that the Devs here are all aware that in their effort to try and kill invisizerg they have actually made it the optimal path.

The issue, and I am sure they know but just in case, is that if you "stealth" mobs spot you instantly. It doesn't matter if you have 1 point or 60 they will "see" you instantly and all rush you.

This means if you want to try and get past them without fighting just UMD an invis scroll or chug a pot and run until a champ or three spots you into Orange Alert. .. win because it's easy.

Then again the autospot and aggro on the stealthed guy makes for tanking a LOT easier. It is far more reliable than intimidate that is for sure and I have been (in a party) able to use this mechanic to kite a bunch of **** well away from the party where I can then chew on it while they rush the quest.

All in all I think, though the mechanics are broken and counter intuitive, it's a net win for us. I don't disagree that invisizerg should be seen as an issue but the manner in which it's been "addressed" is a net win for the players and generally hasn't slowed down runs at all, and in some cases made them faster in a group.

Stealth is so borked its not even funny. At least in heroics any way. I have like 37 hide, 32 move silently as a level 12 (with 1 level of WIZ) rogue. My skill in hide and move silently is not only capped, but i have hide and move silently items on my toon.

I cant get within 20 feet of a "ranger" type mob without them seeing me.

HOW IS THIS BALANCED...

I mean just try it. Without a friggin slew of past lives, or uber gear. Run Von3 at level and see how far you get before 3 rangers in a room full of mobs sees you and you have to contend with a **** ton of mobs on you because..... reasons?

Rogue stealth at heroic (maybe even in epic??) is so gimped, its almost useless.

At this point im thinking maybe its easier as a caster speccing into INVIZ since im hearing nothing but good things about it on this forum...

This game is a ****ING joke!

[hp1055cm]

No, in my experience on Heroic ELITE I can sneak within 5 feet of most mobs undetected. Some Champs (with heightened awareness) may see me if I get that close.
I don't make a habit of "Invis-zerging" and in my experience it just results in DA level 4 and huge fights that often result in near death experiences (on reaper).
I have been able to shake off some reapers by just keep-moving and they stop following me. This doesn't work with fear obviously, but fear will follow you until you break stealth.

In Reaper 1 at level I can still sneak past most ordinary mobs; with Champs I am detected a little more often and Reapers will sense me when I get within range.
Reapers do not auto see me - I can often pull them away without them alerting others nearby. Famine are the hardest, Fear are the easiest to deal with.
It is true that depending on the quest there is no other option except to engage and fight champs and reapers.
When I am built for stealth (I do not play as an "assasin") on an Arti build or Ranger I concider stealth quite effective in heroics on Elite and low reaper.

On my Current life as a Warlock, without any extra investment is hide or move silent I can still sneak effectively at times in Reaper 3 at level.
I Ran Yester Hill on Reaper 3 the other day, fought only the gate-keepers, the one group with spiders, and the final boss battle.
I pulled a fear reaper past the werewolves that rush out from the woods without dragging anyone else. There were 2 other reapers that I encountered and fought on the route.
Same life I ran Redwillow's on Reaper 3 at level and after stepping through portal was able to sneak past all the mobs, all giants,avoided 2 reapers without alerting, and engaged the final group of giants without fighting anyone else.
I achieved devious bonus on several quests at Reaper 3 at level, including Missing.
Lord Of Stone I can sneak through 85% of the quest; most Reapers I can pull around a corner and deal with along with a handful of mobs.

I do have trouble sneaking in some quests. The Claw of Vulkoor for instance I no longer run on Reaper because I get detected too often; on Elite no problem sneaking the whole quest after giants.
Von 3, Offering of Blood or any quest with Drow, it is too difficult to sneak undetected in reaper.


I do believe there is room for a healthy discussion about the mechanics of mob aggro and what should and should-not be possible to stealth.

[slarden]

All in all I think, though the mechanics are broken and counter intuitive, it's a net win for us. I don't disagree that invisizerg should be seen as an issue but the manner in which it's been "addressed" is a net win for the players and generally hasn't slowed down runs at all, and in some cases made them faster in a group.

"Inviszerg" was mostly a made up a problem. Fight avoidance primarily originated because of limited spell point pools and was never some problem area that needed attention. It was just another fake issue created on the forums that got the dev attention.

I am not saying people didn't run invis to avoid fights - they did and still do and always will look for ways to avoid fights as a tactic. I just don't think it should have been addressed in a way that wrecks another play style. It simply wasn't that big of a problem.


In Reaper 1 at level I can still sneak past most ordinary mobs; with Champs I am detected a little more often and Reapers will sense me when I get within range.
Reapers do not auto see me - I can often pull them away without them alerting others nearby. Famine are the hardest, Fear are the easiest to deal with.
It is true that depending on the quest there is no other option except to engage and fight champs and reapers.
When I am built for stealth (I do not play as an "assasin") on an Arti build or Ranger I concider stealth quite effective in heroics on Elite and low reaper.
I do believe there is room for a healthy discussion about the mechanics of mob aggro and what should and should-not be possible to stealth.

you very clearly do not understand what people mean when they talk about stealth play and the associated problems.

[hp1055cm]

you very clearly do not understand what people mean when they talk about stealth play and the associated problems.

I understand everything. Especially context.
I understand that some people prefer whimsical philosophical arguments instead of constructive discussions.
I understand that some people view everything through the prism of their own prejudiced perspective and have a strong inclination to make assumptions with little evidence of such.
I understand all too well that some people do not like a variety of opinion to compete with their own.

Hey, but thanks for the blunt, vague criticism. I rarely post twice in the same thread anyway so you didn't really need to bother. :rolleyes:

[janave]

They had to make room for auralock zerg (paid feature) which is identical mostly to invisi zerg you just dont have to be careful and still get more exp on the way. At least in heroics up to elite.

[Dread131313]

blah blah blah blah blah

Look dude, like i said.

Go to Von3 and try to sneak by the rangers. You cant!

Go to Ataraxia's, to Mineshaft IV.. Try to go into a room with one of the objectives, with 4 of the archers there. They are stealthed and will quickly see you.
You will aggro the whole room and have to run away. Then it will quickly create a orange or red alert, at which point youll have to drop down to the water or AFK for 20 minutes till it goes away. WHich is a huge waste of time. So you end up resetting the **** instance.

I am not just blowing smoke. And anyone arguing with me on this is totally jaded and not able to face the facts.

Like I said, they completely broke stealth.

Sure you can run stealthy repossesion, but guess what THERES NO STEALTH DETECTING MOBS (outside of reaper) IN THERE!.

Almost every **** zone past level 4 has mobs with stupidly high spot even on heroic and they will see you. Every time.

And by the way i dont zerg. I dont have 500 past lives, im not afforded the luxury to have 800hp at level 12 to zerg and have all the nice bonuses.

I am on life 3. And I am trying the hardest i can! I am faced with A.) group with scrubs who only want to run reaper ****. or B.) SOLO.

As a ROGUE I am trying to solo, and I try to do so very strategically, because as a dagger rogue, I cant just faceroll content like warlocks and other elitists can.

I am no able to "zerg" when solo. I am just trying to play my rogue the way A ROGUE SHOULD BE PLAYED. Very strategically. AND I CANT EVEN DO THAT BECAUSE THE STEALTH HATING DEVS IN THIS GAME HAVE TOTALLY ****ED ME OVER!!!!

[Dread131313]

It was just another fake issue created on the forums that got the dev attention.

The "silent minority", are those people. They do exist, whether people believe me or not. Ive seen them in every single **** game since 1999.

(1999) EverQuest: The silent minority who complained they couldnt get a manastone, to get into raids (at the time - hateplane and fearplane). Which caused the devs to nerf the manastone and the drop (removing from drop table completely). Also making it bind on character (NO DROP). THIS AFFECTED EVERYONE, INCLUDED THE PEOPLE WHO WERE JUST TRYING TO ENJOY THE GAME. (not raiders)

(2005- the foreseeable end of time): World of Warcraft: A plethora of uncalled for nerfs targetting several classes due to elitists who want to be the king of the elite hill and dont want anyone else succeeding after they exploited bugs or certain things to do with certain classes that were overpowered. The list goes on and on.

(2013 - 2015) Firefall: Certain battleframes/suits (classes) being more OP than others. Certain weapons crafted being more OP than others. Certain zones being farmable, which I was helping others with, all these got nerfed due to the silent minority. After all these changes were implemented, the game was shut down within a year or less. The same year these changes went in, all the employees did not get a paycheck during christmas, and had to wait a week after, because revenue was so bad.

(2013- current) Path of Exile: Certain builds being powerful allowing people to not really faceroll content - but be able to ACTUALLY ENJOY THE GAME and acquire some gear to enjoy the game more. Certain "twitch streamers" would showcase these builds and get the hype built up around them and get people to play/pay money to GGG, and then after a month or so GGG would nerf said builds into oblivion (sound familiar????).

These are just a small example of games that this has happened to. I am now considering the entire gaming industry as a whole, as a complete bait and switch scam. A scam which entices players/gamers to come and have fun, get them involved, and then they change something detrimentally due to a few whiners.

This hurts the MMO industry as a whole. It hurts programmers in the pocketbook when they have to be laid off, it hurts the image of gaming as a whole as well.

Ask yourself, what happened? Where did the boom go? We certainly had a boom for about 8 years from 2005 - 2013... Sure I am thinking some people grew up, but the people I have talked to told me they got tired of devs changing **** that made the game enjoyable.

I am getting sick of it too to be honest.

[Dread131313]

They had to make room for auralock zerg (paid feature) which is identical mostly to invisi zerg you just dont have to be careful and still get more exp on the way. At least in heroics up to elite.

Pretty much this.

See my previous post.

Now once they see that revenue is no longer lucrative to this endeavor they will nerf locks into uselessness JUST before coming out with another OP class to get gamers to shell out their sheckels..

See my bait and switch comment.

[Dread131313]

you very clearly do not understand what people mean when they talk about stealth play and the associated problems.

I 100% agree with you here chief. You can sit all day and try to explain it to "these people" all day and its like talking to a brick wall.

It's like they are so stuck in their logic and mentality, its like Mav in "Inception". No matter what he tried to do, he couldnt reason with her.

And you cant reason with these people either. They will NEVER see your point of view, and they will NEVER even try to see if you are right by doing their own testing.

All they do is put their hands over their ears and "NYAAAH! NYAAAH! NYAAAAH!! NYAAAH!!" repeatedly until you shut up.

It's sick, it really is. But its reality unfortunately.

[nokowi]

I do believe there is room for a healthy discussion about the mechanics of mob aggro and what should and should-not be possible to stealth.

We've already had 20 healthy discussion about stealth and agro.

It's been 2 years.

[Livmo]

J

The issue, and I am sure they know but just in case, is that if you "stealth" mobs spot you instantly. It doesn't matter if you have 1 point or 60 they will "see" you instantly and all rush you.

.

Although this may be true for allot of players, it does not match my in-game play or experience. You cannot make a blanket statement such as this.

I'm currently playing 8 arty and 12 ranger.

I'm not going to write a paper here, but you can stealth your way through most game content, even in reaper if you know how to do it.

The one tidbit I will give is to slow down your game play and not rush through content. I have, and do at times, sneak up on Reapers and get the drop on them. It's house-to-house and room-to-room combat.

Keep in mind forum peeps do not represent the whole player base as well.

[Livmo]

The "silent minority", are those people. They do exist, whether people believe me or not. Ive seen them in every single **** game since 1999.

I snipped the rest, but good points.

Folks on the forums whinned so much about NPC Lightening Sphere, it got neutered for us that use the spell. I'm not saying that some adjustment should not have been made, but it was a bit of an over correction on DDO's part based on player feedback.

The thing is people want the game changed to fit their play style instead of adjusting their play style to match the game.

I did not have a problem with NPC Lightening Sphere before it got changed, because I adapted to it. Thus I didn't suffer years of beat down from it like others, regardless of the build I was playing at the time. I would find it funny to watch while pugging, esp. in the Anniv. event to see people suffer from it. You can use terrain, spell absorbtion, or just simply anticipate the cast and move out of the way.