10/10 Wiz/Cleric or Wiz/Dru possible or feasible?

[LamiaCritter]

I know next to nothing about build theory or anything like that. I don't know anything about class optimization or anything. Very little about tomes, reincarnation, etcetera.
Though my question is fairly basic.
Would it be possible to do a 10/10 Wizard/ Cleric, or Wizard/ Druid? How feasible or possible would it be?
I'm not entirely concerned with epic destinies because I've never reached that level >.>

[Kutalp]

Hi.


This is my humble response to your question. ( Also a great wall of text if you excuse me )


It is possible to do any kind of hotrod combo with the Universal enhancement trees and physical class trees. But...


The viability of comboing two caster classes under lvl 15-17 is highly questionable. Becasue of the Dice check against the npc opponents is rolled over it. Heigten Metamagic helps up to a point. Harper tree enhancement and item bonuses also help.


Anyhow the rough fact is; your Caster level is calculated with your total number of levels at Cleric or Wizard class. So the total caster level through combining different caster classes ,sadly, does not function fair enough at DDO.


The monsters get better Dice rolls as the adventuring areas level up further. Certain types of monsters also require spell penetration against their spell resistance rolls.


Someone can combine Vampire Palemaster wizard with Spellsinger Bard but the bonus from either classes will be minor and mostly flavor other than the level drain immunity etc from vampire or stronger enchantment and enthrall bonus from Spellsinger. So the player needs to choose one of them as the main caster for Caster level Dice roll. Use the other for other bonuses or overlapping ,small bonuses.


The bonus from wizard would be the Metamagic feats and AOE effect to control the npcs (especially through heightened SLAs).Dimension door, Teleport. The bonus from Cleric would be extra spell points (shared spell point pool), Alignment base spells, Positive Healing or Stronger Negative healing for Palemaster through Cleric Negative spell focus. Also the Cleric Domains.


For each level lost to the other class and Spell casting Dice Check you would need extra powerfull items, ongoing Metamagic feats, Domains and ability scores at two ability scores to the extreme.


Alignment based spells, Force type spells (Magic missile and variations) has better chances if you are also casting the offensive spells against 'thrash mobs' with said items and overlapping bonuses from same scholl focus bonuses. (Such as Necromancy focus Domain and Spell focus feats and Spell penetration with Heighten Metamagic feat allways on.+8 ability tomes for both Wisdom and Intelligence. All DC and Spell penetration items and active clickies activated when casting offensive spells)...


Even then this is pretty much impossible to be effective at Reaper settings with 10 cleric/10 wizard. (Unless the Developers introduce a universal tree that lets us combine all Spell casting class Dice Check rolls, rolled at the same time...We have +1 DC to all spells which means from all resorces and classes from Harper Enhancement tree. The same T5 enhancement also has an active 5 min cooldown +10 to dc all spells but that cooldown is too long. It still helps the issue a bit...It could be better...




I think and wish this could be overcome with a universal tree; such as Harper tree got a revamp to empower the Summoned npcs and the summoner. Summons would get +2 to stats and saves at t2, +2 more at t3 and +4 more at t5 to stats, saves of the Summoned npc. +%39-49 to total hitpoints and Spell point pool for the summoned npc and the summoner (similar with insightful wizardry and false life/vigor tools) Would require 40 points spent at the tree and at least 12-13 levels at a caster class. Only Wizard, Cleric and Bards could unlock these.


Similar to a trinket ; +5 to reflex and fortitude saves , %15 Harper's chance to dodge, %15 Harper's blurry like effect, +10-15 stacking travelling Harper's PRR/MRR. Total stat boost of + 4 to Intelligence (or Charisma or Wisdom) and +4 to constitution. All these could be delivered between T5 and the Core of Harper tree. Would require 40 points spent at the tree and at least 12-13 levels at a caster class. Only Wizard, Cleric and Bards could unlock these.


As passive DC and Spell penetration bonuses +3 to Dice roll of all spells as if you re three levels higher at your caster class at Harper T5 and +3 more at Core; as if you re six level higher while casting. This would require 40 points spent at the Harper universal tree and being at least level 12-13 at one of the caster classes. Only Wizard, Cleric and Bards could unlock these.



Additionally there could be SLAs at Harper tree for only Wizard (non Eldricht Knight), Bard (non Swashbuckler) and Clerics. At least 18 base at casting stat (without tomes) and at least 12 or 13 levels at specific caster class required.


-Harper's Mirror image sla -3 spell points at t1,

-Harper's Sleepwalker sla- 6 spell points; similar to Deep slumber spell but if rolls fail or the npc gets hit, it gets blinded and nauseated for said timer at t2,

-Harper's Time ticked-Two way Dimension door sla- 8 spell points at t3,

-Harper's Mass Haste sla- 10 spell points at t3,

-Harper's Mass Teleport sla at t4 - 15 spell points (including all settings at DDO. Such as Forgotten realms, Ravenloft and Greyhawk settings and not only Eberron settings also choices of wilderness areas from these settings)

-Harper's Limbo walk sla-Same as Shadow walk spell ; except it does not break even when interacted with an object or door etc but breaks at offensive actions- 20 spell points at t5,

-Harper's positive aura sla-20 spell points at Cap with 40 AP spent . Healing effect is opposite of Death aura and effects the entire team. Hurts undead, half healing for warforged and does not heal Palemasters at Undead form. Gives +6 bonus to all skills, +4 to saves and +4 only defensive rolls , removes level drain and harmfull spell effects. Only Wizard, Cleric and Bards could unlock these.



For all these and stated above the toon would need to have raw ability points of 18 without any tome or item at either Intelligence,Wisdom or Charisma.


The multiclassing and bonus enhancements from Harper tree T5, Cap and SLAs would be exclusive with Warlock, Artificier, Eldricht knight,Swashbuckler, Falconry trees. Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin classes would not be able to unlock T5 and Core abilites from Harper tree aswell as the SLAs; even if they had 18 at required casting stat and 12 levels of caster class.


The Harper bonus enhancements that empower summons, dc/spell pen and the survivalibility of the caster would be Wizard, Cleric, Bard only. It would let Monk and Rogue splashes also unlock the t5 and core enhancements if the multiclass toon has 18 ability stat at required casting ability and at least 12-13 levels at the specific caster class (Wizard, Cleric, Bard)

This would ensure the tree would not support power creep but still would let multiclass casters use the tree.


All these requirements named above would need several quests to be completed aswel ; even if the Harper tree owner bought the Harper tree; not unlocked it through Harper favor runs... Such as some quests from Phiarlan, Kundarak, The Twelve, some npc at Portable hole and Hall of heroes. Elminster himself and the similar...It would as if a mastery training from a handfull of powerfull caster all around the realm(s) and planes(?).




Anyhow, back to the original subject.


Spells that require re - cast on self and your team for defensive purposes and spells such as dimension door and teleport has no Spell dice check against the opponents. So a wizard/cleric with pure defensive and healing focus can combine spells from both classes. Add Harper Extend Metamagic from T5 top of that. Anyhow the timer for the extended time of any defensive spell cast on self or the ally is also calculated through your Wizard or Cleric caster level for that specific defensive spell. So the healing power and defensive spell's timer and bonuses from defensive type of spells will not be as strong and as extended as a pure wizard or pure cleric.


Important note here about defensive spells. Break enchantment, Remove curse, Dispell magic etc. spells also roll dice from wizard or cleric. So casting those spells against an offensive spell that is casted on us or an ally , also requires the Dice roll from the highest caster class. Sadly not our total caster class.


Cleric Domains give good wizard spells for defensive purposes. Where as Palemaster Undead Shroud wizards has negative healing. that can be combined with Cleric enhancements and specific cleric domain; up to a point.


There is only one exception for Heroic or Epic TRing purposes Warlock class 10/Insert another class here. (Effectiveness of 10 warlock/10 another class over Epic Hard setting for offensive dice roll is questionable for each run. I am sure there re players who are more experienced then me about Multiclass warlocks at higher epic settings that would give advice about that...I prefer Rogues, Wizards and half time warrior multiclass settings for virtual lives at DDO afterall...(shrugs).



I hope you have a nice time. :cool:

[C-Dog]

Would it be possible to do a 10/10 Wizard/ Cleric, or Wizard/ Druid? How feasible or possible would it be?
Depending on your end-goal, easily possible to build, but not very feasible to run. That is, depending on the level progression, it would start to fail around mid-heroics, and be a defenseless lump of low numbers and flacid spells by end-heroics.

Builds like this are usually(!) aimed to be melee - Druid/X(/y) builds in animal form, or a "gish" of some stripe (using Wizard melee-buff spells and melee weapons).

But as a caster, trying to harm/neutralize enemies with spells, a caster build relies on 3 things:


1) Caster Level - This is the total levels of that class, which make spells stronger in their effect. At level 20, both your Cleric and Wizard caster levels would be "10", exactly half of what one might hope for. So your blast-um spells will do about half the dice, your buffs will last half as long, etc etc.

2) DC ("Difficulty Checks") - When you cast a spell, the target usually gets a "Saving Throw", which, if successful, negates some/all of the effect. As with Caster Level, your DC's are based on your Class Levels - which, again, are only half of what they might be. So you're essentially giving your targets a free +10 to their Saving Throws.

3) High Level spells - You simply won't have the best spells, which require higher Caster Level than Level 10 (which offers access to only Level 5 spells, out of a possible max Level 9).

Now, if your goal is to just "help" a little (via Buffs and spells w/ no Saving Throw), and to "heal" a little (Cleric 10 won't get to the really juicy healing spells), then this could work - a little. But you'd need either friends or a group to do the heavy lifting and actually "kill" the enemies while you do your (very?) small part to help them.


So, let me ask you a different question -


I know next to nothing about build theory or anything like that (or) about class optimization or anything.
No worries, we all started right where you are now. :cool:

So, here's the question...

What were you hoping to achieve w/ the 10 Wiz/10 Cleric split? Spell attacks + self-healing? A caster for all seasons? A holy wizard against undead? What, exactly, did you think you were heading toward w/ this suggested build?

[ValariusK]

This time ago last year I'd say, no, deep caster splash builds just don't work. However, I think you have some decent possibilities for a cleric-y type/ fighter-y type/ magic user-y type now that can work.

Why? Because EK is a heavy splash friendly enhancement line and you can fill in some gaps with falconry and EK.

For instance,
Druid 8 for winter wolf and some self healage/ Wizard 6 for 2d6 elemental on your wolf attacks that scales with spellpower/ 6 fighter
That could be made into a decent build. 11 points of EK is solid, and going 30ish points in EK is pretty righteous too (the t5s in EK are respectable, especially if you're a wolf using a good THF weapon with a high crit multiplier

Or if you wanted something more purely caster, perhaps druid 11, wizard 9 or wizard 12/druid 8. Wizard 12 would give you 4d8 on your spellsword, level 6 wizard spells. druid 11 wizard 9 would give you level 6 druid and level 5 wizard spells and 3d6 on spellsword.