Proton
11-22-2018, 03:13 AM
I am beginning this thread after I recently asked why have we a forum section dedicated to PvP in DDO. As a player who enjoys both PvP and PVE, it helps me understand the concerns of PVE players in this game when it comes to updating PvP into some kind of meaningful system, that PvP should never dominate DDO, never replace questing as the best path of development, never become a mandatory part of character development, and should not divide bases.
Playing this game for almost its entire duration online, I have had PvP fights in the pit and a few 1 on 1 in the queue instances you can challenge a friend to. I have never once been in a team battle, though after reviewing one (sadly I could find no more) on youtube, it looks like a lot of fun, and I want to. I don't even know what the 4 Law arenas look like, after all this time. These seem like wasted resources, they are there, but not being used much, if at all for even PvPers like myself.
I recently jumped in a thread entitled "Why is PvP dead" before it went necro, and I clearly remember a time when PvP was active all day long in the pit, filled with people wasting time testing their toons against others. I did this some, but found it boring and unproductive, and I am a huge PvP fan, but it wasn't really much of a game to me with it going nowhere, and this is how a majority of PvP players think. It was a mixed lot, some actually just there for PvP, but without any reward and with PLs piling in the questing PVE path of development, PvP become more a detriment to any development and an even bigger waste of time. It lost interest and now the arenas are empty most of the time.
It worked for a bit even as a waste of time activity. Then as things changed the changes broke what it was, which was a place of consistent activity.
I've played so many PvP games, and seen things that work better then other things. I've observed the differences between the 24/7 active and the here and there active. There are two major factors involved.
Convenient match making.
Reward.
Neither of these exist in DDO PvP activities. The queue allows players to pick which place they want to go, how long, and set up all sorts of knit picky details that other players might not go for, then to find those to agree to their choice, with so many rooms dividing the queue, fights would be a longer wait if not ending up how we see it is now, waiting for ever because it didn't work.
PvPers want to fight now, and not spend time and energy getting others involved. A good queue allows them to quickly find each other without even looking. It gets them into a fight fast. The queue right now does the opposite, it slows this down to an individual exact fitting process, spread out by talking to Law, challenging players in the street, or just waiting in the pit. This serves to further divide queues and make PvPers wait, which is something they can't stand and will drive em off.
But the real nail in the coffin is no reward. Winning just lost a huge part of its appeal. That makes it less fun. For PvPers, there are games that reward them for their matches, giving coin and experience points, and giving more to the winners. This makes you want to win, and not want to lose. You invest interest and it makes the matches more interesting, more intense, and more involving. PvP will never be meaningful if there is no reward, and as long as it is not meaningful, it will not gather any following at all. It has to have reward to make it live.
I've been getting my fix for PvP mostly from War Robots, and it provides a model of excellence for interesting PvP matches. It is still evolving, and this game is light years ahead of it in so many ways I can't begin to start there. But its PvP works, that is all there is there, and its 24/7 nonstop, because its a lot of fun.
For a PvP reward system to be added to the game without messing with PVE, team match ups work best, where groups are compressed into a single queue to make sure the fights arrive as fast as possible, the fights are limited to 10 minutes but can end sooner in come cases, the teams are randomly assembled of 6 vs 6 (this makes setting up exploits a waste of time- the exp reward shouldn't be more then running fast normal difficulty quests anyways, it should be less), and the arenas are also random along with the kind of fight. You never know who you will be teamed up with, nor which setting you will get.
I currently saw two kinds of team match ups.
Deathmatch
Capture the Flag
Deathmatch is get the most kills before timer runs out.
Capture the flag is different then how I know it, I've never done the version they have in DDO, and would like to try it.
The version I know is where you run to a circle beacon, stand in the circle for a long enough to make it turn to your team color, and if you got more beacons on your side their timer goes down faster, going very fast if you get all 5 beacons. This puts a lot of pressure to run around to different places and secure beacons, and causes fights to break out over those beacons. Its a lot of fun!
I also play Domination matches, which involve beacons and works just like capture the flag, but when you die you have to start at the same point (which can be ambushed if other team creeps up on it - thus domination) and run out to the beacons to capture them or keep them defended. In the capture the flag version I know, you can start at any of the beacons your team has captured if you die and come back. This prevents domination, and changes the group strategy completely.
Teams also balance far better then individuals, fights last longer and are more dynamic.
Focusing on these two a bit more - first the Queue
the best way to fix the queue to make it provide fast matches is to set of a random queue that you can enter that keeps fights shorter, doesn't let players set timer, can be accessed from anywhere at their convenience (so within their challenge options they can just go to enter random match and don't need to select anyone), while that Law NPC could be found at the taverns as another check in point leading to the same random queue and matches. While the player spec'd PvP matches can stay optional how they are, and don't need to be changed (since they can be exploited, experience and reward should not function for player spec'd PvP matches), adding a random match set up botton "enter random match" or "fight" or something that funnels all the possible arenas to where matches are filling up as fast as possible.
So a PvPer can just go straight into PvP where other PvPers are easily finding each other (without using the lfm at all), having the matches arranged for them, and jumping right into the action instead of waiting around getting bored it is best to make reduce waiting time as much as possible.
This then connects to the other part, reward, because by adding reward, now, not only is it easier for PvPers to find good matches and fast, there is incentive for them as well. The reward is the most important part in cementing activity and making PvP interesting and fun for PvPers, without any reward PvP will remain a waste of time at best.
Reward
this can not mess with the PVE. It should help the toons develop, because the grind from start to finish is already one of the longest of all MMORPGs. For this reason, it would be an asset to the game to have more avenues of development to reach that. PvP should award some experience points for the random uncontrolled matches that get players to spend their time. In order to prevent it from shadowing PVE for experience points, it should be calculated so that it is faster to do normal PVE quests then to grind PvP fights to level up. PvP players won't notice or care much, as time will seem to fly by for them when they are having fun.
PvP should also reward coin. Coin and experience being the minimum reward. With the coin, PvPers can go to the Auction House to get better gear, but will likely end up going to quests to get things anyways. At least it gives them some leverage until they just got to have that named item that never shows up in the auction. Items in the auction house will sell more this way. Perhaps the winning team can win 1 piece of vendor trash at their level or if they win 3 fights or something. Keeping it minimum to start makes the most sense though, anything more just adds to the programming.
Naturally the winning group should win the most, but the losing group should also get something. Exp rewards should only come from the random compressed and uncontrolled queues that consolidate PvP match ups to speed up the matches as fast as possible. Match ups also need to keep levels within a reasonable range of each other to prevent weird match ups like level 30 groups vs level 1 groups. That should be automatically taken care of for the player when he or she enters the queue, it knowing their level and what random range to match them up with.
That is it. Two things.
Consolidate the Queue, and add some reward. It is as little as possible I can think of to do, and would have a massive impact for PvPers, and enable me to quickly find matches like the ones I see in youtube videos that make me super sad I am not easily finding that kind of fun and that it isn't really going anywhere when it could be a good part of the game, that contributes to lfms, alts, and population, as well as activities to select and participate in.
I've had a few simple ideas for other kinds of fun matches that could be added to the queue, just two off the top of my head:
Reaper vs Team vs Team, (in this two teams fight each other while there is a reaper team trying to beat both teams. If both teams don't work together, reapers will probably win, but only one team can win in the end, so at some point they have to fight each other again. This one could even reward a bit of reaper experience and allow reaper trees to function. Being random in the queue, it would not be a reliable thing to exploit, but something to look forward to for reaper developed toons, and something to win for reaperless toons. - the other arenas that have nothing to do with reaper should not give reaper exp nor allow the reaper trees to function)
5 lives (this is team vs team where each player only gets 5 lives, if they die, they become a stone and have about 10 seconds to get a res spell or they lose one life, it could be 5 seconds. After they die 5 times they are eliminated. If one team runs out of toons first, its side loses. If the timer runs out first, the team with the most kills wins)
One last thing, reward is better for participating points. In games like War Robots, you get more of these from dealing lots of damage or healing, capturing flags or liberating flags, getting kills - pikers don't get as much this way, and it helps motivate the playing members of the team to do their best. This would be included in the reward system, where it gives a better reward for beating a higher level total of the team fought against, but increases further for the players who contributed the most to the victory. In this way, you end up competing a bit with your own team members, but if you get too caught up doing that you risk losing the match and the spoils anyways. Regardless of how its implements, some sort of reward system is the only thing that will make PvP interesting enough for PvP players. Reward in this case being both fast and fun matches along with some gain.
In closing, I'd like to share a PvP youtube video that looks interesting and fun to myself and players like me who enjoy PvP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BpM1NgCRtM
(Team vs Team, what a dream!)
(Edit: I love this video, its spell binding, I can feel the clash of living will power that no AI can ever deliver, makes me so jealous and wanting. IMO Best DDO Video I've seen, AI just can't do this)
(I was hoping to find another team vs team video on youtube, but apparently this is the only one. I've never seen this happen, and its just sad to think its just happening every blue moon or so, when it could be something all my alts are jumping in on in between quests, having fun still progressing, instead of waiting for lfms and passing out - while it is the only vid I could find, it is an awesome one, and Kudos to the player who made it - your video is simply amazing and looks like you had a lot of fun - makes me wish it was available and something I could easily do when I have time)
Playing this game for almost its entire duration online, I have had PvP fights in the pit and a few 1 on 1 in the queue instances you can challenge a friend to. I have never once been in a team battle, though after reviewing one (sadly I could find no more) on youtube, it looks like a lot of fun, and I want to. I don't even know what the 4 Law arenas look like, after all this time. These seem like wasted resources, they are there, but not being used much, if at all for even PvPers like myself.
I recently jumped in a thread entitled "Why is PvP dead" before it went necro, and I clearly remember a time when PvP was active all day long in the pit, filled with people wasting time testing their toons against others. I did this some, but found it boring and unproductive, and I am a huge PvP fan, but it wasn't really much of a game to me with it going nowhere, and this is how a majority of PvP players think. It was a mixed lot, some actually just there for PvP, but without any reward and with PLs piling in the questing PVE path of development, PvP become more a detriment to any development and an even bigger waste of time. It lost interest and now the arenas are empty most of the time.
It worked for a bit even as a waste of time activity. Then as things changed the changes broke what it was, which was a place of consistent activity.
I've played so many PvP games, and seen things that work better then other things. I've observed the differences between the 24/7 active and the here and there active. There are two major factors involved.
Convenient match making.
Reward.
Neither of these exist in DDO PvP activities. The queue allows players to pick which place they want to go, how long, and set up all sorts of knit picky details that other players might not go for, then to find those to agree to their choice, with so many rooms dividing the queue, fights would be a longer wait if not ending up how we see it is now, waiting for ever because it didn't work.
PvPers want to fight now, and not spend time and energy getting others involved. A good queue allows them to quickly find each other without even looking. It gets them into a fight fast. The queue right now does the opposite, it slows this down to an individual exact fitting process, spread out by talking to Law, challenging players in the street, or just waiting in the pit. This serves to further divide queues and make PvPers wait, which is something they can't stand and will drive em off.
But the real nail in the coffin is no reward. Winning just lost a huge part of its appeal. That makes it less fun. For PvPers, there are games that reward them for their matches, giving coin and experience points, and giving more to the winners. This makes you want to win, and not want to lose. You invest interest and it makes the matches more interesting, more intense, and more involving. PvP will never be meaningful if there is no reward, and as long as it is not meaningful, it will not gather any following at all. It has to have reward to make it live.
I've been getting my fix for PvP mostly from War Robots, and it provides a model of excellence for interesting PvP matches. It is still evolving, and this game is light years ahead of it in so many ways I can't begin to start there. But its PvP works, that is all there is there, and its 24/7 nonstop, because its a lot of fun.
For a PvP reward system to be added to the game without messing with PVE, team match ups work best, where groups are compressed into a single queue to make sure the fights arrive as fast as possible, the fights are limited to 10 minutes but can end sooner in come cases, the teams are randomly assembled of 6 vs 6 (this makes setting up exploits a waste of time- the exp reward shouldn't be more then running fast normal difficulty quests anyways, it should be less), and the arenas are also random along with the kind of fight. You never know who you will be teamed up with, nor which setting you will get.
I currently saw two kinds of team match ups.
Deathmatch
Capture the Flag
Deathmatch is get the most kills before timer runs out.
Capture the flag is different then how I know it, I've never done the version they have in DDO, and would like to try it.
The version I know is where you run to a circle beacon, stand in the circle for a long enough to make it turn to your team color, and if you got more beacons on your side their timer goes down faster, going very fast if you get all 5 beacons. This puts a lot of pressure to run around to different places and secure beacons, and causes fights to break out over those beacons. Its a lot of fun!
I also play Domination matches, which involve beacons and works just like capture the flag, but when you die you have to start at the same point (which can be ambushed if other team creeps up on it - thus domination) and run out to the beacons to capture them or keep them defended. In the capture the flag version I know, you can start at any of the beacons your team has captured if you die and come back. This prevents domination, and changes the group strategy completely.
Teams also balance far better then individuals, fights last longer and are more dynamic.
Focusing on these two a bit more - first the Queue
the best way to fix the queue to make it provide fast matches is to set of a random queue that you can enter that keeps fights shorter, doesn't let players set timer, can be accessed from anywhere at their convenience (so within their challenge options they can just go to enter random match and don't need to select anyone), while that Law NPC could be found at the taverns as another check in point leading to the same random queue and matches. While the player spec'd PvP matches can stay optional how they are, and don't need to be changed (since they can be exploited, experience and reward should not function for player spec'd PvP matches), adding a random match set up botton "enter random match" or "fight" or something that funnels all the possible arenas to where matches are filling up as fast as possible.
So a PvPer can just go straight into PvP where other PvPers are easily finding each other (without using the lfm at all), having the matches arranged for them, and jumping right into the action instead of waiting around getting bored it is best to make reduce waiting time as much as possible.
This then connects to the other part, reward, because by adding reward, now, not only is it easier for PvPers to find good matches and fast, there is incentive for them as well. The reward is the most important part in cementing activity and making PvP interesting and fun for PvPers, without any reward PvP will remain a waste of time at best.
Reward
this can not mess with the PVE. It should help the toons develop, because the grind from start to finish is already one of the longest of all MMORPGs. For this reason, it would be an asset to the game to have more avenues of development to reach that. PvP should award some experience points for the random uncontrolled matches that get players to spend their time. In order to prevent it from shadowing PVE for experience points, it should be calculated so that it is faster to do normal PVE quests then to grind PvP fights to level up. PvP players won't notice or care much, as time will seem to fly by for them when they are having fun.
PvP should also reward coin. Coin and experience being the minimum reward. With the coin, PvPers can go to the Auction House to get better gear, but will likely end up going to quests to get things anyways. At least it gives them some leverage until they just got to have that named item that never shows up in the auction. Items in the auction house will sell more this way. Perhaps the winning team can win 1 piece of vendor trash at their level or if they win 3 fights or something. Keeping it minimum to start makes the most sense though, anything more just adds to the programming.
Naturally the winning group should win the most, but the losing group should also get something. Exp rewards should only come from the random compressed and uncontrolled queues that consolidate PvP match ups to speed up the matches as fast as possible. Match ups also need to keep levels within a reasonable range of each other to prevent weird match ups like level 30 groups vs level 1 groups. That should be automatically taken care of for the player when he or she enters the queue, it knowing their level and what random range to match them up with.
That is it. Two things.
Consolidate the Queue, and add some reward. It is as little as possible I can think of to do, and would have a massive impact for PvPers, and enable me to quickly find matches like the ones I see in youtube videos that make me super sad I am not easily finding that kind of fun and that it isn't really going anywhere when it could be a good part of the game, that contributes to lfms, alts, and population, as well as activities to select and participate in.
I've had a few simple ideas for other kinds of fun matches that could be added to the queue, just two off the top of my head:
Reaper vs Team vs Team, (in this two teams fight each other while there is a reaper team trying to beat both teams. If both teams don't work together, reapers will probably win, but only one team can win in the end, so at some point they have to fight each other again. This one could even reward a bit of reaper experience and allow reaper trees to function. Being random in the queue, it would not be a reliable thing to exploit, but something to look forward to for reaper developed toons, and something to win for reaperless toons. - the other arenas that have nothing to do with reaper should not give reaper exp nor allow the reaper trees to function)
5 lives (this is team vs team where each player only gets 5 lives, if they die, they become a stone and have about 10 seconds to get a res spell or they lose one life, it could be 5 seconds. After they die 5 times they are eliminated. If one team runs out of toons first, its side loses. If the timer runs out first, the team with the most kills wins)
One last thing, reward is better for participating points. In games like War Robots, you get more of these from dealing lots of damage or healing, capturing flags or liberating flags, getting kills - pikers don't get as much this way, and it helps motivate the playing members of the team to do their best. This would be included in the reward system, where it gives a better reward for beating a higher level total of the team fought against, but increases further for the players who contributed the most to the victory. In this way, you end up competing a bit with your own team members, but if you get too caught up doing that you risk losing the match and the spoils anyways. Regardless of how its implements, some sort of reward system is the only thing that will make PvP interesting enough for PvP players. Reward in this case being both fast and fun matches along with some gain.
In closing, I'd like to share a PvP youtube video that looks interesting and fun to myself and players like me who enjoy PvP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BpM1NgCRtM
(Team vs Team, what a dream!)
(Edit: I love this video, its spell binding, I can feel the clash of living will power that no AI can ever deliver, makes me so jealous and wanting. IMO Best DDO Video I've seen, AI just can't do this)
(I was hoping to find another team vs team video on youtube, but apparently this is the only one. I've never seen this happen, and its just sad to think its just happening every blue moon or so, when it could be something all my alts are jumping in on in between quests, having fun still progressing, instead of waiting for lfms and passing out - while it is the only vid I could find, it is an awesome one, and Kudos to the player who made it - your video is simply amazing and looks like you had a lot of fun - makes me wish it was available and something I could easily do when I have time)