First Look: U41 Eldritch Knight

[Steelstar]

Hello! We're here today to talk about the Eldritch Knight pass coming in Update 41. This updates both the Wizard and Sorcerer versions of the Eldritch Knight tree, adding new enhancements and rebalancing old ones. Conceptually, the Eldritch Knight is an Arcane Spellcaster that also excels with Melee weapons, and truly shines when using a combination of both spells and weapons.

The version you see below is what will be on Lamannia when that comes up (timing still TBD), but in the meantime we'd love your feedback on this tree!

(And if you'd like more information, the Weekly Wednesday Livestream from this week showcases a discussion between myself and Cordovan about this tree! (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/335848133)).

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/eknight.png


Core 1: Eldritch Strike: Melee Cleave Attack. +1[w]. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes.(Activation Cost: 0 SP Cooldown: 12 seconds)

You gain proficiency with Simple Weapons
Every Core Ability in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you +10 Max HP




Core 2: Spellsword (you get all four of the following toggles, 5SP to activate). Passive: +1% doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power. You gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial Weapons.

Corrosive: Charge your equipped weapon with magical Acid, causing them to deal an addtional 1d6 (element) damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 (wizard/sorcerer) levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18). This damage scales with Acid Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional Acid damage per Character Level which scales with Acid Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch.
Flaming: As above, with fire
Frost: As above, with cold
Shock: As above, with electric




Core 3: Melee weapons are considered Spellcasting Implements in your hands. You gain the Quick Draw feat.

-15% Arcane Spell Failure from equipped Armor and Shields
+1% doublestrike
+10 Universal spellpower




Core 4: Subtle Force: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds.

-20% Arcane Spell Failure from equipped Armor and Shields
+6 Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, and Sonic
+10 Universal spellpower




Core 5: Subtle Force II: +5% Stacking Incorporeality. Your Deflect Arrows now triggers every 2 seconds.

+1% doublestrike
+10 Universal spellpower




Core 6: Eldritch Blade:



Your Eldritch Strike now grants you a Power Charge. When you have 5 Power Charges, they are removed, and you gain Eldritch Power. Eldritch Power: +10% melee damage, +4d6 Spellsword Dice, +3d4 Force Damage on Hit (this scales with Force spell power), +25 Universal spellpower, +15 PRR, +40 MRR. Duration 30 seconds.
Passive:

+1 Spellsword Die
+2 (Intelligence/Charisma), +2 Constitution
+10 Universal spellpower




Tier 1:


Improved Mage Armor: (unchanged) Spell Like Ability: Mage Armor. (Activation Cost: 8/6/4 Spell Points). In addition, while you are under the effect of the Mage Armor spell, you gain a +3%/+6%/+10% Exceptional Bonus to Armor Class.
Arcane Siphon: Melee Attack:+1/2/3[w]. On hit: Gain +10/20/30 Universal Spell Power for 20 seconds. 12 second cooldown.
Item Defense (unchanged) You have a 25%/50%/75% chance to negate potential item wear.
Toughness (unchanged) +5/10/15 Max HP
Battlemage (unchanged) +1/+2/+3 Concentration, Intimidate, and Spellcraft.

Tier 2:


Improved Shield: Spell Like Ability: Shield (Activation Cost: 8/6/4 Spell points). In addition, while you are under the effect of the Shield spell, you gain +3/+6/+10 Exceptional Bonus to Physical Resistance Rating.
Mystic Wards: +3/6/10 MRR.
Action Boost: Spell Power: Activate to gain a +10/+20/+30 Action Boost bonus to Spell Power for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
Shield Training: (unchanged) Passive: You gain proficiency with all shields except Tower Shields, and your Arcane Spell Failure chance from equipped shields is reduced by 5%.
Wand & Scroll Mastery (unchanged) +25%/+50%/+75% effectiveness from your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells, and +1/+2/+3 to the save DC of your offensive wands. Taking Wand and Scroll Mastery in one enhancement tree will block its availability in other enhancement trees.

Tier 3:


Arcane Barrier: (Now 1 Rank): Passive: When your HP drop below 50% of maximum, you are immediately protected by an Arcane Barrier that reduces all incoming damage by 25% for the next 20 seconds. This effect may only trigger once every 90 seconds.
Eldritch Accuracy: You get (INT/CHA) to hit with weapons and shield bashes.



Synergetic Magic: While you have Action Boost: Spell Power active, you also get the benefits of Action Boost: Power (+10/20/30 Action Boost bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power for 20 seconds.)
Critical Mastery: +1/2/3 to confirm critical hits and critical hit damage (before weapon multipliers)
Ability Score Multiselctor (unchanged) +1 STR/DEX/(INT or CHA)

Tier 4:


Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range. You cannot enable the Enlarge Metamagic while this is active. You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage. Your Base Attack Bonus equals your Character Level.



Improved Offhand: Multiselector:

Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the enhancement bonus of your equipped shield.
Orb Saves: +1/2/3 to saving throws and +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power while holding an Orb


Force's Point: When you cast a spell, you gain a stack of Force's Point: Martial (+1 to Hit and Damage). This stacks up to 5 times. When you hit with a melee weapon, you gain a stack of Force's Point: Magical (+2 Universal Spell Power). This stacks up to 10 times. Stacks last for 12 seconds each. You may only gain each effect once per second.
Armored Arcana: You gain proficiency in Medium Armor, and suffer no Arcane Spell Failure from Light or Medium Armor
Ability Score Multiselctor (unchanged) +1 STR/DEX/(INT or CHA)

Tier 5:


Improved Knight's Transformation: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with Melee Weapons.
Knight's Magic: Multiselector:

Knight Striker: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +2 to Evocation DCs, +2 to Conjuration DCs.
Knight Controller: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +2 to Enchantment DCs, +4 Spell Penetration.


Force's Edge: When you cast a spell, you gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range for 12 seconds. When you make a Melee Attack, you gain +5% Spell Critical Chance for 12 seconds.
Radiant Forcefield: Spell Like Ability: Radiant Forcefield (Activation Cost: 30 Spell Points. Cooldown: 3 minutes.)



Eldritch Tempest: Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +5[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 1 second. (Activation Cost: 50/40/30 Spell points. Cooldown: 60/45/30 seconds) If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. (now 1AP per rank)

[Steelstar]

FAQ:

What's the deal with Knight's Transformation?
You'll probably notice that the cast range restrictions while Knight's Transformation is active are very similar to Epic Defensive Fighting. With the tree's focus on wading into melee range for combat, this is a tree where offensive spellcasting range can afford to be close-quarters; for that tradeoff, the Eldritch Knight gets a big boost to spellcasting AND weapon combat. If you have both this and Epic Defensive Fighting toggled on in the Epic levels, you do not suffer a further penalty to casting range, so they synergize well.

Why did you drop Permanent Tenser's out of this tree?
As we evaluated the existing tree's strengths and weaknesses, it occurred to us that if we wanted the role of Eldritch Knights to be "Character that excels at both Spells and Weapons", then Tenser's was counterproductive to that, as it increased your spell cooldowns dramatically. We put together Knight's Transformation to replace it.

What does 5% Stacking Incorporeality mean (from the 5th Core)?
This is incorporeality, causing a chance to ignore damage similar to the Ghostly item effect. There's an identical bonus in the Tempest Cores.

What does 10% Melee Damage mean (from the 6th Core)?
This is an overall 10% scale-up to damage from Melee Attacks. We removed a lot of this from the game when Melee and Ranged Power were added, but given that you can't get this without 20 Wizard or Sorcerer levels, we felt the powerful scaling was worth it.

Does anything in here work with Ranged Weapons?
If it doesn't say specifically "Melee", assume it also works on Ranged weapons.

How many Spellsword Dice can I get?
A pure 20 Wizard or Sorcerer that took all the Cores has 7d6 stable Spellsword dice, and turns it up to 11d6 when Eldritch Power is active (which you can keep up 50% of the time if you use Eldritch Blade any time it's off cooldown). Those dice scale at the normal rate with Spell Power.

How does the knockdown in Eldritch Tempest work?
It knocks down anything that isn't immune to Trip for one second. There is no saving throw. (It does not affect Bosses, who are normally immune to Trip).

[Sho-sa]

Thank you for giving us a look at this even though the Lama preview ran into a hiccup.


Looks very much improved.

Glad to see SP drain from Spellsword removed and that it scales. LOVE the multi toggle!!!!!

Nice touch the 'exceptional' bonus to PR from Shield SLA.

Tier Three- Synergetic Magic- cool effect to have it double stack with Tier Two- Spell Power AB

----------------------------------------

Core Four: Maybe say, "-5% additional" to ASF? Hate for someone to read it as 15% from Core Three plus another 20% from Core Four.

Tier five- Radiant Forcefield SLA. Will this be able to benefit from Extend metamagic and last for 44 seconds?

Tier Three- Eldritch Accuracy- would prefer switch from hit to damage here, just as with Swashbuckler, please.




All in all, though it looks like y'all have been listening to what we have had to say! Very much appreciated.

[Xgya]

Now that the damage sees improvements, I wanna see how an elven wizard arcane archer (you know, the class they were historically supposed to start off as to become Arcane Archers in the first place :P ) using both elemental arrows and the toggle.
That's GOT to be a ton of extra (scaling) damage per attack, on top of staying a Wizard.

Only saying this because the only thing I can reliably do in melee is politely ask if an ally carries rez scrolls XD

Still, looks promising. Eldritch Knight starts looking like the melee skirmisher it's supposed to be. Splashing other classes to get proficiencies and feats might still be tempting (as it is in all gish builds, really), but this is really looking sweet.

Thanks for removing the mana cost on hit for the toggles and main attack. Adding free Ghost touch as low as level 3 is a nice touch too.

I still dislike the idea of changing the range of spells to force people to melee, but given the fact that Wizards and Sorcerers at their core aren't supposed to be handing out buffs or using healing magic once combat has started, this is one tree I can more easily accept this penalty to show up in.
Just as good at magicking stuff to death as before, they just have to be a bit more up close and personal about it. Quicken spell: don't leave home with it toggled off!

[Sho-sa]

Oh man! Missed the Ghost touch added.


VERY NICE!!!!!!!


Yeah, not a fan of the whole Epic Defensive Fighting thing, but this tree is a great improvement already so... meh.

[Shadrar]

Now that the damage sees improvements, I wanna see how an elven wizard arcane archer (you know, the class they were historically supposed to start off as to become Arcane Archers in the first place :P ) using both elemental arrows and the toggle.

7d6 + 7d8 + 2d20, with 800 spellpower = 700 elemental damage per arrow.

[Xanthrawl]

Does Core 4 -20% ASF supersede the Core 3 -15% ASF? Or will this be a total of -35% Arcane Spell Failure?

[QueenOfTheHook]

Eldritch Accuracy: You get (INT/CHA) to hit with weapons and shield bashes.


Am I overlooking where we get it to damage as well because to hit is only half the battle and the lower half at that.

[Cordovan]

Eldritch Accuracy: You get (INT/CHA) to hit with weapons and shield bashes.


Am I overlooking where we get it to damage as well because to hit is only half the battle and the lower half at that.

INT to damage is not currently available in the Eldritch Knight tree.

[Mindos]

7d6 + 7d8 + 2d20, with 800 spellpower = 700 elemental damage per arrow.

Can you write this out a little more? What are these numbers? 7d6 from this Eldritch Knight revamp, I read 9d8 from Arcane Archer if you Tier 5. What's the 2d20?

So a Elf, or any race with access to Arcane Archer, full level 20 Wizard, sitting at level 30, taking Tier 5 in Arcane Archer, getting full cores from Eldritch Knight, is gonna do about 1000 damage per arrow?

[Silverleafeon]

Core 1: Eldritch Strike: Melee Cleave Attack. +1[w]. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes.(Activation Cost: 0 SP Cooldown: 12 seconds)


In the live stream at the 4 min mark, Steelstar mentions that this Eldritch strike has reduced cooldown.

But then he mentions off the top of his head (forgivable) it is now 12 sec instead of 24 or 30?
In reality on live it is 12 seconds (which is much slower than the feat cleave which has a 5 second cooldown).

Can I assume that this important feature is going from 12 second cooldown to 6ish second cooldown?
If so, that is a very welcome change.

[Shadrar]

Can you write this out a little more? What are these numbers? 7d6 from this Eldritch Knight revamp, I read 9d8 from Arcane Archer if you Tier 5. What's the 2d20?

So a Elf, or any race with access to Arcane Archer, full level 20 Wizard, sitting at level 30, taking Tier 5 in Arcane Archer, getting full cores from Eldritch Knight, is gonna do about 1000 damage per arrow?

2d20 is from a Legendary Feat. E.g. Scion of the Plane of Earth for acid damage.

I didn't include T5 from AA because I'm not sure you would use T5 from it. You're missing crit range in AA, but can get it from T5 EK.

[Silverleafeon]

Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range. You cannot enable the Enlarge Metamagic while this is active. You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage. Your Base Attack Bonus equals your Character Level.


My main concerns about the Epic Defensive feat affecting teamwork would not apply to a heroic wizard who is highly unlikely to provide much in combat team healing.
So this change from permanent tenser (which was primarily good for thrower builds splashing five levels of wizard) seems like a very good change.

If an arcane desires Tenser's, it would be fairly easy to simply cast thus as desired, because the duration for a full wizard would be fairly good.

[Mindos]

Off the bat, I'm thinking Morninglord with a heart respec to full level 20 wizard, AA build...or...
Half-Elf, Arti dilettante, ignore Arcane Archer, and go full heavy repeater/spell points, int, etc...

[Silverleafeon]

Live stream: 17:40

"...this stacks with arcane warrior feat. Also we are boosting the Arcane Warrior Feat a little bit...":

Sounds very nice.

Arcane Warrior definitely could use a boost.
Feel free to be generous there.

Also Deific Warding stacks are removed too quickly.

[OrtRestave]

Very nice changes overall for sure. While at first I was disappointed at the lack of INT/CHA to Weap Dmg, I think that the changes to the Spellswords probably make up for that. Since the idea is that the Eldritch Knight is dealing damage more through arcane means powered by SP rather than martial ability, I can't really complain.

I have two concerns, although they're fairly minor. The first is that Core 5 seems pretty weak. It doesn't need to be the massive boost in power that a lot of Core 5s are, but it just seems like it could use a little more benefit. As a suggestion, one thing that's always bothered me a little is that while the Spellsword abilities have always given a boost to Eldritch Strike, nothing in the tree has ever improved Eldritch Strike much as an ability. Maybe Core 5 could do something like improve Eldritch Strike to +3[w]? And perhaps something else, though I'm not sure what would sit well in balance with the other changes. But because Core 5 is the last opportunity for a core ability to modify the tree's baseline attack for any character with a dip, it seems like an appropriate place.

The second is regarding Eldritch Power, which while much improved, still has the same problem as before. It's not a major issue, but I'd like to point out that it still functions in much the same way as Divine Vessel used to work and which you recently changed to be more under the player's control. I'll acknowledge that it's not quite as bad to have a 50% uptime buff operate in such a manner as it is for an instant PBAoE to do so, but it's still going to be a common situation to have to refrain from using Eldritch Strike because the next encounter will be one where you'll want to have the buff up immediately, and I don't think this is a very positive experience for a rotational ability.

[FuryFlash]

Now that the damage sees improvements, I wanna see how an elven wizard arcane archer (you know, the class they were historically supposed to start off as to become Arcane Archers in the first place :P ) using both elemental arrows and the toggle.
That's GOT to be a ton of extra (scaling) damage per attack, on top of staying a Wizard.

My pure Sorcerer 20 Elven Arcane Archer (currently at level 20) is going to LOVE these changes! :D

From total gimp to maybe even... good?!

[FuzzyDuck81]

Now this is the kind of thing I was hoping for in an eldritch knight :) Force's edge in particular is definitely geared towards ensuring that people really make sure to mix in the fighting & spellcasting - I suspect there will be some who splash a bit of warlock & the enlightened spirit line to help keep that up without thinking, but then the trade-off would naturally be to miss out on that tasty capstone so I can't see it being any real issue.

[PsychoBlonde]

Armored Arcana is INCREDIBLY redundant with the cores, and should probably ONLY grant proficiency.

Overall, I think it has potential, and I'm excited to try it out. I love hybrid toons (caster/weapon), so this will probably be a big thing for me.

[Steelstar]

Armored Arcana is INCREDIBLY redundant with the cores, and should probably ONLY grant proficiency.

Overall, I think it has potential, and I'm excited to try it out. I love hybrid toons (caster/weapon), so this will probably be a big thing for me.

To be honest, the reduction found in the Cores is mainly meant for people running Heavy Armor builds.

[PsychoBlonde]

The second is regarding Eldritch Power, which while much improved, still has the same problem as before. It's not a major issue, but I'd like to point out that it still functions in much the same way as Divine Vessel used to work and which you recently changed to be more under the player's control. I'll acknowledge that it's not quite as bad to have a 50% uptime buff operate in such a manner as it is for an instant PBAoE to do so, but it's still going to be a common situation to have to refrain from using Eldritch Strike because the next encounter will be one where you'll want to have the buff up immediately, and I don't think this is a very positive experience for a rotational ability.

It's not 50% uptime. Eldritch Strike has a 12 second cooldown and you have to hit that 5 times (minimum 60 seconds of cooldowns) in order to get a 30 second buff. So it's a 33% uptime buff at best.

I'd suggest reducing the cooldown of Eldritch Strike to 6 seconds.

[Steelstar]

It's not 50% uptime. Eldritch Strike has a 12 second cooldown and you have to hit that 5 times (minimum 60 seconds of cooldowns) in order to get a 30 second buff. So it's a 33% uptime buff at best.

Eldritch Power's buff doesn't stop you from getting further stacks - If you're running Eldritch Strike any time it's off cooldown, by the time Eldritch Power ends you should already have 2 stacks and be 6 seconds away from picking up your third. 30 seconds after Eldritch Power expires, you can hit 5 stacks again and the skill triggers.

[Silverleafeon]

To be honest, the reduction found in the Cores is mainly meant for people running Heavy Armor builds.

Which is very nice, having casts spells like nightshield while wearing heavy armor and tower shield often 0-o even with spell agility augment its 70% failure on my tank.

[MonadRebelion]

This is one of my favorite playstyles and these changes bring a tear to my eye. Looks really cool. The only thing I'd change is the doublestrike bonuses. Why not make them +2% rather than +1%?

[Silverleafeon]

This is one of my favorite playstyles and these changes bring a tear to my eye. Looks really cool. The only thing I'd change is the doublestrike bonuses. Why not make them +2% rather than +1%?

+1 aye these change to the tree look very nice.

Given that its not uncommon to gain 70% double strike at end game or more this seems reasonable.

[guzzlr]

Re. Force's Edge.

Seems like interrupting your attack sequence with a spell cast for a 12 second threat range increase is likely to cause a lower damage output, not higher. I am more than happy to be wrong, this is just a gut feeling.

Is it likely to be much actual help? What am I missing?

[Niminae]

The main problem with an Elf (1e) or a Fighter/Mage (AD&D through 3.5) or an Eldritch Knight (DDO) has always been the same: The game encourages and rewards specialization, and so a half-Wizard half-Fighter will has never been half as good as a Wizard or half as good as a Fighter, and so was mostly an exercise in a flavor build.

The solution should look like a light or medium armored, one handed weapon user (allowing for an orb or a buckler off-hand), whose spells focus far more on a subtle use of magic over the blasting and death spells of most Wizards. It uses distractions, debuffs and interrupts (short duration stuns, slow effects, casting prevention, the existing Eldritch Tempest, etc.) far than pure spell casting damage, although they will of course be able to cast damaging and other spells from their Wizard class levels. That would make for a flavorful and also effective and unique fighting style with a lot of flair that wouldn't be able to out-fight a pure Fighter or out cast a pure Wizard but using their unique blending of melee and magic use would still have a chance to defeat either.

The problem with this, is that SSG and Turbine before it have said several times that making new spells is a Hard Thing™. If they don't get off the pot and just do it already, the new Eldritch Knight tree will never serve well enough alone to make it a success as an actual hybrid class instead of a cobbled together jigsaw mess of Fighter and Wizard. It would take some tree-specific spells to do that. The effort that was made to create the 7(really 4, all the level 1 spells are just the same spell with a different element damage) new spells previewed in the livestream could have been used instead to make Eldritch Knight play in a unique and effective way. But I guess I kind of understand that you're trying to enhance all Arcane casters and not just Eldritch Knights. I just find it a bit sad that you've stolen the potential thunder that Eldritch Knight could have had by blending in those disparate goals by taking those development hours away from the Eldritch Knight and applying them to general use spells.

===

Cores:
Core 1: Eldritch Strike should not be a cleave attack. Brute cleaving is the antithesis of the flair and finesse of this combatant, which is far more comparable to single weapon fighting or the use of weapon finesse.

Core 3: Melee weapons are considered Spellcasting Implements in your hands. You gain the Quick Draw feat. - Considering how you have gutted the value of Quick Draw, I can only laugh: Hahahahahaha!

Tier 4:
Knight's Transformation - The short range spell casting limitation plays well with the Eldritch Knight I have outlined above.

Tier 5:
Knight's Magic - Knight Controller - This sort of approaches the concept. The class as I envision it would not be a primary charmer but would have some decent enchantment options for fulfilling the distract/trick/slow/debuff/stun role. You guys can do this without having it be a potential charmer tree by building the right spell effects into the tree with the DC bonus already factored in to them.
Eldritch Tempest - This short term AOE knockdown ability plays well with the Eldritch Knight that I envision. But then all you did was increase the W damage and reduce the AP cost. This would be a worthwhile T5, if it only had a decent tree to support the decision to taking a T5 in this tree over any other.


Over all what I mostly see is a lot of repetitions of "+X to Spell/Universal Power" and "+melee damage" and very little that would make the build play in any kind of a unique way. The best grade I can give your new tree is a 'C' for finally getting around the the pass on the poor Eldritch Knight tree, and a lot of disappointment for the plentiful opportunities you had for making players who invest in the tree enjoy a unique play style that isn't just more of the same "Let's stack up some spell power and melee power and call it a day."

===

New Spells. Wow, 3 new spells! And yes I can count, I see the 7 new spell names, but 4 of the 1st level spells and two of the 9th level spells are the exact same spell with just a different elemental damage type, and so just a copy-paste difference. So it's 3 new spells. And it's only 1 level 1 and 2 level 9 spells, with nothing filling in the gaps in all of the spell levels in between other than the concomitant boosting the power level of those spells. Still, this is fairly impressive given what has seemed to be a very large amount of inertia attached to the entire concept of creating a new spell. Bravo, and more of the same, please.

===

I'm happy to hear that Archmage and Pale Master and Savants are on the radar. More spells, please, and try not to make them common spells and focus on the specific trees this time.

===

Questions:

10:55 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxu6xXq8c5E#t=10m55s) Why does Steelstar think that the AC bonus from Improved Mage Armor is "Pretty ridiculous?" Every build that I've seen using this for AC is a tanking build using both Fighter and Paladin levels, and you guys specifically excluded those builds from gaining any benefit from Epic Defensive Fighting. And you have refused to comment on why. So please stop dropping inflammatory comments into your livestreams and also refusing to comment on your reasons for making these inflammatory comments. All that does is to foment discontent amongst your customers. Here is your opportunity to make your design decisions public at last.

34:20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxu6xXq8c5E#t=34m20s) Neither Flame Arrow nor Conjure Arrows are gathered by quivers. And at least Flame Arrows should be, since Conjure Arrows are returning and quiver use is fairly irrelevant. The state of quivers is pretty terrible at this time, and deserves a better response than "I'd have to actually look at how that is structured." I guess that wasn't really a question, but it was in response to a livestream question.

[Morroiel]

First off, I'd like to say that this looks like fairly good changes for a start, and if they don't change anymore at least it won't be a completely trap option for the new player anymore (I've heard tales of woe of many first time players coming from dnd 5e trying to create their gish).

However, I'd like to examine why hybrid builds fail in ddo (I can think of only a handful of hybrid builds that have been successful in entire history of ddo post levelcap 20; as of now, there are none that are viable).

What do I define as a hybrid build: a build that tries to combine two or more offensive combat styles on a single build (melee + ranged, melee + off casting, ranged + off casting, etc.).

There are a few reasons why builds like this fail, historically in ddo:


Gearing requirements - this is probably one of the most egregious problems at the moment. The number of effects on gear has skyrocketed in terms of what you need to minmax a style since the levelcap was at 20. The last few gearing/loot passes we've had has seen a dramatic uptick in the number of effects. Between melee power, doublestrike, deadly, insightful deadly, sneak attack, insightful sneak attack, insightful doublestrike, armor piercing, accuracy, ability score increases, etc. and the list just keeps on going on and on, you have major problem fitting in all the effects into a single styled build like assassin much less a hybrid build. Now you add on to the fact that you only get one sentient weapon which means you are going to be down some effects in both styles or down a lot of effects in one style - this can't be overlooked.
Multiplication by 2 of requirements - when you have a hybrid build the gearing requirements, feat requirements, etc. are drastically increased (in most cases roughly multiplied by a factor of 2). If the gearing requirements weren't bad enough, try fitting in the feats you need, as well as, the destiny and scion feats to maintain two of spell power + dcs, melee power, and ranged power. Not to mention the fact that most builds (especially pure builds) have access to at most one hybrid tree. Let's take a look at sorc: savant + EK or EK + universal are really your only options. Let's take a look at ranger: DWS (hybrid tree) + AA or DWS + Tempest. You are also constrained in your enhancements that you use.
Lack of a good hybrid epic destiny (LD at one point in time was good enough for a few melee + ranged builds to exist using old mechanics). The problem is that LD (and on a few builds FotW) are so far ahead of their counterparts that you can't really function as a melee without being in one of those two destinies (and in most cases its LD). But LD provides absolutely no benefit to your spellpower, dcs, etc. For a hybrid build your best bet probably lies with Divine Crusader, a destiny that is woefully underpowered for non-magical dps compared to LD as well as plagued with quite a few build breaking bugs. If you were to optimize for spell casting you'd either go with exalted angel, shiradi, or DI - of which none of them provide meaningful boosts to your melee ability. Worse to this you have to worry about twists of fate, as you get the same number of fate points, have access to the same number of fate slots, meaning you will end up at a deficit on something. This means that you are effectively hamstrung and unable to pick a viable ED as there are none for this hybrid combat style.
Lack of Synergy - there just hasn't been any abilities or design work that has gone into making synergy in the combat styles to eliminate any of the other problems detailed in this post. For instance, including an ability which modulated your spellpower by a function of your melee power, would go a long way in eliminating quite a few of the above problems.
Lack of Compensation for Additional Constraints - when you restrict something (either by proxy or directly), it will become a less valuable / less powerful choice if you don't compensate that restriction with additional power/value. It is a pretty basic tenant of game design. All of the above aside from lack of synergy, represent restrictions or constraints on hybrid builds. You need to adjust the power that these hybrid builds have by compensating them for this restriction, otherwise you'll end up with a suboptimal build choice. The important distinction here is that the compensation needs to be appropriate for the restrictions you are levying; historically this is ultimately where most hybrid builds die, there just isn't enough power compensation for the suboptimal build optimization that it requires.


In the proposal, you have gone in a direction which isn't entirely bad. You've recognized that the above are largely problems but you've failed to pull out the major tools in your toolkit to really solve it and make EK the first in a long while of hybrid builds. You've taken half measures on a lot of things: including int/cha to hit but not to damage (completely redundant because you force pdk or harper, which means nobody will take this ability), including significant power compensations in T5s roughly equivalent to stand alone T5s in the non-hybrid trees (e.g. crit range and spell crit chance, crit multi and dcs) but adding in additional restrictions, tying a lot of build strength to the capstone and eldritch strike ability but having a low uptime on it, etc..

I've spreadsheeted and run some monte carlo simulations for this build using a wizard chasis, and I've got to say it is still FAR behind its pure counterparts. I'd suggest including int/cha to damage, allowing all effects that currently scale with spell power to also be effected by melee power, having some way to cut down gearing requirements by granting melee power for spell power or vice versa, remove the ranged restriction on Knight's Transformation, half the cooldown for eldritch tempest, increase stacking size of force's point to 15, change synergistic magic from melee power/ranged power addon to haste boost, alter improved offhand's orb effect to double or triple the USP provided, and maybe include in the T5 a way to convert DCs to exceptional deadly or something.

One final note: the Knight's Transformation reads as an effect that the devs think is a good design decision but from a player pov, it reads not only as an unfun railroading ability, but more importantly as a restriction rather than a power boost. There's already significant motivation (carrot) to being in the epic defensive stance, you don't need to gate a significant chunk of EK's power behind the same casting restrictions as the stance (you see this as synergy between the two but players will see this as you motivating them with a stick).

Tl;dr: succeeds in eliminating the noob trap, but fails to really solve the problems of hybrid builds in today's ddo

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Intelligence to damage is missing while intelligence to hit is there, and I was kind of wanting to see some sort of melee attack that deals some sort of status ailment to enemies struck.

Also, why not grant some melee power for people equipping orbs?

Please consider updating the epic destiny trees to contain benefits that activate while under the effect of Knight's Transformation to help viability in epic and legendary ranged quests?

And finally can you please add Bastard sword proficiency?

[Discpsycho]

How many Spellsword Dice can I get?
A pure 20 Wizard or Sorcerer that took all the Cores has 7d6 stable Spellsword dice, and turns it up to 11d6 when Eldritch Power is active (which you can keep up 50% of the time if you use Eldritch Blade any time it's off cooldown). Those dice scale at the normal rate with Spell Power.


I see what you did there. Time to farm up a Spinal Tap (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Spinal_Tap)!

[Propane]

Eldritch Power's buff doesn't stop you from getting further stacks - If you're running Eldritch Strike any time it's off cooldown, by the time Eldritch Power ends you should already have 2 stacks and be 6 seconds away from picking up your third. 30 seconds after Eldritch Power expires, you can hit 5 stacks again and the skill triggers.

So the skill triggers automatically when you hit the 5th stack?
If so we have to stop using the Strike if we want to save / delay the Power.

Can it be changed to being enabled and and having it's own action button after you get your 5 stacks... that way you can keep using the power....

[Sam-u-r-eye]

First off, I'd like to say that this looks like fairly good changes for a start, and if they don't change anymore at least it won't be a completely trap option for the new player anymore (I've heard tales of woe of many first time players coming from dnd 5e trying to create their gish).

However, I'd like to examine why hybrid builds fail in ddo (I can think of only a handful of hybrid builds that have been successful in entire history of ddo post levelcap 20; as of now, there are none that are viable).

What do I define as a hybrid build: a build that tries to combine two or more offensive combat styles on a single build (melee + ranged, melee + off casting, ranged + off casting, etc.).

There are a few reasons why builds like this fail, historically in ddo:


Gearing requirements - this is probably one of the most egregious problems at the moment. The number of effects on gear has skyrocketed in terms of what you need to minmax a style since the levelcap was at 20. The last few gearing/loot passes we've had has seen a dramatic uptick in the number of effects. Between melee power, doublestrike, deadly, insightful deadly, sneak attack, insightful sneak attack, insightful doublestrike, armor piercing, accuracy, ability score increases, etc. and the list just keeps on going on and on, you have major problem fitting in all the effects into a single styled build like assassin much less a hybrid build. Now you add on to the fact that you only get one sentient weapon which means you are going to be down some effects in both styles or down a lot of effects in one style - this can't be overlooked.
Multiplication by 2 of requirements - when you have a hybrid build the gearing requirements, feat requirements, etc. are drastically increased (in most cases roughly multiplied by a factor of 2). If the gearing requirements weren't bad enough, try fitting in the feats you need, as well as, the destiny and scion feats to maintain two of spell power + dcs, melee power, and ranged power. Not to mention the fact that most builds (especially pure builds) have access to at most one hybrid tree. Let's take a look at sorc: savant + EK or EK + universal are really your only options. Let's take a look at ranger: DWS (hybrid tree) + AA or DWS + Tempest. You are also constrained in your enhancements that you use.
Lack of a good hybrid epic destiny (LD at one point in time was good enough for a few melee + ranged builds to exist using old mechanics). The problem is that LD (and on a few builds FotW) are so far ahead of their counterparts that you can't really function as a melee without being in one of those two destinies (and in most cases its LD). But LD provides absolutely no benefit to your spellpower, dcs, etc. For a hybrid build your best bet probably lies with Divine Crusader, a destiny that is woefully underpowered for non-magical dps compared to LD as well as plagued with quite a few build breaking bugs. If you were to optimize for spell casting you'd either go with exalted angel, shiradi, or DI - of which none of them provide meaningful boosts to your melee ability. Worse to this you have to worry about twists of fate, as you get the same number of fate points, have access to the same number of fate slots, meaning you will end up at a deficit on something. This means that you are effectively hamstrung and unable to pick a viable ED as there are none for this hybrid combat style.
Lack of Synergy - there just hasn't been any abilities or design work that has gone into making synergy in the combat styles to eliminate any of the other problems detailed in this post. For instance, including an ability which modulated your spellpower by a function of your melee power, would go a long way in eliminating quite a few of the above problems.
Lack of Compensation for Additional Constraints - when you restrict something (either by proxy or directly), it will become a less valuable / less powerful choice if you don't compensate that restriction with additional power/value. It is a pretty basic tenant of game design. All of the above aside from lack of synergy, represent restrictions or constraints on hybrid builds. You need to adjust the power that these hybrid builds have by compensating them for this restriction, otherwise you'll end up with a suboptimal build choice. The important distinction here is that the compensation needs to be appropriate for the restrictions you are levying; historically this is ultimately where most hybrid builds die, there just isn't enough power compensation for the suboptimal build optimization that it requires.


In the proposal, you have gone in a direction which isn't entirely bad. You've recognized that the above are largely problems but you've failed to pull out the major tools in your toolkit to really solve it and make EK the first in a long while of hybrid builds. You've taken half measures on a lot of things: including int/cha to hit but not to damage (completely redundant because you force pdk or harper, which means nobody will take this ability), including significant power compensations in T5s roughly equivalent to stand alone T5s in the non-hybrid trees (e.g. crit range and spell crit chance, crit multi and dcs) but adding in additional restrictions, tying a lot of build strength to the capstone and eldritch strike ability but having a low uptime on it, etc..

I've spreadsheeted and run some monte carlo simulations for this build using a wizard chasis, and I've got to say it is still FAR behind its pure counterparts. I'd suggest including int/cha to damage, allowing all effects that currently scale with spell power to also be effected by melee power, having some way to cut down gearing requirements by granting melee power for spell power or vice versa, remove the ranged restriction on Knight's Transformation, half the cooldown for eldritch tempest, increase stacking size of force's point to 15, change synergistic magic from melee power/ranged power addon to haste boost, alter improved offhand's orb effect to double or triple the USP provided, and maybe include in the T5 a way to convert DCs to exceptional deadly or something.

One final note: the Knight's Transformation reads as an effect that the devs think is a good design decision but from a player pov, it reads not only as an unfun railroading ability, but more importantly as a restriction rather than a power boost. There's already significant motivation (carrot) to being in the epic defensive stance, you don't need to gate a significant chunk of EK's power behind the same casting restrictions as the stance (you see this as synergy between the two but players will see this as you motivating them with a stick).

Tl;dr: succeeds in eliminating the noob trap, but fails to really solve the problems of hybrid builds in today's ddo

Awesome post!!

[Tuxedoman96]

Hmm. How much do the spell swords scale by? Do the percentage decreases to ASF stack, or is it just the higher of the two (i.e. the later core means you get a total reduction of 20% to ASF)? Also, I'm concerned that granting Ghost touch so early in the tree (3 lvls of Wiz/Sorc, 6 AP) is going to make it too lucrative of a low-hanging fruit.

As far as the Perma Tenser's goes, is it not possible to have the base version as a tier 4 instead of the knight's Transformation and then have an improved toggle version at tier 5 that no longer increases CD (don't mind if you put the crit multiplier their or shove it into a later core) but reduces range to touch? That would mean that you'd choose between longer CDs on spells or having reduced range, which you can switch up according to the situation. I'd think the alchemical bonuses to Dex, Con, Str and AC are going to be very helpful as you engage with enemies toe to toe.

[cru121]

Fun! Looking forward to playing an EK soon. Not really sure how melee and spells will mesh together, let's see.

Two old things I am disappointed:
- Shield Striking temporary hp... could use a buff.
- Eldritch Tempest: Expensive (3 AP), expensive (30 SP), long cooldown, very short duration of trip, weak damage. Compare to T5 Archmage Arcane Blast: 6 SP, 6 seconds cooldown, allows metamagics for free. This ability needs something to be worth a hotbar spot. Combination of long cooldown and weak effect makes it unattractive.

New things that I would tweak:
- add Illusions to Knight Controller, or add Knight Illusionist
- Mystic Wards: maybe change to Protection from Evil SLA to keep with the theme?

[Duhboy]

Eldritch Power's buff doesn't stop you from getting further stacks - If you're running Eldritch Strike any time it's off cooldown, by the time Eldritch Power ends you should already have 2 stacks and be 6 seconds away from picking up your third. 30 seconds after Eldritch Power expires, you can hit 5 stacks again and the skill triggers.

Why not just making it a clickie activation?

[Duhboy]

Which is very nice, having casts spells like nightshield while wearing heavy armor and tower shield often 0-o even with spell agility augment its 70% failure on my tank.

Also in order to use heavy armor, you'd have to take light and medium armor as actual feats in order to take heavy armor prof.

[blerkington]

One final note: the Knight's Transformation reads as an effect that the devs think is a good design decision but from a player pov, it reads not only as an unfun railroading ability, but more importantly as a restriction rather than a power boost.

Agreed that this was a really good post, well done Morroiel.

My view is that EDF was a terrible addition to the game and it's a real shame to see a similar mechanic rearing its ugly head in this tree too. I think cooldown increases for spells while in this stance, that are reduced the more we invest in the tree, would be a better way to go.

Your comments about gearing issues stemming from the four effects per item rule are really apt too. Like the EDF restrictions, this blanket rule has a highly variable impact on different builds which has little or nothing to do with how powerful those builds currently are.

Thanks.

[cru121]

Also in order to use heavy armor, you'd have to take light and medium armor as actual feats in order to take heavy armor prof.

or multiclass

[Duhboy]

Intelligence to damage is missing while intelligence to hit is there, and I was kind of wanting to see some sort of melee attack that deals some sort of status ailment to enemies struck.


Intelligence to damage is missing from EK but one can use harper tree and get it anyways while sorcs are simply out of luck

[Duhboy]

or multiclass

into a fighter, paladin, or cleric

[Sho-sa]

Intelligence to damage is missing from EK but one can use harper tree and get it anyways while sorcs are simply out of luck

True, but one has to dump 12 APs in another tree and Bards get their stat to damage without the (rather) meaningless bonus to hit.

AND, if you do spend the 12 APs in Harper, you are spending for INT to hit as well as a prereq. Yet another reason why nobody is gonna buy this in EK.

[Ballrus]

...

Hello.
Change Eldritch Accuracy to: You get (INT/CHA) to damage with weapons and shield bashes.", and swap with Armored Arcana (tier 4).

Doublestrikes on cores: +3% each, and add 3% in core 6 (total 12% at lvl 20).

Eldritch Tempest: Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +5[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 3 second. (Activation Cost: 30/20/10 Spell points. Cooldown: 45/30/15 seconds) If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. (now 1AP per rank)

Off topic, Magister ED: allow "Nullmagic Strike" (tier 4) proc on melee attacks, and shorten the cooldown in "Nullmagic Aura' Epic Moment" (Magister tier 5) to 2 min. (5 min is too much).

Thanks in advance.

[Enoach]

I play an Elven Ftr/Wiz using the AA and EK tree

My initial review of these changes has me excited concerning the changes at the low end. Thank you for adding the spell power scaling to the elemental stances as well as making that a toggle to switch elements.

I also like the change of being both good at melee and casting even if at touch range, as I feel the current version that weakened the spell casting part was a big contributing factor to why EK worked better multi-class with a melee class

[HuneyMunster]

Sorcerer is gonna be hugely disadvantage over Wizard for Eldritch Knight. With no ability to boost their damage with Charisma which Wizard which can access through Harper, they also lack the feats to take to take both melee and casting feats. Even Wizard may find issues with finding the spare action points to get Int for damage from Harper, but they can also get extra Int to damage and tactics from Know the Angles for a decent Dire Charge added to their arsenal. Though this is all based on only what we see for EK as we don't know what will happen later when Wiz and Sorc get their full pass.


I'm not saying the tree is gonna be useless as I will still spend 24 points on my Sorcerer for +2 Cha, Medium Armor, Arcane Barrier, Improved Shield, MRR, HP and USP.

[Duhboy]

Your Eldritch Strike now grants you a Power Charge. When you have 5 Power Charges, they are removed, and you gain Eldritch Power. Eldritch Power: +10% melee damage, +4d6 Spellsword Dice, +3d4 Force Damage on Hit (this scales with Force spell power), +25 Universal spellpower, +15 PRR, +40 MRR. Duration 30 seconds.

Sigh, why can't this ability be a clickie activation?



Shield Training: (unchanged) Passive: You gain proficiency with all shields except Tower Shields, and your Arcane Spell Failure chance from equipped shields is reduced by 5%.
Why only -5% from shields? Seems like a trap.



Eldritch Accuracy: You get (INT/CHA) to hit with weapons and shield bashes.
Why ONLY to hit? Wizards wouldn't be affected because of dipping into Harper tree for INT to damage while a sorc is out of luck.



Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the enhancement bonus of your equipped shield.
Orb Saves: +1/2/3 to saving throws and +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power while holding an Orb

Would be nice to add combat speed while using a shield.


Armored Arcana: You gain proficiency in Medium Armor, and suffer no Arcane Spell Failure from Light or Medium Armor
No heavy armor? If you are a pure wizard or sorc, in order to take heavy armor, you have to spend 2 feats (light and medium armor prof) in order to take heavy.


Improved Knight's Transformation: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with Melee Weapons.
Does this applies to shields aswell?


Force's Edge: When you cast a spell, you gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range for 12 seconds. When you make a Melee Attack, you gain +5% Spell Critical Chance for 12 seconds.

I don't see the point in this ability. Why not just add a +1 to threat range to Improved Knight's Transformation.

[AlmGhandi]

Eldritch Power's buff doesn't stop you from getting further stacks - If you're running Eldritch Strike any time it's off cooldown, by the time Eldritch Power ends you should already have 2 stacks and be 6 seconds away from picking up your third. 30 seconds after Eldritch Power expires, you can hit 5 stacks again and the skill triggers.

Im gonna need to get some LR 20 hearts to change my eldritch knights to something else.

[Tuxedoman96]

Agreed that this was a really good post, well done Morroiel.

My view is that EDF was a terrible addition to the game and it's a real shame to see a similar mechanic rearing its ugly head in this tree too. I think cooldown increases for spells while in this stance, that are reduced the more we invest in the tree, would be a better way to go.

Your comments about gearing issues stemming from the four effects per item rule are really apt too. Like the EDF restrictions, this blanket rule has a highly variable impact on different builds which has little or nothing to do with how powerful those builds currently are.

Thanks.

See, much like the EDF, I don't actually mind the touch range penalty for damaging spells. However, I think that non-damaging spells (heals, repairs, buffs; inflicts spells would be a bit rough because IIRC they are coded as offensive spells) should not have their range reduced from either effect. It takes away from the party play, and, at least for EDF, you still have to have those combat style feats to really benefit from it (Not sure a 5% boost to HP for Clrs, FvSs, and Drds is going to mean much in the wake of reduced offensive casting).

[Sho-sa]

Also, I'm concerned that granting Ghost touch so early in the tree (3 lvls of Wiz/Sorc, 6 AP) is going to make it too lucrative of a low-hanging fruit.


I am completely on the opposite side of this. Since the Reaper promise was broken and it has become the new standard of play and Devs are balancing for it, this is a GREAT simple help for Reapers' incorp. I would even argue AA needs a pass wherein Elemental and Ghost Touch (Force Arrows) should be combined in the same ability rather having to spend extra APs for Force Arrows and make a toggle choice for smaller damage dice.

Keep this EK core pass most definitely, please.

[GramercyRiff]

Knight's Transformation needs more gains/buffs or better gains/buffs for the severe drawback of making every spell touch range.

The tempest thing...jumping through too many hoops to get the benefit.

At the very least, EK isn't incredibly bad now. It's not bad, but it can be better. There's still plenty of room before you enter OP territory.



Also racial ASF reduction stacks with EK ASF reduction yes?

[Sho-sa]

See, much like the EDF, I don't actually mind the touch range penalty for damaging spells. However, I think that non-damaging spells (heals, repairs, buffs; inflicts spells would be a bit rough because IIRC they are coded as offensive spells) should not have their range reduced from either effect. It takes away from the party play, and, at least for EDF, you still have to have those combat style feats to really benefit from it (Not sure a 5% boost to HP for Clrs, FvSs, and Drds is going to mean much in the wake of reduced offensive casting).



Is this going to affect Minor Vigor + Mass from DWS and Vigor from Wood Elf racial?

[Tlorrd]

snip

Nice commentary; however, your comments appear related to the high reaper and high reaper end game crowd where specialization is needed.

artificer comes to mind ... great low reaper solo or group support that can melee or range and use spell power with rune arms etc. However, in high reaper ... the special parts of arty are usually multiclassed to create a more specialized build.

These changes make a solo or grouping EK build viable for low reaper/elite/hard crowd. If I am incorrect please correct or you can specify which type of player you are referring to.

[Ballrus]

Sigh...

Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the enhancement bonus of your equipped shield.
Orb Saves: +1/2/3 to saving throws and +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power while holding an Orb

Would be nice to add combat speed while using a shield.
This^

Shield bash, without Vanguard core 6 are meh. Change the shield bash % to melee attack speed (3%/6%/10%), and Orb Saves to: +2/4/6 saving throws and +5/10/15 USP.

[Tuxedoman96]

I am completely on the opposite side of this. Since the Reaper promise was broken and it has become the new standard of play and Devs are balancing for it, this is a GREAT simple help for Reapers' incorp. I would even argue AA needs a pass wherein Elemental and Ghost Touch (Force Arrows) should be combined in the same ability rather having to spend extra APs for Force Arrows and make a toggle choice for smaller damage dice.

Keep this EK core pass most definitely, please.

However, I'm also looking at this in regards to other trees an abilities that grant ghost touch. KotC grants it at lvl 6 and 11 pts. Scourge grants it at lvl 7 with 4 pts. Heck, vistani gives it at lvl 12 for 32 pts. The only tree off the top of my head that provides ghost touch sooner is AA, and that's not even melee focused and falls into the weakness of being poor at CQC (while also not having a good alternative to that like casters do). Why give something much sooner to a tree that other melee focused classes and trees get later? In addition, while reaper has indeed become the norm, that doesn't stop someone from getting the appropriate ghost touch item or just waiting until they have such an ability, no? Or using spells (since they are casters).

[Tuxedoman96]

Is this going to affect Minor Vigor + Mass from DWS and Vigor from Wood Elf racial?

What are you referring to here? Are you asking if the EDF reduces those to touch range or if my suggestion would keep them safe? Because as far as I understand it, any spell, or SLA is reduced to touch range. This does not include things like LoHs or the Channel Divinities, but it does include things like the monk finishers (which don't benefit from metamagic, go figure). Haven't tried it on bardic songs either.

[Sho-sa]

What are you referring to here? Are you asking if the EDF reduces those to touch range or if my suggestion would keep them safe?

Sorry, to clarify if the EDF reduces these to touch range.

I think we all have been fairly clear with our dislike for EDF.

Devs, stop creating barriers to party play, please.

[Morroiel]

Nice commentary; however, your comments appear related to the high reaper and high reaper end game crowd. These changes make a solo or grouping EK build viable for low reaper/elite/hard crowd. If I am incorrect please correct or you can specify which type of player you are referring to.

My comments hold true for any level of gameplay at level 30 - EK builds will fail to compete in a meaningful way with tempests, dc casters, dps casters, barbarians, kensai fighters, assassins, etc. etc. at all levels of gameplay. This does not just solely concern high reaper endgame play.

[Steelstar]

Does Core 4 -20% ASF supersede the Core 3 -15% ASF? Or will this be a total of -35% Arcane Spell Failure?
Total of 35%.


Very nice changes overall for sure. While at first I was disappointed at the lack of INT/CHA to Weap Dmg, I think that the changes to the Spellswords probably make up for that. Since the idea is that the Eldritch Knight is dealing damage more through arcane means powered by SP rather than martial ability, I can't really complain.

That's definitely a big part of it.


Re. Force's Edge.

Seems like interrupting your attack sequence with a spell cast for a 12 second threat range increase is likely to cause a lower damage output, not higher. I am more than happy to be wrong, this is just a gut feeling.

Is it likely to be much actual help? What am I missing?
Depends on what you're casting, really. But with everything from this tree stacking up the way it does, you want to rotate between strong DPS spells and melee attacks anyway. If you want optimal DPS out of the tree, you have to play it differently than you would a standard melee or caster.


So the skill triggers automatically when you hit the 5th stack?
If so we have to stop using the Strike if we want to save / delay the Power.

Can it be changed to being enabled and and having it's own action button after you get your 5 stacks... that way you can keep using the power....
I can see the comparisons to the former Warpriest/War Soul ability people are making; however: EK's already got a lot of clickable things to keep track of, this lasts a lot longer than the instantaneous AOE of Divine Vessel, and in playtesting this proved strong, counterbalanced by the fact that it takes more skill to min/max your use of the ability.




Eldritch Tempest: Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +5[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 3 second. (Activation Cost: 30/20/10 Spell points. Cooldown: 45/30/15 seconds) If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. (now 1AP per rank)

Woof, that'd be... extremely strong. Get more than one of these in a party, and you'll be invincible to everything that isn't Red or Purple named.


Sorcerer is gonna be hugely disadvantage over Wizard for Eldritch Knight. With no ability to boost their damage with Charisma which Wizard which can access through Harper, they also lack the feats to take to take both melee and casting feats. Even Wizard may find issues with finding the spare action points to get Int for damage from Harper, but they can also get extra Int to damage and tactics from Know the Angles for a decent Dire Charge added to their arsenal. Though this is all based on only what we see for EK as we don't know what will happen later when Wiz and Sorc get their full pass.


I'm not saying the tree is gonna be useless as I will still spend 24 points on my Sorcerer for +2 Cha, Medium Armor, Arcane Barrier, Improved Shield, MRR, HP and USP.
It was our initial impression as well that Wizard was going to mercilessly outclass Sorcerer in Eldritch Knight. In playtesting, they end up playing somewhat differently but ultimately come out to about the same DPS depending on how you build. It's closer than one would think, even after accounting for things like Harper.



Why only -5% from shields? Seems like a trap.

Because you're getting 35% more out of the Cores.



Would be nice to add combat speed while using a shield.

Combat speed isn't something we can throw around lightly, especially in something as weapon-agnostic as this tree. Also, it doesn't need it.



No heavy armor? If you are a pure wizard or sorc, in order to take heavy armor, you have to spend 2 feats (light and medium armor prof) in order to take heavy.

Intended. Not everyone should be in Heavy Armor. Least of all Wizards and Sorcerers, even if they are Eldritch Knights. If you want Heavy, you have the option of taking several feats or multiclassing.



Does this applies to shields aswell?

Probably not, but it could. We'll take a look.



I don't see the point in this ability. Why not just add a +1 to threat range to Improved Knight's Transformation.
To reinforce the theme of "Casting makes your attacks better, attacking makes your spells better". Understanding that is core to understanding how to use this tree.


Knight's Transformation needs more gains/buffs or better gains/buffs for the severe drawback of making every spell touch range.

The tempest thing...jumping through too many hoops to get the benefit.

At the very least, EK isn't incredibly bad now. It's not bad, but it can be better. There's still plenty of room before you enter OP territory.



Also racial ASF reduction stacks with EK ASF reduction yes?
Knight's Transformation might indeed need a few more things to justify the range reduction.

We aren't aiming for OP territory, so that's good to hear, at least! :)

Yes, Racial ASF should stack with this.

[Tuxedoman96]

My comments hold true for any level of gameplay at level 30 - EK builds will fail to compete in a meaningful way with tempests, dc casters, dps casters, barbarians, kensai fighters, assassins, etc. etc. at all levels of gameplay. This does not just solely concern high reaper endgame play.

If I may ask, how would you propose a hybrid build like EK should be able to compete with those groups? I know that you provided suggestions for the tree, but I'm asking conceptually. Where should their DPS lie? Where should their CC lie? Where should the ability to dish out punishing spells lie? All in relation to more or less specialized members of the trades in question.

[Tuxedoman96]

Sorry, to clarify if the EDF reduces these to touch range.

I think we all have been fairly clear with our dislike for EDF.

Devs, stop creating barriers to party play, please.

Haven't personally tried it (need to hop onto lamaland when I get the chance), but there is strong evidence that it does. The Wood elf and DWS vigors are considered SLAs that benefit from metamagics.

[NemesisAlien]

EDF should have a mana shield, so hp damage occurs only after 0 mana...

Still can get one shotted in epic reaper though ;)

[Niminae]

Im gonna need to get some LR 20 hearts to change my eldritch knights to something else.

I don't see you getting as lot of sympathy here, since even before these changes you'd need "some LR 20 hearts to change my eldritch knights to something else."

Did you have a specific point to make, or were you just saying that your lousy build before these changes was still a lousy build? They did improve things a bit, that's not something that you can deny.

[Tuxedoman96]

Knight's Transformation might indeed need a few more things to justify the range reduction.

Hmm. Is it not possible to keep the Tenser's (or provide a similar bonus aside from just the BAB bonus)? Part of the thing I'm looking at (aside from the fact that you could make an Improved Tenser's Toggle at tier 5) is that depending on how many levels of wizard you have, you can still have a decent amount of rotation for your spells (a pure wizard gets 45 spells at his disposal at a time plus whatever SLAs he gets; pure sorcs get 32 plus SLAs, and the SLAs do not suffer from the CD problem anyways). Having the toggle switch between increased CD duration and decreased range also means that you change up your style depending on the situation. You could have the first toggle give the alchemical bonuses and whatnot with increased CD (operating with the magical energies enhancing your body more than your spells) and the second toggle shed that for increased spell power, crit, and DCs at the expense of range (operating with the magical energies bursting forth to quickly subdue your foes).

[Morroiel]

If I may ask, how would you propose a hybrid build like EK should be able to compete with those groups? I know that you provided suggestions for the tree, but I'm asking conceptually. Where should their DPS lie? Where should their CC lie? Where should the ability to dish out punishing spells lie? All in relation to more or less specialized members of the trades in question.

On a conceptual level I think its wrong to talk about how a hybrid builds functions in its separate domains. In some cases (good design) the parts working together will provide synergy and therefore be greater than the sum of their parts. In other cases (bad design) the parts are disjoint, clunky and are in fact less than the sum of their parts.

Ideally when combined, they should perform (as a whole) at the same level as any other singular-focused build. Additionally, it would probably be best if there were multiple paths to success (rather than what is so often the case countless paths to failure) - meaning you should be able to spec more heavily in melee vs speccing more heavily in casting and a wide spectrum of build possibilities should be viable. Obviously the more you invest in something, the better you should be at it, which means that if you were to look solely at the melee part of these hybrid builds they necessarily need to perform worse than their purer counterparts. However, this should not stop them from competing at the same level when you focus on holistic measures.

I know this reads kind of like a non-answer, but its the best I can offer. Game design is tricky, and it is much easier to identify shortcomings than to generate a prescription for success.

One thing in particular I'd love to see more of, is for the devs to take bigger risks in the initial design - most everything we should see in the first phases of lammania should have the numbers tuned on overdrive (nerfs, buffs, drastic changes, etc.). Iterative game design is how you end up with solid game design (this isn't an opinion, this is a well known fact in the industry); you should always do small changes last. I think there's a disconnect between the devs and the players a lot of the times because they do iterative game design but hide the bulk of the process in their own internal testing, which time and time again has shown to be completely ineffective in gauging whether the design was successful (especially when using the measure of player character power).

[Zeklijan]

So i looked at all the new stuff, and honestly i think thats a good start.

The problem I have with the current build is that I cannot see it being useful in the endgame, though this is probably due to how the game was designed. It rewards very specialized gameplay and hybrids aren't very useful overall.

Anyways, I think there's a few things I see as possible improvements:
1: Make the on spell cast, weapon crit buff last longer. 12 secs is gunna be a very tedious uptime. 30s sounds much better.
2: There should be a way to slap both damage and to hit on casting score (INT/CHA) like the falconer, it would streamline stats and gear a little bit more (hybrid gear is already a mess most of the time)

Thank you

[Steelstar]

1: Make the on spell cast, weapon crit buff last longer. 12 secs is gunna be a very tedious uptime. 30s sounds much better.


To be a little blunt: If you're in Tier 5 of this tree, and aren't casting one offensive spell at least once every 12 seconds you're probably not playing this tree effectively.

[GramercyRiff]

Knight's Transformation might indeed need a few more things to justify the range reduction.

We aren't aiming for OP territory, so that's good to hear, at least! :)

Yes, Racial ASF should stack with this.

Good to hear you're open to giving a bit more to Transformation. It just needs more offensive punch. I see it as the signature ability of this tree and it just needs a bit more love. I really like the idea of it, it just needs more or better.

I like Spellsword and borderline love the synergistic action boost thing. Eldritch Strike and the stuff that goes with it is something I'd have to test out.

edit: I liked to hear that Arcane Warrior is getting a buff.

I'll also add that giving EK types some gear love would be awesome; gear especially tuned for them (as well as other melee/caster types).

[Ballrus]

To be a little blunt: If you're in Tier 5 of this tree, and aren't casting one offensive spell at least once every 12 seconds you're probably not playing this tree effectively.

Hummm, Death Aura proc it? And Crusade?

[HuneyMunster]

It was our initial impression as well that Wizard was going to mercilessly outclass Sorcerer in Eldritch Knight. In playtesting, they end up playing somewhat differently but ultimately come out to about the same DPS depending on how you build. It's closer than one would think, even after accounting for things like Harper.



Did you take into account that Wizards will more likely to be able to take four of the SWF, THF or TWF feats to gain 25% hp from Epic Defensive Fighting to increase their survivability while casting and fighting at melee range? I'm assuming Epic Defensive Fighting will be compatible with Knight's Transformation?


I also heard mentioned planned improvements for Palemaster which maybe will help them stay alive. I would think if paired with EK it could make an interesting Death knight kind of build.

[blerkington]

See, much like the EDF, I don't actually mind the touch range penalty for damaging spells. However, I think that non-damaging spells (heals, repairs, buffs; inflicts spells would be a bit rough because IIRC they are coded as offensive spells) should not have their range reduced from either effect. It takes away from the party play, and, at least for EDF, you still have to have those combat style feats to really benefit from it (Not sure a 5% boost to HP for Clrs, FvSs, and Drds is going to mean much in the wake of reduced offensive casting).

That's a good point. I don't think these builds will ever be so powerful that they really need a short range limit on offensive spells. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if their offensive spells had a shorter range for the benefit of not having increased cooldowns.

But both for this stance and EDF the range restriction on buffs, heals and scroll use is what really pushes it well into very bad idea territory for me. This marks the difference between tough choices and needless anti-fun, anti-teamwork restrictions on abilities that those builds should be able to use properly.

Thanks.

[GramercyRiff]

Oh yeah regarding Transmutation spells. These spells are the bread and butter of the arcane gish. Transmutation is a powerhouse school of incredible buffs. For me and many others, it's the school that rests comfortably under the godlike power of Conjuration in pnp. In DDO though, we are lacking Transmutation's fun and varied power.

I might be asking too much here, but some more great Transmutation buff spells would be amazing. I know Polymorph is broke like a joke in pnp, and it's probably ok that it doesn't exist in DDO (nor could it exist because of the complexity and varied forms also yeah Fly is amazing but it breaks even pnp at times), but some spells that are similar that give nice unique buffs would be fantastic. The "Bite of" spells were pretty cool. You can adjust them to fit DDO better if need be. Wraithstrike might be too good, but it's something I think you should consider. Greater Mighty Wallop also.

And then there's Blink, Greater Blink, Mirror Image and Greater Mirror Image (latter two are Illusion another school that is outstanding and could use more). Amazing spells. I'm leaving out a lot, but one last one because it's Mindblank. I realize this is outside the parameters of EK, but felt the need to address this. We need more spells that do different and good things because spells are fun.

Also thumbs up to the Ghost Touch thing in this tree.

[Tuxedoman96]

Core 1: Eldritch Strike:[/B] Melee Cleave Attack. +1[w]. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes.(Activation Cost: 0 SP Cooldown: 12 seconds)
You gain proficiency with Simple Weapons
Every Core Ability in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you +10 Max HP

Don't Sorcs have full simple weapon proficiency? Would they get something else to compensate?

[Mindos]

What the math on this tree? How high can I get my to-hit? When do I get diminishing returns? I am concerned a Wizard front line melee sounds nice, but what good is swinging a weapon if all I ever hit is air?

[Katalissa]

Well, it's certainly interesting overall - definitely an improvement and I can imagine it will play quite differently.

I like the way it actually encourages mixing up spells with melee, and gives the player something to think about as far as balancing the two to get maximum power out of it! It will be an interesting challenge.

Core 1: Eldritch Strike: Melee Cleave Attack. +1[w]. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes.(Activation Cost: 0 SP Cooldown: 12 seconds)

I take it this basic strike is NOT going to scale damage with force power? Bit of a shame.


Every Core Ability in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you +10 Max HP

Nice! Some extra HP never goes astray!


Core 3: Melee weapons are considered Spellcasting Implements in your hands. You gain the Quick Draw feat.

I take it this has no meaning other than quick draw, so reducing time between casting and back to melee?


Arcane Siphon: Melee Attack:+1/2/3[w]. On hit: Gain +10/20/30 Universal Spell Power for 20 seconds. 12 second cooldown.

Interesting. Very interesting.


Arcane Barrier: (Now 1 Rank): Passive: When your HP drop below 50% of maximum, you are immediately protected by an Arcane Barrier that reduces all incoming damage by 25% for the next 20 seconds. This effect may only trigger once every 90 seconds.

One request - is it possible to make the visual effect for this a little smaller or less intrusive. I personally find the giant spinning orb visually intrusive, to the point it is quite distracting and I end up wishing it would go away! I wish it looked more like the Tensor's effect, and Tenser's was in turn even more subtle.


Eldritch Accuracy: You get (INT/CHA) to hit with weapons and shield bashes.

Looks like I'm not alone in wishing for a damage option too/instead of. Maybe as an extra rank? (seeing as the tree is already full). Make it cost a lot if you want, hell, make it three ranks with INT to damage only on the 3rd one, and something else in between? But please please please make it an option somewhere. :D


Improved Offhand: Multiselector:
Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the enhancement bonus of your equipped shield.
Orb Saves: +1/2/3 to saving throws and +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power while holding an Orb

Somewhat ironically, this doesn't seem to provide anything for the TWF style... :confused:
How about a third toggle that gives a small boost to attack chance with your off hand weapon, even if its only, say 10%, vs the full 20% you'd get with the feat.
OR, and this is something I've been thinking about for a while, a toggle that lets you treat any spell-casting implement in your off hand as an orb for combat purposes - so, you could have a sceptre in the off hand while still single-weapon fighting. It would make a combat style unique to Eldritch Knight (Sword and Sceptre?) and justify going the single-weapon fighting route for feats. Or make orbs more common, because they are currently as rare as hen's teeth.


Improved Knight's Transformation: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with Melee Weapons.

This is an interesting change, vs the Tensers. I'm wondering though - could it be a selector that either gives Knight's Transformation, OR Tensers with ranged spells still working, BUT the associated penalties and longer cooldowns?


Overall, it is an exciting change and I'm really looking forward to seeing how it goes. :cool:

[Tuxedoman96]

On a conceptual level I think its wrong to talk about how a hybrid builds functions in its separate domains. In some cases (good design) the parts working together will provide synergy and therefore be greater than the sum of their parts. In other cases (bad design) the parts are disjoint, clunky and are in fact less than the sum of their parts.

Ideally when combined, they should perform (as a whole) at the same level as any other singular-focused build. Additionally, it would probably be best if there were multiple paths to success (rather than what is so often the case countless paths to failure) - meaning you should be able to spec more heavily in melee vs speccing more heavily in casting and a wide spectrum of build possibilities should be viable. Obviously the more you invest in something, the better you should be at it, which means that if you were to look solely at the melee part of these hybrid builds they necessarily need to perform worse than their purer counterparts. However, this should not stop them from competing at the same level when you focus on holistic measures.

I know this reads kind of like a non-answer, but its the best I can offer. Game design is tricky, and it is much easier to identify shortcomings than to generate a prescription for success.

That's fair, and I'd say I have similar thoughts to yourself in that manner. I do think it makes it a bit more difficult to really gauge the effectiveness of hybrids. I hear many times that the DPS is subpar comparatively (and that seems to be true) or that the spell casting aspect is subpar (which can also be reasonably seen). However, I'd say spell selection and feats are a pretty big part of the effectiveness as well. Which is why I try to take "effectiveness" in regards to class trees with a grain of salt.

That being said, I definitely agree that there were marked points of improvement to look towards. Not spending 10 spell points every 12 seconds is definitely a plus. Prior to this change it made battles of attrition much harsher on the EK than it did on similar hybrids. I like the scaling that has been added to the spellswords, not because I feel they should be doing more dmg, but because, as you presented in an earlier post, there is a need to specc for multiple attributes. The EK tree pre-proposal gave very little benefit for the spellswords, which is supposed to be the main method of dmg. This meant the dmg wasn't scaling well despite the sacrifices made to aid in that department (pretty much you were investing in a lost cause). Now, while the spellswords won't be "uber" (and some might say won't be competitive), you'd be improving both your spells and your non-spell dmg with spell power. The CC largely depends on how many levels people are taking in those classes though. I will say that I still think there is a bit of a problem with the survivability with the tree (at least on the sorc side; wizards can use PM if they feel the need to) without being WF, at least for awhile. However, I also understand that the tree still leaves a lot of leeway to multiclass.


One thing in particular I'd love to see more of, is for the devs to take bigger risks in the initial design - most everything we should see in the first phases of lammania should have the numbers tuned on overdrive (nerfs, buffs, drastic changes, etc.). Iterative game design is how you end up with solid game design (this isn't an opinion, this is a well known fact in the industry); you should always do small changes last. I think there's a disconnect between the devs and the players a lot of the times because they do iterative game design but hide the bulk of the process in their own internal testing, which time and time again has shown to be completely ineffective in gauging whether the design was successful (especially when using the measure of player character power).

In complete agreement with this.

[Silverleafeon]

Two elements that are absolutely positively essential for a melee caster hybrid to work is having Quick Draw & Quicken metamagic feats.



Which brings us to the sticky point that all Metamagics including Quicken cost way too much spell points.


If you want this tree to work, highly recommend revising the Quicken feat to be free (or almost free) spell point cost.

You could even offer a new Meta feat - Improved Quicken with a meta prerequisite and feel the cost is simply the feat tax.



Also, since the caster is investing heavily in the Knight tree, there is less opportunity to gain SLAs for offensive casting, therefore this tree will feel a heavier burden using Max & Empower than the typical spellcasting build, simply because MetaMagics Cost too much to use.


I feel that Metamagics should be a simple feat tax with zero sp cost.
But I am willing to compromise to a reduction in cost to 20-25% of current.

This will also reduce some of the gap between warlock and other spellcasters due to ability to cast spells more freely.


D&D lore simply uses higher spell slots, which is interesting.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

First off, I'd like to say that this looks like fairly good changes for a start, and if they don't change anymore at least it won't be a completely trap option for the new player anymore (I've heard tales of woe of many first time players coming from dnd 5e trying to create their gish).

However, I'd like to examine why hybrid builds fail in ddo (I can think of only a handful of hybrid builds that have been successful in entire history of ddo post levelcap 20; as of now, there are none that are viable).

What do I define as a hybrid build: a build that tries to combine two or more offensive combat styles on a single build (melee + ranged, melee + off casting, ranged + off casting, etc.).

There are a few reasons why builds like this fail, historically in ddo:


Gearing requirements - this is probably one of the most egregious problems at the moment. The number of effects on gear has skyrocketed in terms of what you need to minmax a style since the levelcap was at 20. The last few gearing/loot passes we've had has seen a dramatic uptick in the number of effects. Between melee power, doublestrike, deadly, insightful deadly, sneak attack, insightful sneak attack, insightful doublestrike, armor piercing, accuracy, ability score increases, etc. and the list just keeps on going on and on, you have major problem fitting in all the effects into a single styled build like assassin much less a hybrid build. Now you add on to the fact that you only get one sentient weapon which means you are going to be down some effects in both styles or down a lot of effects in one style - this can't be overlooked.
Multiplication by 2 of requirements - when you have a hybrid build the gearing requirements, feat requirements, etc. are drastically increased (in most cases roughly multiplied by a factor of 2). If the gearing requirements weren't bad enough, try fitting in the feats you need, as well as, the destiny and scion feats to maintain two of spell power + dcs, melee power, and ranged power. Not to mention the fact that most builds (especially pure builds) have access to at most one hybrid tree. Let's take a look at sorc: savant + EK or EK + universal are really your only options. Let's take a look at ranger: DWS (hybrid tree) + AA or DWS + Tempest. You are also constrained in your enhancements that you use.
Lack of a good hybrid epic destiny (LD at one point in time was good enough for a few melee + ranged builds to exist using old mechanics). The problem is that LD (and on a few builds FotW) are so far ahead of their counterparts that you can't really function as a melee without being in one of those two destinies (and in most cases its LD). But LD provides absolutely no benefit to your spellpower, dcs, etc. For a hybrid build your best bet probably lies with Divine Crusader, a destiny that is woefully underpowered for non-magical dps compared to LD as well as plagued with quite a few build breaking bugs. If you were to optimize for spell casting you'd either go with exalted angel, shiradi, or DI - of which none of them provide meaningful boosts to your melee ability. Worse to this you have to worry about twists of fate, as you get the same number of fate points, have access to the same number of fate slots, meaning you will end up at a deficit on something. This means that you are effectively hamstrung and unable to pick a viable ED as there are none for this hybrid combat style.
Lack of Synergy - there just hasn't been any abilities or design work that has gone into making synergy in the combat styles to eliminate any of the other problems detailed in this post. For instance, including an ability which modulated your spellpower by a function of your melee power, would go a long way in eliminating quite a few of the above problems.
Lack of Compensation for Additional Constraints - when you restrict something (either by proxy or directly), it will become a less valuable / less powerful choice if you don't compensate that restriction with additional power/value. It is a pretty basic tenant of game design. All of the above aside from lack of synergy, represent restrictions or constraints on hybrid builds. You need to adjust the power that these hybrid builds have by compensating them for this restriction, otherwise you'll end up with a suboptimal build choice. The important distinction here is that the compensation needs to be appropriate for the restrictions you are levying; historically this is ultimately where most hybrid builds die, there just isn't enough power compensation for the suboptimal build optimization that it requires.


In the proposal, you have gone in a direction which isn't entirely bad. You've recognized that the above are largely problems but you've failed to pull out the major tools in your toolkit to really solve it and make EK the first in a long while of hybrid builds. You've taken half measures on a lot of things: including int/cha to hit but not to damage (completely redundant because you force pdk or harper, which means nobody will take this ability), including significant power compensations in T5s roughly equivalent to stand alone T5s in the non-hybrid trees (e.g. crit range and spell crit chance, crit multi and dcs) but adding in additional restrictions, tying a lot of build strength to the capstone and eldritch strike ability but having a low uptime on it, etc..

I've spreadsheeted and run some monte carlo simulations for this build using a wizard chasis, and I've got to say it is still FAR behind its pure counterparts. I'd suggest including int/cha to damage, allowing all effects that currently scale with spell power to also be effected by melee power, having some way to cut down gearing requirements by granting melee power for spell power or vice versa, remove the ranged restriction on Knight's Transformation, half the cooldown for eldritch tempest, increase stacking size of force's point to 15, change synergistic magic from melee power/ranged power addon to haste boost, alter improved offhand's orb effect to double or triple the USP provided, and maybe include in the T5 a way to convert DCs to exceptional deadly or something.

One final note: the Knight's Transformation reads as an effect that the devs think is a good design decision but from a player pov, it reads not only as an unfun railroading ability, but more importantly as a restriction rather than a power boost. There's already significant motivation (carrot) to being in the epic defensive stance, you don't need to gate a significant chunk of EK's power behind the same casting restrictions as the stance (you see this as synergy between the two but players will see this as you motivating them with a stick).

Tl;dr: succeeds in eliminating the noob trap, but fails to really solve the problems of hybrid builds in today's ddo

I too wish to echo this post. I had started to type up a whole thing, but this points out the issues pretty succinctly. The more attention this post gets the better the game will be imho.

[Vish]

Ok, looked it over
Better maybe, or of course
I'm doing racials ATM
And got some gnomes to do
So I'll give it a test
I've tried to build arcane warriors
Mostly off warlock templates
And I've got some ideas over how this might play out
But I may take one to 30
Just to test updated arcane warrior?
I'll let you know the results

[Jetrule]

I like the tree and the playstyle of cast and hack it seems geared for. There are gearing issues with the concept and feat issues that will make a Melee dps e.k. especially hard to maximize its true but it looks like a great leveling build and a great ranged or fast attack elemental damage dps build.

On first glance this tree seems to be ideally suited for a wizard in vampire or wraith form, much more than for a sorcerer. The extra feats a wiz gets will allow for combat and spell casting feats much easier. The synergy of harper and melee wizard will also result in much better dps. Especially for a pure build. Only a PDK sorc could hope to compete physical dps wise with cha as a main stat. Self healing for a eldritch knight will be very synergistic with a palemaster. Neg energy burst being buffed will help alot and it will qualify for charging some of the knights abilities. The forged sorcerer eldritch knight could have powerful self healing but no cha to damage option with out a heavy dip into swashbuckler or compensating some by picking up divine might from a divine splash. I suppose a sorc could be well served by running in EA once it gets into epics or even Crusader or Sentinel to get some good self healing and heavy focus on the elemental weapon imbues. Hmm. A elemental imbue dps and enchant focused sorc running in Unyielding Sentinel or Exaulted Angel sounds like it may be good except for the low physical damage.

Will any of the spell damages from weapon attacks/special attacks crit?

Can a arcane archer run both EK and Arcane Archer weapon imbues on a bow?


It just feels like with the advantages wiz has over sorc for this tree Cha to damage could be added to the sorc tree. Perhaps ad it to Knight's Transformation?

[Xyfiel]

A lot of people are selling Sorc short in comparisons. Sorcs can break immunity, get more spell power potential, more caster levels, and shorter cooldowns. They won't do the same melee damage but they make up for it in casting power.

Stat to damage is made up for with the potential of spellsword. Do some math on it. Also, AA doesn't get stat to hit or damage either and no one complains about it.

We are only seeing the EK changes. When the other caster trees get done the best builds will change. This also means you may want capstones and tier V's in different trees. That doesn't leave room for intelligence to damage.

[Burakii]

I'v always wanted to play a Knight in DDO Thank you:D

Just 2 things

1.

Transformation might indeed need a few more things to justify the range reduction.


I agree Knight's Transformation definitely feels like the main theme of the tree, and yet something is missing from Improved Knight's Transformation not sure what but it feels 80% there, needs just a little something more. Edit:This just came to me give it synergy with EDF while both active extra 10% HP or PRR

2.I will multi-class My KNIGHT if you go with current build, don't get me wrong great flavor and good power BUT, I will go Strength to hit and damage because your not giving Int. to damage.

I hate to tell you this because I'm loving the whole Knight Theme but again as with 40% of your builds Cap Stone/Core 6 is not compelling enough. 'Most of my friends are theorycrafting Multi-Class builds and the suggestion is Int to damage in last core would make it a hard not to go PURE!!! Edit: Core 5 is also weak no reason to go passed core 4 for me with your current build.

[FuzzyDuck81]

It was our initial impression as well that Wizard was going to mercilessly outclass Sorcerer in Eldritch Knight. In playtesting, they end up playing somewhat differently but ultimately come out to about the same DPS depending on how you build. It's closer than one would think, even after accounting for things like Harper.


I'd guess the faster casting speed sorcerers get played a pretty big part in this, especially with quick draw to eliminate the gap between casting & fighting?

[elvesunited]

To be a little blunt: If you're in Tier 5 of this tree, and aren't casting one offensive spell at least once every 12 seconds you're probably not playing this tree effectively.

As the tree lacks offensive SLAs and/or temporary spell points, how is it possible to maintain sustainable DPS though rapid alternating between offensive spellcasting and melee attacks? The only effective spells ( in terms of spellpoint cost and cast speed ) I could think of would be low level touch range spells without metamagics ( not that they'd have many of those anyway as many feat choices would be spent on melee ) that would be doing less damage than the damage of the weapon. So you'd be taking breaks from your more effective melee attacks to cast low level spell attacks to maintain optimum damage on your melee.

[AlmGhandi]

I don't see you getting as lot of sympathy here, since even before these changes you'd need "some LR 20 hearts to change my eldritch knights to something else."

Did you have a specific point to make, or were you just saying that your lousy build before these changes was still a lousy build? They did improve things a bit, that's not something that you can deny.

I was actually saying that I am very happy with Eldritch Knight and am quite sure that these changes will make it less fun for me.
I did wizard with a bit of harper and sorcerer lives, pure and splashed... spent more time running around in Epic levels as an Eldritch Knight than anything else... I am going to miss the old ways.

[Katalissa]

...I am very happy with Eldritch Knight and am quite sure that these changes will make it less fun for me... spent more time running around in Epic levels as an Eldritch Knight than anything else... I am going to miss the old ways.

What specifically in this new tree is going to make it less fun or ruin your "old ways"? The only REALLY major change that gets rid of something for something new is the Knight's Transformation instead of Tensers - and you COULD always use Tensers as a spell... The rest is mainly better versions of the same, and a few extra tricks we didn't have before.

[Zites]

The real question is as Sev and Tor put it (if we never see it in gameplay that's something we want to fix.)

Will the elitist want EK in their mid reapers r5-7 party?

Will EK be welcome in r1-3 raids?

They are already saying no with out event testing it, so if we never see it in gameplay have you really fixed it?

[Saekee]

just to add to other points:
I don’t understand the lore behind stacking incorp, let alone why you keep giving out deflect arrows & quickdraw

I feel there should be sources of temporary hp

I want to see effects that make these warriors capable of opposing other spellcasters since they innately understand magic. So please add nullmagic guards, spell resistance, spell absorption and shattermantle, and perhaps other similar effects. Maybe also add ‘dispel resistance.’ The eldritch elemental type might include levels of same elemental absorption if a shield is equipped, for example.

They also ought to gain inherent resistances to enemy defensive spells, such as True Seeing. Granted, they can just cast the spell, but spells can be dispelled.

[Alcides]

Core 1: Eldritch Strike: Melee Cleave Attack. +1[w]. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes.(Activation Cost: 0 SP Cooldown: 11 seconds)
You gain proficiency with Simple Weapons
Every Core Ability in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you +10 Max HP
Every Core Ability beyond Core 1 in the Eldritch Knight tree adds 1 to the Force Damage per character level to Eldritch Strike and Eldritch Tempest.
Every Core Ability beyond Core 1 reduces the cooldown of Eldritch Strike by 1 second.

Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the 3 times enhancement bonus of your equipped shield plus your character level. This is doubled at epic level.

Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range. You cannot enable the Enlarge Metamagic while this is active. You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage. The penalties of Tenser's Transformation are reduced by half.

Improved Knight's Transformation: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with Melee Weapons. Tenser's transformation no longer has any penalties.

Eldritch Tempest: Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +5[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 1 second. (Activation Cost: 50/40/30 Spell points. Cooldown: 24/18/12 seconds) If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. (now 1AP per rank)

[Steelstar]

They are already saying no with out event testing it, so if we never see it in gameplay have you really fixed it?

More important is the feedback from people who have played it on Lamannia so far, which has been generally positive. To (once again) be mildly blunt, theorycrafting without playing provides far less useful feedback, as it's often based on assumptions and guesswork that aren't accurate.

Which makes sense; we've been playing with this tree for a month or two internally, and people are now seeing it for the first time and starting to grasp what's possible with it. We know what build types work and don't within this version of the tree already. I've built 13 different builds using this tree and have run them all through actual content. There'll (of course) be builds using it that we didn't expect in the end, which is great, but those don't tend to emerge until 2-3 weeks after a new tree hits Live and people start really working with it.

When we hear several people say "I haven't played it, but this ability/tree seems really weak" vs. a few say "I've played this on Lamannia and it feels fine", we're more likely to lean on the latter, because it's based on actual play.

Also, as we've said before - How often a build gets played has no bearing on how powerful (let alone how valid/good) a build is. There are plenty of decently powerful builds that aren't played that often. Like Beacon of Hope and Renegade Mastermaker, this tree has a non-typical playstyle. It won't be for everyone, but we're hoping that it'll be fun and able to hold up in content for those who want to play a hybrid melee/caster.

[Steelstar]

just to add to other points:
I don’t understand the lore behind stacking incorp, let alone why you keep giving out deflect arrows & quickdraw


The stacking incorporeality is essentially you using your arcane magic to deflect attacks.

Deflect Arrows was added to help reduce damage from ranged sources, as it is one of the things this build had the most trouble defending against in playtesting.

Quick Draw reduces the time between casting and returning to your weapon attack chain.

[HuneyMunster]

A lot of people are selling Sorc short in comparisons. Sorcs can break immunity, get more spell power potential, more caster levels, and shorter cooldowns. They won't do the same melee damage but they make up for it in casting power.


To break immunity you need Savant form for it to apply to all targets or T5 Savant for Awaken Elemental Weakness with a 20 second cooldown, slow casting time that is reduced to touch range. If your target moves when using Awaken Elemental Weakness it will go on cooldown for 20 and the target will still be immune to for main spell damage. Taking either of these loses either better T5 enhancements, Core 6 Eldritch Blade or martial class splashes.

If you splash more than 1 class you will lose either Hold Monster Mass or Wail. A wizard could take 2 to 3 levels of other classes with far less drawbacks. A Sorcerer would mostly probably require to be PDK and use a lesser +1 to still be able to break immunities. Taking 3 levels of Bard for Smooth Flourishes from Swashbuckler will lose your level 9 spells. Even Wizard would make a better 3 Bard splash by taking Two Steps Ahead for Int to damage and still retain 2 Mass Hold and Wail. For Sorcerer Favored Soul seems the obvious choice for Divine Presence.

I would think at a latter date Sorcerer might work better if or when a Universal tree is introduced for Charisma for damage. Maybe Tiefling could be the answer when Sharn is released as it seems the iconic will either be Bard or Sorcerer.

[Duhboy]

It was our initial impression as well that Wizard was going to mercilessly outclass Sorcerer in Eldritch Knight. In playtesting, they end up playing somewhat differently but ultimately come out to about the same DPS depending on how you build. It's closer than one would think, even after accounting for things like Harper.

Care to show us number figures?

Also Steelstar how come no Int/Cha to damage in the tree?

Noticed the 1st core "Every point spend in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you +0.5 Universal Spell Power." was removed. Will this be added back in or no?

I personally don't see this tree being very viable in reaper let alone in high end reaper.

A wizard EK doesn't gel well with hardly any epic destiny compared to a sorc.

Plus side atleast this tree isn't COMPLETE garbage anymore but still bad

[HuneyMunster]

More important is the feedback from people who have played it on Lamannia so far, which has been generally positive. To (once again) be mildly blunt, theorycrafting without playing provides far less useful feedback, as it's often based on assumptions and guesswork that aren't accurate.


Unfortunately character copy doesn't seem to be working to be able to test on my Sorcerer so I can only theorycraft at the moment. Will it be available for preview 2?

And off topic could we buy stacks of Thread of Fate at larger stacks than of 100 as it cost 5000 to get the cosmetics. This means it require purchasing 200 stacks of 100 to get all cosmetics on lamannia.

[liston33]

Any idea when character copy will be available? Testing first life characters does not show the true nature of the beast..lol

[Doomflayer]

The real question is as Sev and Tor put it (if we never see it in gameplay that's something we want to fix.)

Will the elitist want EK in their mid reapers r5-7 party?

Will EK be welcome in r1-3 raids?

They are already saying no with out event testing it, so if we never see it in gameplay have you really fixed it?
I have no problem getting in r1 -r3 raids or r5+ groups as a current EK player. My gear is exceptional and greater ruin adds good DPS. On top of that I can solo low reaper, so how does an improvement in EK hurt current EK player's again?

[Lynnabel]

Unfortunately character copy doesn't seem to be working to be able to test on my Sorcerer so I can only theorycraft at the moment. Will it be available for preview 2?

And off topic could we buy stacks of Thread of Fate at larger stacks than of 100 as it cost 5000 to get the cosmetics. This means it require purchasing 200 stacks of 100 to get all cosmetics on lamannia.

The cosmetics you are trying to buy are not hooked up on lamannia. The one that does have visuals is purchasable from the dojo main loot NPC to avoid the scenario you are describing.

[Mindos]

Quick Draw reduces the time between casting and returning to your weapon attack chain.

Does Quick Draw still do what we all think it does? Wasn't there an added 1 second delay put in place recently?

[Dragavon]

Quick Draw reduces the time between casting and returning to your weapon attack chain.

the recent change you guys made adding a 1s cooldown to everything has made quick draw useless.

[guzzlr]

To be a little blunt: If you're in Tier 5 of this tree, and aren't casting one offensive spell at least once every 12 seconds you're probably not playing this tree effectively.

Fair enough. I hope there are enough spell points to keep this going. Sounds like an impressive way to burn through them very fast. I am looking forward to trying it out!

[Silverleafeon]

Thank you for leaving my Pally 15 / Fighter 4 / Wizard 1 (and other players Fighter 14 / Pally 5 / Wizard 1, ect…) tank builds alone even though splashing 1 class level & 4 enhancement points to gain +10% AC is rather low hanging fruit (but tank builds still could use the love in keeping thus).

The Fighter 12 / Pally 5 / Wizard 3+ is definitely looking more attractive now.

[Xgya]

Fair enough. I hope there are enough spell points to keep this going. Sounds like an impressive way to burn through them very fast. I am looking forward to trying it out!

So, at level 12, my character has about 1600 mana.
I get to refresh my resources at least once every 10 minutes, often a lot more.
1 spell every 12 seconds, assuming you're in combat for the whole 10 minutes, would be 50 spells, which means I have 32 mana per spell to spend strictly to keep the buff up. That's slightly behind being able to cast a Quickened Chain Lightning (the highest level attack spell I should have access to at this level) every time I need to, but above a Quickened Cone of Cold. Mentioning Quickened spells because I'd be meleeing, and I ain't got no time to be standing still wiggling fingers.
Alternatively, this is a Quickened Web every time I reach melee, which makes a lot more sense since this is supposed to be a squishy burst melee, not a tanky frontline, so making sure the enemies can't properly counter makes a lot of sense. The other Quickened spell of choice is of course the eternally-useful Displacement (which I'd probably alternate between Web and this one to keep the buff up, really)

The above is assuming there aren't points at which I'm opening doors or chests, running, rezzing other party members or other non-combat-oriented stuff.
Of course, it also ignores the mana spent on buffs.

[Elfishski]

Deflect Arrows was added to help reduce damage from ranged sources, as it is one of the things this build had the most trouble defending against in playtesting.

My initial thoughts overall are positive, though I haven't looked in depth.

When it comes to deflect arrows - I want to echo that this has been in every single new tree for quite a while and maybe it's something that could be skipped for EK? How about giving that new deflect missiles chance (at a low number) that applies to stuff like magic missiles as well as ranged attacks? A bit thematic and more importantly a bit more unique than seeing deflect arrows yet again.

It's okay for a class to have a weakness against some specific enemies that they have to work around (and wizards/sorcs certainly have the tools to do so with a variety of spells even if they're mostly focused on stabbing with EK).

[PsychoBlonde]

The main problem that I see with this tree is that it attempts to combine boosts to DAMAGE casting with boosts to melee combat. That's NOT how hybrid toons work in this game. Hybrid toons pick ONE damage source and combine that with DC casting, not damage casting.

If you REALLY want to make this tree *good*, remove all the boosts to SPELLPOWER and replace them with saving throw debuffs or DC increases, because that's how you're going to play an Eldritch Knight. Crowd control it and whack it.

[Enoach]

My initial thoughts overall are positive, though I haven't looked in depth.

When it comes to deflect arrows - I want to echo that this has been in every single new tree for quite a while and maybe it's something that could be skipped for EK? How about giving that new deflect missiles chance (at a low number) that applies to stuff like magic missiles as well as ranged attacks? A bit thematic and more importantly a bit more unique than seeing deflect arrows yet again.

It's okay for a class to have a weakness against some specific enemies that they have to work around (and wizards/sorcs certainly have the tools to do so with a variety of spells even if they're mostly focused on stabbing with EK).

I agree with you. One of the powers of the Arcane Caster is effects like Displacement (Concealment) which handles any physical attack. This is not innate to most melee types short of Elf Dragonmark of Shadow.

However, EK already has the Improved Shield which deals with the magic missile issue as well as their own shield spells. So maybe something that improves that concealment if the point is to reduce physical damage through avoidance, or replace it with some magical resistance like MRR or even Spell Resistance.

[LurkingVeteran]

...

Quick Draw reduces the time between casting and returning to your weapon attack chain.

Move Quickdraw up in the tree as high as possible imo (another step at least). I was experimenting before this pass, and interleaving weapon attacks and spells (which this tree intends) without Quickdraw feels very clunky.

Elemental proc damage also needs to be normalized over THF, TWF and SWF so we don't get locked into TWF just to get the most out of it. Either that or make it proc on glancing blows, I haven't tested if this works in-game.

Finally, it's easy to do the math and conclude that the elemental proc will be a pretty small part at L30. On the other hand you gave them regular crit profile, so my guess is this will play more like a regular melee end game, which is a bit of a shame. I think it would have been cool if they instead got some boost on their procs, like elemental crit, but I guess due to immunities the physical crit is more useful in practice.

[Zretch]

Hello Steelstar.

Can Spellsword extra damage crit? if so, is it on a melee crit? Is it on an independent crit roll based on melee crit range? Is it on an independent roll based on spell crit percent?

Based on the description, I assume that Spellsword won't proc on a glancing blow, either from your primary target (didn't miss but didn't fully hit), or from 2 handed glancing blows. Is this correct?

Do SLAs and spells from Epic Destinies (like Energy Burst out of Draconic) count as a cast towards the stacking bonuses for mixing casting with melee?

Thanks!

[Steelstar]

Hello Steelstar.

Can Spellsword extra damage crit? if so, is it on a melee crit? Is it on an independent crit roll based on melee crit range? Is it on an independent roll based on spell crit percent?

Based on the description, I assume that Spellsword won't proc on a glancing blow, either from your primary target (didn't miss but didn't fully hit), or from 2 handed glancing blows. Is this correct?

Do SLAs and spells from Epic Destinies (like Energy Burst out of Draconic) count as a cast towards the stacking bonuses for mixing casting with melee?

Thanks!

Spellsword doesn't crit; it acts like any other on-hit proc.

Spellsword does proc on Glancing Blows.

SLAs do count toward casting for those bonuses.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Spellsword does proc on Glancing Blows.


Thank you for supporting two hander playstyles

[guzzlr]

So, at level 12, my character has about 1600 mana.
I get to refresh my resources at least once every 10 minutes, often a lot more.
1 spell every 12 seconds, assuming you're in combat for the whole 10 minutes, would be 50 spells, which means I have 32 mana per spell to spend strictly to keep the buff up. That's slightly behind being able to cast a Quickened Chain Lightning (the highest level attack spell I should have access to at this level) every time I need to, but above a Quickened Cone of Cold. Mentioning Quickened spells because I'd be meleeing, and I ain't got no time to be standing still wiggling fingers.
Alternatively, this is a Quickened Web every time I reach melee, which makes a lot more sense since this is supposed to be a squishy burst melee, not a tanky frontline, so making sure the enemies can't properly counter makes a lot of sense. The other Quickened spell of choice is of course the eternally-useful Displacement (which I'd probably alternate between Web and this one to keep the buff up, really)

The above is assuming there aren't points at which I'm opening doors or chests, running, rezzing other party members or other non-combat-oriented stuff.
Of course, it also ignores the mana spent on buffs.

Thanks for the break down. 50 spells seems like a fine number every 10 minutes. Right now I don't stop at every shrine, as I tend to plow through pretty quickly. That being said, I don't have a problem shrining more often... it just slows the group down (which likely means people won't wait for you and you aren't involved at all).

[Malekithe]

Does the new spellsword damage apply to the melee cleave portion of eldritch strike and eldritch tempest? Also for the one sec tempest knocks enemies prone do they count as helpless for the +50%?

Thank you so much for the +to hit for charisma and the implement bonus(LGS WooT), altogether awesome new tree. If this is any indicator I've got high hopes for archmage and pale master =)

[Blase]

Tested spellsword.

Level 20, 320 acid spellpower.

Landing 80-100ish damage.

Unless its a ranged weapon, then 12-25ish, which leads me to believe its not scaling.

Working as intended?

[Tuxedoman96]

A lot of people are selling Sorc short in comparisons. Sorcs can break immunity, get more spell power potential, more caster levels, and shorter cooldowns. They won't do the same melee damage but they make up for it in casting power.

Stat to damage is made up for with the potential of spellsword. Do some math on it. Also, AA doesn't get stat to hit or damage either and no one complains about it.

We are only seeing the EK changes. When the other caster trees get done the best builds will change. This also means you may want capstones and tier V's in different trees. That doesn't leave room for intelligence to damage.

Can you elaborate on this part?

[Zretch]

Spellsword doesn't crit; it acts like any other on-hit proc.

Spellsword does proc on Glancing Blows.

SLAs do count toward casting for those bonuses.

Thank you sir!

Has there been any consideration towards just having the 6th core be a 30 second triggered buff with a 1 minute cooldown? The tree seems a bit "fidgety" with needing to do something every 12 seconds already to keep stacks from dropping off. I can't help but think that a build that has you cleaving in the air as you run to your next encounter just to try and build stacks isn't what you're going for.

[Claver]

Some time ago I ran a S&B 15 Warlock/ 5 Wizard as a Tier 5 Eldritch Knight to experiment with Tensers Transformation as well as Eldritch Tempest

I tried to make a similar build to test EK on lamannia...this time splashing sorcerer instead of wizard

CONCLUSION: Improvements to eldritch strike and spell sword are a big help but the loss of the eldritch aura while in Knight's Transformation hurts. In this respect, the older version of EK with Tensors was better. If I were to make this build again today, I could see myself spending 20 AP or so in the EK tree but I would not make it my focus at Tier 5


Test Results:

DISCLAIMER: I think it is valuable to report both what is working as expected and what might not be intended

Knights Transformation: Being in the Knights Transformation stance cancels out Eldritch Aura. If this works the same way as Epic Defensive Fighting, then fine, but please be sure to mention that detail in the enhancement description.

Forces Point: Each tick of Eldritch Aura triggered an effect. Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast triggered Forces Point. Every damaging spell I tested triggered Forces Point; however, buff spells like Rage and Night Shield and buff SLAs like Displacement did not trigger Forces Point.

EDIT: If you mouse over Forces Point on the enhancement tree it indicates it triggers when you cast an OFFENSIVE Spell....I missed this at first

Flaming Spellsword: The damage is supposed to scale with Fire Spell power. I couldn't see any indication this was happening when I took spell power items off.

Shield Striking: The 15% shield bashing seems to be working. The light damage from Spiritual Restitution from Enlightened Spirit seemed to apply to the shield bashes

Shield Striking: The temporary hitpoints based on shield enhancement bonus seem to be working. I got even more hit points via Shield Prowess while in Unyielding Sentinel destiny. The temporary hitpoints from the shield seem to stack with Brilliance from Enlightened Spirit

Please keep Shield Striking in the final build...I like both abilities, particularly the temporary hitpoints based on the enchantment bonus of the shield

[LevelJ]

Can you elaborate on this part?

I can. Around the time of the Druid update the Devs added two ways to "break" elemental immunities in each Savant tree. The first one is actively applied when you use the T5 Awaken Elemental Weakness ability, and will remove immunity to that respective element from the enemy it is cast on (eg, Using Awaken Elemental Weakness: Fire on a devil to hit them with fire).

The second means to remove immunities is passively through the elemental form found in the capstone of the savant trees. When you use a spell matching the elemental form you have active, anything it hits that is immune will immediately lose that immunity, so that successive spells of that element will work on that enemy.

The caveat of these is that in both cases you will likely have to invest more in the savant tree of the element you want than the Eldritch Knight tree. Still, it's really helpful and means you can monotype specialize with a sorcerer now.



-Jayron

[SocratesBastardSon]

First, thank you for taking this on. The spellsword is a concept that is dear to the hearts of many RPG gamers, and it seemed kind of sad that it was such a poor choice in DDO. I have to say this looks like a significant improvement. On the other hand, I can see the devs exercised an abundance of caution. Without having play tested it, it appears to be pretty middling in power relative to some of the other choices out there.

Second, in this post I'll to bring up conceptual issues because, for me at least, enhancements should be about creating a unique, coherent play style. The class provides the basics, the enhancements create a specialized style.

In response to some complaints I read, here's some that I support leaving as is.


Heavy armor never seemed to me to be the end goal of a spellsword; medium armor seems more appropriate. Isn't that the part of the idea behind the creation of mithril armor? It also leaves open a spot for "heavy" armors that are rated as medium for named magic items.
Quick Draw seems to be exactly the kind of feat this class should have, even if it is not as effective a feat any longer.


Okay, now for my votes in support of what others have said, with a few modifications.



I'll enthusiastically reiterate the call for a INT/CHA to damage enhancement. Lacking that ability makes an already a challenging hybrid harder to make work. Perhaps make it part of the Knight's Transformation toggle?
How about balancing the range = 0 debuff with Quicken or reduced Quicken cost. I agree with a previous poster that this build cries for the Quicken feat.
Not sure about Deflect Arrows. Conceptually it doesn't make sense. I understand the point that it is a defensive need, but everyone has weaknesses. Rangers and monks should have this, but spellswords? On the other hand I recall a spell from PnP D&D, Wall of Wind? that would reduce arrow accuracy. And of course we have AOE spells that do the same, like Obscuring Mist, so maybe it's just the wording that's throwing me.
I love the Tenser's suggestion: reduced penalties for Tenser's while Knight's Transformation is active. If you can't add it to Knight's Trans, maybe add a third selector to Knight's Magic: Tenser's SLA or an Improved Tenser's without the penalties. This gives more reason to go to T5, which frankly, I'm not finding particularly attractive at this point.


Now for suggestions that aren't repeats (I think). Some of them have been discussed on the forum in the past.


I've already seconded Quicken, but what of Combat Casting? That should be an autogrant it seems to me, probably at Core 1. I mean, really, EK should have help with Concentration in combat. Really.
Mystic Wards should match Improved Shield in performance; rather than just MRR boost, an additional +1/2/3 Spell Saves or even Spell Resistance would be appropriate.
Make Force's Point a 1/2/3 AP enhancement? You get 3/5/10 stacks, with a 10/12/15 second timer for how long each stack lasts?


Here's some more suggestions that have cropped up in other contexts, which I haven't come up with a good suggestion on where they should go. But they would either be high on the awesomeness quotient, or just seem like they belong here. These include some abilities from other enhancement trees:


Replace Deflect Arrows with a lesser Feedback effect like Occult Slayer? Would Arcane Encumbrance be too much?
Spell Save, Spell Resistance and MRR debuffs. These make more sense than Deflect Arrows too.
A melee weapon equivalent to Moonbow, or at least something that provides temp spell points. I'm almost tempted to say this makes more sense than Radiant Forcefield. Almost. Forcefield + Arcane Barrier sounds awfully nice.


Finally, I don't know if this is even possible, but converting touch attacks to one-shot (or short duration?) weapon imbues. I suppose Shocking Grasp is already implied by current imbues, but what about spells like Ghoul Touch or Chill Touch? Make that something an EK casts using his or her weapon, not the hand. That way EKs get weapon damage as well as a spell imbues.

And in case you missed it: Concentration! Heck, make it something like +4 to Concentration for each Core you possess. Or go nuts and make it INT/CHA to Concentration instead of just CON to concentration.

[Pilgrim1]

You should add temp. Spell points on crit like the druid wolf tree has. Yhis more than anything will encentivise melee.

For sorcers in particular they will face the horid issue of limited feets when building a gish build. Maybe add some combat style feets into the cores? A multi-selecter for twf/swf/thf at lvls 3/6/12 would be reallly cool.

[Tuxedoman96]

Question: is the PRR bonus for Improved Shield still tied to CL rather than actual duration of the spell? For some background, I've noticed that if I have a character that has 4 or less lvls of Sorc/Wiz, the PRR portion of the SLA disappears before the actual shield effect does (contradicting the description). It's acting according to the lvls of Sorc or Wiz. Additionally, this can be extended (so for a 4 Wiz multiclass, the shield spell would last 10 mins and the PRR would last 8). Any guidance on this would be much appreciated, and if it is working as intended, I'd suggest putting that in the description. I have already placed a bug report about the matter.

[Tuxedoman96]

I can. Around the time of the Druid update the Devs added two ways to "break" elemental immunities in each Savant tree. The first one is actively applied when you use the T5 Awaken Elemental Weakness ability, and will remove immunity to that respective element from the enemy it is cast on (eg, Using Awaken Elemental Weakness: Fire on a devil to hit them with fire).

The second means to remove immunities is passively through the elemental form found in the capstone of the savant trees. When you use a spell matching the elemental form you have active, anything it hits that is immune will immediately lose that immunity, so that successive spells of that element will work on that enemy.

The caveat of these is that in both cases you will likely have to invest more in the savant tree of the element you want than the Eldritch Knight tree. Still, it's really helpful and means you can monotype specialize with a sorcerer now.



-Jayron

Gotcha.

[Sormiron]

What I´ve seen this far.

You can use elemental arrows and spellsword as a bow user but the spellsword elemental damage does not scale with spellpower while using a bow.

The Spellsword elemental damage is about 250ish per hit with 800 spellpower using a melee weapon.

Eldritch Powers extra force damage dice does not scale with force spellpower. I only saw like 6-9 damage or so. I am not sure about the elemental dice.

no charisma to damage is a huge bummer unfortunetly.

I dont see enough reason to use a shield with +15% bash chance.

Eldritch strikes force damage did mb 200ish extra damage with 500-550 force spellpower.

Eldritch Tempest did 500ish extra force damage and unfortunetly I see it as a bit weak for a t5. Long cd and high spellcost. so short cc that it hardly matters.

this far I think eldritch knight is very promising with the spell sword damage even if it is something that ppl will not go to far up in atm. just to get a bit of extra damage from spellsword is what I´d use it for atm. anything above the 2nd core, maybe 3rd for quickdraw, is not that baiting me in unfortunetly.

Maybe increase the elemental damage dice or add force damage dice in the later cores.
Charisma to damage might be a must higher up in the tree unless there is much more spelldamage to get out I think.

[Sormiron]

Oh and I got to make a small request. Please make inferno shots inferno in the arcane archer tree scale with fire spellpower.

[Tlorrd]

With regards to Cha to hit and damage ...

You should kinda do what you did with Warsoul/Priest ....

Since war priest could take War domain and get holy sword, you gave Warsoul +1 to crit in core 5 and +1 to crit multiplier in Tier 5

I suggest you make the same concession ... Core 5 give Cha to hit and Tier 5 give Cha to dmg for Sorcs ... especially as they are much more feat starved than Wiz.

Wiz has more feats and can use Harper for Int to hit and dmg and KTA to boot.

[Claver]

I did some testing with a 14 cleric protection domain/ 6 eldritch knight

DISCLAIMER: I'm reporting both what works as expected and what may be unintended

Epic Defensive Fighting: Seems to be working properly with Knights Transformation as far as Hit Point increase is concerned

Forces Edge/ Forces Point: This triggers on blindness, bestow curse, flame strike, poison, destruction, finger of death, orders wrath, holy smite, comet fall and contagion

Forces Edge/ Forces Point: DOES NOT work with Harm, mass inflict light wounds, mass inflict moderate wounds

Radiant Force Field: The tier 5 enhancement for Eldritch Knight is on a different timer than the radiant force field granted by the cleric protection domain...this is a good thing

Improved Knights Transformation: The +1 critical multiplier seemed work correctly on a Thunderforged Bastard Sword

[Propane]

[B]
How does the knockdown in Eldritch Tempest work?
It knocks down anything that isn't immune to Trip for one second. There is no saving throw. (It does not affect Bosses, who are normally immune to Trip).

Thoughts on 1 second + 1/3 Sec per Eldritch Knight core? (1.33 min to 3 second total)

[Shall]

You should add temp. Spell points on crit like the druid wolf tree has. Yhis more than anything will encentivise melee.

For sorcers in particular they will face the horid issue of limited feets when building a gish build. Maybe add some combat style feets into the cores? A multi-selecter for twf/swf/thf at lvls 3/6/12 would be reallly cool.

I like this idea about the style feats since aside from the lack of feats sorcerers get there is the fact that with both wizards and sorcerers having the lowest BAB neither can qualify for taking combat style feats until much later than other melees, with the greater style feat not available until epic levels if I recall correctly. It's not like it would be of much value just for a splash since getting a full style line would mean taking a majority of levels in one of the arcane classes and taking a couple levels just to get the first or maybe second feat of a style line free wouldn't work too well due to it not counting as the prerequisite for taking the improved and greater style feats as actual feats. I suppose it could be restricted to only on while knights transformation is enabled.

[Kilgrave]

FAQ:

What's the deal with Knight's Transformation?
You'll probably notice that the cast range restrictions while Knight's Transformation is active are very similar to Epic Defensive Fighting. With the tree's focus on wading into melee range for combat, this is a tree where offensive spellcasting range can afford to be close-quarters; for that tradeoff, the Eldritch Knight gets a big boost to spellcasting AND weapon combat. If you have both this and Epic Defensive Fighting toggled on in the Epic levels, you do not suffer a further penalty to casting range, so they synergize well.

Why did you drop Permanent Tenser's out of this tree?
As we evaluated the existing tree's strengths and weaknesses, it occurred to us that if we wanted the role of Eldritch Knights to be "Character that excels at both Spells and Weapons", then Tenser's was counterproductive to that, as it increased your spell cooldowns dramatically. We put together Knight's Transformation to replace it.

What does 5% Stacking Incorporeality mean (from the 5th Core)?
This is incorporeality, causing a chance to ignore damage similar to the Ghostly item effect. There's an identical bonus in the Tempest Cores.

What does 10% Melee Damage mean (from the 6th Core)?
This is an overall 10% scale-up to damage from Melee Attacks. We removed a lot of this from the game when Melee and Ranged Power were added, but given that you can't get this without 20 Wizard or Sorcerer levels, we felt the powerful scaling was worth it.

Does anything in here work with Ranged Weapons?
If it doesn't say specifically "Melee", assume it also works on Ranged weapons.

How many Spellsword Dice can I get?
A pure 20 Wizard or Sorcerer that took all the Cores has 7d6 stable Spellsword dice, and turns it up to 11d6 when Eldritch Power is active (which you can keep up 50% of the time if you use Eldritch Blade any time it's off cooldown). Those dice scale at the normal rate with Spell Power.

How does the knockdown in Eldritch Tempest work?
It knocks down anything that isn't immune to Trip for one second. There is no saving throw. (It does not affect Bosses, who are normally immune to Trip).

Ok I reserved judgement till I had a chance to test it, I couldn't get character copy to work so testing was done on a first lifer 20Wiz, 10Leg Dread, with 3 twists sense weakness, grim per, purge the wick, THF with Echo of Blackrazor 8 filigree 5prowess, 3shadow, silent and mists sets with close to max deadly and seeker gear wise.
Spell power from 300-450, leaving some stuff out because i forgot the numbers will do more testing if I can and report back.

First off I really enjoyed the flavor sweet animation with the different procs, its a fun concept.
But before long I was running out of mana to keep your dps up you have to keep your foot to the floor, I didn't test dc casting but nuker/EK runs out of gas quick!

I did 2 kinds of tests boss kolbold and slavers LE solo, best time i could get and I'm terrible at speed test was 118, as a possible measuring stick there was a Wolf-clr-ftr also testing and he or she was hitting 40-45 not sure this comparison matters because I'm so poor at the speed testing.

Soloing in slavers I found out quick the defense for EK is lacking died 4 times in first fight, eating free Lam-cakes YUM wish I had Lamcakes all the time lol.

EK could really benefit from more dps or survivability.

[Caarb]

Melee/Caster hybrids need some form of Temp SPs or their mana burn rate is not sustainable on longer fights.

[Claver]

Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range. You cannot enable the Enlarge Metamagic while this is active. You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage. Your Base Attack Bonus equals your Character Level.


Knights Transformation affects all spells and SLAs (*) that I have tested - not just those affected by metamagics. As the enhancement description is written, it could be confused to mean that if I don't have any metamagics toggled on a particular spell, I can cast that spell at normal range. Please consider changing the description to read "While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs have their range reduced to touch range" for ease of understanding

(*) The new spell Acid Well did not have its range reduced while the Knight's Transformation toggle was active. There was no observed change in casting range for Acid Well when toggling back and forth into and out of Knight's Transformation


FAQ:

What's the deal with Knight's Transformation?
You'll probably notice that the cast range restrictions while Knight's Transformation is active are very similar to Epic Defensive Fighting. With the tree's focus on wading into melee range for combat, this is a tree where offensive spellcasting range can afford to be close-quarters; for that tradeoff, the Eldritch Knight gets a big boost to spell casting AND weapon combat. If you have both this and Epic Defensive Fighting toggled on in the Epic levels, you do not suffer a further penalty to casting range, so they synergize well.
[B]


Having played around a bit with Knight's Transformation on Lammania I can say I don't think +30 spell power and improved BAB and +3% spell crit is a big enough bonus to offset the penalty of point blank range.

There is value in being able to cast CC from a distance before you can be hit and it helps to soften up the opponent with ranged spells as you close in to melee range or kite. This is too much to give up for just +30 spell power and if I need help hitting I just slot an accuracy item

I also like being able to scroll raise dead across the room in the heat of battle. At the moment, the knights transformation toggle is fairly quick. Theoretically you could constantly toggle it back and forth between casting spells at a distance and taking a swing or two. But that's just too much for me to manage in a tough fight where people are dying. I don't like too much frenetic button mashing and would skip Knights Transformation as a whole to avoid toggling back and forth to get a raise off.

Overall, I like the new Eldritch Knight Tree but if I wanted a +1 competence bonus with melee weapon critical multipliers I am more likely to splash 6 FTR (Kensei - Strike with no thought) to avoid the point blank penalty of Knight's Transformation. And if I forgo Knights Transformation it locks me out of the Tier 5 abilities of Improved Knights Transformation/Knights Magic then why even invest in Tier 5 of EK at all.

Having said this, I still like the concept of a point blank spell caster...and I have experience playing a point blank melee caster (Draconic Body of the Sun Fire Elemental Druid in Epic Defensive Fighting). Point blank blasters have their place in the right build...I just don't think the +30 spell power is enough of a boost to justify the tradeoff in the Eldritch Knight tree

My suggestion would be to increase the spell power of Knights Transformation/ Improved Transformation to make point blank casting worth the tradeoffs .

Change Knights Transformation to offer +40 spell power instead of +30

Change Improved Knights Transformation to offer +40 spell power in addition to the +1 critical multiplier with weapons

That's a net increase of +50 spell power at Tier 5 vs the OP while in touch range stance. By way of comparison, thats 33% power offered by the metamagic maximize feat. That is enough of a boost to make me seriously consider point blank builds for various multiclass options as well as pure sorcerers and wizards. And it would put Tier 5 of EK on even footing with competing Tier 5 choices from other enhancement trees

[cru121]

Knight Transformation should probably give Melee Power.

Eldritch Tempest is weak and needs either stronger effects or become cheaper and on shorter cooldown.

[Steelstar]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

[cru121]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

then maybe leave monsters debuffed once they stand up (slowed, crippled, cursed, dazed, something, vulnerable to EK's spellsword element) or add some temporary buff (gain +20 mp for 10 seconds / make spellsword damage aoe for 10 seconds / gain 3d6 spellsword damage for 10 seconds, your next spell cast is at +5 DC to resist...)

EDIT: could also be different effect depending on which Spellsword toggle is active, smells like work though

[guzzlr]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

1-second no save is better than a longer knockdown in my opinion. Unless of course, you are building for tactics anyway. I love stunning blow (aside form the way too long cooldown), and work it in on every melee I do, but I'm not sure I could do that on a Knight. That being said, 1 second barely stops the baddies. Even 2 second would make it feel more like you managed to get an attack interrupted and then the bad guy had to spend a "round" getting back up. I like no save better regardless.

[HastyPudding]

then maybe leave monsters debuffed once they stand up (slowed, crippled, cursed, dazed, something, vulnerable to EK's spellsword element) or add some temporary buff (gain +20 mp for 10 seconds / make spellsword damage aoe for 10 seconds / gain 3d6 spellsword damage for 10 seconds, your next spell cast is at +5 DC to resist...)

EDIT: could also be different effect depending on which Spellsword toggle is active, smells like work though

I like this idea. Electric could add stacks of vulnerability, cold could add reduced movement speed, fire could add a fire dot effect, and acid could reduce fortification.

[Kriogen]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

Make a multiselector:
- melee attack, big damage, little no-save CC(or even no CC)
- PBAoE spell, good CC with save, little damage(or even no damage)

Spell school: whichever already has "knockdown".

[Ballrus]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

The knockdown add helpless or are just an AOE trip?

[Steelstar]

The knockdown add helpless or are just an AOE trip?

AOE Trip. We'll call it out when an effect that wouldn't normally cause helplessness does.

[Ballrus]

AOE Trip. We'll call it out when an effect that wouldn't normally cause helplessness does.

Can add helpless effect? Just like Balanced Attacks from Primal avatar?

[zehnvhex]

Played it a little bit.

---

I agree that quick draw needs to be moved up and I'd like to see something much lower in the tree promoting swapping between spells and melee. As is until level 12 there wasn't really much point so I was just a really crappy fighter with firewalls.

---

"Reduces all spells to touch range" - "Ranged mobs were a problem so we gave it deflect arrow"

>.>

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The KD feels weaker than it is just because of the visual aspect of it. I think 2 seconds would be a good compromise to make it feel good and look good. Or as others have suggested, giving it a lingering effect of 50% slow for an additional 3 seconds?

---

Knight's Transformation was underwhelming. As others have stated giving up something fun (ranged spellcasting) for something not fun (raw stat boosts) is not good gameplay. EDF is very unpopular in the community and using the touch range concept further shows a pretty big disconnect between the devs and players.

Especially when very few other classes get limitations on their big boosts at this tier. I mean kensai for example gets 40 melee power, +1 crit range, +5 dmg. There's no "but they can no longer use AE attacks" or whatever arbitrary drawback.

3% spell crit, 30 sp, 2 evo DC's and 1 crit threat is not worth touch range.

It just doesn't feel fun. I don't want more boosts, I just want this touch range nonsense removed. I'm going to be up in melee range anyways with an EK.

---

I'd love to see something that refreshes the duration of DOTs on mobs when you attack them. I'm not sure if DDO is capable of that, but it'd be a neat thing. Like, "[+1/2/3 W] If the target is currently affected by acid arrow, burning blood, electric surge, niac's biting cold, black dragonbolt or arcane pulse, extend the duration of these spells by 12 seconds. 8 second cooldown, 25 sp cost"

I feel that would be thematically fun and bring the late game DPS especially to a better/healthier spot.

[Malekithe]

just one noobs opinion, but I like a lot of these changes just the way they are, and it appears a lot of dedicated melees have descended on this thread to tear this tree apart just to suit their needs. IE all they want is any way to splash sorc/wiz to get one more +1 crit multiplier or some other min/max bonus. Take knights trans for example, I want +30 spellpower, I want full BAB w/o reduced cooldowns(for the PRR), and I want +3% crit mult(altho +5% would be better, but id prefer not to rock the boat), a sorc can just not quicken ranged spells and get away with it, and PB/self spells can be meta'd no loss. Have you seen how far chain lightning can arc? Even at 0 range it will hit a guy quite far away especially if there are more guys in between.

What does scroll rezzing have to do with being an eldritch knight or a sorcerer or a wizard(I don't mention warlock b/c they are bogus and if knights trans is exclusive with dummy aura, good)? Nothing. Bring a cleric like the game intends you to?

If you run out of gas, you might not have 4000 spellpoints, or might be casting the wrong spells, or might not be generating 3 spellpoints one third of the time, every time you cast. Casting eldritch tempest every time it comes off CD might not be the best idea.

This new tree represents to me everything I tried to be years ago and failed at miserably, a caster that can fight some. If your a fighter who wants to cast some, eldritch knight might not be what your looking for. In other words if your a 100% dedicated melee looking to use this tree to do that better maybe the tree isn't for you, because it is for me.

Can we just let this partial caster pass happen before the exploitative theorycrafting ensues?

[zehnvhex]

I don't know if you know this, but touch range limitation is on live for EDF so we already know how it plays out and it's simply not fun. It makes even less sense in reaper where they promoted "okay everybody heal everybody!" and then they release this and it's, "Okay now stop doing it!"

It doesn't add fun or make the gameplay more compelling.

So adding it to casters now too, or at least wiz/sorc sets a precedent that nobody likes and we'd rather make our voices heard -now- while it's still in testing and they can go back to the drawing board on it. Once something goes live in DDO it is very uncommon for it to get touched again for years.

We'd rather they use their imagination, or poll the community for ideas, on how to make the ability fun and interesting rather than just using a limitation that doesn't really have reason to exist.

[cru121]

I don't know if you know this, but touch range limitation is on live for EDF so we already know how it plays out and it's simply not fun.
Is this a royal we? I like point blank warlocks, artificers, and I would like to play a point blank arcane, if this option was supported in game.

[Burakii]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

I like the way it works if you not willing to make it better please don't change it, if you increased the time with no save that would be great but sounds like you don't want to so please don't make it worse.

[Burakii]

The main problem that I see with this tree is that it attempts to combine boosts to DAMAGE casting with boosts to melee combat. That's NOT how hybrid toons work in this game. Hybrid toons pick ONE damage source and combine that with DC casting, not damage casting.

If you REALLY want to make this tree *good*, remove all the boosts to SPELLPOWER and replace them with saving throw debuffs or DC increases, because that's how you're going to play an Eldritch Knight. Crowd control it and whack it.

I agree.

[Silverleafeon]

I agree that quick draw needs to be moved up and I'd like to see something much lower in the tree promoting swapping between spells and melee. As is until level 12 there wasn't really much point so I was just a really crappy fighter with firewalls.


Quicken and Quick Draw are pretty much needed as soon as possible.


I'd love to see something that refreshes the duration of DOTs on mobs when you attack them. I'm not sure if DDO is capable of that, but it'd be a neat thing. Like, "[+1/2/3 W] If the target is currently affected by acid arrow, burning blood, electric surge, niac's biting cold, black dragonbolt or arcane pulse, extend the duration of these spells by 12 seconds. 8 second cooldown, 25 sp cost"

I feel that would be thematically fun and bring the late game DPS especially to a better/healthier spot.

Wow, wow, wow.+1 quote of the week

[Sho-sa]

What does scroll rezzing have to do with being an eldritch knight or a sorcerer or a wizard(I don't mention warlock b/c they are bogus and if knights trans is exclusive with dummy aura, good)? Nothing. Bring a cleric like the game intends you to?

Can we just let this partial caster pass happen before the exploitative theorycrafting ensues?

Scroll rezzing has to do with being a good teammate. Some years ago before you started playing, quests could simply not be run unless you had a dedicated healer player show up (2-3 for raids). LARGE amounts of time wasted sitting around which quickly added up to hours not playing- which is no one's idea of a good time. The population base has been on a steady decline over the years. Long story short, the Devs listened to us (and observed the loss of subscriptions i.e. two companies sold DDO off) and better party heal mechanics were put into play. NPC clerics are awful and have steadily gotten worse.

What we (long time players) are trying to avoid is DDO becoming a pigeon-hole game where one is stuck into a particular role like so any other MMOs out there. DDO simply does not have the player base to support this and coupled with little to no advertising and a hideous new player learning curve is unlikely to change.

The Nancy Pelosi trap, "We have to pass the bill to see what's in the bill," only works in the fantasy land of Federal Government. There are only a few areas we (long time players) are requesting be jiggled in this tree. For instance we know INT/CHA for hit only is a new player trap and needs to be changed to damage. Plus, it's nothing unlike what plenty of other classes have; if it isn't added now, it never will be. Otherwise we are reporting our feedback from Lamaland on what actually works and needs improvement compared to the rest of the class powerbase. Time has shown again and again Dev playtesting has very little to do with the reality of actually playing DDO. Anything requested here so far is not going to turn EK into a FOtM build by any means.

Is it better as it stands right now? Oh, yes, no argument there. Can it be reasonably tweaked in 2 or 3 areas? Yes, please. Asking to change later is not a reasonable expectation as the Devs have lots of other canaries to juggle and need to make new content to keep the lights on. It would actually be unfair of us to point things out later which we knew now as they won't be fixed (no one's fault, just reality).

[Tlorrd]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

While I agree it has its place ... 1 second is fairly useless on a long cooldown. I ascribe this to the difference between Timebomb and Battle Engineer T5 trip ... both have easily attainable DCs, but the trip lasts so much longer than knockdown to make Timebomb fairly useless from a dps or CC standpoint later into the game.

Also look no further than Quarantine for how you incorporated a spell like feature into melee or ranged combat. Also things like Cometfall cause a knockdown at least too.

At a minimum cause the trip to last 2 or 3 seconds so that the 1 second cooldown/switch to a spell with quick draw feat is viable.

[droid327]

Does anything in here work with Ranged Weapons?
If it doesn't say specifically "Melee", assume it also works on Ranged weapons.


I do wish the tree had a little more support for ranged attacks. I said this on the Lama forums too, but right now there is no build that makes use of non-repeating crossbows. These are the only ranged weapons that a pure Wiz or Sorc can use, though. It would be a nice synergy if a pure arcane crossbow EK was a viable build. It would also be nice for Wiz EK multiclass since the other INT classes both have crossbow support.

I know Repeaters are a big third rail for you when it comes to designing enhancements that support them, but come on...would it really break the game if Eldritch Strike could do a burst of Force damage around the first target hit? If xbows were also considered Implements with the core 3? If Orb Saves also worked with a Runearm (Swash supports all three offhand types)? If Force's Point wasnt melee-only? Maybe even if the spell crit from Force's Edge also procced for Ranged? You still have to go outside the tree for INT or CHA to dmg and cant get the crit from Knight Transformation since that locks you to touch range on spells...

I think a ranged arcane artillery - armored, pumping out bolts, and firing spells - would be a really fun build that wouldn't be too redundant with other builds, nor be too OP.

[Selvera]

Ok; I was fairly hyped about the EK rework until I heard about the spell damage rework which suddenly made all theorycrafting for builds in anything below r3-4 pretty pointless, since sorcerer/savants will do whatever you think you do but better in r2 and below. EK, known as a very weak tree, is the sort of thing that you theorycraft for r2 and below, so playing one suddenly felt pointless.

But anyways; I should review the tree; I love the flavor of an EK and I think this rework has some strong points (ignoring said spell damage pass).

Core 1: I like the changes to this. The loss of USP is made up for in the later cores and the reduced cooldown on eldritch strike makes the “cooldown” on eldritch power slightly less oppressive.

Core 2: The change to this is almost exactly what I proposed in my own EK tree I posted a few days ago. I like all the changes here. The mana drain was removed above/beyond my proposal and I really don’t care, it didn’t matter either way.

Core 3: Not bad; spellcasting implements and quick draw are decent QoL upgrades to the tree.

Core 4: I think this would be much better if deflect arrows were to deflect spells instead of arrows (Umm, adsorb 1 incoming spell every 20 seconds or something?) And the flat resistances should be % adsorb values instead.

Core 5: Yeah, I feel like this should have some more power in it. I recommend putting bonus spellsword damage dice that activate in epic levels here. (At levels 22, 24, 26, 28, 30 gain +1d6 damage with spellsword toggles). Or alternately improve the spellpower-scaling component of spellsword toggles.

Core 6: I like the reduction of cooldown on eldritch power; but I think that having a 50% cooldown with a medium-powered buff seems a bit clunky to use; either it should be a high powered buff with a long cooldown or be almost able to be fully sustainable if the combatant is constantly in combat.

Tier 1:
You have it mostly unchanged, I had it mostly unchanged, we’re in agreement!

Arcane Siphon: I like this. Not as flashy/cool as the new EK attack I proposed; but simple and an actual buff to the hybrid playstyle. Doesn’t scale terribly well though.

Tier 2:
Improved Shield: I still think this SLA should have a caster-level component to the AC it provides. Like 4 +1 per 5 caster levels to AC.
Mystic Wards: Simple but I like it.

Action boost spellpower: Isn’t worth it; +30 spellpower is very small compared with what is achievable even at level 10 (not to mention 30); and tying a small buff like that to an action boost is something I would just skip and use haste boost instead.

Tier 3:
Arcane Barrier: Ok, pretty similar to my proposal; just a little weaker. I do feel like it could get a touch more power.

Eldrich Accuracy: This probably could be in tier 2 without problem; pretty much anyone can get int to hit from harper more easily; and cha has options too. Putting this in tier 3 just delays the build’s powerspikes and makes it less pleasant to play at low levels.

Synergistic Magic: Perhaps if this was combined with action boost spellpower it would be worth taking. I’m not going to spend 6 AP on an action boost that’s maybe barely worth 3 AP. Yes, I know that would make it strictly more powerful then action boosts in pure classes… except that it’s a less used action boost in those classes (haste/doublestrike are better for melees, arcanes typically just skip action boosts altogether). And it’s unlikely a melee class is going to splash 2 or 3 wiz/sorc just to get an action boost that does what they already get; but with a tiny bit more spellpower tacked on.

Critical Mastery: This really needs to be removed. We’ve been over gearing and how many stats a character can build for right? Yes; they’re a melee tree and melee criticals are great, but we’re building for a hybrid, and hybrids have to give up stats. Nothing about critical hits screams magical to me, so critical bonuses are one gear-slot and feat/build slot which is sorely needed to be freed up. Put something cool for a hybrid here instead. Like melee alacrity or allow your spellsword to spell-critical damage instead.

Tier 4:
Knight’s transformation: I’m not entirely against the idea of touch-range combat (although it’s super annoying on melee healers). But please make it fast to turn on/off and/or auto turn on/off epic defensive fighting or something; so that if you need to switch fighting styles to heal/raise someone or something along those lines; you don’t have to spend 6 seconds clicking stances.

30 spellpower, as noted, falls of late game pretty hard. This could easily be 30 + 5 per epic level. Spell critical damage seems rather strange; as this tree doesn’t seem to have very much synergy with spell critical hit chance. It would make more sense if spell critical hit were better integrated into the tree (like instead of regular physical crit chance that seems to be here).

Improved Offhand: Interesting that you combined tier 4 and tier 5 here for shields. But my point from before still stands; the temporary health should scale better into epic levels (2x THP granted at level 20 and 3x at level 30). And it should be based on shield AC bonus the character has instead of enhancement bonus of the shield (to better scale and to synergise with shield spell for those without a shield.) Furthermore; this shouldn’t be a multiselector; it should grant both bonuses when you take it (and apply the one which applies to what the user is currently holding). And finally; I still like the idea of this giving up to 10% offhand strike chance for dual wielders.

Force’s Point: I like this, finally a hybrid skill that feels worth using. If arcane warrior is buffed to a point where it’s not a mistake to take, then these would synergize quite well.

Armored Arcana: Ok. Seems fine like that.

Tier 5:
Improved Knight’s Transformation: NO. This makes it feel samey with every other melee tree and feels like it’s forcing you into optimizing for high crit weapons (looking at you khopesh) and armor piercing/seeker optimization. For a hybrid melee/dps caster hybrid; make this grant spell critical chance and let spellsword spell critical instead.

Knight’s Magic: Ok, seems a bit strange that this is the only DC boosting in the tree and it seems to be mostly a dps-casting tree, not a DC tree. Not bad for what it gives though I guess.

Force’s Edge: Weird, not a fan of these physical crits when I feel like they can/should be condensed into only having to gear for magical crit chance. You could easily make this give melee power on spellcast instead and pigeonhole into physical crit less. Or it could give spell critical damage on spellcast and you’d still want to keep both active constantly.

Radiant Forcefield: Stealing Artificer’s cool thing much? Or is this the new we feel like having a slightly more tanky class thing? It’s not bad, I just feel like it’s being a bit overused in these class passes.

Eldrich Tempest: Yeah, that’s pretty much the buff to this I proposed as well. I feel like it should (also) grant a stack of Eldrich Power however.

Conclusion: I like a lot of the direction here; but I feel like using magical crit instead of physical crit as a core stat for the build would help reduce the amount of feats/gearing for this build, which is far too feat/gear intensive in its current state. On the flip side; allowing spellsword to crit with spellcrit for bonus damage would provide a bunch of extra damage not balanced for yet; so reducing spellsword’s basic damage to 1d4 would compensate or this adequately. (This would help this tree scale into epics as well).

[Tuxedoman96]

I think the shield temps should scale higher, taking into account the type of shield used:

2x shield enhancement bonus for bucklers and light shields (due to the ability to evade in them)
3x shield enhancement bonus for large shield (to compensate for lack of evasion)
4x shield enhancement bonus for tower shields (to compensate for lack of evasion and the huge ASF + armor check penalty + max dex bonus restrictions).

Each of these stacking up to 3 times with one stack gained every 6 secs (as per usual)

I think this would help bolster the survivability a bit and also offer more appropriate trade-offs for the shield type used.

Also, keep in mind that while we can take into account saves, etc., that can be gained from multiclassing, I'm also looking at it from the merit of being a wiz or sorc, neither of which really get great saves, etc., to make the temps as they are now useful enough.

If need be, they can be made to not stack with aura-based temps.

[Ultramaetche1]

After some testing I've noticed that the temporary HP bonus from wearing a shield with the T4 Improved Offhand is VERY lackluster. Would you be able to make it into a more scaling type effect similar to, but not the same as warlock ES Brilliance (T4)?

Instead of using straight INT/CHA for it, you could tone it down to be INT/CHA MOD, and double the value in epics. Still restrict it to require a shield in the offhand to gain those temp HP.

Changing it to that new formula would make it scale better and more powerful than it's current iteration but not so strong to be overpowered. Because seriously... 15 temp HP at lvl 30 every 6 seconds is SUPER underwhelming.

[Niminae]

Also Steelstar how come no Int/Cha to damage in the tree?


A paraphrasing of what was said in the Wednesday livestream is that you could invalidate taking Harper by taking a Wizard splash if EK included both Int to hit and Int to damage. The subtext here is that obviously Harper is a paid tree, while EK is not.



Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

You should consider moving it to T4, because as the tree stands I would not expect many builds to take the tree to T5, and Eldritch Tempest is one of the best things in it. But it isn't good enough to lose a different T5.

[Selvera]

One more thought on proposal for this tree:

Since Pure wizards and sorcs (and even hybrids) have a hard time getting the BAB requirements for a lot of melee feats; it would be cool if stuck in this tree somewhere (I'm thinking Tier 5) they added the benefits of each of the "greater" style feats - which do not stack with the actual feats, but provide all of the same benefits.

So:
You gain 5% additional HP to epic defensive fighting (still capped at 25%)
You gain another 20% offhand strike chance that does not stack with greater two weapon fighting.
You gain +2 melee power, +10% glancing blow damage and +3% chance to proc weapon effects on glancing blows while two handed fighting, that does not stack with greater two handed fighting.
You gain +2 melee power, +10% melee attack speed and +25% of your appropriate stat to damage while single weapon fighting, which does not stack with greater single weapon fighting.

Or if it's easier; just give all 3 feats to the character. They removed the wolf exploits right?

[Tuxedoman96]

After some testing I've noticed that the temporary HP bonus from wearing a shield with the T4 Improved Offhand is VERY lackluster. Would you be able to make it into a more scaling type effect similar to, but not the same as warlock ES Brilliance (T4)?

Instead of using straight INT/CHA for it, you could tone it down to be INT/CHA MOD, and double the value in epics. Still restrict it to require a shield in the offhand to gain those temp HP.

Changing it to that new formula would make it scale better and more powerful than it's current iteration but not so strong to be overpowered. Because seriously... 15 temp HP at lvl 30 every 6 seconds is SUPER underwhelming.

Hmm. Honestly, I kinda like the uniqueness of having it based on the shield enhancement. You know, "arcane enegry suffuses your shield more potently the better the material it's made with", or something like that.

[Tuxedoman96]

One more thought on proposal for this tree:

Since Pure wizards and sorcs (and even hybrids) have a hard time getting the BAB requirements for a lot of melee feats; it would be cool if stuck in this tree somewhere (I'm thinking Tier 5) they added the benefits of each of the "greater" style feats - which do not stack with the actual feats, but provide all of the same benefits.

So:
You gain 5% additional HP to epic defensive fighting (still capped at 25%)
You gain another 20% offhand strike chance that does not stack with greater two weapon fighting.
You gain +2 melee power, +10% glancing blow damage and +3% chance to proc weapon effects on glancing blows while two handed fighting, that does not stack with greater two handed fighting.
You gain +2 melee power, +10% melee attack speed and +25% of your appropriate stat to damage while single weapon fighting, which does not stack with greater single weapon fighting.

Or if it's easier; just give all 3 feats to the character. They removed the wolf exploits right?

Personally I think the combat style bonuses in that suggestions should be toned down by half (so +10% offhand, +5% GB dmg and 2% proc chance, +5 % melee atk speed and +15% appropriate stat dmg). If only because I disagree with the notion that a pure Wiz/Sorc, regardless of tree, should be as adept with a combat style as a class with more martial prowess. I guess being in the knight's transformation could provide the rest of the respective bonuses, looking at the drawback of having most spells reduced to touch range.

[Ballrus]

A noob question.

Metamagics spell bonuses apply to these "This damage scales with xxxx Spell Power"?
And these damage, use spell power crit % on criticals? (If they can crit).

Thanks in advance.

[Kilgrave]

Ok I reserved judgement till I had a chance to test it, I couldn't get character copy to work so testing was done on a first lifer 20Wiz, 10Leg Dread, with 3 twists sense weakness, grim per, purge the wick, THF with Echo of Blackrazor 8 filigree 5prowess, 3shadow, silent and mists sets with close to max deadly and seeker gear wise.
Spell power from 300-450, leaving some stuff out because i forgot the numbers will do more testing if I can and report back.

First off I really enjoyed the flavor sweet animation with the different procs, its a fun concept.
But before long I was running out of mana to keep your dps up you have to keep your foot to the floor, I didn't test dc casting but nuker/EK runs out of gas quick!

I did 2 kinds of tests boss kolbold and slavers LE solo, best time i could get and I'm terrible at speed test was 118, as a possible measuring stick there was a Wolf-clr-ftr also testing and he or she was hitting 40-45 not sure this comparison matters because I'm so poor at the speed testing.

Soloing in slavers I found out quick the defense for EK is lacking died 4 times in first fight, eating free Lam-cakes YUM wish I had Lamcakes all the time lol.

EK could really benefit from more dps or survivability.

Ok so after 2nd round of testing, tweeking and eating a
+8 to all stats tome, adding 3 Martial past lives I was able to bring down my boss kobold time to 112 I know not much of a difference. Didn't get a chance to do any more survivability testing but I did work out a multiclass character.

EK/Kensai 12EK/8Kensai took 4 cores in EK, with tier 5 in Kensai and 3 cores, greatly decreased my boss kobold time from 112 to 84 this is using spells and melee btw while holding down jump key for faster atk speed while watching my SP go bye bye, Str 72 didn't use Int to hit. Double strike 54, MP maxed at 225ish with blitz, prowess and Synergetic Magic.

10LD, with 3 twists sense weakness, grim per, purge the wick, THF with Echo of Blackrazor 8 filigree 5prowess, 3shadow, silent and mists sets with close to max deadly and seeker gear wise.
Spell power from 300-550 increased with tweeks

I found Multiclass EK much better for me but didn't get a chance to try DC EK or Ranged EK.

IMO survivability/DPS is still a huge issue for EK I took all melee DPS and meta magics feats and enhancements with no concern for survivability to try my best to max dps, this would not be practical in live game, and if a took the balanced approach I couldn't cut my way out of a paper bag.

IMO EK has potential but the conservative approach to development is killing it at it's core,

1.Eldritch Strike. Cool down way to long.

2.Improved Knight's Transformation feels incomplete.

3.Eldritch Tempest should not cost any SP or very little EK is already SP starved.

4.Knight Striker feels incomplete.

5.Improved Offhand. Using a shield with EK cuts you DPS down tremendously event with the Best Defense shield.

But that's just my limited game knowledge testing and opinion.

[bluemagexp]

The main problem that I see with this tree is that it attempts to combine boosts to DAMAGE casting with boosts to melee combat. That's NOT how hybrid toons work in this game. Hybrid toons pick ONE damage source and combine that with DC casting, not damage casting.

If you REALLY want to make this tree *good*, remove all the boosts to SPELLPOWER and replace them with saving throw debuffs or DC increases, because that's how you're going to play an Eldritch Knight. Crowd control it and whack it.

I respectfully disagree. Since EK is about having having spell swords boosts to spell power is necessary but it is also necessary to boost melee power which the current incarnation of the ek tree fails to do that is why you made up for that with the harper tree.

Jasonius Guild leader of the Eldritch Knight Riders

[bluemagexp]

As the guild leader of the Eldritch Knight riders I have played many incarnations of the EK tree. It is my favorite type of character to play.

I love the improvements to the spell swords being combined that is awesome KEEP THAT!

Things that the EK needs are

* all armor proficiencies so that pure wizards/sorcs can be in heavy armor (I always run in heavy armor when I play EK).
* int/cha to both hit and dmg for the wizard and sorc versions respectully. I only saw int to hit on the current tree in play testing
* each tier 0 level should both increase spell power and melee power or perhaps ek can use spellpower to magnify the melee dmg instead of melee power
* Please keep the option to gain martial proficiency with all weapons. Im not sure if this was dropped or placed elsewhere.
* the dmg from spell swords needs to increase if it scales with spell power why does it only still do like 6-10 dmg? (I don't fully understand how that works so perhaps you can explain it to me.)
* a simplified way to reduce Arcane Spell failure to zero for all armor proficiencies and all shields.
* I would like to see enhancements that grant the same benefits as swf, improved swf, and greater swf with options to select two handed or two weapon fighting as well) They should not stack with the feats and should not have the bab requirements.
* Im thinking a good tier 5 ability would be to grant sovereign vorpal to all weapons.

[Burakii]

Disappointed with First Look: U41 Eldritch Knight.

1.Spell point pool management is going unaddressed.

2. The melee DPS should be better.

3. Between enhancements, feats, and equipment you can't get what you need to contribute in a meaningful way to your party.

When you make the game about specialized performance any build you present us with must compete with or complement the META. Why except an EK to your party when there is a Meta DPS character monk,tempest, Ect. that may join later, or a DC or Nuker Caster that can specialize in Nuking or DCs?

DDO is to much about specializing, I don't anticipate any EKs in end game groups, but I do anticipate them being excluded from the endgame scene.

[Tlorrd]

Critical Mastery: +1/2/3 to confirm critical hits and critical hit damage (before weapon multipliers)


Since you've stated multiple times that this isn't really a melee only tree but hybrid tree and don't have appropriate stat to hit/dmg through out ...

I'd suggest changing this to a spell critical multiplier like +15% ... or move it to cores for +15% core 5 and +30% total core 6. Thus one's spellsword dps can start to cope with the terrible melee weapon dps currently in play.

[Ghwyn]

As someone who actually plays an EK build, I like what I see, but would like a bit more power from T5. Mine is pure melee with a fighter splash, and was working great pre-racials (on the racial train, almost done) do LE quests and raids. 1s cooldown on tempest is fine, like it was before, but I'd like to see a bit more power, say 10W. Also, I'd like to see more repair amp, as EK works best on WF. Another cleave attack somewhere in the tree would be nice too.



Tier 4:


Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range. You cannot enable the Enlarge Metamagic while this is active. You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage. Your Base Attack Bonus equals your Character Level.



Improved Offhand: Multiselector:

Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the enhancement bonus of your equipped shield.
Orb Saves: +1/2/3 to saving throws and +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power while holding an Orb


Force's Point: When you cast a spell, you gain a stack of Force's Point: Martial (+1 to Hit and Damage). This stacks up to 5 times. When you hit with a melee weapon, you gain a stack of Force's Point: Magical (+2 Universal Spell Power). This stacks up to 10 times. Stacks last for 12 seconds each. You may only gain each effect once per second.
Armored Arcana: You gain proficiency in Medium Armor, and suffer no Arcane Spell Failure from Light or Medium Armor
Ability Score Multiselctor (unchanged) +1 STR/DEX/(INT or CHA)

Tier 5:


Improved Knight's Transformation: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with Melee Weapons.
Knight's Magic: Multiselector:

Knight Striker: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +2 to Evocation DCs, +2 to Conjuration DCs.
Knight Controller: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +2 to Enchantment DCs, +4 Spell Penetration.


Force's Edge: When you cast a spell, you gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range for 12 seconds. When you make a Melee Attack, you gain +5% Spell Critical Chance for 12 seconds.
Radiant Forcefield: Spell Like Ability: Radiant Forcefield (Activation Cost: 30 Spell Points. Cooldown: 3 minutes.)



Eldritch Tempest: Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +5[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 1 second. (Activation Cost: 50/40/30 Spell points. Cooldown: 60/45/30 seconds) If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. (now 1AP per rank)

[Tuxedoman96]

I think that Tenser's was one of the reasons if not the de facto reason for going T5 in EK. Even with the CD increase, I don't foresee too great of a problem due to the sheer amount of spells wizards and sorcs get to work with (and the SLAs that they get that don't suffer the CD penalties from it). As a concession, maybe the Knight's Magic can have the Tenser's Transformation as one of the multi-selectors. That way you could choose between more DPS, more CC, or more melee/tankiness.

[leesun]

I wonder how an eldritch knight/kensei split would work out? would definitely go t5 kensei over eldritch knight. improved offhand shield and maybe knight's transformation for the bab.
with the spell critical in eltritch knight I'm also curious about ek/es split. will have to toy around later.

on an unrelated note, anyone have an idea when the pale master changes will come?

[cru121]

anyone have an idea when the pale master changes will come?
not in u41 said cordo in a live stream

[Coffey]

A noob question.

Metamagics spell bonuses apply to these "This damage scales with xxxx Spell Power"?
And these damage, use spell power crit % on criticals? (If they can crit).

Thanks in advance.

If youre referring to the spellsword imbues, they scale with spell power now, but do not benefit from metamagic spell power increases or spell power crit %. Spellsword imbues work the same as arcane archer imbues in that respect.

[mauriciomaster]

very good! but when are you going to upgrade the palemaster?

[Coffey]

very good! but when are you going to upgrade the palemaster?

I heard that they will soon after Sharn: City of Towers expansion release.

[TDarkchylde]

I like what I'm seeing so far, as someone who likes to run melee casters. However, Sorcs are really getting the short end of the stick here. They don't get the feats to dabble in melee, and without a CHA-to-damage option in the tree, they are that much farther behind Wizards, as well as melee Divines of all stripes, really.

The fact that Harper exists is a HUGE factor in this. A Wizard can go pure, put a few points into Harper for both KTA and INT-to-damage, still be a serviceable caster, as well as a surprisingly competent melee here.

Sorcs would either have to multiclass fairly deeply to leverage their casting stat that way, therefore gimping their casting (both DCs and spell levels/penetration) or gimp themselves both ways by trying to go pure AND try to keep BOTH their strength and charisma high, as well as devote some of their very limited feats toward melee.

Solution? Decouple the trees. Give Sorcs some extra goodies in the high cores to give them some parity with the capabilities already available to Wizards in the tree as proposed. Change a few things up to make each class's version a little bit more unique.

[Sho-sa]

A paraphrasing of what was said in the Wednesday livestream is that you could invalidate taking Harper by taking a Wizard splash if EK included both Int to hit and Int to damage. The subtext here is that obviously Harper is a paid tree, while EK is not.



C'mon, Devs.

Aren't we past the point where Harper is considered a pay tree?

Attainable from Favor in EStar account wide, thus making it a new player trap.

This was last year's model, quit trying to charge full price for it THIS YEAR.

INT/CHA to damage is a must for this tree at this point in the game.

Heck, put into a high Core if you are worried about splashes, but if left out, this tree is incomplete.


Replace the Tree position with a staggered reduction in cost to Quicken Metamagic feat. This suits the tree concept great, Sorcs aren't left out, Harper is still valid for KtA- everybody wins!

[Alcides]

This feedback is based on the design premise that you did not want this tree to become the defacto melee tree during the Wednesday interview with Cordovan.


Core 1: Eldritch Strike: Melee Cleave Attack. +1[w]. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes.(Activation Cost: 0 SP Cooldown: 12 seconds)


This ability has a very long cooldown and should be reduced to 8 or 6 seconds. The force damage should scale with caster level not character level.



Core 2: Spellsword (you get all four of the following toggles, 5SP to activate). Passive: +1% doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power. You gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial Weapons.

Corrosive: Charge your equipped weapon with magical Acid, causing them to deal an addtional 1d6 (element) damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 (wizard/sorcerer) levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18). This damage scales with Acid Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional Acid damage per Character Level which scales with Acid Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch.
Flaming: As above, with fire
Frost: As above, with cold
Shock: As above, with electric



The d6 elemental damage should probably scale by 1 for each odd caster level past 3. The d2 elemental damage should scale with caster level not character level.



Improved Mage Armor: (unchanged) Spell Like Ability: Mage Armor. (Activation Cost: 8/6/4 Spell Points). In addition, while you are under the effect of the Mage Armor spell, you gain a +3%/+6%/+10% Exceptional Bonus to Armor Class.


This enhancement is so brokenly overpowered for a tier 1 enhancement that it strains credulity. I would strongly recommend moving this up the tree or changing the Armor Class bonus to 3/6/10 PRR and split the Armor Class bonus across the 2 Knight's Transformation enhancements. Multiclass builds should have to work harder for AC than just splashing 1 class level. This is almost as bad as when splashing Paladin 2 gave charisma to saves before it was changed to scale at 2 + 3 * Paladin level.



Arcane Siphon: Melee Attack:+1/2/3[w]. On hit: Gain +10/20/30 Universal Spell Power for 20 seconds. 12 second cooldown.


This ability has a very long cooldown and really should be reduced to 8 or 6 seconds. I would also recommend moving this up to tier 3 since a lot of builds can benefit from 30 spell power.



Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the enhancement bonus of your equipped shield.


This should give more temporary hit points than this. Consider changing this to the enhancement bonus to shield plus caster level for heroic and 3 times the enhancement bonus of the shield plus 3 times caster level at epic.



Eldritch Tempest: Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +5[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 1 second. (Activation Cost: 50/40/30 Spell points. Cooldown: 60/45/30 seconds) If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. (now 1AP per rank)


This ability has a very long cooldown and should be 24/18/12 seconds. The mana cost balances it against fighters and barbarians which have infinite melee damage. The force damage should scale with caster level not character level.


FAQ:

What's the deal with Knight's Transformation?
You'll probably notice that the cast range restrictions while Knight's Transformation is active are very similar to Epic Defensive Fighting. With the tree's focus on wading into melee range for combat, this is a tree where offensive spellcasting range can afford to be close-quarters; for that tradeoff, the Eldritch Knight gets a big boost to spellcasting AND weapon combat. If you have both this and Epic Defensive Fighting toggled on in the Epic levels, you do not suffer a further penalty to casting range, so they synergize well.

Why did you drop Permanent Tenser's out of this tree?
As we evaluated the existing tree's strengths and weaknesses, it occurred to us that if we wanted the role of Eldritch Knights to be "Character that excels at both Spells and Weapons", then Tenser's was counterproductive to that, as it increased your spell cooldowns dramatically. We put together Knight's Transformation to replace it.


Tenser's Transformation *IS* an integral part of several melee builds at higher level play. I think removing it from the tree is a good thing as it is a powerful spell that non arcane melee builds should have very limited access to. That being said, Knight's Transformation should reduce the penalties of Tenser's Transformation by half and Improved Knight's Transformation should remove all penalties of the spell. Tenser's Transformation is necessary to arcane melee caster builds due to the extra hit points, armor class, and base attack bonus. Being in melee requires a lot of hit points which was the design premise for Epic Defensive Fighting being added to the game in the first place.

[Alcides]

I like what I'm seeing so far, as someone who likes to run melee casters. However, Sorcs are really getting the short end of the stick here. They don't get the feats to dabble in melee, and without a CHA-to-damage option in the tree, they are that much farther behind Wizards, as well as melee Divines of all stripes, really.

The fact that Harper exists is a HUGE factor in this. A Wizard can go pure, put a few points into Harper for both KTA and INT-to-damage, still be a serviceable caster, as well as a surprisingly competent melee here.

Sorcs would either have to multiclass fairly deeply to leverage their casting stat that way, therefore gimping their casting (both DCs and spell levels/penetration) or gimp themselves both ways by trying to go pure AND try to keep BOTH their strength and charisma high, as well as devote some of their very limited feats toward melee.

Solution? Decouple the trees. Give Sorcs some extra goodies in the high cores to give them some parity with the capabilities already available to Wizards in the tree as proposed. Change a few things up to make each class's version a little bit more unique.

For 3 enhancement points, PDK sorcerers can get Charisma to hit and damage with several weapons. That would be at least 77 other points to play with. I think a single design is good enough since sorcerers cast faster and get more mana than wizards. Wizards get more metamagic feats, slower cast time, and less mana.

[akalin2012]

Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range. You cannot enable the Enlarge Metamagic while this is active. You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage. Your Base Attack Bonus equals your Character Level.



So... question about Knight's transformation. It says, and I quite "all your spells and SLAs that are affected by metamagics have their range reduced to touch range." Does this effect any spells which can be effected by metamagics, or only spells that are *actively* being affected by a metamagic? I.E. could I maintain the full range on ray spells/SLAs by choosing not to enable any metamagics on them (despite this being a large source of an SLA's viability)

[akalin2012]

For 3 enhancement points, PDK sorcerers can get Charisma to hit and damage with several weapons. That would be at least 77 other points to play with. I think a single design is good enough since sorcerers cast faster and get more mana than wizards. Wizards get more metamagic feats, slower cast time, and less mana.

Normally I'd agree with some sort of racial benefit, but keep in mind using PDK is a direct antithesis to being a pure sorc, as you must take a first level of fighter to have any access to PDK, even if you want to change it later, you must buy a +1 heart of wood to ever *not* have that fighter level. Plus, to be perfectly honest, I and quite a few others I speak with have a certain disdain for iconics. I mean, they're great if you actually lingering at epic levels, but... quite a few people don't...

[akalin2012]

Wizards get more metamagic feats, slower cast time, and less mana.

That seems like a good tradeoff when you consider they can also keep their caster levels and get their casting stat to attack *and* damage with minimal stat investment into Harper Agent, whereas sorcs would need to multiclass and thus sacrifice at least some of their spellcasting potential to reach the same level of melee acuity. That being said, this might be enough to *make up* for the metamagics, as honestly the EK tree seems to go out of it's way to be a disincentive to them what with reducing spells to touch range in what would seem to be it's core stance. Which is not to say that one couldn't cope with that anyway, but wizards will also be able to synergize their trees in ways that the Sorc doesn't seem able to. For example, taking the enhancement to be able to have better enchant DCs would synergize well with Vampire form (achievable with a bare min 11 points in PM) which also allows self healing for fleshy EKs, and at that, a splash into Archmage enough to get a respectable single target CC SLA to prevent being retaliated against in melee as much (like Otto's Resistable dance, an enchant AM SLA which I believe you can get as the second core, so 6 AP... maybe another 11 if you want hold person) This means that, even leaving as much as 58-63 AP to spend in the actual EK tree, you can have a decent single target CC, self healing/damage aura. What's more, for 12 AP in harper, you can get your int to damage (the to hit can be provided by EK and can be skipped in Harper) leaving at *least* 46 AP to spend in EK. So the Wizard class can get good CC abilities/stacking enchant DC bonuses, self regeneration/burst healing with death aura/NEB, more physical damage than a pure Sorc EK could achieve, and to top it all off that doesn't even cost them the capstone.

[Coffey]

If Spellsword would be made to disable melee damage completely when toggled on, int or cha to damage would not be an issue. OP Multiclassing would not be an issue. Increase the spellsword dice and enable spell power crits% and let the force be with you :P

[Skyrender]

I hope the tier 4 off-hand boost gets runearm and two-weapon options. To be honest, it wouldn't even need to be complicated. Just give the TWF option offhand attack chance and/or offhand doublestrike, maybe like a 10%/5% combo. Simply allowing you to use runearms like an artificer would be good, too.

[Alcides]

Normally I'd agree with some sort of racial benefit, but keep in mind using PDK is a direct antithesis to being a pure sorc, as you must take a first level of fighter to have any access to PDK, even if you want to change it later, you must buy a +1 heart of wood to ever *not* have that fighter level. Plus, to be perfectly honest, I and quite a few others I speak with have a certain disdain for iconics. I mean, they're great if you actually lingering at epic levels, but... quite a few people don't...

The first level of iconics are a design oversight as in my opinion they should be treated as an "iconic race" which starts at level 15 as they currently do since they are designed to start in Eveningstar. Or people should receive a character bound +1 heart of wood each time they create an iconic or ITR. That's a far cry from antithesis. A lot of people I know stay at cap or keep a few toons at cap, and have some for heroic/racial TRs. But to each their own I guess. The original conversation was about Charisma to Attack and Damage which there is an option available for Sorcerers. It's not as flexible as wizard, but one does exist.

[LordTigerDawn]

What's the deal with Knight's Transformation?

the Eldritch Knight gets a big boost to spellcasting AND weapon combat

You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage

---

Apparently your definition of big boost is significantly different than mine. Your missing a decimal place. With the decimal place boost, I would still probably not use it. Tenser's scrolls are too easy to use instead.

[Claver]

So... question about Knight's transformation. It says, and I quite "all your spells and SLAs that are affected by metamagics have their range reduced to touch range." Does this effect any spells which can be effected by metamagics, or only spells that are *actively* being affected by a metamagic? I.E. could I maintain the full range on ray spells/SLAs by choosing not to enable any metamagics on them (despite this being a large source of an SLA's viability)

See Below


Knights Transformation affects all spells and SLAs (*) that I have tested - not just those affected by metamagics. As the enhancement description is written, it could be confused to mean that if I don't have any metamagics toggled on a particular spell, I can cast that spell at normal range. Please consider changing the description to read "While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs have their range reduced to touch range" for ease of understanding

[john0]

I think a cha to dmg would be good for sorc players, since wizards have harper tree for int (their main stat) to dmg.

maybe make the int/cha to hit on t2 while int/cha to dmg on t4

[SiliconScout]

...
Quick Draw reduces the time between casting and returning to your weapon attack chain.Not sure if this has been brought up yet, really hoping it has but just in case it hasn't the 1 second delay you introduced has made Quick Draw pretty much less than useless it's actually a trap and wasted feat IMHO. Unless of course you are getting rid of it, or at least getting rid of it for the EK. It is a tiny bit faster sure but to run so deep in the tree, well by the time you get it I expect you shouldn't really need it any more.

If you have accounted for that please post because if you haven't then it honestly makes one wonder what the knowledge level is of the internal play testers. I am down to casual hours playing and visiting the forums maybe 2 times a week but even I am aware of the massive nerf that Quick Draw took.

[SpardaX]

Can you write this out a little more? What are these numbers? 7d6 from this Eldritch Knight revamp, I read 9d8 from Arcane Archer if you Tier 5. What's the 2d20?

So a Elf, or any race with access to Arcane Archer, full level 20 Wizard, sitting at level 30, taking Tier 5 in Arcane Archer, getting full cores from Eldritch Knight, is gonna do about 1000 damage per arrow?

To answer your first question:
7d8 = 7 x 4.5 = 31.5, 7d6 = 7 x 3.5 = 24.5, and 2d20 = 2 x 11.5 = 21.
Total those up, you get 77 at 0 spell power, and at 800 spell power you multiply by 9 to get 693.
If you instead go 9d8 from AA and 5d6 from Wizard, follow the same numbers, you end up at 711. More if you can pull more out of Wizard. BUT

To answer the second part of your question:
In theory, yes. And this is the first place my brain went.
Then I sat down and thought about it for a bit.

In practice, unlocking AA from Elf requires at minimum, 14 Action Points.
Tier 5 AA then requires 32 points (30 points for tier 5, 2 points for +2d8 dice. And that's assuming you dont also want all the other good Tier 5 Archery, which if you've spent this many points, you should probably consider.)
Core 6 EK to get the +1d6 and the 4d6 on and off is 41 points.

So to get everything you want, you need 87 points minimum. 8 more if you want to soak up all the Tier 5 AA stuff, but lets not even worry about that right now.
If you're well on your way into Racial Lives, this might mean nothing to you, but Im sure as heck not, so sadly this is a build I'll have to just longingly imagine personally. If you do want all the AA Goodness, its 15 points out, which means even someone finished their lives, and also has a tome of +1, is still 3 points short.

So one day? Maybe. But not right now at least.

[SpardaX]

Also, a shout out to the Devs if they see and read this. As we're currently doing EK passes, and I read early in this forum thread that PM Passes are in the works, are we able to fix it so that the Negative Energy Death Wardy % Items don't drain Undead Healing please? I know Undead just seem to constantly have issues crop up with them due to negative energy issues, but even if you guys just say you know about it and are working towards it, I would be happy.

I was kinda sad when I finally got my Outfit of the Celestial Guardian out of Tempest Spine and threw it on, only to find I'd lost 30 - 50 of my healing each tick.

[Hjarki]

In practice, unlocking AA from Elf requires at minimum, 14 Action Points.
Tier 5 AA then requires 32 points (30 points for tier 5, 2 points for +2d8 dice. And that's assuming you dont also want all the other good Tier 5 Archery, which if you've spent this many points, you should probably consider.)
Core 6 EK to get the +1d6 and the 4d6 on and off is 41 points.

I'd argue that almost everything beyond Core 2 EK is a waste for such a build. Most of it is melee-focused anyway. The capstone for AA is a lot better than the capstone for EK as well - 20% Doubleshot is a big boost while getting some minor passives and a useless-for-ranged active isn't going to do much for you.

[Silverleafeon]

The problem with using a missile projective build with a magic+combat hybrid is the sheathing of weapons.

Noticed this long ago playing a Silver Flame Favored Soul.


If you have been engaged in melee-ranged combat and go to cast a spell then back to combat the following happens:

Sheath weapon system (yes, this is the public area command - weapons are still considered equipped but they no longer show)

{it is possible quick draw will help with thus}

Begin casting spell

{quicken will definitely help with thus}

Draw weapon system animation

{quick draw will definitely help with thus}

Load any projective into projective weapon

{rapid reload is likely to help here}

Attack



In reality a thrower build has to draw out a new "weapon" every time thus attacks...

[Ballrus]

If youre referring to the spellsword imbues, they scale with spell power now, but do not benefit from metamagic spell power increases or spell power crit %. Spellsword imbues work the same as arcane archer imbues in that respect.

Thank you.

[SpardaX]

I'd argue that almost everything beyond Core 2 EK is a waste for such a build. Most of it is melee-focused anyway. The capstone for AA is a lot better than the capstone for EK as well - 20% Doubleshot is a big boost while getting some minor passives and a useless-for-ranged active isn't going to do much for you.

I actually fully agree with you, to the point where I'm already planning a pure Wizard and still going to attempt this.

That post was mainly to address the fact that, if you do plan to go the pure Elf route, you can't expect to get ALL the dice. (AA Dice + EK Dice)

Because getting that last 1d6 DOES require you get the capstone in EK. As bad a choice as that is.

[masterofthewand]

Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range.

What the heck is this?...... I'm gona loose my temper over this...

[Sormiron]

I think it would be cool if eldritch strike and Eldritch tempest gave you better buffs with later cores. Extra spellsword dice, extra damage/dc on the next spell. maybe as the lvl 20 core make the spellsword able to crit with spell lore. Mayhaps all these things should stack up the longer a fight goes on. like during a boss fight or tough mobs.

These things should be higher up in the cores though so it gives more reason to stick to being pure and go melee.

as someone said, the lack of feats is a problem for sorceres sadly so I have to chime in there. I am not entirely sure how to fix it. as it is now
I´d probably go with some Savant elemental form to prevent mobs from being immune to whatever element I am using. but then I am avoiding being eldritch knight and limiting myself to cast at point blank. choices choices..
I am not sure it is good to make spellsword itself to cause mobs to be vulnerable to an element or no.

Giving debuffs or dot for spells and melee attacks while spellsword is active is a cool idea mentioned earlier.

Also there is the Arcane warrior feat to play with. It could add something like 2 spellsword dice aswell. there is so much that is can be done with a hybrid to make the advancing of the character fun and viable.

I always wondered if the goal is to make it go towards shield and board. if so there needs to be a lot more benifit from it. maybe focusing on shield and board should be some kind of debuffer/cc/buffer kind of type. making it a damage dealer outside of point blank spells is tricky.

[Emerge2012]

I think it would be cool if eldritch strike and Eldritch tempest gave you better buffs with later cores. Extra spellsword dice, extra damage/dc on the next spell. maybe as the lvl 20 core make the spellsword able to crit with spell lore. Mayhaps all these things should stack up the longer a fight goes on. like during a boss fight or tough mobs.

These things should be higher up in the cores though so it gives more reason to stick to being pure and go melee.

as someone said, the lack of feats is a problem for sorceres sadly so I have to chime in there. I am not entirely sure how to fix it. as it is now
I´d probably go with some Savant elemental form to prevent mobs from being immune to whatever element I am using. but then I am avoiding being eldritch knight and limiting myself to cast at point blank. choices choices..
I am not sure it is good to make spellsword itself to cause mobs to be vulnerable to an element or no.

Giving debuffs or dot for spells and melee attacks while spellsword is active is a cool idea mentioned earlier.

Also there is the Arcane warrior feat to play with. It could add something like 2 spellsword dice aswell. there is so much that is can be done with a hybrid to make the advancing of the character fun and viable.

I always wondered if the goal is to make it go towards shield and board. if so there needs to be a lot more benifit from it. maybe focusing on shield and board should be some kind of debuffer/cc/buffer kind of type. making it a damage dealer outside of point blank spells is tricky.

There are some possibilities but the entire tree needs to be reworked again. Sorc/bard with cha to atk/dm would be kind of neat due to swash swf with a buckler, except the new nuke spells make going melee absolutely pointless for a sorc based build unless they somehow manage to run out of spellpoints. EK as a wizard opens up self healing and some defense from PM but you run into the problem they're still not good defensively overall and the DPS is going to be awful. They won't be able to tank as intim investment is asking way too much as a wizard, they won't hold any sort of hate aggro, and then there's the fact they're still pretty squishy and any monk would make a more suitable tank. Then there's the issue of touch range spells absolutely destroying the idea of a spellsword anyways. The temp HP from the shield enhancement is exceptionally poor and the reworked tier 5 aoe attack is also. The shield needs to add hp at triple shield enhancement, and double that in epics, maybe even 4 seconds instead of 6, and the AOE attack needs a longer trip.


I like what they're doing with bard and everything else with the update, but EK is still going to be something that new players try out and abandon quickly because it's still going to be the worst tree in the game even after the fact.

[Cantor]

What's the deal with Knight's Transformation?

the Eldritch Knight gets a big boost to spellcasting AND weapon combat

You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage

---

Apparently your definition of big boost is significantly different than mine. Your missing a decimal place. With the decimal place boost, I would still probably not use it. Tenser's scrolls are too easy to use instead.

3% is so absurdly low for multiplier I just read it as crit chance at first glance... needs fixing.

[K_9]

Quick question from me. Apologies if answered already but didn't see it.

Core 2: Spellsword (you get all four of the following toggles, 5SP to activate). Passive: +1% doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power. You gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial Weapons.
Corrosive: Charge your equipped weapon with magical Acid, causing them to deal an addtional 1d6 (element) damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 (wizard/sorcerer) levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18). This damage scales with Acid Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional Acid damage per Character Level which scales with Acid Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch.
Flaming: As above, with fire
Frost: As above, with cold
Shock: As above, with electric

Does this work when duel wielding, ie does it proc on both weapons on hit? Thanks

[SpardaX]

Quick question from me. Apologies if answered already but didn't see it.

Core 2: Spellsword (you get all four of the following toggles, 5SP to activate). Passive: +1% doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power. You gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial Weapons.
Corrosive: Charge your equipped weapon with magical Acid, causing them to deal an addtional 1d6 (element) damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 (wizard/sorcerer) levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18). This damage scales with Acid Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional Acid damage per Character Level which scales with Acid Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch.
Flaming: As above, with fire
Frost: As above, with cold
Shock: As above, with electric

Does this work when duel wielding, ie does it proc on both weapons on hit? Thanks


I don't know about the updated version on Lam, but what I can say is, it does work with TWF as of right now.


Also now that I've fully read the thread, I like the idea someone came up with for adding crits to the spellsword toggle based off your spell critical chance. Im not sure its possible to, but if you were to put that in at Tier 5 or Core 5 or 6 it would definitely be a nice high level boost to damage. But I assume something such as whether an ability can crit is probably all or nothing, and can't be turned on later. If so, I think it'd go well to help by turning it on

Edit: I also like the idea of EK getting a "Moonbow" style thing in tier 5, as people have rightly pointed out that casting a spell every 12 seconds is probably going to be a drain.
And to that guy that said: You either dont have 4000 Spell Points, are Casting the wrong spells, or are not getting temporary spell points 33% of the time off every spell you cast
My answer is 1: No, I'm a wizard. 2: What spells are the right spells? And 3: No, I'm a wizard.

I would also agree with people in saying, I don't mind the new Tier 4 and 5 EK toggles, but I would still take Permanent Tensors over them, so if that could be a multiselector option I would really like that. People have suggested having the penalties removed being a potential upgrade, and that would make me Extra happy, but seriously, penalty or no, I like that permanent tensors, and would appreciate if it doesnt get removed.

To the guy that said "Just cast the spell, a max wizard is going to have a good time limit on it!"
Not really. I will admit my main Wizard is only 18, not pure 20, but even at caster level 18 with extend going, tensors lasts just over 3 minutes. What you and what I consider "good time limit" might be different, but at least in my opinion, 3 minutes for 50 spell points that Im going to have to recast over and over is not a good time limit.

Of course Im already casting Death Aura and Displacement every 2 - 3 minutes, so if I need to add Tensors to my rotation in that regard, I guess I'll live.
I would just prefer not to.

[Tuxedoman96]

Quick question from me. Apologies if answered already but didn't see it.

Core 2: Spellsword (you get all four of the following toggles, 5SP to activate). Passive: +1% doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power. You gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial Weapons.
Corrosive: Charge your equipped weapon with magical Acid, causing them to deal an addtional 1d6 (element) damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 (wizard/sorcerer) levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18). This damage scales with Acid Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional Acid damage per Character Level which scales with Acid Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch.
Flaming: As above, with fire
Frost: As above, with cold
Shock: As above, with electric

Does this work when duel wielding, ie does it proc on both weapons on hit? Thanks

As far as the devs have said, there is no ICD for the spellsword dmg.

[Propane]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

If folks are "melee" -I would expect them to lean towards Dire Charge at CAP...

Option A
1 sec with no save (current)

Option B
6 sec with DC is (20 + highest ability modifier + bonus to stun attacks)

(allow selector for either )

[Tilomere]

More important is the feedback from people who have played it on Lamannia so far, which has been generally positive. To (once again) be mildly blunt, theorycrafting without playing provides far less useful feedback, as it's often based on assumptions and guesswork that aren't accurate.

Which makes sense; we've been playing with this tree for a month or two internally, and people are now seeing it for the first time and starting to grasp what's possible with it. We know what build types work and don't within this version of the tree already. I've built 13 different builds using this tree and have run them all through actual content. There'll (of course) be builds using it that we didn't expect in the end, which is great, but those don't tend to emerge until 2-3 weeks after a new tree hits Live and people start really working with it.

When we hear several people say "I haven't played it, but this ability/tree seems really weak" vs. a few say "I've played this on Lamannia and it feels fine", we're more likely to lean on the latter, because it's based on actual play.

Also, as we've said before - How often a build gets played has no bearing on how powerful (let alone how valid/good) a build is. There are plenty of decently powerful builds that aren't played that often. Like Beacon of Hope and Renegade Mastermaker, this tree has a non-typical playstyle. It won't be for everyone, but we're hoping that it'll be fun and able to hold up in content for those who want to play a hybrid melee/caster.

+1

I've played all sorts of hybrids now of every single combat style and all sorts of multiclassed and pure hybrid builds and I'm happy with most of them. I can honestly just look and see that Wizard/Sorc have both mass hold and charm spells, and either AoE helpless with all the available helpless damage in the game or charms (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/493950-Simple-Heroic-Reaper-Paladin)(heroic gameplay) are really all anyone needs to make a successful hybrid. I've been mostly using soundburst (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/496822-The-Call-to-Soundburst), but mass hold, charms, and/or color spray also works.

No, this isn't the melee in R10 while simultaneously DC casting in R10 at cap build like a boss, but that's what you get for making a hybrid. A unique experience that is enjoyable because it is unique, in lieu of enjoyment from raw power. Plus if you pug the default server like I do, where a reaper group is 2 vets, 3 new players, and a cleric hire, a hybrid that can do multiple things on lower difficulties is a fairly good choice.


The main problem that I see with this tree is that it attempts to combine boosts to DAMAGE casting with boosts to melee combat. That's NOT how hybrid toons work in this game. Hybrid toons pick ONE damage source and combine that with DC casting, not damage casting.

If you REALLY want to make this tree *good*, remove all the boosts to SPELLPOWER and replace them with saving throw debuffs or DC increases, because that's how you're going to play an Eldritch Knight. Crowd control it and whack it.

That is where I started, because it was simple to comprehend when I started making my soundburst hybrids. AoE helpless > whack with stick.

I'm moving beyond that now, but it took me seven months of experimentation on a wide amount of builds to start thinking more broadly. For example, I started with this simpler dagger caster (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/500345-Call-to-Soundburst-(Heroic-Angel-of-Destruction-v-Tilo)) one (which would be styling in heroics if they fixed time bomb). I'm on more complex ones now.

[masterofthewand]

Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range.

What the heck is this?...... I'm gona loose my temper over this...

Why aren’t more people outraged by this? Only a handful of people even mentioned it, this ruins so many builds that already exist, I’m trying really hard not to insult people but I’ve had enough, if they do this I’m done, 11 years and that would be the final straw, they’ve messed with my moose too many times, that’s one of the worst mechanics ever conceived and they’re gonna put it on Eldrich Knight. Who in their right mind would discourage ranged magical attack on an arcane warrior type character? What would be the point of playing that type of character? why not just play any other Melee character? My head is still exploding...

[Sho-sa]

Why aren’t more people outraged by this? Only a handful of people even mentioned it, this ruins so many builds that already exist, I’m trying really hard not to insult people but I’ve had enough, if they do this I’m done, 11 years and that would be the final straw, they’ve messed with my moose too many times, that’s one of the worst mechanics ever conceived and they’re gonna put it on Eldrich Knight. Who in their right mind would discourage ranged magical attack on an arcane warrior type character? What would be the point of playing that type of character? why not just play any other Melee character? My head is still exploding...



As one of the handful who mentioned this I will tell you why I am not bothering to be outraged.


After the EPIC fail of EPIC Defensive Fighting (the listening to feedback (not- haha), how we did NOT want this, Ftr/Pally left out, and so forth) and their final result was to cut the benefit in half while still leaving 100% of the fail; I conclude this is just something they are going to do no matter what.


I have zero plans in playing EK pure, it will always be a hybrid for this very reason. I will NEVER take these tiers, therefore high level EK is pointless.


I mean honestly, why does any player think they took the absolute number one best thing about EK (perma Tenser's), deleted it, and shoved Epic Defensive Fail down our throats in Heroic?


Obviously this, "no casting to help other players," silliness is something SSG is wedded to, therefore it is pointless to be outraged over it. Control the things you can in life. Trust me, they are NOT gonna listen.


As they progress to whittle away the things which make DDO great, the game will die. Which is fair, what twelve years now? It's been a good run. We all know the Devs don't actually play this game, because honestly, the stuff they come up with on their own is simply laughable.


I will play toons which are fun and do NOT include this Epic Defensive Fail silliness.


Once they finish their grand plan to turn us all into THEIR plan for OUR characters I will be out the door and will the last one to leave please turn out the lights.


I mean seriously, what 'profitable' company devotes its time turning out products its customers don't want?

[Chacka_DDO]

Like for the Epic Defensive Fighting feat also here I don't think there is any need to restrict all spells to touch range if you want to use Knight's Transformation.
I don't get why you want to cripple casters without any real need for it :confused:
Remember a game is there to have fun and not to spoil the fun as much as possible with unnecessary "interesting limitations"

And as before I don't get the sense of a knockdown for 1 second on Eldritch Tempest with at least 30 seconds cooldown, this is more or less just only an useless optical effect.
Similar to Dire Charge I would expect a ratio of 15 seconds cooldown and 6 seconds duration for such an ability!

[Chacka_DDO]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

Just to mention it, it is questionable if a Difficult Check is needed at all in a game like DDO.
For example, I played recently Diablo III for some weeks and there all abilities like stun or blindness work every time you hit a monster with it and they even work on every boss, and it is a lot of fun to play Diablo III without such Difficult Checks we have in DDO.
And you may consider that Blizzard is much more successful with Diablo III than SSG with DDO and this maybe because they simply do some things better.
In many things, DDO should be different from what we have now and some things demand simplifications in DDO because sometimes less is simply better.

For the DC checks, I would, in general, suggest a paradigm shift the question should not be if an ability work or not if you have good items and character stats, the question should be how often you can use them and how powerful they are.
It is just only frustrating if you use something especially with a long cooldown time and all you get is a message that the monster resists what you did or even worse the monster is immune.
Such frustrating moments are simply unnecessary and it makes a game worse if they are an inherent part of a game in my opinion.

howsoever I don't expect such a paradigm shift any time soon.
But back to Eldritch Tempest, 1 second is simply not enough even if it is irresistible if you can use it only every 30 seconds, sure you can say you want it as the optical effect with no real use but I think this ability should be really useful.

My suggestion would be to make this enhancement and Drifting Lotus and Lay Waste 15 seconds cooldown and 6 seconds duration and set them all on the same cooldown timer.
And make the DC check for Eldritch Tempest against fortitude or reflex with a 10 + half character level + charisma or int modifier + trip bonuses.

[elvesunited]

Why aren’t more people outraged by this? Only a handful of people even mentioned it, this ruins so many builds that already exist, I’m trying really hard not to insult people but I’ve had enough, if they do this I’m done, 11 years and that would be the final straw, they’ve messed with my moose too many times, that’s one of the worst mechanics ever conceived and they’re gonna put it on Eldrich Knight. Who in their right mind would discourage ranged magical attack on an arcane warrior type character? What would be the point of playing that type of character? why not just play any other Melee character? My head is still exploding...

I suspect that there simply aren't that many eldritch knight players. This has been considered the worst enhancement tree for some time. ( Splashes do not count ) Even as a flavor build it is a troubled build. Splitting feats and equipment between spellcasting and melee is very rough. I personally have only theorycrafted it.

It would appear that the cast a spell to soften the enemy up and charge in to finish off with melee attacks
( or just keep distant in event of a boss rating well beyond the eldritch knights defensive capabilities )
---- has been changed to ----
Pure melee who is constantly rotating between melee attacks and touch range spells to buff up both.

So yeah that's a big hit. Much worse than double cooldown from Tenser. And I think the idea is that they've boosted the DPS through a combined melee/magic assault to the point where its much more competitive. ( or so the rumor has it )

It probably won't matter though because:

1) The defensive capabilities are still severely subpar even with the additional hp.
2) The viability of casting any high level spell ( even with quicken ) while engaged in melee combat is dubious. ( I'm guessing its faster casting that allows sorceror to hold even with wizard in testing )
3) The spell point management of constant casting in combat is questionable. ( yeah they got rid of the irritating spell point costs in the cores but .... )
4) I'm not sure how viable touch range DC casting is. ( or how that will help you went attacked by a mob )
5) The feat starvation issue hasn't been addressed at all. ( unless you count free quick draw )

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

https://i.imgur.com/84Yor4P.jpg


Core 1: Eldritch Strike: Melee Cleave Attack. +1[w]. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes.(Activation Cost: 0 SP Cooldown: 12 seconds)

You gain proficiency with Simple Weapons
Every Core Ability in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you +10 Max HP




Core 2: Spellsword (you get all four of the following toggles, 5SP to activate). Passive: +1% doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power. You gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial Weapons.

Corrosive: Charge your equipped weapon with magical Acid, causing them to deal an addtional 1d6 (element) damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 (wizard/sorcerer) levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18). This damage scales with Acid Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional Acid damage per Character Level which scales with Acid Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch.
Flaming: As above, with fire
Frost: As above, with cold
Shock: As above, with electric




Core 3: Melee weapons are considered Spellcasting Implements in your hands. You gain the Quick Draw feat and proficiency with Bastard Swords

-15% Arcane Spell Failure from equipped Armor and Shields
+1% doublestrike
+10 Universal spellpower




Core 4: Subtle Force: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds.

-20% Arcane Spell Failure from equipped Armor and Shields
+6 Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, and Sonic
+10 Universal spellpower




Core 5: Subtle Force II: +5% Stacking Incorporeality. Your Deflect Arrows now triggers every 2 seconds.

+1% doublestrike
+10 Universal spellpower




Core 6: Eldritch Blade:



Your Eldritch Strike now grants you a Power Charge. When you have 5 Power Charges, they are removed, and you gain Eldritch Power. Eldritch Power: +10% melee damage, +4d6 Spellsword Dice, +3d4 Force Damage on Hit (this scales with Force spell power), +25 Universal spellpower, +15 PRR, +40 MRR. Duration 30 seconds.
Passive:

+1 Spellsword Die
+2 (Intelligence/Charisma), +2 Constitution
+10 Universal spellpower




Tier 1:


Improved Mage Armor: (unchanged) Spell Like Ability: Mage Armor. (Activation Cost: 8/6/4 Spell Points). In addition, while you are under the effect of the Mage Armor spell, you gain a +3%/+6%/+10% Exceptional Bonus to Armor Class.
Arcane Siphon: Melee Attack:+1/2/3[w]. On hit: Gain +10/20/30 Universal Spell Power for 20 seconds. 12 second cooldown.
Item Defense (unchanged) You have a 25%/50%/75% chance to negate potential item wear.
Toughness (unchanged) +5/10/15 Max HP
Battlemage (unchanged) +1/+2/+3 Concentration, Intimidate, and Spellcraft.

Tier 2:


Improved Shield: Spell Like Ability: Shield (Activation Cost: 8/6/4 Spell points). In addition, while you are under the effect of the Shield spell, you gain +3/+6/+10 Exceptional Bonus to Physical Resistance Rating.
Sheltering: +5/10/15/20/25 MRR and PRR.
Action Boost: Spell Power: Activate to gain a +10/+20/+30 Action Boost bonus to Spell Power for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
Shield Training: (unchanged) Passive: You gain proficiency with all shields except Tower Shields, and your Arcane Spell Failure chance from equipped shields is reduced by 5%.
Wand & Scroll Mastery (unchanged) +25%/+50%/+75% effectiveness from your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells, and +1/+2/+3 to the save DC of your offensive wands. Taking Wand and Scroll Mastery in one enhancement tree will block its availability in other enhancement trees.

Tier 3:


Arcane Barrier: (Now 1 Rank): Passive: When your HP drop below 50% of maximum, you are immediately protected by an Arcane Barrier that reduces all incoming damage by 25% for the next 20 seconds. This effect may only trigger once every 90 seconds.
Eldritch Combatant: You get (INT/CHA) to hit and damage with weapons and shield bashes.



Synergetic Magic: While you have Action Boost: Spell Power active, you also get the benefits of Action Boost: Power (+10/20/30 Action Boost bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power for 20 seconds.)
Critical Mastery: +1/2/3 to confirm critical hits and critical hit damage (before weapon multipliers)
Ability Score Multiselctor (unchanged) +1 STR/DEX/(INT or CHA)

Tier 4:


Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range. You cannot enable the Enlarge Metamagic while this is active. You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage. Your Base Attack Bonus equals your Character Level.



Improved Offhand: Multiselector:

Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the enhancement bonus of your equipped shield. Additionally there is a chance that when hit you are granted 100 temporary hit points
Orb Saves: +1/2/3 to saving throws and +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power while holding an Orb, additionally when hit there is a chance that you will gain 50 temporary spellpoints.


Force's Point: When you cast a spell, you gain a stack of Force's Point: Martial (+1 to Hit and Damage). This stacks up to 5 times. When you hit with a melee weapon, you gain a stack of Force's Point: Magical (+2 Universal Spell Power). This stacks up to 10 times. Stacks last for 12 seconds each. You may only gain each effect once per second.
Armored Arcana: You gain proficiency in Medium Armor, and suffer no Arcane Spell Failure from Light or Medium Armor and when in medium armor you gain +25% fortification.
Ability Score Multiselctor (unchanged) +1 STR/DEX/(INT or CHA)

Tier 5:


Improved Knight's Transformation: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with Melee Weapons.
Knight's Magic: Multiselector:

Knight Striker: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +2 to Evocation DCs, +2 to Conjuration DCs, the spell Heal is now added to your spellbook as a level 7 spell.
Knight Controller: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +2 to Enchantment DCs, +4 Spell Penetration, and there is now a chance to charm an enemy on being hit to do your bidding, while they are charmed they recieve +8 to all stats, charmed state lasts for 45 seconds and when it ends their hit points are halved.
Knight Of Death: If you have Knight's Transformation active then the spellpoint cost of Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst are halved (Discount applies also to the cost of any metamagic feats effecting said spell). Additionally while using The Shroud Of The Vampire you receive the benefits of improved shrouding.


Force's Edge: When you cast a spell, you gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range for 12 seconds. When you make a Melee Attack, you gain +5% Spell Critical Chance for 12 seconds.
Radiant Forcefield: Spell Like Ability: Radiant Forcefield (Activation Cost: 30 Spell Points. Cooldown: 3 minutes.)



Eldritch Tempest: Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +5[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 1 second. (Activation Cost: 50/40/30 Spell points. Cooldown: 60/45/30 seconds) If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. (now 1AP per rank)


Video supporting suggested changes in link below!

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/336827642

[Hjarki]

There are some possibilities but the entire tree needs to be reworked again. Sorc/bard with cha to atk/dm would be kind of neat due to swash swf with a buckler, except the new nuke spells make going melee absolutely pointless for a sorc based build unless they somehow manage to run out of spellpoints.

The bolt spells and single target nuke upgrades won't keep pace with the magical damage (much less the physical damage) weapons combat would provide. The 9th level spells might, but they're out of range for any Bard multi-class with Sorcerer. Casting a single target damage spell would be a loss of dps except in rare circumstances (certain strange leveling breakpoints, etc.) Keep in mind that a build like Bard S&B attacks ~4 times per second at max level.

Casting an AE spell would be useful. However, the lack of a viable arcane caster melee Destiny means that any build emphasizing AE spell damage + melee combat would have to pick one or the other in Epic levels.

That leaves CC spells. Since Bards already get all of the Enchantment-based CC Sorcerers do and get Soundburst on top of that, the added benefit of Sorcerer levels would be primarily confined to oddities like Halt Undead and Sleet Storm that aren't subject to SR and can be acquired at relatively low levels.

You also have to ask: why take Sorcerer levels when you already have Bard ones? Virtually everything EK offers is something Bards can already do from their own native abilities or trees - yet rarely do. It would take a lot less effort to boost +hit by taking a first tier Warchanter ability than it would to invest 3+ levels in Sorcerer, yet Bards don't do that. It would take a lot less effort to grab their own spellpower-scaling Sonic damage ability from Swashbuckler, but Bards don't do that. Bards can already cast 90% of the useful CC of a Sorcerer, often with better DC. In essence, the biggest problem with Eldritch Knight is that it already exists and is called a 'Bard'.


EK as a wizard opens up self healing and some defense from PM but you run into the problem they're still not good defensively overall and the DPS is going to be awful.

I'm not sure about 'awful'. Tearing up a mob with EK-backed melee damage is likely to be a lot more effective than casting damage spells at it.


Then there's the issue of touch range spells absolutely destroying the idea of a spellsword anyways.

I don't agree with the 'destroying' notion for two reasons:

1. No one is actually going to take the tree that high once the luster of 'new tree' wears off. The third core is about the limit of what I'd invest on virtually any practical build.

2. It doesn't change the area of spells. So you still get full 'range' from lines and cones. Since all of your single target (and a significant chunk of your AE) damage is melee range anyway, I don't see much of a drawback in most cases.

[Chacka_DDO]

More important is the feedback from people who have played it on Lamannia so far, which has been generally positive. To (once again) be mildly blunt, theorycrafting without playing provides far less useful feedback, as it's often based on assumptions and guesswork that aren't accurate.

Which makes sense; we've been playing with this tree for a month or two internally, and people are now seeing it for the first time and starting to grasp what's possible with it. We know what build types work and don't within this version of the tree already. I've built 13 different builds using this tree and have run them all through actual content. There'll (of course) be builds using it that we didn't expect at the end, which is great, but those don't tend to emerge until 2-3 weeks after a new tree hits Live and people start really working with it.

When we hear several people say "I haven't played it, but this ability/tree seems really weak" vs. a few say "I've played this on Lamannia and it feels fine", we're more likely to lean on the latter because it's based on actual play.

Also, as we've said before - How often a build gets played has no bearing on how powerful (let alone how valid/good) a build is. There are plenty of decently powerful builds that aren't played that often. Like Beacon of Hope and Renegade Mastermaker, this tree has a non-typical playstyle. It won't be for everyone, but we're hoping that it'll be fun and able to hold up in content for those who want to play a hybrid melee/caster.

At first, you may consider some players just don't have the time to do the testing work for you on Lamannia and that you can have a good guess of something even without trying it on Lamannia.

And the next thing is that Lamannia is not often enough available it should be permanent there and there should be a permanent lively discussion between players and developers about such changes.
But what we have now is a test server that is there for a few hours and it is very unlikely that you consider any fundamental feedback anyway all you can hope is that you at least remove some major bugs that made it to Lamannia.

For example, I know how Eldritch Tempest works now and it is not much different from the new version and I know how Lay Waste and Drifting Lotus feels like if you use it and all this tells me it is simply not enough to call it useful and consider to make it a part of your character build.

But in general I can agree that you usually do a great job with the enhancements and I only say something against it when I feel that it is really needed and in the case of Eldritch Tempest and Knight's Transformation (the unnecessary touch range limitation for spells) I have the strong opinion this is simply wrong and makes DDO worse!

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

INT to damage is not currently available in the Eldritch Knight tree.

I've tested such and the Melee DPS is better if you build for strength and ignore the intelligence to hit enhancement, and further more using the harper tree for the intelligence to hit also hurts the build capabilities (12 Ap for that and you miss out on points that would be better spent for self-healing capabilities via Pale master tree). In the end, the best survivability seems to come from gaining shroud of the lich while going in the Eldritch Knight tree as the primary, but even then it falls short a bit. I have a test video showing the new Eldritch Knight Toggle to not show much improvement when on as apposed to being off (In fact I had it off most of the quest and mistakenly thought it was on). On the other hand if you added intelligence to damage along side intelligence to hit, you'd allow for a more viable build that did not have to rely on the strength stat at all.

[capsela]

Also in order to use heavy armor, you'd have to take light and medium armor as actual feats in order to take heavy armor prof.

Exactly zero sorcs and zero wizards are going to waste 3 feats for this so called benefit! So really this asf is for ppl splashing wiz or sorc! Since when are benefits on a tree just made for splashers? Also this tree is railroading us to take fighting feats through edf. My ek wasn't going to take any but I don't have a choice i see now!

So you devs expect eks to take 3 armor feats plus 4 fighting feats! And where are our magic feats supposed to fit in? We are already a feat starved class!

And if I'm in epics i would have to untoggle two stances and toggle on a third enlarge just to cast a ranged spell! Do you see how crazy that sounds? Who would ever do that? And how long would it take?

And spells don't target correct at close quarters, you have to be facing an enemy and mobs run in circles around you! half of our spells are not even going to land at close range!

Oh and the Harper is a better EK tree than the new EK! 12 pts into Harper does more damage than 50 into this tree!

[capsela]

Sigh, why can't this ability be a clickie activation?



Why only -5% from shields? Seems like a trap.



Why ONLY to hit? Wizards wouldn't be affected because of dipping into Harper tree for INT to damage while a sorc is out of luck.



Would be nice to add combat speed while using a shield.


No heavy armor? If you are a pure wizard or sorc, in order to take heavy armor, you have to spend 2 feats (light and medium armor prof) in order to take heavy.


Does this applies to shields aswell?


I don't see the point in this ability. Why not just add a +1 to threat range to Improved Knight's Transformation.

Devs want you to micro manage your buff bar. Casting a spell every 12 sec detracts from dps and may be impossible if you're out of mana, not to mention some spells take longer to cast than others. Casters have enough to worry about already! Make the time more forgiving or get rid of it! Not to .mention that some spells don't count, aoe don't count it only seems to work with magic missle based on my experience with arcane warrior.

[Itchybeard]

.../snip/

The Nancy Pelosi trap, "We have to pass the bill to see what's in the bill," only works in the fantasy land of Federal Government. There are only a few areas we (long time players) are requesting be jiggled in this tree. For instance we know INT/CHA for hit only is a new player trap and needs to be changed to damage. Plus, it's nothing unlike what plenty of other classes have; if it isn't added now, it never will be. Otherwise we are reporting our feedback from Lamaland on what actually works and needs improvement compared to the rest of the class powerbase. Time has shown again and again Dev playtesting has very little to do with the reality of actually playing DDO. Anything requested here so far is not going to turn EK into a FOtM build by any means.
....

This bolded section is the best example of how long-time players help new players. This is something you can only really know once you've played the game. Thank you for articulating this point. Plus, the flavor-of-the-month builds come and go, and most of the aforementioned requested changes won't make the tree OP.

(Perhaps down the line, the game will shift towards an accuracy-focused combat system which makes us actually whiff more often. As it stands, INT/CHA to damage is 1,000% more valuable.)

[cru121]

Add to Fatesinger ED or even Swashbuckler Resonant Arms:
Toggle: Your Spellsword ability now deals sonic damage.

[Zites]

This video reflects my experience testing EK.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/336293684
When watching the video did you notice the lack of survivability, melee damge and where all the Dmg was coming from? The spells.

As a wizard EK you lack Spell Dmg., Melee Dmg. and survivability, the best Wiz EK is DC EK but you will still B way behind compared to other DC casters, If you want a tanky caster go warlock much better butter.

As a Sorc EK you do more better Spell Dmg. but less then other Sorc's because it's the new spells that do a lot of Dmg not anything from EK.

[HuneyMunster]

Merge Battlemage with another T1 core and add Brute/Subtle Spellcasting/Fighting. Or make Battlemage a multi sector that gives +1/+2/+3 Concentration, Intimidate or Diplomacy, and Spellcraft depending of whether you take Brute or Subtle.

From what Ive seen with intimidate tanking is issue with monsters that are immune to intimidate. This would open up more builds for building hate tanks while still having Subtle for EK's that do not want to be high in threat.

[Emerge2012]

The bolt spells and single target nuke upgrades won't keep pace with the magical damage (much less the physical damage) weapons combat would provide. The 9th level spells might, but they're out of range for any Bard multi-class with Sorcerer. Casting a single target damage spell would be a loss of dps except in rare circumstances (certain strange leveling breakpoints, etc.) Keep in mind that a build like Bard S&B attacks ~4 times per second at max level.

Casting an AE spell would be useful. However, the lack of a viable arcane caster melee Destiny means that any build emphasizing AE spell damage + melee combat would have to pick one or the other in Epic levels.

That leaves CC spells. Since Bards already get all of the Enchantment-based CC Sorcerers do and get Soundburst on top of that, the added benefit of Sorcerer levels would be primarily confined to oddities like Halt Undead and Sleet Storm that aren't subject to SR and can be acquired at relatively low levels.

You also have to ask: why take Sorcerer levels when you already have Bard ones? Virtually everything EK offers is something Bards can already do from their own native abilities or trees - yet rarely do. It would take a lot less effort to boost +hit by taking a first tier Warchanter ability than it would to invest 3+ levels in Sorcerer, yet Bards don't do that. It would take a lot less effort to grab their own spellpower-scaling Sonic damage ability from Swashbuckler, but Bards don't do that. Bards can already cast 90% of the useful CC of a Sorcerer, often with better DC. In essence, the biggest problem with Eldritch Knight is that it already exists and is called a 'Bard'.


Why would you go any bard at all when the nukes are very strong? DPS numbers show that savant sorcs can reach the better part of 20k - which is significantly higher than any bard based build. Also, don't forget about Fatesinger, the destiny that gives a flat 60 melee power, nice stat bumps, 5 arcane caster levels, and a great boss debuff that adds a unique form of vulnerable for the entire party to exploit. Pretty sure bards don't get Mass Hold Monster unless they take the SLA from tier 5 spellsinger, so no, a bard split would not get the same CC. I do agree that bard by itself is a better 'spellsword' though - and this is the recurring theme here.


I'm not sure about 'awful'. Tearing up a mob with EK-backed melee damage is likely to be a lot more effective than casting damage spells at it.

EK adds very little damage to what is already a low damage build. You simply can't gear for high spellpower and correctly gear for melee - one of them has to be neutered and the EK imbues are weak to begin with.


I don't agree with the 'destroying' notion for two reasons:

1. No one is actually going to take the tree that high once the luster of 'new tree' wears off. The third core is about the limit of what I'd invest on virtually any practical build.

2. It doesn't change the area of spells. So you still get full 'range' from lines and cones. Since all of your single target (and a significant chunk of your AE) damage is melee range anyway, I don't see much of a drawback in most cases.

But that IS agreeing. When you have to pretend being face to face with mobs/bosses is acceptable for DPS spellcasting then you know you're trying too hard to argue for something that can't be argued for. Always going to be better off nuking from distance.

You're #1 reason is the important one however. Not so much the reason I guess but the outcome. You're right, nobody is going to invest in this tree. And the reason is because it's just simply bad, still the worst in the game, and this is exactly what I said initially so you could've just agreed and been done with it. At the end of the day EK is just flavor for newer players.

[capsela]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

I vote get rid of the knockdown entirely and boost spellpower, crit multipler, "arcane warrior" time length, or some other passive. EK doesn't need more CC. It's a waste, a lvl 20 arcane has plenty of CC already. A tier 5 should be special and offer something unique to a build.

[capsela]

Why would you go any bard at all when the nukes are very strong? DPS numbers show that savant sorcs can reach the better part of 20k - which is significantly higher than any bard based build. Also, don't forget about Fatesinger, the destiny that gives a flat 60 melee power, nice stat bumps, 5 arcane caster levels, and a great boss debuff that adds a unique form of vulnerable for the entire party to exploit. Pretty sure bards don't get Mass Hold Monster unless they take the SLA from tier 5 spellsinger, so no, a bard split would not get the same CC. I do agree that bard by itself is a better 'spellsword' though - and this is the recurring theme here.



EK adds very little damage to what is already a low damage build. You simply can't gear for high spellpower and correctly gear for melee - one of them has to be neutered and the EK imbues are weak to begin with.



But that IS agreeing. When you have to pretend being face to face with mobs/bosses is acceptable for DPS spellcasting then you know you're trying too hard to argue for something that can't be argued for. Always going to be better off nuking from distance.

You're #1 reason is the important one however. Not so much the reason I guess but the outcome. You're right, nobody is going to invest in this tree. And the reason is because it's just simply bad, still the worst in the game, and this is exactly what I said initially so you could've just agreed and been done with it. At the end of the day EK is just flavor for newer players.

I couldn't agree more. It was a trap. It's still a new player trap and it's adding more micro managing in the arcane warrior buffs and mandatory cleaves to a class that already has too many buttons to push There are too many cooldowns to manage. The tree needs more passives, not more activatable short term buffs.

Speaking of cooldowns, what's the point in zero range spells and cool downs? If you can't cast at range all your cooldowns are expended at once, once you close to melee, and that kinda ruins the whole point of cooldowns doesn't it? If you can cast at range and then by the time you are in melee they are up again it makes them what? 100% more useful at the very least.

Please stop with the short term activatables in our trees, stop the madness! I hate them. Casters have these already they are called spells. Arcanes don't have enough hotbar room as it is. And this is another reason why the Harper's tree is superior.

Also why is Harpers the only tree (in all of DDO?) with free metamagics? And it has not one free metamagic but two. Why only there? And why not quicken the best metamagic and most required metamagic in the game.

Martial, simple, shield proficiency is wasted in this tree too. We have a spell for that it's called master's touch and it does tower shields and it's permanent and it's persistent even if you change weapons.

This tree defines how you will play your character. You'll play it this way or nothing. You'll take this feat because you have to. You'll cast a spell now, because you have to. You will swing your sword because you have to. You will run into melee range because you have to. You will not heal your teammates because you can't toggle in time and they will die.

And another vote for cha/int to dmg, and lose the to hit bonus but I don't think there is a single person who disagrees with that. It's kind of a no brainer. Here's an idea, you tell players that if they buy Harper's and it magically adds int to dmg to your EK tree for free zero AP cost. There now devs you've killed 2 birds with one stone and boosted your sales.

[CeltEireson]

True, but one has to dump 12 APs in another tree and Bards get their stat to damage without the (rather) meaningless bonus to hit.

AND, if you do spend the 12 APs in Harper, you are spending for INT to hit as well as a prereq. Yet another reason why nobody is gonna buy this in EK.

Not as if those 12 APs are entirely wasted - if you're int based know the angles will boost your damage and any tactical feats you may have chose, +1 your int, +15 hitpoints, +1 enhancement to weapon and +20 spellpoints - well that's actually 13 - but still wouldn't say those were wasted points.

And you don't actually have to take the int to hit enhancement in Harper's to qualify for int to damage.

[CeltEireson]

Exactly zero sorcs and zero wizards are going to waste 3 feats for this so called benefit! So really this asf is for ppl splashing wiz or sorc! Since when are benefits on a tree just made for splashers? Also this tree is railroading us to take fighting feats through edf. My ek wasn't going to take any but I don't have a choice i see now!


Well a few examples of benefits on a tree for multiclass - kensai has benefits for monk/fighters, swashbuckler has enhancement for mixing artificers/bard (Cannoneer, allows use of runearms while swashbuckling), racial arcane archer, you could say most of the harper and falconry trees.

[Duhboy]

What's the point of playing an Eldritch Knight with these U41 changes? Your spells are limited to touch range, you can't get hit and damage with your casting stat, lacking defense, etc when you can roll up a Cleric or Favored Soul and use your casting stat as hit and damage (Falconry & Class feature respectively), getting your critical threat range and multiplier and to be able to cast spells without having them at touch range as well as having a full BAB through Warpriest/War Soul. You can even splash 3 levels of Fighter or Paladin (whichever you prefer) and get your HP boost without sacrificing your casting range.

Also the "Every point spend in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you +0.5 Universal Spell Power." was removed.

[Sho-sa]

Not as if those 12 APs are entirely wasted - if you're int based know the angles will boost your damage and any tactical feats you may have chose, +1 your int, +15 hitpoints, +1 enhancement to weapon and +20 spellpoints - well that's actually 13 - but still wouldn't say those were wasted points.

And you don't actually have to take the int to hit enhancement in Harper's to qualify for int to damage.


Sotto voce, "Still does nothing for sorcerers...…."




OK, if you want to argue that point. Sure. You get something for it. However, that is NOT the point I and everyone else here who supports stat to damage is making.


The tree is weak.


This improves, but nowhere near enough; AND has some cleverly disguised traps hidden within.


I'm not denying that KtA is pretty neat with 1.5 dam however, it is yet another button to mash. This tree as written is too full of button mashing to actually work in game. Therefore some of whatever anyone thinks is cool just simply will not be playable. Given the limitations of lag, Quick Draw nerf, spell and weapon animations, and so on.


Stat to hit AND dam should flow within the improved tree without having to spend over ten points outside your class trees to be anywhere near viable. The playtest reports from Lamaland (for the few hours it actually was up) are NOT encouraging.


We all have the goal of getting this right the first time, because goodness knows this is never going to be looked at again. The Devs don't play this game. WE do. Our common effort is to convince them to deal with reality, do what is best for vets and new players, and not what they THINK will be cool.

[Dreppo]

AND, if you do spend the 12 APs in Harper, you are spending for INT to hit as well as a prereq. Yet another reason why nobody is gonna buy this in EK.

Harper's Strategic Combat I is not a prereq for Strategic Combat II. You can skip Strategic Combat I entirely and spend those 2 AP on something else on the way to Strategic Combat II.

[Jetrule]

I have played a gnome and deep gnome fighter wiz splash to level 30 int to hit and damage from harper and color spray spamming for cc I am interested in trying it out as a EK with 20 or 12 wiz levels the additional elemental imbue seems like it would make the build I ran very competitive dps. It wasn't garbage dps as a 18 fighter 1 wiz 1 warlock. swf with a mist orb. The best route for a wiz seems to me to go cc focused with casting and main dps with a weapon running LD or SD. They would have the feats to get full benefit from epic defensive fighting and have some nukes for the boss fight. at least arcane pulse to keep up the bonuses.

Im stretching my imagination trying to think of a comparable sorc build dps wise. A sorc would have to be magic damage focused using mele to charge up spell damage and mostly relying on caster dps. Probably pure sorc to break a elemental damage immunity and having a main tree as a savant probably air. So lets say a blue dragon sorc with heroic feats of empower maximize, evo focus, quicken and the two shield mastery feats. the gearing would be easier focusing on 1 main spell power and 1 school evo. Greater shout for main cc, BoGW and EA sound burst which works good now. Maybe run in draconic, take scion of air, use the electrocution sentient set? You would have to stay close to enemies though so maybe run in Crusader or even US and twist energy burst?

It seems like it could out dps a current savant pure sorc build. The sword would be secondary dps for conserving spell points on long quests or big boss beatings. With more damage coming from electricity than physical on the weapon strikes even with a good dps weapon like a strahd rapier or something. So it could be ok hitting with a caster stick. Over all though it seems like too big a trade off to give up ranged casting for what looks like not alot of benefit. A sorc in search of dps is probably better off going heavy savant and dragonborn and focusing on good old ranged cc insta kills and caster dps with the new spell upgrades.

[Rull]

You'll probably notice that the cast range restrictions while Knight's Transformation is active are very similar to Epic Defensive Fighting. With the tree's focus on wading into melee range for combat, this is a tree where offensive spellcasting range can afford to be close-quarters; for that tradeoff, the Eldritch Knight gets a big boost to spellcasting AND weapon combat. If you have both this and Epic Defensive Fighting toggled on in the Epic levels, you do not suffer a further penalty to casting range, so they synergize well.

I don't see the big boost to weapon combat. A bit more hit chance is nice, but it's not like a swashbuckling stance were you gain a big damage boost for restricting yourself, and I think it should feel like that.

[Rull]

I like leaving out int/cha to damage. It is quite strong and I'd rather see something else of that power level here (but I don't really see it).
Just a little extra in the melee department would be nice

(also, can you make Eldritch Accuracy an INT/CHA/CON multiselector instead of just INT/CHA? It feels fitting and would open some exotic paths.)

[capsela]

Description doesn't mention that charges for the epic moment decay!

So in order to use your main ability you have to be engaged in melee for minimum 12x5 sec with no pauses in between! on a toon that is squishy inherently. This ain't a tank!

And not only that! The more successful you are at killing enemies the less you get to use your epic moment because you won't have any charges! This tree penalizes you quickly killing mobs! Quite possibly the worst core six for any tree!

Why not make a mini version of masters blitz for the tree if you want to go this route? Blitz at least makes sense and doesn't penalize you for success!

[btolson]

I'm not really seeing this as compelling.


Alternating casting and meleeing for meager 12 second buffs. And SLAs don't count, which means you're either using un-meta'd spells (poor damage, strong chance of not being worth breaking your attack chain) or burning pots really fast.

Maybe if maximize, empower, quicken are free while KT is active? Or have your melee attacks have a chance to proc: "your next evo/conj spell costs 0 sp". Otherwise I don't see sustainability, and you're just going to be a weak, fragile melee with an empty blue bar a lot of the time.

Also, KT should just give +20% max HP. Cut out the middle man and a second stance activation time. It's not like wizards have huge HP pools in heroic, a melee centric one shouldn't have to wait until 21 to get that. Heck, you could argue a pure 20 wiz should get +40% hp. So maybe 20% at t4, improved to 30% t5, and 40% from capstone?

[HuneyMunster]

Also, KT should just give +20% max HP. Cut out the middle man and a second stance activation time. It's not like wizards have huge HP pools in heroic, a melee centric one shouldn't have to wait until 21 to get that. Heck, you could argue a pure 20 wiz should get +40% hp. So maybe 20% at t4, improved to 30% t5, and 40% from capstone?

I don't feel it should go up that high when you compare it to Sacred Defence, Stalwart Defence and Paragon Body 20%. Though Paragon Body is classed as racial bonus and stacks with both Sacred and Stalwart. A smaller 20% Arcane bonus would be interesting on a tanking point of view.

[CeltEireson]

I'm not really seeing this as compelling.


Alternating casting and meleeing for meager 12 second buffs. And SLAs don't count, which means you're either using un-meta'd spells (poor damage, strong chance of not being worth breaking your attack chain) or burning pots really fast.

Maybe if maximize, empower, quicken are free while KT is active? Or have your melee attacks have a chance to proc: "your next evo/conj spell costs 0 sp". Otherwise I don't see sustainability, and you're just going to be a weak, fragile melee with an empty blue bar a lot of the time.

Also, KT should just give +20% max HP. Cut out the middle man and a second stance activation time. It's not like wizards have huge HP pools in heroic, a melee centric one shouldn't have to wait until 21 to get that. Heck, you could argue a pure 20 wiz should get +40% hp. So maybe 20% at t4, improved to 30% t5, and 40% from capstone?

Difference in base hitpoints from class is not that great these days compared to overall hitpoints - most of your hitpoints in later levels come from large constitution bonuses, hitpoints items and enhancements/epic destinies - with 40% bonus you'd end up with more hitpoints than monk, rogue, cleric etc who would likely be a bit miffed. You get 60 hitpoints from these cores as well as +2 con, another +15 from toughness enhancement, if you're a wizard you can pick up another 30 from palemaster, for a total of 125 extra hitpoints at level 20.

[capsela]

Difference in base hitpoints from class is not that great these days compared to overall hitpoints - most of your hitpoints in later levels come from large constitution bonuses, hitpoints items and enhancements/epic destinies - with 40% bonus you'd end up with more hitpoints than monk, rogue, cleric etc who would likely be a bit miffed. You get 60 hitpoints from these cores as well as +2 con, another +15 from toughness enhancement, if you're a wizard you can pick up another 30 from palemaster, for a total of 125 extra hitpoints at level 20.

You don't see any other classes in this thread arguing about how overpowered this new EK is. The lack of it should be a signal for the developers.

[Duhboy]

Why not just add a 20% HP boost at the capstone while EK stance is active and get rid of the spellcasting range reduction? Warlock Enlightened Spirit capstone gives a 20% HP boost while it's stance is active that doesn't effect their spellcasting range. So why shouldn't EK's?

[Xgya]

Difference in base hitpoints from class is not that great these days compared to overall hitpoints - most of your hitpoints in later levels come from large constitution bonuses, hitpoints items and enhancements/epic destinies - with 40% bonus you'd end up with more hitpoints than monk, rogue, cleric etc who would likely be a bit miffed. You get 60 hitpoints from these cores as well as +2 con, another +15 from toughness enhancement, if you're a wizard you can pick up another 30 from palemaster, for a total of 125 extra hitpoints at level 20.

The difference between the base HP of a Barbarian and a Wizard (both extremes of the spectrum) at level 20 is 160 HP.
The difference between Wizard and Ranger (which is what a melee Wizard should be compared to - a melee striker) would be 80.

Both of those before enhancements.
Getting 60 extra HP from the cores on a gish build should be more than enough to compensate for having access to spells, although I'm a bit iffy about their survivability beyond being able to CC mobs before heading into melee.

[Darkrunn]

Obviously the goal of this enhancement is to encourage EKs to get up close and personal, but it goes about it in the wrong way.
How about instead of removing the option of using ranged spells, you reward them for using touch ranged ones?


Knight's Transformation: Toggle:
While this ability is active your melee attacks generate stacks of Arcane Charge (max 1 per second). Upon next touch-ranged spell cast, all charges are consumed. Maximum of 15 stacks. For each stack of Arcane Charge consumed, your next touch-ranged spell gains +3 spellpower, 1% spell critical chance, and its spell point cost is reduced by 1/3 of the charges used.
Passive: +20 universal spellpower. You have the BAB of a fighter.

I'm sure the numbers need tweaked, but I feel that having a spellpower boost that happens, at most, every 15 seconds isn't too egregious, especially when its limited to a touch range spell, and the spell point reduction further encourages player's to get in there and smack the baddies before weaving in a spell, while simultaneously helping with the EK's spellpoint consumption. The +20 usp helps to soften out the curve between building up the charges, though that may be too strong.

If that seems too strong still, perhaps you can add this:
Passive: All spells that are not touch-ranged have their cooldown doubled while Knight's Transformation is active. (Improved version could lower this to 1.5)



Improved Knight's Transformation feels like it could do one of two things: enhance your spellsword abilities, or give your melee a buff based off your spell usage.
The former could work something like this:

Improved Knight's Transformation: While you have Knight's Transformation active, your spellsword weapons have a chance of becoming more volatile.
On a vorpal roll your weapon unleashes the ferocity of your current element:
Flaming: You unleash a conflagration centered on you, all enemies in a small area around you must succeed on a reflex saving throw or take your Spellsword dice in fire damage each second, for the next (2/3) seconds. (High damage potential, but no cc)
Frost: You fill the air with biting cold, all enemies take your spellsword dice in cold damage and must succeed on a fortitude saving throw or be slowed by 50% for 5 seconds.
Shock: Lightning leaps from your weapon, then from target to target (max 6? targets), dealing your spellsword dice in damage and causing a daze effect (as in electric loop) on a failed will save.
Acid:You spray a caustic solution about your enemies, causing your spellsword dice in damage and lowering enemy AC by 5% for 10 seconds. (Have no idea if this is good or not)

These seem kind of strong to me, but they also seem interesting.



The latter could be:

Improved Knight's Transformation: After using a touch-based spell, you gain 1% doublestrike and 1% melee power for each stack of Arcane Charge consumed by the spell for the next 10 seconds. During this time, you also deal +1 spellsword dice.

This method feels like it fits in well, and encourages players to use touch based spells, and melee attacks, without completely preventing them from using ranged spells.



I also feel that radiant force field is quite boring, thematically, but is a decent option for the more defensively-minded EKs, but I feel there could be a multi-selector here that allows for a more aggressive approach (or perhaps, a quick retreat).

Arcane Charge You transform into your currently chosen element, dashing forward and passing through enemies while dealing your spellsword dice in damage. (Activation Cost: 15 spell points. Cooldown: 25 seconds)

[btolson]

Difference in base hitpoints from class is not that great these days compared to overall hitpoints - most of your hitpoints in later levels come from large constitution bonuses, hitpoints items and enhancements/epic destinies - with 40% bonus you'd end up with more hitpoints than monk, rogue, cleric etc who would likely be a bit miffed. You get 60 hitpoints from these cores as well as +2 con, another +15 from toughness enhancement, if you're a wizard you can pick up another 30 from palemaster, for a total of 125 extra hitpoints at level 20.

Monk, rogue and ranger get evasion. An MC'd EK could get it too, but then he wouldn't qualify for 40% in the capstone.

[Kotharsjach]

I vote get rid of the knockdown entirely and boost spellpower, crit multipler, "arcane warrior" time length, or some other passive. EK doesn't need more CC. It's a waste, a lvl 20 arcane has plenty of CC already. A tier 5 should be special and offer something unique to a build.

let me echo this. I've played melee/caster hybrid builds mostly wizard for 40+ lives. Currently I usually spend 0 ap in EK becuase it's really just that bad, but I really like alot of the proposed changes and the nature of those changed. I've messed around with eldritch tempest quite a bit and if it remains the same it is truly a trash ability. Out of around 5 or 6 CC options dire charge is typically my worst one, and eldritch tempest is so far below that that as a CC option it is truly non-existent. I actually usually get FAR more cc from balanced attacks over 30 seconds than I would from eldritch tempest and it is no-save knockdown. Eldritch strike starts off as decent but by the time you get to epic it is so subpar it's not worth keeping up with the 12 second cooldown.

My suggestion would be to give eldritch strike a 6 second cooldown and make it exclusive with cleave with 10 power charges triggering eldritch power. For eldritch tempest a 10 or 12 second cooldown would be appropriate and fit in comfortable with most aoe rotations. Nuke the spell point cost from orbit, 0 would be preferable. For the no save knock down remove it entirely if it's a concern or change it to a tactics dc. To reiterate, the cc portion of tempest is not the reason anyone would take this ability. If it has more than a 15 second cooldown, IMHO it's not even worth spending AP on EVEN if your spend AP on the other T5 EK abilities.

Ek is not going to scale well into epics and especially cap. This is becuase crit, both on spells and on weapon scales up so high at high levels. If the idea is a build that chains spell casting and weapon attacks in a fluid combat style, EKs are not even going to be in the ballpark with their counterparts if they are trying to do both.

Firstly give EKs Int/cha to attack AND damage, this is just to give them a decent baseline, otherwise you are forcing harper and to a lesser extent, wizard. Note that with know the angles Harper is still better for weapon damage.

Secondly make all spell sword and eldritch cleaves scale with spell power AND spell crit. If you feel this is too strong, drop the crit range and multiplier from knight's transformation, although spellsword/eldritch cleaves scale so much with wiz/sorc level I have a hard time seeing this being abused. At cap spell crit factors are going to be huge in bringing a EK up to par and allows them to focus on spell power/crit while maintaining a weapon/DPS spellcasting combat style. To maintain a decent weapon damage profile in epics all of the factors involved include attack, damage, melee power, crit profile, crit multiplier, armor pen, sneak attack, seeker, and attack speed, as well as a narrow range of Epic destinies that vastly affect performance. It is virtually impossible to bring these up to par while also considering defenses, spell power, spell crit, and any kind of decent spell dc.

I cannot stress enough the importance of adding spell crit factors to spellsword/eldritch cleaves to give them a decent baseline, viable epic destiny options, and workable gearing options. Best of all this gives them a scaling boost as they need it, when they need it the most - late game. Again, I have a hard time seeing this being abused since spellsword/eldritch cleaves scale so much with wizard/sorc level and spell casting gear.

[CeltEireson]

The difference between the base HP of a Barbarian and a Wizard (both extremes of the spectrum) at level 20 is 160 HP.
The difference between Wizard and Ranger (which is what a melee Wizard should be compared to - a melee striker) would be 80.

Both of those before enhancements.
Getting 60 extra HP from the cores on a gish build should be more than enough to compensate for having access to spells, although I'm a bit iffy about their survivability beyond being able to CC mobs before heading into melee.

Do think they need an increase in PRR, through cores would be best, if youre opting to use medium armour then dodge is going to be comparatively low given that there are no options in this tree to increase the max dex bonus of the armour - though they could add that as well. Main issue for non-warforged and non-palemaster mages is that there's no self healing available for them, and theres no healing amp in the tree to improve whatever healing they do use. Usually mages rely on keeping at a distance so they don't need healing as much - but not an option in this tree.

Would have thought a warforged with adamantine body would have worked okay using the enchantment route - no ASF from the cores, improved prr from adamantine body, additional hitpoints, DR, and both spellpower/melee power available from the racial tree, and of course good self healing, run in, cast mass hold and melee away. But the problem is getting both enchantment levels high enough to work reliably and melee damage high enough to take out the mobs before they break free, and of course survive attacks from those the hold didn't work on.

If you're meleeing all the time and casting whilst in the middle of a fight you basically need quicken on all the time, so free quicken (or substantially reduced cost) whilst in knight mode would be good otherwise youll burn through spellpoints faster, although if you're doing a fair bit of your damage through melee you may not need as many spellpoints.

Speaking of PRR - wonder if the increase to BAB in knights transformation is applied when working out the PRR you get from armour?

Assuming they intend for mages to rely mostly on the damage from eldritch strike / spellsword to boost their melee damage I wouldn't mind see a boost in the level core 5 to improve the eldritch strike, either reducing cooldown or allowing it to scale with some proportion of spellpower, assuming it doesn't now.

[Kotharsjach]

Do think they need an increase in PRR, through cores would be best, if youre opting to use medium armour then dodge is going to be comparatively low given that there are no options in this tree to increase the max dex bonus of the armour - though they could add that as well. Main issue for non-warforged and non-palemaster mages is that there's no self healing available for them, and theres no healing amp in the tree to improve whatever healing they do use. Usually mages rely on keeping at a distance so they don't need healing as much - but not an option in this tree.

Would have thought a warforged with adamantine body would have worked okay using the enchantment route - no ASF from the cores, improved prr from adamantine body, additional hitpoints, DR, and both spellpower/melee power available from the racial tree, and of course good self healing, run in, cast mass hold and melee away. But the problem is getting both enchantment levels high enough to work reliably and melee damage high enough to take out the mobs before they break free, and of course survive attacks from those the hold didn't work on.

If you're meleeing all the time and casting whilst in the middle of a fight you basically need quicken on all the time, so free quicken (or substantially reduced cost) whilst in knight mode would be good otherwise youll burn through spellpoints faster, although if you're doing a fair bit of your damage through melee you may not need as many spellpoints.

Speaking of PRR - wonder if the increase to BAB in knights transformation is applied when working out the PRR you get from armour?

Assuming they intend for mages to rely mostly on the damage from eldritch strike / spellsword to boost their melee damage I wouldn't mind see a boost in the level core 5 to improve the eldritch strike, either reducing cooldown or allowing it to scale with some proportion of spellpower, assuming it doesn't now.

Currently spell sword doesn't scale with anything. Eldritch strike/tempest force damage scales with spellpower, can't recall if this extra damage can crit or not. Tensor's BAB does affect PRR so it would be strange if knights transformation didn't. I don't see self healing as needing to be inherent in any arcane enhancement line, although enlightened spirit does certainly provide it and toughness in stark contrast to EK. I could see a wraith build PM/EK as being fairly tough for sure, the problem there is if your forced to put 12 ap into harper and archmage is the DC/Spell damage tree, there just isn't enough action points.

[Zites]

Hello Team I and many more would really like to enjoy Eldritch Knight and have consider your first offering.
Please consider a few of our suggestions. Thank You.


Core 1: Eldritch Strike: Melee Cleave Attack. +1[w]. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional Please consider (2 to 3 Force Damage) per character level to all nearby foes.
(Activation Cost: 0 SP ) Cooldown: 12 seconds Please consider Every Additional Core Ability in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you Cooldown: reduction of 1 second
(7 seconds)

You gain proficiency with Simple Weapons
Every Core Ability in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you Please consider survivability (+20 Max HP)




Core 2: Spellsword (you get all four of the following toggles, 5SP to activate). Passive: +1% doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power. You gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial Weapons.

Corrosive: Charge your equipped weapon with magical Acid, causing them to deal an addtional 1d6 (element) damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 (wizard/sorcerer) levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18). This damage scales with Acid Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional Acid damage per Character Level which scales with Acid Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch.
Flaming: As above, with fire
Frost: As above, with cold
Shock: As above, with electric




Core 3: Melee weapons are considered Spellcasting Implements in your hands. You gain the Quick Draw feat.

-15% Arcane Spell Failure from equipped Armor and Shields
+1% doublestrike
+10 Universal spellpower




Core 4: Subtle Force: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds.

-20% Arcane Spell Failure from equipped Armor and Shields
+6 Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, and Sonic
+10 Universal spellpower




Core 5: Subtle Force II: +5% Stacking Incorporeality. Your Deflect Arrows now triggers every 2 seconds.

Multiselctor: +2% doublestrike
EK Armor Mastery:+3 maximum dexterity bonus
OR
Please consider increasing damage (+10 melee power and +10 Universal Spell Power.)
Please consider survivability (+10 Healing or Repair Amplification)




Core 6: Eldritch Blade:



Your Eldritch Strike now grants you a Power Charge. When you have 5 Power Charges, they are removed, and you gain Eldritch Power. Eldritch Power: +10% melee damage, +4d6 Spellsword Dice, +3d4 Force Damage on Hit (this scales with Force spell power), +25 Universal spellpower, Please consider Survivability (+30 PRR,) +40 MRR. Duration 30 seconds.
Passive:

Please consider increasing melee damage here (+2 Spellsword Die)
+2 (Intelligence/Charisma), +2 Constitution
Multiselctor: Please consider increasing (+10 melee power and +30 Universal spellpower)Please consider survivability and (+30 Healing or Repair Amplification)
OR
Please consider Wizard (-3 SP Cost to All spells.)
Please consider Sorcerer (Charisma to hit.)




Tier 1:


Improved Mage Armor: (unchanged) Spell Like Ability: Mage Armor. (Activation Cost: 8/6/4 Spell Points). In addition, while you are under the effect of the Mage Armor spell, you gain a +3%/+6%/+10% Exceptional Bonus to Armor Class.
Arcane Siphon: Melee Attack:+1/2/3[w]. On hit: Gain +10/20/30 Universal Spell Power for 20 seconds. 12 second cooldown.
Item Defense (unchanged) You have a 25%/50%/75% chance to negate potential item wear.
Toughness (unchanged) +5/10/15 Max HP
Battlemage (unchanged) +1/+2/+3 Concentration, Intimidate, and Spellcraft.

Tier 2:


Improved Shield: Spell Like Ability: Shield (Activation Cost: 8/6/4 Spell points). In addition, while you are under the effect of the Shield spell, you gain +3/+6/+10 Exceptional Bonus to Physical Resistance Rating.
Mystic Wards: +3/6/10 MRR.
Action Boost: Spell Power: Activate to gain a +10/+20/+30 Action Boost bonus to Spell Power for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
Shield Training: (unchanged) Passive: You gain proficiency with all shields except Tower Shields, and your Arcane Spell Failure chance from equipped shields is reduced by 5%.
Wand & Scroll Mastery (unchanged) +25%/+50%/+75% effectiveness from your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells, and +1/+2/+3 to the save DC of your offensive wands. Taking Wand and Scroll Mastery in one enhancement tree will block its availability in other enhancement trees.

Tier 3:


Arcane Barrier: (Now 1 Rank): Passive: When your HP drop below 50% of maximum, you are immediately protected by an Arcane Barrier that reduces all incoming damage by 25% for the next 20 seconds. This effect may only trigger once every 90 seconds.
Eldritch Accuracy: You get (INT/CHA) to hit with weapons and shield bashes.



Synergetic Magic: While you have Action Boost: Spell Power active, you also get the benefits of Action Boost: Power (+10/20/30 Action Boost bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power for 20 seconds.)
Critical Mastery: +1/2/3 to confirm critical hits and critical hit damage (before weapon multipliers)
Ability Score Multiselctor (unchanged) +1 STR/DEX/(INT or CHA)

Tier 4:


Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range. You cannot enable the Enlarge Metamagic while this is active. You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage. Your Base Attack Bonus equals your Character Level.



Improved Offhand: Multiselector:

Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the enhancement bonus of your equipped shield.
Orb Saves: +1/2/3 to saving throws and +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power while holding an Orb


Force's Point: When you cast a spell, you gain a stack of Force's Point: Martial (+1 to Hit and Damage). This stacks up to 5 times. When you hit with a melee weapon, you gain a stack of Force's Point: Magical (+2 Universal Spell Power). This stacks up to 10 times. Stacks last for 12 seconds each. You may only gain each effect once per second.
Armored Arcana: You gain proficiency in Medium Armor, and suffer no Arcane Spell Failure from Light or Medium Armor
Ability Score Multiselctor (unchanged) +1 STR/DEX/(INT or CHA)

Tier 5:


Improved Knight's Transformation: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with Melee Weapons
Please consider increasing melee damage here
(+10 melee power or Universal Spell Power.)
Knight's Magic: Multiselector:

Knight Striker: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +2 to Evocation DCs, +2 to Conjuration DCs.
Knight Controller: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +2 to Enchantment DCs, +4 Spell Penetration.


Force's Edge:When you cast a spell,you gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range for Please consider increasing duration (20 seconds.)
When you make a Melee Attack, you gain +5% Spell Critical Chance for (20 seconds.)
Radiant Forcefield: Spell Like Ability: Radiant Forcefield (Activation Cost: 30 Spell Points. Cooldown: 3 minutes.)



Eldritch Tempest: Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +5[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 1 second. (Activation Cost: 50/40/30 Spell points. Cooldown: 60/45/30 seconds) If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional Please consider increasing (1d8 Force damage) per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. (now 1AP per rank)

[capsela]

Please drop tempest and eldritch stike and replace with masters blitz, but cut benefits from blitz by 75%. That would be fair and it's a mechanic that everyone loves. Force's edge needs longer time or just get rid of it too. Make metas free or lower spell casting costs, force's edge is going to drain our blue bar fast and then it's worthless. Or you are casting MM for zero damage for "reasons".

[Duhboy]

Core 1: Eldritch Strike: Melee Cleave Attack. +1[w]. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes.(Activation Cost: 0 SP Cooldown: 12 seconds)
You gain proficiency with Simple Weapons
Every point in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you +1 to Universal Spell Power.



Core 2: Spellsword (you get all four of the following toggles, 5SP to activate). Passive: +1% doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power. You gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial Weapons.
Corrosive: Charge your equipped weapon with magical Acid, causing them to deal an addtional 1d6 (element) damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 (wizard/sorcerer) levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18). This damage scales with Acid Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional Acid damage per Character Level which scales with Acid Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch.
Flaming: As above, with fire
Frost: As above, with cold
Shock: As above, with electric



Core 3: Melee weapons are considered Spellcasting Implements in your hands. You gain the Quick Draw feat.
-15% Arcane Spell Failure from equipped Armor and Shields
+1% doublestrike
+10 Universal spellpower



Core 4: Subtle Force: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds.
-20% Arcane Spell Failure from equipped Armor and Shields
+6 Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, and Sonic
+10 Universal spellpower



Core 5: Subtle Force II: +5% Stacking Incorporeality. Your Deflect Arrows now triggers every 2 seconds.
+1% doublestrike
+10 Universal spellpower



Core 6: Eldritch Blade:
While Knight's Transformation is active you gain:
+20% Compentence Bonus to HP.
Your Eldritch Strike now grants you a Power Charge. When you have 5 Power Charges you gain Eldritch Power. Eldritch Power (clickie): +10% melee damage, +4d6 Spellsword Dice, +3d4 Force Damage on Hit (this scales with Force spell power), +25 Universal spellpower, +15 PRR, +40 MRR. Duration 30 seconds.
Passive:
+1 Spellsword Die
+2 (Intelligence/Charisma), +2 Constitution
+10 Universal spellpower
+10 Melee Power


Tier 1:

Improved Mage Armor: (unchanged) Spell Like Ability: Mage Armor. (Activation Cost: 8/6/4 Spell Points). In addition, while you are under the effect of the Mage Armor spell, you gain a +3%/+6%/+10% Exceptional Bonus to Armor Class.
Arcane Siphon: Melee Attack:+1/2/3[w]. On hit: Gain +10/20/30 Universal Spell Power for 20 seconds. 12 second cooldown.
Item Defense (unchanged) You have a 25%/50%/75% chance to negate potential item wear.
Toughness (unchanged) +5/10/15 Max HP
Battlemage (unchanged) +1/+2/+3 Concentration, Intimidate, and Spellcraft.


Tier 2:

Improved Shield: Spell Like Ability: Shield (Activation Cost: 8/6/4 Spell points). In addition, while you are under the effect of the Shield spell, you gain +3/+6/+10 Exceptional Bonus to Physical Resistance Rating.
Mystic Wards: +3/6/10 MRR.
Action Boost: Spell Power: Activate to gain a +10/+20/+30 Action Boost bonus to Spell Power for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
Shield Training: (unchanged) Passive: You gain proficiency with all shields except Tower Shields, and your Arcane Spell Failure chance from equipped shields is reduced by 5%.
Eldritch Accuracy: You get (INT/CHA) to hit with weapons and shield bashes.


Tier 3:

Arcane Barrier: Passive: When your HP drop below 50% of maximum, you are immediately protected by an Arcane Barrier that reduces all incoming damage by 25% for the next 20 seconds. This effect may only trigger once every 90 seconds.
Eldritch Damage: You get (INT/CHA) to damage with weapons and shield bashes.


Synergetic Magic: While you have Action Boost: Spell Power active, you also get the benefits of Action Boost: Power (+10/20/30 Action Boost bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power for 20 seconds.)
Critical Mastery: +1/2/3 to confirm critical hits and critical hit damage (before weapon multipliers)
Ability Score Multiselctor (unchanged) +1 STR/DEX/(INT or CHA)


Tier 4:

Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, You gain +15 PRR and MRR, +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage. Your Base Attack Bonus equals your Character Level.



Improved Offhand: Multiselector:
Shield Striking: On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield & +2%/+4%/+6% to combat attack speed while a shield is equipped. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to 5X enhancement bonus of your equipped shield. Doubled in Epic levels.
Orb Saves: +1/2/3 to saving throws and +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power & benefit from Single Weapon Fighting while wielding an orb.

Force's Point: When you cast a spell, you gain a stack of Force's Point: Martial (+1 to Hit and Damage). This stacks up to 5 times. When you hit with a melee weapon, you gain a stack of Force's Point: Magical (+2 Universal Spell Power). This stacks up to 10 times. Stacks last for 15 seconds each. You may only gain each effect once per second.
Armored Arcana: You gain proficiency in Medium Armor, and suffer no Arcane Spell Failure from Light or Medium Armor
Ability Score Multiselctor (unchanged) +1 STR/DEX/(INT or CHA)


Tier 5:

Improved Knight's Transformation: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you gain +10 Melee power, +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier and +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with Melee Weapons.
Knight's Magic: Multiselector:
Knight Striker: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +2 to Evocation DCs, +2 to Conjuration DCs, +10 Universal Spell Power, Spell Critical Chance +5%.
Knight Controller: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +4 to Enchantment DCs, +4 Spell Penetration.


Radiant Forcefield: Spell Like Ability: Radiant Forcefield (Activation Cost: 30 Spell Points. Cooldown: 3 minutes.)

Heavy Armored Arcana: You gain Proficiency in Heavy Armor.

Eldritch Tempest: Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +5[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone & helpless for 1 second. (Activation Cost: 50/40/30 Spell points. Cooldown: 60/45/30 seconds) If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 2d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. (now 1AP per rank)

[pjw]

The Harper tree offers more stat bonuses sooner (4 in total), INT to HIT and DAMAGE by tier 3, and Know the Angles (even more INT to Damage). OK, it's a paid-for tree, but for a tree designed to make a caster into a (somewhat) effective melee, this still seems to miss the mark.

Swashbuckler also offers INT/CHA to hit and Damage by tier 3 (and is not a P2W tree) and has some pretty solid bonus sonic damage enhancements low in the tree. The top of the tree offers a path to insta-kills that synergises with the class.

Overall, I'd probably change it as follows:

- INT/CHA to hit and damage by Tier 3
- Crit multiplier AND threat range improvements by Tier 4
- something in tier 5 that synergizes with DC casters as well as DPS casters (eg. +1 DC to spells AND +20 Spell Power, stacking up to 5 times, for using something on a 12 second cooldown; 1 stack removed every 20 seconds).
- something to enhance Orbs, eg. with Orb equipped you have +10/20/30 MRR and PRR OR get Parrying/Ripost/Guardbreaking OR something else...that makes them more useful in MELEE defence

As it is, a pure caster will be feat starved (esp. sorc) so will still have to multiclass, and then one asks why bother with this rather than one of the other melee-related trees. If a pure caster does use this tree then they will severely hobble their options in other trees; there needs to be more low-hanging fruit as in Swash or Harper...Swash gives bonus to Crit (threat and multiplier, possibly) as a Tier 1 Core!

[SpardaX]

Why aren’t more people outraged by this? Only a handful of people even mentioned it, this ruins so many builds that already exist, I’m trying really hard not to insult people but I’ve had enough, if they do this I’m done, 11 years and that would be the final straw, they’ve messed with my moose too many times, that’s one of the worst mechanics ever conceived and they’re gonna put it on Eldrich Knight. Who in their right mind would discourage ranged magical attack on an arcane warrior type character? What would be the point of playing that type of character? why not just play any other Melee character? My head is still exploding...


I will admit, I'm probably an outlier in this regard, but I'm not outraged for 2 reasons:

1: The tree in general is getting a buff, I'm sad that I'm losing permanent tensors but even without it, and without taking this toggle because I do think its pretty bad, I'll still come out stronger than I was before.

2: I probably will take the toggle anyway, because right now my main EK is a pure melee character, its an 18 wizard / 2 monk, I have the full TWF feat list going, have Epic Defensive Fighting going, and so I'm not going to see the downside of this anyway. I don't cast spells, I buff up at the start and go full monk. So the downside is non existent to me, and the upside is my Death Aura has another 4.2 hp x Negative Heal Amp per tick.
Not having permanent Tensors IS a 2ndary downside, but I can always cast the spell instead if I have to, so I'll live.

As to your question "Why not just play another Melee character?", well my 18 / 2 is currently my strongest melee character that I have. Isn't that sad? My wizard does better DPS and has better Survivability than my Fighter and my Barbarian and my Monk.

[SpardaX]

Exactly zero sorcs and zero wizards are going to waste 3 feats for this so called benefit! So really this asf is for ppl splashing wiz or sorc! Since when are benefits on a tree just made for splashers? Also this tree is railroading us to take fighting feats through edf. My ek wasn't going to take any but I don't have a choice i see now!

Most Trees have benefits for splashers.
Every update Iv ever seen where a tree gets added or tweaked, the devs are commenting on at least one or two abilities saying "This is here so this ability can make for an effective splash", or saying the opposite "We moved this to a higher tier because it was TOO effective as a splash."

You want an example? Kensei has an ability that centers characters using the weapon style. The lv 12 (I think) core in that tree also gives you +2 to Ki on hit.
How many pure fighters are there do you think, who are going to gain any benefit from either of those 2 facts?

I don't mean to be rude, or snarky, but things in trees specifically for splashes are actually pretty common if you look out for them. And usually (Especially in the case of the EK 35% armor reduction) it's not even in the road. Its in the core. It's just icing, you dont even need to waste points getting it for something higher up.

Also, as an aside, there is at least one reason to take this even as a pure character. I have a warforged build I know who's going to JUMP on that. Because it gives all warforged, and that includes pure Wizards and Sorcerers, a way to take their Adamantine Plating basically with no penalty. Which is just great.

[capsela]

Also, as an aside, there is at least one reason to take this even as a pure character. I have a warforged build I know who's going to JUMP on that. Because it gives all warforged, and that includes pure Wizards and Sorcerers, a way to take their Adamantine Plating basically with no penalty. Which is just great.

Since when are trees preferential to certain races? Wf get everything good in this game! Just like arcano techs +4 int capstone! Where is our +4 int? Vorpal just happens to benefit our chosen class the most.

[GramercyRiff]

Not being able to take martial feats because of awful Wiz/Sorc BaB is a massive oversight with this thing. EK's got full BaB from EK PrC (as well as other PrC's that granted full BaB) so BaB was never an issue in a game of Dungeons and Dragons. It's a pretty serious issue here. Yes, MC is a way to mitigate, but that's not good enough. You lose spell levels and spellcaster levels this way. Eldritch Knight has 9/10 casting and full BaB. Abjurant Champion gives full casting and full BaB. It wasn't hard to get 9th level spells while also having a good BaB.

Most of the tree is still not even close to good enough. Confirmed after testing. It's got to improve before it goes live.

[Vish]

I will build it
And it will be op
;)

Happy turkey day,
Turkeys!

[Kotharsjach]

I will admit, I'm probably an outlier in this regard, but I'm not outraged for 2 reasons:

1: The tree in general is getting a buff, I'm sad that I'm losing permanent tensors but even without it, and without taking this toggle because I do think its pretty bad, I'll still come out stronger than I was before.

2: I probably will take the toggle anyway, because right now my main EK is a pure melee character, its an 18 wizard / 2 monk, I have the full TWF feat list going, have Epic Defensive Fighting going, and so I'm not going to see the downside of this anyway. I don't cast spells, I buff up at the start and go full monk. So the downside is non existent to me, and the upside is my Death Aura has another 4.2 hp x Negative Heal Amp per tick.
Not having permanent Tensors IS a 2ndary downside, but I can always cast the spell instead if I have to, so I'll live.

I also usually do 18/2 wiz/mnk with a heavy melee focus, but still dc cast and aoe blast. Agree with all you've said above, at this point I really can't imagine splashing more than 20 AP into EK and something like 11 AP is more likely. Which TBH is kinda sad, for a melee focus caster build to only put a handful of points into the weapon combat enhancement line is indicative that there is better options and that the tree is overall pretty weak. Having said that i'm not going to complain too much because I don't want it buffed to be OP and it is getting some solid improvments - enough to put some points into it at least.


As to your question "Why not just play another Melee character?", well my 18 / 2 is currently my strongest melee character that I have. Isn't that sad? My wizard does better DPS and has better Survivability than my Fighter and my Barbarian and my Monk.

This however, is just strange, rolling through a monk life right now and not taking CC into account survivability is about the same. Melee dps however is easily 2x+, at least in epics. Which TBH I'd say is pretty fair. Haven't done the math, but i'd guess with these EK changes my melee damage is going to go up around 15-30% in heroics, a good bit less than that at cap. Still going to be no where close to my pure-ish mnk in melee damage, especcially at cap. This seems pretty fair to me for having the option to aoe blast with spells and passive self-heals with PM. Then again, i'm talking a AP dip in EK, as of now, there is nothing compelling enough for a 30+ point investment.

[masterofthewand]

I will admit, I'm probably an outlier in this regard, but I'm not outraged for 2 reasons:

1: The tree in general is getting a buff, I'm sad that I'm losing permanent tensors but even without it, and without taking this toggle because I do think its pretty bad, I'll still come out stronger than I was before.

2: I probably will take the toggle anyway, because right now my main EK is a pure melee character, its an 18 wizard / 2 monk, I have the full TWF feat list going, have Epic Defensive Fighting going, and so I'm not going to see the downside of this anyway. I don't cast spells, I buff up at the start and go full monk. So the downside is non existent to me, and the upside is my Death Aura has another 4.2 hp x Negative Heal Amp per tick.
Not having permanent Tensors IS a 2ndary downside, but I can always cast the spell instead if I have to, so I'll live.

As to your question "Why not just play another Melee character?", well my 18 / 2 is currently my strongest melee character that I have. Isn't that sad? My wizard does better DPS and has better Survivability than my Fighter and my Barbarian and my Monk.

People Aren't taking into consideration Legendary and High level reaper. This is where players like Sho-sa and I spend most of our time, if you take away our ability to range when necessary you are signing a death Warrant to anyone willing to take that enhancement. The amount of melee boost they propose isn't even close to enough to offset the ability to go instantly to ranged, it's just not. It would need to equal full fighters or bards because you are essentially making it into a full melee type character, there's no way anyone's going to have time to switch this on and off.

I'm not knocking your build those are fun to play, but at legendary and high level reaper the only thing 2 monk is good for is evasion. You'll never get your melee strong enough to be competitive even with all the stops, not to mention your inherent squishy-ness. These proposed changes would actually help you in what your doing but again it wont be competitive at high level.

What makes melee survivable at high level is the ability to take enemies down quickly. These proposed changes wont be enough to do that, not even close...

Please do not take away our ability cast ranged spells, It dosn't make sense in D&D terms either...

[capsela]

People Aren't taking into consideration Legendary and High level reaper. This is where players like Sho-sa and I spend most of our time, if you take away our ability to range when necessary you are signing a death Warrant to anyone willing to take that enhancement. The amount of melee boost they propose isn't even close to enough to offset the ability to go instantly to ranged, it's just not. It would need to equal full fighters or bards because you are essentially making it into a full melee type character, there's no way anyone's going to have time to switch this on and off.

I'm not knocking your build those are fun to play, but at legendary and high level reaper the only thing 2 monk is good for is evasion. You'll never get your melee strong enough to be competitive even with all the stops, not to mention your inherent squishy-ness. These proposed changes would actually help you in what your doing but again it wont be competitive at high level.

What makes melee survivable at high level is the ability to take enemies down quickly. These proposed changes wont be enough to do that, not even close...

Please do not take away our ability cast ranged spells, It dosn't make sense in D&D terms either...

So devs make mobs hit so hard you die in one hit and then make a tree that forces you to melee them for 60secs to activate your epic moment! The only thing that's going to be activated is a res scroll. The ek is fragile with tiny highpoint pool and baby tickle damage. Forget displacement for 1 second you're a stone. Forget PM! Ek is the real walking dead! But, I'm sure it works great on epic normal so don't fix it. Job well done! Mission accomplished.

[Duhboy]

So devs make mobs hit so hard you die in one hit and then make a tree that forces you to melee them for 60secs to activate your epic moment! The only thing that's going to be activated is a res scroll. The ek is fragile with tiny highpoint pool and baby tickle damage. Forget displacement for 1 second you're a stone. Forget PM! Ek is the real walking dead!

As I said before what's the point in taking this tree? You can easily roll up a cleric/ favored soul and have your casting stat for to hit and damage, full BAB, without giving up your casting range. If you want the HP boost throw 3 levels of fighter or paladin into it and there you go. Or roll a warlock enlightened spirit, the capstone gives 20% HP boost, melee power, spell power, full BAB, without giving up what makes a caster a caster ala spell casting range. EK SHOULD make melee available and viable not a restriction.

[btolson]

Not being able to take martial feats because of awful Wiz/Sorc BaB is a massive oversight with this thing. EK's got full BaB from EK PrC (as well as other PrC's that granted full BaB) so BaB was never an issue in a game of Dungeons and Dragons. It's a pretty serious issue here. Yes, MC is a way to mitigate, but that's not good enough. You lose spell levels and spellcaster levels this way. Eldritch Knight has 9/10 casting and full BaB. Abjurant Champion gives full casting and full BaB. It wasn't hard to get 9th level spells while also having a good BaB.

Most of the tree is still not even close to good enough. Confirmed after testing. It's got to improve before it goes live.

Just to spell out what he's saying here, a pure 20 wiz:
will not be able to take Improve Fighting style until level 12
will not be able to take Imp Crit until level 18 (req 8 bab, which requires level 16, but no feat slot until 18)
will not be able to take Greater Fighting style until level 21


Perhaps a free feat can be worked into t5? A multiselector so that if you have ITWF it grants you GTWF, etc.

And perhaps the level 12 core can grant a "lesser imp crit" effect. Just +1 threat to all weapons, with the same bonus type that the feat applies (i.e., non-stacking, it will do nothing after you have the feat at 18).

[Xgya]

Just to spell out what he's saying here, a pure 20 wiz:
will not be able to take Improve Fighting style until level 12
will not be able to take Imp Crit until level 18 (req 8 bab, which requires level 16, but no feat slot until 18)
will not be able to take Greater Fighting style until level 21

I wanted to quote this so it gets traction.

Give Wizards a Fighting Style bonus to attack speed to compensate for their lack of both bonus feats and pre-requisites to actually get those, along with the fact that the current EK requires a Wizard to actually use spells in combat to reach the same theoretical DPS as comparable Tempest or Fighter, and to keep their boosts alive.
I know the dev team has done their best to signal us that the baseline weapon damage would not be what an EK is supposed to fight with (as hinted by the lack of innate stat to damage, replaced by stat to hit, making hits more important than raw damage), that the extra damage from Spellswords is, which I don't entirely agree but can work with. The hint here is that they need ways to hit more often and faster to make use of those procs.
Tie that bonus to the Knight's Transformation stance if you want people to think the bonus is more relevant than it currently is if you wish.

[Kotharsjach]

People Aren't taking into consideration Legendary and High level reaper. This is where players like Sho-sa and I spend most of our time, if you take away our ability to range when necessary you are signing a death Warrant to anyone willing to take that enhancement. The amount of melee boost they propose isn't even close to enough to offset the ability to go instantly to ranged, it's just not. It would need to equal full fighters or bards because you are essentially making it into a full melee type character, there's no way anyone's going to have time to switch this on and off.

I'm not knocking your build those are fun to play, but at legendary and high level reaper the only thing 2 monk is good for is evasion. You'll never get your melee strong enough to be competitive even with all the stops, not to mention your inherent squishy-ness. These proposed changes would actually help you in what your doing but again it wont be competitive at high level.

What makes melee survivable at high level is the ability to take enemies down quickly. These proposed changes wont be enough to do that, not even close...

Please do not take away our ability cast ranged spells, It dosn't make sense in D&D terms either...

granted, I do 18/2 mostly becuase the playstyle is fun, so in that sense it's a flavor build. TBH I could probably do better with cleric or warlock. Having said all that, when I hit cap, if I cant find a group I start soloing R3-R6 leg quests, and I can do that quite comfortably. I would rate my build in comparision to other builds I see often as CC-Great, Toughness-good, AOE Dps-good, single target dps-moderate, Utility-excellent. EK and the spells will both be pretty large buffs for me. Giving EKs full melee ability and melee toughness would be over the top.

If you want to cast from range, archmage/elemental savant is the better option. If you want to use a ranged weapon, there is AA for that. I envision Ek with a dire charge, hold, eldritch strike, acid well, meteor swarm, hellball, BOGW, energy burst combo. With melee strikes to clean up.

[SpardaX]

People Aren't taking into consideration Legendary and High level reaper.

I mean no disrespect, and correct me if Im wrong here but
Should they be?

Reaper wasn't made to be the new hard.

Reaper was made to be the challenge difficulty, that you needed to go out of your way to win in. Even R1 is supposed to be this.

If you think any tree is good enough to survive R1, you are saying "This tree is good. It's not the best there ever was, but it is good."

I know the meta has gone such a way as this isn't even really true anymore, and R1 definitely is the new hard, but it isn't supposed to be, and it's honestly a shame in my opinion. They made Reaper because people werent getting a challenge. And then people get the challenge and decide that if it's challenging, it must not be good enough, when that was the whole point in the first place.

I agree with you, that not being able to throw raises and heals to other players is simply bad. But Im not sure you should be throwing those things as an EK mid combat anyway. Kill the enemies and then turn your stance off, or grab stones and run, but I feel like in high reaper throwing raises around while in the middle of a mob crowd seems like just as bad an idea.