warlock vs wizard (DC casters, CC/instakill)

[redoubt]

I have a character i'm playing a little again. Has 3xwiz, 3xFvS, 1 bard lives already. I had geared him up in Slave Lords gear as a palemaster enchant/necro DC caster. I want a similar style again, but I'm seeing that warlocks look to have most of what I need spell wise plus the blast. For example, Slarden's build:https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/460700-Pure-Casting-Warlock-DC-Eld-Blast-Build

A third option in the mix would be the gnome enchant/illusionist builds.

I don't have time to make all three versions, but I can put good effort into one of them and I'd like to hear opinions (and pros/cons) on the options between them.

Thanks!

[mr420247]

Depends what you want to do or run i guess

I'd wait until after next week to decide on a build though

lammania wizard sorc changes should be incoming

If you do go lock then you gear will be universal straight to a sorc after update pass

If you plan on epic reaper you can do charm runs for high skulls or group heal dps

So sorc will have more synergy in ea and getting heals on a wizard over r8 will be a problem unless you have a static necro cleric

[Dread131313]

I have a character i'm playing a little again. Has 3xwiz, 3xFvS, 1 bard lives already. I had geared him up in Slave Lords gear as a palemaster enchant/necro DC caster. I want a similar style again, but I'm seeing that warlocks look to have most of what I need spell wise plus the blast. For example, Slarden's build:https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/460700-Pure-Casting-Warlock-DC-Eld-Blast-Build

A third option in the mix would be the gnome enchant/illusionist builds.

I don't have time to make all three versions, but I can put good effort into one of them and I'd like to hear opinions (and pros/cons) on the options between them.

Thanks!

That build is over 3 and a half years old. Might wanna make sure its still viable and nothing was nerfed. There are many builds around here that were once great a few years ago, that are totally worthless now.

[caberonia]

At this point warlock takes the cake hands down.. after any future arcane pass Who knows.

Worlocks get plenty of Instakills charms and CC.

In addition they get NO SP dps for those boss fights.. while not top tier it's infinite DPS not reliant on your blue bar.

Lastly they get a LARGE Temporary HP buff which in many cases can replace healing... and a natural boost to UMD which means you can scroll heal/wand whip if/when needed without as much investment of Skill points.

That's not to say that the other options can't be viable if specced exactly right.. but a good warlock ALMOST builds itself since most of what you need is innate to the class. Now if you have a static with a dedicated healer ect then wizard can be better tuned to your groups needs... IE if you have dedicated DPS and healers and you literally need to be a HOLD bot or only are needed to clear trash with instakills and need to change spells based on the content since this is the ONE advantage wizards have.. and in the current meta it's honestly rarely useful.

[Kriogen]

Go Warlock, Fey, cone based. Focus on spell DC, spell pen, use your blasts for nuke.

Wizard or Sorcerer have zero benefits over Warlock. Whatever devs do with this "arcane pass", Warlock will still end up better. You have your CC, insta-kills and mana-free nuke. What can that "pass" give to wiz/sorc? I-win-button, god mode?

Plus, Warlock also counts as arcane, so whatever wiz/sorc gets, 'lock also gets.

[caberonia]

Go Warlock, Fey, cone based. Focus on spell DC, spell pen, use your blasts for nuke.

Wizard or Sorcerer have zero benefits over Warlock. Whatever devs do with this "arcane pass", Warlock will still end up better. You have your CC, insta-kills and mana-free nuke. What can that "pass" give to wiz/sorc? I-win-button, god mode?

Plus, Warlock also counts as arcane, so whatever wiz/sorc gets, 'lock also gets.

I would agree other than one main point. In the UNLIKELY event that they do a full spell pass making more spells viable buffs/debuffs/summons etc etc the ability to switch spells at shrines/before quests for specific content and party makeup would actually be USEFUL. That being wizards CORE class benefit it would actually be advantageous in many instances. This is highly unlikely and the ONLY way wizards will ever get ANY kind of usefulness above warlock.

Wizards primary benefit of being able to switch spells as needed has been neutered for a LONG time due to design decisions which have rendered a great majority of spells useless. The only other benefit they ONCE had was self healing via the palemaster tree or going ROBOT er warforged.. which was subsequently neutered with reaper and concurrently surpassed by warlocks Temp HP abilities which remain unaffected by reaper.

that's not even going into the whole FREE DPS for warlocks issue. Which would require something like Boosting wand caster levels for wizards to to point of usefulness or reducing SLA cost while simultaneously increasing max CL for SLAS to give them an even remote parity with blasts and/or some other MAJOR sp use to damage ratio adjustment or adjusting sp regen in some way other than relying on shrines and pots.

While i digress this post is less meant for you and more meant for any devs who ACTUALLY read the forums to maybe get them to understand their current dilemma regarding wizards vs warlocks. Any arcane pass and specific wizard pass would need to take all these things into account and while I remain hopeful, the realist in me assumes warlock to maintain top of the pecking order regarding arcanes even after any pass considering the amount of work that would be needed to do it right. (Minimal band aid work on the pass is most likely)

[Alled78]

I have a character i'm playing a little again. Has 3xwiz, 3xFvS, 1 bard lives already. I had geared him up in Slave Lords gear as a palemaster enchant/necro DC caster. I want a similar style again, but I'm seeing that warlocks look to have most of what I need spell wise plus the blast. For example, Slarden's build:https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/460700-Pure-Casting-Warlock-DC-Eld-Blast-Build

A third option in the mix would be the gnome enchant/illusionist builds.

I don't have time to make all three versions, but I can put good effort into one of them and I'd like to hear opinions (and pros/cons) on the options between them.

Thanks!

If u are not very Expert i suggests u to go warlock hurler
Less spells and Less sp management, so Simple and efficient

And play what IS more Fun for you

[Kriogen]

I would agree other than one main point. In the UNLIKELY event that they do a full spell pass making more spells viable buffs/debuffs/summons etc etc the ability to switch spells at shrines/before quests for specific content and party makeup would actually be USEFUL then wizards primary benefit would actually be advantageous in many instances. This is highly unlikely and the ONLY way wizards will ever get ANY kind of usefulness above warlock. Wizards primary benefit of being able to switch spells as needed has been neutered for a LONG time due to design decisions which have rendered a great majority of spells useless. ...
Past Life:Wizard is much better then Past Life:Warlock. There, advantage: Wizard :p

Wizard only has advantage if you are "new". First life, no gear, no nothing. Because of extra feats, its easier to get high enough spell DC, spell pen. A steping stone, past life experience. And then you ascend, reincarnate into better, Sorcerer, Warlock.

[slarden]

I would wait as everything is likely to be change in ways we can't even anticipate when the devs finish the caster pass.

As of today If you are building a character for either soloing, short-manning or powering others through quests (post an lfm where you can solo if the party ends up providing nothing) Warlock is the way to go because of the unlimited dps which isn't even close to top tier compared to a martial build, but it gets the job done and allows you to maximize the use of your other spells (cc, instakill, heals, etc.), despite having one of the smallest spell point pools. Also, the synergy with exalted angel/divine crusader means you have both great dc and great self healing (mass cure moderate with maximize/empower, divine wrath, cocoon or alternatively sacred ground + cocoon) with the drawback of having lower spell penetration, but with both web and tentacles cc as back-ups that is ok. Web works better on some things and tentacles works better on other things - but against drow and a few other mobs I use both simultaneously and it's effective.

I do agree fey is the best overall choice for warlock independent of all other variables, but given current gear, etc. and the fact that I mainly run 3-5 skull great old one wins easily right now because of the extra spellpower from burnscar sash and the crit damage from lgs and power word kill is super useful. If you aren't taking advantage of acid boosting gear fey is really strong. This also synergizes well with energy burst which is useful through about 4-5 skull. For high skull I like fey with the exception of losing power word kill.

If you are building support for a static group or full group lfms I would go with wizard or sorc as you can build a superior specialist with one of those classes. It's unlikely the party is depending on you for dps or self-heals so tentacles and devour the soul are the only interesting advantages warlock has - and neither is critical in a full balanced party. Warlock can still work fine in a support role, but wizard / sorc is a little better. I would stay away from illusion as a specialty for high skull. It's better to go necro and use the racial pk sla against enemies you know have low saves and are not immune - usually arcane casters.

A caster is a good choice for an alt because with 14 reaper pts you get 4 charisma/int/wisdom, 3 dc and 3 spell pen. It's a big investment to get the last stat point, dc and spell pen. A wisdom-based fvs caster/healer is especially good as an alt since you get the hp bonus from fvs and aasimar and the DC potential is really good which compensates well for lack of reaper points as you accumulate reaper points.

[Enoach]

I disagree that Wizard is only for new, under-geared players. I do agree the flexibility of the wizard makes it a good way to introduce yourself to the caster classes.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both...

While not as strong as it once was the ability of the Wizard to switch up spells for best effect is still an advantage Wizards have over the Warlock class
Additionally, Wizards have more spells they can choose to cast over Warlock.


However, that advantage only exists for players that use it. If you are the type of player that sticks with the same spells and don't switch them up then that advantage is diminished.

Based on your playstyle you might want to review the spells available to the warlock as well as to each pact. See if these fall into your desired play style.

Now it is easier to switch up the warlock then the wizard between DC casting and Nuke casting. This is partly because a core damage ability of the Warlock does not cost spell points to use.


I do agree with others in that with the Caster Pass very soon (they are hoping to have by end of year but not holding that as the deadline) you might want to hold out for information - If anything when that pass will occur. As this will let you know if you want to wait, or go with what works for you now based on the current system and then potentially be at a place to switch when the pass occurs.

[Kriogen]

Waiting for "caster pass". Not.

Roll Warlock. By the time this pass happens(also add bugs and fixing and nerfs), you could be level 20(or 30 if iconic).

If you like Warlock, keep it. If not, you can just reincarnate and get PL:Warlock.

[Qezuzu]

If you want to CC, Warlock has all the good CC spells Wizard has, and Tentacles on top of that

If you want to insta-kill, Warlock has SLA Finger and Hurl, and again all the best spells Wizard has

All of Warlock's benefits beyond that (free dps, synergy with Exalted Angel, temp hp) are great and work well in reaper, and all of Wizard's benefits (wide spell selection, undead healing, undead familiar, weak neg energy SLAs) have been nerfed over the years or have always just been bad.

The only Wizard build that offers anything over other casters is Deep Gnome Illusionist because triple PK is cute.


If you want a non-DC Warlock, Death/Knowledge cleric is cool, but their only advantage over warlock is high volume heals.. but depending on the content you're running, Warlock with Aasimar LoH and Exalted Angel's Mass cure will be good enough.

[Xanthrawl]

Having played MANY lives of each, I'd say it depends on your play-style.

Wizards are VERY strong against trash, but deathwarded/bosses can be a real pain. Not necessarily even challenge, just takes forever to solo. If you have a partner/group, it's not a big deal.

Warlocks are PRETTY strong against everything. They tend to have slightly lower DCs, but can be good enough. They do not have the SP pool of a Wizard, so you may run into issues if you really like insta-killing everything. You should have plenty to CC and blast it down though. And boss DPS will tend to be higher (Wizard is higher if you have the SP to nuke. Problem is that most boss fights last so long that you'll be effectively useless by the end.) This makes Warlocks a more appealing solo option.

Personally, I like Wizards better for my playstyle. YMMV.

[Pyed-Pyper]

I would agree other than one main point. In the UNLIKELY event that they do a full spell pass making more spells viable buffs/debuffs/summons etc etc the ability to switch spells at shrines/before quests for specific content and party makeup would actually be USEFUL. That being wizards CORE class benefit it would actually be advantageous in many instances. This is highly unlikely and the ONLY way wizards will ever get ANY kind of usefulness above warlock.

Wizards primary benefit of being able to switch spells as needed has been neutered for a LONG time due to design decisions which have rendered a great majority of spells useless. The only other benefit they ONCE had was self healing via the palemaster tree or going ROBOT er warforged.. which was subsequently neutered with reaper and concurrently surpassed by warlocks Temp HP abilities which remain unaffected by reaper.

that's not even going into the whole FREE DPS for warlocks issue. Which would require something like Boosting wand caster levels for wizards to to point of usefulness or reducing SLA cost while simultaneously increasing max CL for SLAS to give them an even remote parity with blasts and/or some other MAJOR sp use to damage ratio adjustment or adjusting sp regen in some way other than relying on shrines and pots.

While i digress this post is less meant for you and more meant for any devs who ACTUALLY read the forums to maybe get them to understand their current dilemma regarding wizards vs warlocks. Any arcane pass and specific wizard pass would need to take all these things into account and while I remain hopeful, the realist in me assumes warlock to maintain top of the pecking order regarding arcanes even after any pass considering the amount of work that would be needed to do it right. (Minimal band aid work on the pass is most likely)

The quote about a person understanding something based on their paycheck comes to mind.

That is to say, while I agree with just about everything you said, why would SSG make free classes competitive with a purchased class? (serious question, not just rhetorical) The only way I can see that happening is if they somehow tied class viability to the TR grind. Oh wait, that already happened.

;tldr IMO you are wasting your time addressing SSG, but I do applaud your efforts.

---

OP, go warlock. It is easier, faster, more robust, more versatile, more viable. Will someone come here and contradict what I said? Probably. Don't trust me or anyone else. Try it yourself. And BTW, if the Warlock PL has been fixed, it is a nice one.

[count_spicoli]

The only Wizard build that offers anything over other casters is Deep Gnome Illusionist because triple PK is cute.


.

Its more than cute.

Dont know what your playstyle is OP but if you like grouping and admiring your kill counts build for this extensively. Should aim for necro as your main and illusion as secondary. At cap you should be targeting around a dc around 112 for necro and 111 for illusion. This takes alot of work but payoffs are ridonculous. Color spray which is based on int is great free cc that blinds evwrything as well. Youll learn how to make your dmg suitable for bosses but you ll need help from party membera there.

If you solo or looking for speed racial pastlives stick with warlock.

[lillentle]

Warlock is 100% not better than a level 12 wiz, the quests are different epic and heroic, for example in the new quests they put more mobs in to counter all the instakills. What do you plan on doing with your character?

[Proton]

Best builds I ever saw where Wizards. Not all of them, but every now and then there is this Elminster dude that makes Warlocks look bad, no one gets any kills barely in that group, just him CC pop pop CC pop pop. Run up to the monster, pop gone! Shoot at monster, pop gone! Super wizard already made them go bye bye. Its been a long time since I seen any of those Elminster types, but I know they are out there still. Most people just don't know how to get wizards to tick like that, from what I hear it doesn't take much. My own aren't so invested though, as it does require some PLs for the DCs to max out from stats and PL bonuses.

So if you can master it, I think wizard is the better choice ultimately. But if not, go warlock!

[HungarianRhapsody]

Go Warlock, Fey, cone based. Focus on spell DC, spell pen, use your blasts for nuke.

Wizard or Sorcerer have zero benefits over Warlock. Whatever devs do with this "arcane pass", Warlock will still end up better. You have your CC, insta-kills and mana-free nuke. What can that "pass" give to wiz/sorc? I-win-button, god mode?

Plus, Warlock also counts as arcane, so whatever wiz/sorc gets, 'lock also gets.

All of that sounds good to me except for Fey. Why do people like Fey? It's the only Warlock that lets enemies use their Evasion.

I've been using GOO Warlock for Acid attacks and I've been loving it. What's the attraction for Fey?

[HungarianRhapsody]

Past Life:Wizard is much better then Past Life:Warlock. There, advantage: Wizard :p

Wizard only has advantage if you are "new". First life, no gear, no nothing. Because of extra feats, its easier to get high enough spell DC, spell pen. A steping stone, past life experience. And then you ascend, reincarnate into better, Sorcerer, Warlock.

I see it exactly the opposite way - if you're a Warlock, you can still nuke everything until it's dead and survive on Temp HP. Wizards need to actually have enough DC and Spell Pen to get their spells to land, so they're not as friendly to a new player/new character.

Past Life: Wizard is the best feat in the game, though. That's for sure.

[Iriale]

All of that sounds good to me except for Fey. Why do people like Fey? It's the only Warlock that lets enemies use their Evasion.

I've been using GOO Warlock for Acid attacks and I've been loving it. What's the attraction for Fey?
Pact spells: disco and irresistible otto are very great CC spells, and misty escape a good life saver. A fey pact warlock has the same CC spells than wizzie plus tentacles, which arcanes don't have access (although they should have) Sonic damage doesn't have almost any resistance, too. I almost never see that enemies evade my pact, anyways.


I see it exactly the opposite way - if you're a Warlock, you can still nuke everything until it's dead and survive on Temp HP. Wizards need to actually have enough DC and Spell Pen to get their spells to land, so they're not as friendly to a new player/new character.

Past Life: Wizard is the best feat in the game, though. That's for sure.
But i agree with this.

Slarden advice is good, OP. Listen him.