a question about dice rolls

[ElrondElfKing]

I'm a little confused about the difference between the attack roll>damage roll, and the threat roll>confirmation roll. Are they both a d20 dice? The weapon's damage dice? Separate rolls? Part of the same roll?

[ElrondElfKing]

So you take a swing at a troll. Let's say you have a 1d8 longsword with whatever enhancement bonuses. Please walk me through attack and threat rolls.

[Revolted]

So you take a swing at a troll. Let's say you have a 1d8 longsword with whatever enhancement bonuses. Please walk me through attack and threat rolls.

It's quite simple actually when you know the system. When you attack you roll a d20 that will be added to your attack bonus (from BAB, items, weapon,etc.). If you hit, so your roll is high enough to hit (and it's not a 1) you make a dmg roll. The dmg roll is then that 1d8+any bonus to damage you got at the moment.

If you roll your attack into the critical rolls (so for a longsword, without improved critical it is any roll 19-20) you'll have to make a second attack roll to see if the critical hit is confirmed. This happens then when the first attack is on the critical threat, and the second attack is high enough to hit the monster (as in every other attack roll). If both are correct you got a critical hit. The critical hit is then a roll where you multiply the number of dices for the critical multiplier (so for a level 1 fighter with a longsword this means you'll roll 1d8 x2).

Hope my explanation was simple enough, english is not my mother language so I struggle sometimes

[C-Dog]

...the difference between the attack roll>damage roll, and the threat roll>confirmation roll. Are they both a d20 dice?
Yes and no - but mostly "yes".

Yes, you roll a d20 and that's the result (you can see the die on your UI, and in the combat log tab in your /chat window), but no, the formula for "THACO" ("to hit Armor Class 0", to use an older term) is no longer based on X + 1-20. With armor class able to top 100, it just doesn't work that easily w/ a d20 as the sole variable after all the adds. So, behind the scenes, a far more complex formula generates the target number you need to roll "to hit" (maybe a 3), but then, yes, you roll a simple d20 "to hit" against that number.

So, you swing at a troll, and the "to hit" number is 3 (via arcane and invisible formula that we won't go in to). Longswords do d8, and have a crit range of 19-20.

So, if the "to hit" ends up being 3 for the troll, if you roll 3-18 then you have a normal hit, and do normal damage (see below).

Now, if that same "to hit" roll is high enough to fall into the critical range for your weapon (for a longsword, roll a natural 19-20), it's a critical threat. Then a 2nd roll is made as if simply trying "to hit" the target - if that roll succeeds, then it's a crit.* (i.e., in the previous example, if you need a 3 "to hit", and you roll a 1-2... then no crit, so sorry.)

(* You can see this in your combat log as well. "You roll a 20 - critical threat!" <br> "You roll to confirm the critical..." or something like that.)

Then (if you hit) you roll damage, based on the weapon and all the adds. Daggers are d4's, graxes are d12's, etc etc. That's a separate roll. For a longsword, it'd be d8 + add ons - your Strength (or whichever ability governs damage for your build), the basic weapon bonus (+1, +2, etc.), any bonus damage (d8 fire), anything special from the character (Ranger's bonus vs. Favored Enemies, a Sneak Attack's d6's, etc. etc.). Each source may get resisted separately, then it all gets added up.* Bam.

(* You can see this in the Combat log. You can also vary the numbers visible during combat, exactly how detailed those are, via [o]ptions.)

[ElrondElfKing]

Better, but still a little muddy :)

So, in the above example, using the longsword, doing 1d8 slashing damage, with a crit range of 19-20 x2.

You swing at the troll.

You roll a d20. One of the following could happen:
- if you roll less than a 3, then no damage.
- if you roll a 3-18, then you throw a damage roll with the 1d8 plus enhancement bonuses, plus your STR (x1.5 for THF or x0.5 for off-hand TWF weapon).
- if you roll a 19 or 20, then you make a confirmation roll with the 1d8 x2 (2d8) plus any bonuses.

Is this correct? (I think I'm still off).

And how does the troll's AC play into this?

[Garbudo]

Swing at troll dice rolls a 20 now as its in your critical range dice rolls another d20 if that would not hit trolls armor class then you deal normal damage. The 2nd roll is to confirm the hit as a critical failing conformation does not mean you don't hit the troll you already hit him with the 20 its just to see if you actually sunk that longsword in good or not. Hope that helps

[Garbudo]

If you roll a 20 and the second roll to confirm is a 1 you still hit it is just not critical hit.

[ElrondElfKing]

Better, but still a little muddy :)

So, in the above example, using the longsword, doing 1d8 slashing damage, with a crit range of 19-20 x2.

You swing at the troll.

You roll a d20. One of the following could happen:
- if you roll less than a 3, then no damage.
- if you roll a 3-18, then you throw a damage roll with the 1d8 plus enhancement bonuses, plus your STR (x1.5 for THF or x0.5 for off-hand TWF weapon).
- if you roll a 19 or 20, then you make a confirmation roll with the 1d8 x2 (2d8) plus any bonuses.

Is this correct? (I think I'm still off)
And how does the troll's AC play into this?

Ok, let me try again.
You swing at the troll.
If d20 rolls less than a 3, then no damage.
If you roll a 3-18, then some damage MIGHT be done. Do you then roll another d20 to confirm?
If you roll a 19 or 20, then there is a POSSIBILITY (a threat) of a critical hit, but you still need a confirmation roll.
Roll another d20 to confirm.
If you roll a 19 or 20 again, you will get a critical hit.
If you roll less than 19, then you deal only normal damage.

When do you roll the 1d8?
How does the troll's AC play into this?

[Garbudo]

Ok, let me try again.You swing at the troll. If d20 rolls less than a 3, then no damage.If you roll a 3-18, then damage will be doneIf you roll a 19 or 20, then there is a POSSIBILITY (a threat) of a critical hit, but you still need a confirmation roll.Roll another d20 to confirm.If you roll a 3-20, you will get a critical hit.When do you roll the 1d8? After its a hit or critical hit.How does the troll's AC play into this? That is why you would need to roll a 3AC of Troll 20. You have a +17 to hit so you will hit troll on a 3-20 roll. Hope this helps if not if your on Khyber pm me a character name, voice is much easier to explain like how displacement and the sort work as well. EDITED YOUR QUOTE look there too sorry on phone so forums don't play nice

[C-Dog]

Better, but still a little muddy :)
You've got it - and np.


So, in the above example, using the longsword...
...

You roll a d20. One of the following could happen:
- if you roll less than a 3, then no damage.
- if you roll a 3-18, then you throw a damage roll with the 1d8 plus enhancement bonuses, plus your STR (x1.5 for THF or x0.5 for off-hand TWF weapon).
- if you roll a 19 or 20, then you make a confirmation roll with the 1d8 x2 (2d8) plus any bonuses.
To be clear - the confirmation roll is another d20 "to hit" roll. Same as your first, except this one is simply "Would you hit or not if you rolled this number?". Not concerned about a 2nd roll of 20 (so no "double-crit"), just "yes or no?". If "yes", then that confirms the original (in this case) 19-20 roll as a crit, and you do the extra damage.

If no, you still hit, but it's not a crit, so you just do "normal" damage.

(NB - The "confirmation roll" is in place for exceptional cases where the base "to hit" is, say, 18 - it doesn't make sense for 2/3 of your hits (19 & 20) to also be crits.)


And how does the troll's AC play into this?
That's the "complex formula behind the scenes" thing I was talking about earlier.


AC of Troll 20. You have a +17 to hit so you will hit troll on a 3-20 roll.
No. That's D&D you're thinking of - this is DDO, NOT the same. Think of DDO as a new edition of D&D, w/ some very diff rules in some places - D&D 6.e.

But the final d20 roll still looks the same - and, yes, the higher the AC, the tougher to hit. But how you get there is not so simple.

In DDO, AC's can range up to and past 100, and BAB + bonuses can go up... near 50??? Not sure, but they're both so large and cover such a wide range of possibles that, in many cases, a simple {Attack Bonus -AC} formula would easily give 0% or 100% chance. So there's a (rather complex) formula to determine a "to hit" number that falls within 1-20.

So higher AC = a higher to hit number (even if it's not 1:1).

(If you're still curious, I'll just say that so was I - until I saw the formula. It is NOT intuitive, so it doesn't help (much) to know it. Just accept that's how it works.) :cool:

[ElrondElfKing]

Trying to simplify this for my barbarian brain :)

You swing at the troll.

If d20 rolls less than a 3, then no damage. So sorry.

If d20 rolls a 3-18, then damage will be done with your next roll of 1d8 plus bonuses.

If d20 rolls a 19 or 20, then there is a POSSIBILITY (a threat) of a critical hit, but you still need a confirmation roll.
Roll another d20 to confirm.
If d20 rolls a 3-20, you will get a critical hit. Damage is done on the next roll with 2d8 plus bonuses.

Do I have it?

[C-Dog]

Yep. :cool:

(Did you never play tabletop?)

[ElrondElfKing]

Thank you everyone for clearing this up for me.

I have another question. Can someone tell me what to hit means? Is this the number that the D20 must roll in order to score a hit on the troll? In the above example, this would be a 3?

I understand that the to hit number is a very complex formula, which I don't really need to know. But, I assume that it's not always a 3. What is the range of the to hit number?

What can we do as players to decrease the troll's to hit number?

[Enoach]

Thank you everyone for clearing this up for me.

I have another question. Can someone tell me what to hit means? Is this the number that the D20 must roll in order to score a hit on the troll? In the above example, this would be a 3?

I understand that the to hit number is a very complex formula, which I don't really need to know. But, I assume that it's not always a 3. What is the range of the to hit number?

What can we do as players to decrease the troll's to hit number?

Simple definition of "To Hit", is the roll to determine if your attack hits or misses. This is the d20 roll that occurs

It is not really that complex, however, the number need to hit is effected by your character's Attack bonus and the AC of what you are trying to hit.


To lower any mobs ability to hit you can be accomplished by what is referred to as Debuffs. Such as effects that lower the Trolls Strength or effects like blindness that give them lowered chance of hitting.

However, if your question was how can I lower what you need to hit, then look at abilities/effects like Sunder which lower the AC of mobs. Also lowering Dexterity of a mob can also can reduce the chance to avoid being hit.

[ElrondElfKing]

Simple definition of "To Hit", is the roll to determine if your attack hits or misses. This is the d20 roll that occurs

It is not really that complex, however, the number need to hit is effected by your character's Attack bonus and the AC of what you are trying to hit.


To lower any mobs ability to hit you can be accomplished by what is referred to as Debuffs. Such as effects that lower the Trolls Strength or effects like blindness that give them lowered chance of hitting.

However, if your question was how can I lower what you need to hit, then look at abilities/effects like Sunder which lower the AC of mobs. Also lowering Dexterity of a mob can also can reduce the chance to avoid being hit.

To answer my own question, it seems the best way to increase your chances of hitting the troll are to get feats, enhancements, and weapons that will increase your Attack Bonus.

[C-Dog]

To answer my own question, it seems the best way to increase your chances of hitting the troll are to get feats, enhancements, and weapons that will increase your Attack Bonus.
Well, yes, but it's not necessary with "a troll". It becomes necessary with Bosses and other intentionally/appropriately hard-to-hit targets.

For trash, any well-planned build can do the job, np. Start w/ a high combat stat (be it for melee, ranged, or casting - whatever is the controlling stat), put your level-ups there, get good boosting gear, maybe a +2 Tome, and you should be good. Up until Bosses.

That's when you need elite gear, and, yes, to have all the to-hit you can scrape together.

[ElrondElfKing]

Good advice. Thanks.