Dead Raids

[Arkat]

From another thread:



No matter the broken game mechanics, moldy quest loot and dead raids left in its wake.It'd be nice if they found a way to make some of the older raids (TotD, FoTP, FoT, MoD, DotJ, Leg TS, Leg HOX, etc.) attractive to run again. Maybe create another kind of rune that would drop in those that we could turn in for cool new items or something else we'd like, like tomes.

I was thinking about this further. Maybe my suggested new runes idea could also be used to improve existing raid loot or maybe turn the runes in with old raid loot for better versions?

Lynnabel has shown SSG has the tech to do that with the Schism Shard turn-ins for better versions of Wave, Whelm, and Blackrazor. Why not do it for older raid loot as well?

[hinton]

Time to get rid of raids. Make a harder tier of quests and convert all existing raids to that standard.

[MaeveTuohy]

Time to get rid of raids. Make a harder tier of quests and convert all existing raids to that standard.

On the contrary, time to make more raids and for greater than 12 players, and ensire they can be done by averahe pugs, not just the uber crowd.

[hinton]

Most players of DDO now play either solo or in a small tight group. Most players(not forum posters) don't care to raid. Making us raid to get the highest tier gear causes a larger separation in power and game enjoyment. Raids are so 2010...

[scipiojedi]

Most players of DDO now play either solo or in a small tight group. Most players(not forum posters) don't care to raid. Making us raid to get the highest tier gear causes a larger separation in power and game enjoyment. Raids are so 2010...

that's why they made Slavers gear so powerful....

[MaeveTuohy]

Most players of DDO now play either solo or in a small tight group. Most players(not forum posters) don't care to raid. Making us raid to get the highest tier gear causes a larger separation in power and game enjoyment. Raids are so 2010...


You have described my play style precisely. Mostly I solo. I play once a week with 3 friends. I

But I also raid, exclusively with lfm groups of similarly midtier players.

The only problem with raids is that in recent years they appear to have been designed principally to challenge high end players and sell them raid bypass timers. It's the design philosophy that isn't working for the average player, not the concept.

[Cantor]

On the contrary, time to make more raids and for greater than 12 players, and ensire they can be done by averahe pugs, not just the uber crowd.

Please no. Coming from old school mmos, I was super psyched that DDO limited raids to 12 people. 40+ people no thanks.

[blerkington]

I would like to see older raids rehabilitated too, so there was more reason to run them at cap. There's some very good content there which is sitting largely unused.

Looking at loot is one way. But apart from increasing the power of existing items, other rewards like xp tokens, more guild renown, sentient weapon xp, a better chance at store items, etc, might also be useful as rewards too. Adding a common currency for item purchase as some players have recently suggested was a good idea.

The other thing we've largely lost now is the old connection between reincarnation and raiding. Once upon a time we could get loot from raiding that was quite useful for heroic lives. So maybe there is scope for some form of reward that is useful for heroic levelling too.

I'd also like to see the level restrictions relaxed on lower level raids for capped characters wanting to try reaper runs.

Thanks.

[GramercyRiff]

Raids make no sense in a game that is supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. It was always a bad idea to have raids.

What DnD game has ever had THIRTEEN people at a table?

[vryxnr]

I've always thought it's be sweet (and a good way to revitalize older raids) to have a raid-based saga or something like that.

Though I must also comment about the list of 'dead' raids given above. I see TotDW and FoTP run almost weekly still, and legendary TS and Legendary HoX every once in a while too (and usually fill up nicely due to lack of flagging and ease of access). FoT less so but still see it pop up now and again (good source of Coms of Heroism for upgrading low epic weapons and cormyrian dragon armor). MoD, DotJ, LoB, and MA I almost never see though, so yeah. Even ascension chamber (heroic abbot) I haven't seen in ages. Heroic Shroud I barely see as well, but seems like most who want to make heroic greensteel simply solo it now.

[MaeveTuohy]

Raids make no sense in a game that is supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. It was always a bad idea to have raids.

What DnD game has ever had THIRTEEN people at a table?

If the game is supposed to match the tabletop experience that closely, should it also prevent soloing? Because that would kill the game.

This is not tabletop pnp (which I still play) .

[hinton]

If the game is supposed to match the tabletop experience that closely, shouls it prevent soloing? Because that would kill the game.

This is not tabletop pnp (which I still play) .

Solo adventures have been published.
At one time no dm adventures were published as well using a "magic" pen".

[lillentle]

Raids make no sense in a game that is supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. It was always a bad idea to have raids.

What DnD game has ever had THIRTEEN people at a table?

That’s because DnD players don’t have 13 friends, so we mass here online.

Some people are saying to get rid of raids, didn’t know some people wanted that... I don’t.

You’re right, it sucks that so many of these fun raids are just dead, all the hard work the devs and creation teams put in just to let it die, but it’s not just the raids, there are sooo many quests that are just as dead as the raids, sometimes Poole don’t play the content simply because it takes 30 minutes to get 15k XP compared to the 30k you can get from a 10 minute quest, boost the XP and people will play them.

What kind of business strategy is adding content that makes other content worthless, or even letting old content go to waste.

[MaeveTuohy]

Please no. Coming from old school mmos, I was super psyched that DDO limited raids to 12 people. 40+ people no thanks.

I think the game (though maybe not the hamsters they use) has room for this kind of variety. I get that you wouldn't take part, and that's cool.

[blerkington]

I think the game (though maybe not the hamsters they use) has room for this kind of variety. I get that you wouldn't take part, and that's cool.

Those large scale raids can get very hard to coordinate. I wouldn't mind one or two, but it may be hard to fill groups and have a good chance of completion even on lower difficulties.

The other thing is it wasn't that long ago the developers were talking about reducing group sizes to combat lag. Maybe the other improvements they've made since then would allow larger group sizes now, I just don't know.

Thanks.

[Tlorrd]

I would love to be able to participate in raids ... however, due to my schedule I find it hard to find raid groups, other than occasional pug. I usually play daily for 2-3 hours, but again d/t to my schedule find it hard to find a static group to run with since I might miss days here and there. Thus I am forced to solo now and give up the raid loot ... additionally as I took a break from the game for 6-8 months, I'm now catching up on racial TRs and reaper points, etc. ... thus I never really have a character at cap for any extended period of time ... I run 2 characters since that is all I have time to invest in and really I'd just run 1 to maximize that one, but I do like playing at least 2 different play styles.

thus although I would really like all those +1s and +2 that raid loot gives above regular new loot ... so far I'm ok with missing it since I can't find the right group or time to play at cap due to the hamster wheel that I'm trying to catch up on. So far, the history has recently been that raid loot becomes like normal loot within 6-12 months ... I imagine with Sharn on the horizon the devs will need to outdo themselves and make sweeter loot ... thus I can wait for that expansion and not feel too bad that I haven't pulled the latest and greatest because by the time I catch up on the hamster wheel, those stats on raid loot will make it to normal loot.

It's sad in many different ways ... some on my part for not having time to devote to make all the +1s and +2s, but also on the game side as well with power creep. Although like everything, maybe its a double edged sword, thus I know I will gain certain benefits because power creep will continue.

[Slazinger1]

On the contrary, time to make more raids and for greater than 12 players, and ensire they can be done by averahe pugs, not just the uber crowd.

Didn't they try that with the Spectral Dragon raid back in the old Mabar? Was a what, 24 person raid and was completely unplayable because of lag.

[TedSandyman]

I hate that I can't finish my epic green steel items or the thunder-forged stuff because of how rarely those raids get run. I have been on and off DDO all day today and did not see one epic shroud or deathworm/thunderpeak.

I'm not saying they don't come up, so don't start disagreeing, but they don't come up often and rarely when I happen to be on and I am on soloing quite a bit. I see shrouds occasionally, maybe once every week or two. I can't remember when I saw a deathworm lfm.

And truthfully, most of the raids I really don't like anyway. Too many complicated rules. Dont stand here or you'll die. Dont stand over there or you die. Run for your life or you die. Don't hit that monster or you die. Hit that monster or you''ll die. Kill all these together or start over. Kill all of these apart or start over. I end up just following along most of the time and hoping I don't do something to get everyone killed.

You know, I started this to beg for a way to somehow get materials solo. I know many will complain that getting the materials is what forces people into the groups. And if you can get the materials in a different way then people wont run the raids. But, you know what, people just aren't running the raids anyway.

So I log in and think, what can I do here at level 30? Check the LFMs. Nothing. Well, there isn't much else to do. Go solo a few things on elite or hard. Maybe check the auction house for a while. Go make a sandwich maybe and check back later.

It'd be really cool if I could go farm for a legendary large devil scale or legendary length of infernal chain while I'm waiting for an LFM to pop up. Whatever I would hope from this ability to farm, it would have to be at a much, much slower rate than running the raid. But, if the raid is never run, it wont really matter. I just feel like a whole lot of work and a whole lot of coding and really neat stuff is tied up in raids and it just seems such a shame that there just doesn't seem to be a way for me to get at any of that stuff.

I've been on now, while typing this and a bit before, for about 3 hours. And I saw one Legendary Tempest Spine. Right now there's a Killing Time group up, but it's been abandoned. For some reason someone is solo farming subterrane - Central. There's a guild recruiting. That's all the LFMs in my range. Think I'll go get some coffee. Looks like a looooong night.

Nah, I'll probably just go to bed. Check again in the morning before the football games.

[hinton]

I hate that I can't finish my epic green steel items or the thunder-forged stuff because of how rarely those raids get run. I have been on and off DDO all day today and did not see one epic shroud or deathworm/thunderpeak.

I'm not saying they don't come up, so don't start disagreeing, but they don't come up often and rarely when I happen to be on and I am on soloing quite a bit. I see shrouds occasionally, maybe once every week or two. I can't remember when I saw a deathworm lfm.

And truthfully, most of the raids I really don't like anyway. Too many complicated rules. Dont stand here or you'll die. Dont stand over there or you die. Run for your life or you die. Don't hit that monster or you die. Hit that monster or you''ll die. Kill all these together or start over. Kill all of these apart or start over. I end up just following along most of the time and hoping I don't do something to get everyone killed.

You know, I started this to beg for a way to somehow get materials solo. I know many will complain that getting the materials is what forces people into the groups. And if you can get the materials in a different way then people wont run the raids. But, you know what, people just aren't running the raids anyway.

So I log in and think, what can I do here at level 30? Check the LFMs. Nothing. Well, there isn't much else to do. Go solo a few things on elite or hard. Maybe check the auction house for a while. Go make a sandwich maybe and check back later.

It'd be really cool if I could go farm for a legendary large devil scale or legendary length of infernal chain while I'm waiting for an LFM to pop up. Whatever I would hope from this ability to farm, it would have to be at a much, much slower rate than running the raid. But, if the raid is never run, it wont really matter. I just feel like a whole lot of work and a whole lot of coding and really neat stuff is tied up in raids and it just seems such a shame that there just doesn't seem to be a way for me to get at any of that stuff.

I've been on now, while typing this and a bit before, for about 3 hours. And I saw one Legendary Tempest Spine. Right now there's a Killing Time group up, but it's been abandoned. For some reason someone is solo farming subterrane - Central. There's a guild recruiting. That's all the LFMs in my range. Think I'll go get some coffee. Looks like a looooong night.

Nah, I'll probably just go to bed. Check again in the morning before the football games.

look at who on your server. How many of those people raid? What percent is that? It's time to end raids. SSG stop making raids. Don't cater to that small percentage create content for the majority. Not the loudmouthed elitests.

[Enoach]

Raids make no sense in a game that is supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. It was always a bad idea to have raids.

What DnD game has ever had THIRTEEN people at a table?

Well, maybe not thirteen people at the table but I've been in a few campaigns where we have been a part of an army, leading them in combat or have needed to lead a group of NPCs to safety after freeing them from a dungeon. This has turned our party of five into large dinner parties :).

-------------
As for raids. I've taken a different approach then most. For many raids disappeared from their quest cycles because they required either a certain type of character/playstyle to solo or they just didn't like the idea of waiting for people to join as the pool of flagged character began to dwindle (more players concentrating on a single character because the feel that is the best approach, etc.)

So to that end I lead one night a week (currently Saturday) where I post in advance on our Guild forums one Heroic Raid and One Epic/Legendary Raid. Just as a Note when I'm asked about what level restrictions placed on these raids my answer is "flagged". As we run these for fun and learning as well as simple comradery.

I then encourage during the week any flagging needed. When we do not have enough to fully fill the raid we open up to others - These are treated as Teaching/Learning Raids where everyone is encourage to participate in every aspect.

To that end I feel that many raids irregardless of their loot standing can still be revitalized if groups are available and open - Much like they were in the "Raiding Hay days" of DDO.

As a Guild leader of a prominent Guild on Khyber I encourage all Guild leaders to look at establishing something similar as I've felt it is the Guild that can help create the environment that can create a safe learning experience for its members, so that they are confident enough to join others in raids as they understand how they can contribute to its successful completion. Or if anything know where they shouldn't stand :)

[Silverleafeon]

Please no. Coming from old school mmos, I was super psyched that DDO limited raids to 12 people. 40+ people no thanks.
+1 aye
Increasing party numbers above 9 starts to incrementally increase bandwidth issues.

That is why smart leaders limit Thunderhelm explorer groups to 9-10 party members.



DDO might be healthier with raid groups reduced to 10 or 11 instead of 12, but its doubtful that will change.

[noinfo]

look at who on your server. How many of those people raid? What percent is that? It's time to end raids. SSG stop making raids. Don't cater to that small percentage create content for the majority. Not the loudmouthed elitests.

It's ok to not be able to manage the harder content yourself as long as you are enjoying it. But don't go asking for the best gear in game when you are not participating in the hardest content in game.

More raids, not less.

[Silverleafeon]

By the way, we had a 40+ group raid event during Mabar for a few years....

It was closed due to massive lag issues, and recently reopened as Eternity Unleashed

[MaeveTuohy]

Didn't they try that with the Spectral Dragon raid back in the old Mabar? Was a what, 24 person raid and was completely unplayable because of lag.

It was extremely popular with the players. The servers couldn't cope. Hence my comment aboit the hamsters.

Large scale raids would be popular if they could solve the lag issue. Love to see it happen. Probably won't.

[Wipey]

I don't get some of these comments. I'd think raids and other difficult group content like high reaper in epics now was exactly why we improve our characters and gameplay.

[Tlorrd]

I don't get some of these comments. I'd think raids and other difficult group content like high reaper in epics now was exactly why we improve our characters and gameplay.

The difficulty sometimes is balancing a build that you need to be able to level sometimes solo or with pugging just to get it to cap that may not be optimal high skill reaper, but an optimal high skill reaper build may be hard to level by itself. So those that have a strong guild or steady group can level those builds quickly and efficiently, those who dont have that for whatever reason need to find alternate ways to level their characters to not fall to far behind the TR train.

[Fallout47]

Well, maybe not thirteen people at the table but I've been in a few campaigns where we have been a part of an army, leading them in combat or have needed to lead a group of NPCs to safety after freeing them from a dungeon. This has turned our party of five into large dinner parties :).

-------------
As for raids. I've taken a different approach then most. For many raids disappeared from their quest cycles because they required either a certain type of character/playstyle to solo or they just didn't like the idea of waiting for people to join as the pool of flagged character began to dwindle (more players concentrating on a single character because the feel that is the best approach, etc.)

So to that end I lead one night a week (currently Saturday) where I post in advance on our Guild forums one Heroic Raid and One Epic/Legendary Raid. Just as a Note when I'm asked about what level restrictions placed on these raids my answer is "flagged". As we run these for fun and learning as well as simple comradery.

I then encourage during the week any flagging needed. When we do not have enough to fully fill the raid we open up to others - These are treated as Teaching/Learning Raids where everyone is encourage to participate in every aspect.

To that end I feel that many raids irregardless of their loot standing can still be revitalized if groups are available and open - Much like they were in the "Raiding Hay days" of DDO.

As a Guild leader of a prominent Guild on Khyber I encourage all Guild leaders to look at establishing something similar as I've felt it is the Guild that can help create the environment that can create a safe learning experience for its members, so that they are confident enough to join others in raids as they understand how they can contribute to its successful completion. Or if anything know where they shouldn't stand :)

I agree with much of what you say, particularly people focusing on a main toon, as an important part of the problem. With the current grind wall of past lives and reaper xp, many are motivated to focus on one or a limited number of characters. This also insures a large part of the community stays on the heroic TR wheel. A vast majority of raids, exceptions of von5/6 and TS, are run exclusively by players at 30 or close to 30.

The idea of raids allowing more than 12 brought two things to mind; LAG and server population. Unfortunately, both of these make the idea of raids exceeding 12 members a pipedream.

So I think the death of raiding, or at the minimum, the dwindling number of lfms has several causes and has been evolving over the past couple of years: past life grinding, dwindling server population, out dated loot(sometimes occurring at a breathtaking pace), increased lag after the server move and the death of alts are all factors contributing to the problem.

[spyder7723]

I hate that I can't finish my epic green steel items or the thunder-forged stuff because of how rarely those raids get run. I have been on and off DDO all day today and did not see one epic shroud or deathworm/thunderpeak.

I'm not saying they don't come up, so don't start disagreeing, but they don't come up often and rarely when I happen to be on and I am on soloing quite a bit. I see shrouds occasionally, maybe once every week or two. I can't remember when I saw a deathworm lfm.

And truthfully, most of the raids I really don't like anyway. Too many complicated rules. Dont stand here or you'll die. Dont stand over there or you die. Run for your life or you die. Don't hit that monster or you die. Hit that monster or you''ll die. Kill all these together or start over. Kill all of these apart or start over. I end up just following along most of the time and hoping I don't do something to get everyone killed.

You know, I started this to beg for a way to somehow get materials solo. I know many will complain that getting the materials is what forces people into the groups. And if you can get the materials in a different way then people wont run the raids. But, you know what, people just aren't running the raids anyway.

So I log in and think, what can I do here at level 30? Check the LFMs. Nothing. Well, there isn't much else to do. Go solo a few things on elite or hard. Maybe check the auction house for a while. Go make a sandwich maybe and check back later.

It'd be really cool if I could go farm for a legendary large devil scale or legendary length of infernal chain while I'm waiting for an LFM to pop up. Whatever I would hope from this ability to farm, it would have to be at a much, much slower rate than running the raid. But, if the raid is never run, it wont really matter. I just feel like a whole lot of work and a whole lot of coding and really neat stuff is tied up in raids and it just seems such a shame that there just doesn't seem to be a way for me to get at any of that stuff.

I've been on now, while typing this and a bit before, for about 3 hours. And I saw one Legendary Tempest Spine. Right now there's a Killing Time group up, but it's been abandoned. For some reason someone is solo farming subterrane - Central. There's a guild recruiting. That's all the LFMs in my range. Think I'll go get some coffee. Looks like a looooong night.

Nah, I'll probably just go to bed. Check again in the morning before the football games.


The problem isnt that nobody runs raids. Raids are run frequently, but they are run within guilds and any extra slots are filled by friends list. And really that isnt a problem, that's just human nature to run with people you already know. Why put an LFM to get a random joe or Jill who may may not only be inept but may also have attitude problems.

Basically you have two options. Join an active guild that regularly runs raids or start your own raid lfms.

[hinton]

The problem isnt that nobody runs raids. Raids are run frequently, but they are run within guilds and any extra slots are filled by friends list. And really that isnt a problem, that's just human nature to run with people you already know. Why put an LFM to get a random joe or Jill who may may not only be inept but may also have attitude problems.

Basically you have two options. Join an active guild that regularly runs raids or start your own raid lfms.

Some raids are run but by how much of the player base? Around 5% thats a lot of effort to create the content that will not be seen by most of the players. Like I said earlier most of us run solo or with 1-3 friends now. Raid are fine if the game is a raiding game DDO is no longer that game. It leaves a bad taste for the majority of players. We lose more players due to the elitism of raiders then we do from lack of raids.

[vryxnr]

Whenever I hear someone say they cannot raid because there are no LFMs up I want to grab them and shake them.

My suggestion is to get involved. Many raids are run via channels and guilds first, LFMs are often only put up only if they cannot fill via channels and guilds first. Find active channels and guilds and get involved! (One of the channels I'm in runs deathwyrm and Fire on Thunder Peaks weekly. Yup, every week, because we find it fun). Also, you can start your own. If you're new, make it clear in your LFM you're trying to learn it. Also, unless the raid locks right away, there is no need to wait for a full group before starting either. Temple of the Deathwyrm is a great example: it can be soloed up until the final fight (or the second random split just before the final fight depending on RNG), and many people will happily join late (often times intentionally waiting so as to avoid the mirror puzzles). You don't need raid gear to be able to do this either, but you also need some power in both gear, build, and personal skill and knowledge. One of my characters I do this with started out with only cannith crafted gear and a few named items from regular quests.

You can also step up your own game via multiboxing. It is permissible and supported, so long as you control each character individually (no one keyboard stroke for multiple characters at once). This means it takes longer to loot, but you get much more loot for yourself for the time invested. Many of the raids mentioned that are "never" run and need groups can actually be soloed/multiboxed. I know because I do this. Not from lack of groups though, but because on my main server some of the most prolific raiding guilds (in my experience with pugging with them for years) contain many elitist jerks that I'd rather never play with again. (examples: they'd put up LFMs then intentionally grief those who joined by locking them out of the raids end loot then verbally/in chat accosting them for not being one of them... and I've seen this happen multiple times; to getting on their mics and actually yelling at other players for not using in a specific build. Not because they screwed up, but because they didn't approve of the build. This happened to me once in Legendary Elite Shroud (before reaper was a thing), we were in hte first phase and the first portal wasn't even up and they started yelling (actually yelling) through their mics at me for being in the wrong build. The yelling didn't stop until the next phase when they all died and I was tanking all 4 red names while passing out rezzes. After that I vowed to never group with that guild again - even after they changed their name - and I would rather solo or not raid than play with people like that again... but rather than not raid, I taught myself to solo all the raids I wanted to run, and if I couldn't solo them, I learned how to multibox them. TotDW, FoTP, LShroud, L.Temptest Spine, and even the Curse of Strahd are all raids that I have soloed/boxed and completed (the only ones I haven't done solo/boxed yet are Baba, Riding the Storm Out, Killing Time and the Vault/Plane of Night...though I might be able to multibox VoN now that I think about it...the doors to the north would be the hardest part and would require my laptop and desktop, one hand on each), the extra time it takes is mitigated both by not having to wait for a group, and by getting multiple end chests worth of loot (for loot that can be passed... runes cannot be passed but named drops and mats can be)).

I'm NOT saying this is the solution game-wide. But it IS an option for those who feel they cannot raid due to never seeing an LFM for what they want. Put one up yourself and - for raids that do not lock right away - start working through them. There is no guarantee people will join late, but many times (again, in my experience) many people will join late. Sometimes they're finishing a quest they're currently in first, sometimes they just want the rewards without the work, but whatever the reason, I've seen many people join late for my runs when I put them up.

...

As for often not run raids in general, I still say a raid specific saga would be awesome. Some reward exclusive to that saga perhaps would definitely encourage raid-trains as it would require running each one once per reward hand in, plus there's the XP carry over for those working on epic past lives (prep the sagas, epic reincarnate, drink an XP pot, then accept all the sagas xp rewards for a boost/head start on your epic levels).

edit: I know the paragraph about multiboxing is the largest one, but I hope that's not the only takeaway people have from my post. I also talk about channels and starting your own LFMs and taking initiative, as well as additional rewards for raids that could be implemented via a new saga. :)

[Kilgrave]

Reduce or remove flagging, go back into old raids as you have done for Red Fens and Phiarlan Carnival and improve gear, this is the only thing that will get people interested in the old raids.

[hinton]

Reduce or remove flagging, go back into old raids as you have done for Red Fens and Phiarlan Carnival and improve gear, this is the only thing that will get people interested in the old raids.

If you redo the old ones just convert them to quests. Especially any Heroic raids.

End raids now

[spyder7723]

Some raids are run but by how much of the player base? Around 5% thats a lot of effort to create the content that will not be seen by most of the players. Like I said earlier most of us run solo or with 1-3 friends now. Raid are fine if the game is a raiding game DDO is no longer that game. It leaves a bad taste for the majority of players. We lose more players due to the elitism of raiders then we do from lack of raids.

I think you are way off on those numbers. I do not believe most players only run solo or with a couple friends. Perhaps in regular questing where a con dumped ham sandwich can zerg to 20, but those same players group up with their guild and friends twice a week and knock out a bunch of raids.

I agree completely with the poster above. If no lfms are up for the quest or raid you want to run then form your own and lead. If you aren't familiar enough with the quests and raids on ddo then get involved in your server and join a guild with an active player base. Basically, make an effort to increase your fun factor cause nobody is going to do it for you.

[tafla421]

Didn't they try that with the Spectral Dragon raid back in the old Mabar? Was a what, 24 person raid and was completely unplayable because of lag.

I believe the majority of the lag was because you had 4 separate rooms that monsters were targeting players in the other 3 and had no way to path to them. monster pathing when they cant find a way to you causes a ton of lag in any instance, have 10+ spectral dragon raids running at the same time and the server dies. that's why some groups waited 5 minutes to start and then had a relatively lag free run.

[hinton]

I think you are way off on those numbers. I do not believe most players only run solo or with a couple friends. Perhaps in regular questing where a con dumped ham sandwich can zerg to 20, but those same players group up with their guild and friends twice a week and knock out a bunch of raids.

I agree completely with the poster above. If no lfms are up for the quest or raid you want to run then form your own and lead. If you aren't familiar enough with the quests and raids on ddo then get involved in your server and join a guild with an active player base. Basically, make an effort to increase your fun factor cause nobody is going to do it for you.

Again like I said earlier look at who and tell me what percent of those raid. What percent of those will ever raid? Better to retain more of those then make the raiders happy.

[Kilgrave]

If you redo the old ones just convert them to quests. Especially any Heroic raids.

End raids now

Wrong give us more low level raids breaks up the grind of tr train. Raids are fun at all levels but if the gear sucks and the xp per min sucks why bother?

[vryxnr]

Again like I said earlier look at who and tell me what percent of those raid. What percent of those will ever raid? Better to retain more of those then make the raiders happy.

And for those who want to raid but feel like they can't for whatever reason, get involved, start your own lfm, be willing to ask for help/advice and make an effort to find those who do enjoy raiding. Heck, you may even find some who enjoy teaching raids who are not elitist jerks. You may even make some friends along the way. You may even find a new side of the game that you enjoy. Raids can be fun.

[spyder7723]

Again like I said earlier look at who and tell me what percent of those raid. What percent of those will ever raid? Better to retain more of those then make the raiders happy.


I did just that before posting my previous reply. Approximately 50% of the who panel is people in large active guilds. And that doesn't include any of those who have chosen to not show up on the who panel. Obviously i can't speak for all servers buy khyber has an active raiding community. You just won't see many lfms for them cause they fill them with their guild mates and friends. Heck almost every time i log into my capped toon to go gather tokens i get tells asking if i want to do this or that raid.

The point is, if you want to raid there is plenty of opportunity to do so, but if all you do is look at the lfm panel you will rarely see raids posted. The solution is to simply form your own or join an active guild.

[Cantor]

The truth is increasing raid size would not in general increase the fun or variety of grouping.

For most raids an increase in party size would just mean bring more DPS, it wouldn't bring any more engaging gameplay, just bigger hitpoints and more waiting to get a group together.

The spectral dragon only accomplished this somewhat because it had 4 separate rooms, and side areas to coordinate in each room. But if that was the format of every raid it would be tired and only an excuse to have that many people required.

[Paladin_of_Power]

Wrong give us more low level raids breaks up the grind of tr train. Raids are fun at all levels but if the gear sucks and the xp per min sucks why bother?

Agreed on all points. Especially the XP. Some of the best players I've rolled with refuse to run raids or quests that have a low experience per minute played ratio.

I was a bit perturbed that the Ravenloft pack did not have heroic raids.

Me and others I know jump on heroic tempest spine and plane of night raids whenever they pop up. Some people go bonkers when these lfms go up.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

From another thread:



I was thinking about this further. Maybe my suggested new runes idea could also be used to improve existing raid loot or maybe turn the runes in with old raid loot for better versions?

Lynnabel has shown SSG has the tech to do that with the Schism Shard turn-ins for better versions of Wave, Whelm, and Blackrazor. Why not do it for older raid loot as well?

Arkat, runes or artifacts. I agree with you on this. I've been suggesting the same (not sure I voiced it on the forum here)

Then create a great storyline/lore where the oldest raids contain some of the most powerful magic in the game, if it can be found. Not only boosting gear, but giving away scrolls that can be read, that may contain codes for free or discounted DDO Store loot such as free DDO points (great for F2P), inventory bags and slots, hearts, tomes, etc...

[Chai]

Raids make no sense in a game that is supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. It was always a bad idea to have raids.

What DnD game has ever had THIRTEEN people at a table?

Ever gone to a Gen Con 89-95? We used to run a table there with this kind of action. One of the feedback groups was formed precisely for the reason of testing the game with more players than the standard 4.

Also, you can have 4 players, each using multiple characters.

[gnarledmaw]

What DnD game has ever had THIRTEEN people at a table?

The summer of 81 we had 22 including DM strewn around the basement every weekend for 3 months. In that world we spent a lot of time taking on whole towns of kobolds and bugbear hordes on a frontier.

[DirkTyrant]

Raids make no sense in a game that is supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. It was always a bad idea to have raids.

What DnD game has ever had THIRTEEN people at a table?

my Wed night group has 12.... and they are kids... age 8 thru 14 (and 10 of them are girls)...

[MaeveTuohy]

and 10 of them are girls

Yay!

[Nickodeamous]

I like this thread alot. Honestly, I used to run Raids all of the time when people put LFMs up. Here is the issue though. Once you get that one shiny new item, you no longer have a desire to run the raid. It happened for me with several raids. I ran Leg Tempest Spine to death trying to get the celestial avenger outfit/Thunder Wraps. Once I had the runes, I bought it one of them and happened to luck out on a pull for the other. After that, I stopped putting up LFMs and have not really seen in run that often. Next I ran Shroud to Death to build some +++wraps. worth the effort, but again, nobody runs that raid any longer, and there is some good crafting from that one. Then, it was deathwyrm for Phlogs. I had to put up counteless LFMs just to finish my Thunderforge wraps, which of course are obsolete due to another raid that is pretty much dying out (Strahd). The carrots are out there during each raid for that shiny near piece of gear, but that will only get you so far until power creep kicks in and they create a better version, which basically kills the raid. Right now, thanks in part to the bird tree and 3rd monk nerf, I am trying to reroll my toon as purely wisdom based, but my problem is I need 3 new pieces of raid gear from strahd and Baba...I used to see those daily, but I see strahd raids now that have a hard time filling up. Why? cause the folks that run raids got what they need already, so they are back on the TR train.

Just my 2 cents.

Nico

[Niminae]

On the contrary, time to make more raids and for greater than 12 players [...]


Large raid groups only works for games that can handle large raid groups. It's a tautology, but it is true for DDO. The devs have said that people should be running with fewer than 12 people in order to combat lag, and I do not recall them ever retracting that statement. They aren't really good at that sort of thing, so it's possible they just forgot about their prior recommendation.

It is a matter of fact and history that designing raids without lag issues seems to be something that the devs find to be difficult or impossible. There is both predictable lag at specific points and seemingly random lag in a large number of raids in DDO, and even several design modifications have been unable to completely eliminate the issues. Defiler of the Just is probably the best example of this, but there are plenty of others.

[Niminae]

If the game is supposed to match the tabletop experience that closely, should it also prevent soloing?


Given that Gary Gygax used to run for single players frequently and across years of play, I don't think your point is as valid as you might like it to be.

[Niminae]

I hate that I can't finish my epic green steel items or the thunder-forged stuff because of how rarely those raids get run. I have been on and off DDO all day today and did not see one epic shroud or deathworm/thunderpeak.

Which means you didn't post one yourself. Maybe you ought to, you know, take the smallest possible first step required in getting a raid group formed if that's what you'd like to do with your online time?



And truthfully, most of the raids I really don't like anyway. Too many complicated rules. Dont stand here or you'll die. Dont stand over there or you die. Run for your life or you die. Don't hit that monster or you die. Hit that monster or you''ll die. Kill all these together or start over. Kill all of these apart or start over. I end up just following along most of the time and hoping I don't do something to get everyone killed.

So posting a LFM is too hard for you, and reading a wiki article or just listening to the raid leader explain how to do things is too hard for you. Maybe you should try Pokemon Go? I understand that's pretty easy.



So I log in and think, what can I do here at level 30? Check the LFMs. Nothing.

Maybe you could post a LFM? There's nothing preventing you from doing this except your own inertia.

[MaeveTuohy]

Given that Gary Gygax used to run for single players frequently and across years of play, I don't think your point is as valid as you might like it to be.


Thanks for supporting my point. Which was that neither pnp nor online versions of the game need to be held to a false standard of four to five players. Though less common (in pnp), there is room for soloing and there is room for larger groups.

Cheers.

[MaeveTuohy]

Large raid groups only works for games that can handle large raid groups. It's a tautology, but it is true for DDO. The devs have said that people should be running with fewer than 12 people in order to combat lag, and I do not recall them ever retracting that statement. They aren't really good at that sort of thing, so it's possible they just forgot about their prior recommendation.

It is a matter of fact and history that designing raids without lag issues seems to be something that the devs find to be difficult or impossible. There is both predictable lag at specific points and seemingly random lag in a large number of raids in DDO, and even several design modifications have been unable to completely eliminate the issues. Defiler of the Just is probably the best example of this, but there are plenty of others.

Yep.

[Singular]

From another thread:



I was thinking about this further. Maybe my suggested new runes idea could also be used to improve existing raid loot or maybe turn the runes in with old raid loot for better versions?

Lynnabel has shown SSG has the tech to do that with the Schism Shard turn-ins for better versions of Wave, Whelm, and Blackrazor. Why not do it for older raid loot as well?

If the tokens from all raids were interchangeable, then all raids would be relevant.

[Arkat]

If the tokens from all raids were interchangeable, then all raids would be relevant.

Can't disagree with that.

Interesting idea...

[digitaljc]

Raids make no sense in a game that is supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. It was always a bad idea to have raids.

What DnD game has ever had THIRTEEN people at a table?

+1

[Robbenklopper]

I suggest to create 1-2 saga-givers for Raids. This would be a big incentive for all Raids to be run imo. Especially when some good XP are rewarded. Imagine, besides the dailys-lfm there would be raid-lfms up! I would really hope for!

[Niminae]

If the tokens from all raids were interchangeable, then all raids would be relevant.

Not really. The raid considered easiest to complete would be run for the tokens, and then the gear from the raids considered to be more difficult to complete would be purchased using those tokens.

[Cantor]

Not really. The raid considered easiest to complete would be run for the tokens, and then the gear from the raids considered to be more difficult to complete would be purchased using those tokens.

Yup, static groups would shortman whatever they could and then trade for what they want. I know, because this is exactly what I would do.

[Chai]

Large raid groups only works for games that can handle large raid groups. It's a tautology, but it is true for DDO. The devs have said that people should be running with fewer than 12 people in order to combat lag, and I do not recall them ever retracting that statement. They aren't really good at that sort of thing, so it's possible they just forgot about their prior recommendation.

It is a matter of fact and history that designing raids without lag issues seems to be something that the devs find to be difficult or impossible. There is both predictable lag at specific points and seemingly random lag in a large number of raids in DDO, and even several design modifications have been unable to completely eliminate the issues. Defiler of the Just is probably the best example of this, but there are plenty of others.

If this is the case then they should design raids for 8 or 9 people rather than 12 (or pick a number that works) rather than tell people to run content balanced for 12 people with less than that.

Most of the previous raids can be run with less than that due to power creep, but future endgame content should be designed accordingly.

While there is a significant history of having lag in raids, there also should be a point in that history where the direction of development is altered to work around the issue if it cannot be resolved completely through coding and optimization.

Id be fine with a 6 person LShroud, and every raid since then, while designing future "endgame" content similar to Haunted Halls, TOEE, etc...

[Renvar]

Not really. The raid considered easiest to complete would be run for the tokens, and then the gear from the raids considered to be more difficult to complete would be purchased using those tokens.

This. Why run a raid like RSO for 30 minutes when you can breeze through Tempest Spine or Hound or FoTP on LE in 10 minutes for the same reward?

Finding the optimal path and running it into the ground is what metagamers do. Just ask the entrance to Amber Temple or Spies in the House or Rusted Blades (back in the day. ED farms! Yay!).

Some interchangability is good. Some BTA is good. Total BTA interchangability means only the optimal path will be used ad nauseum.

[GramercyRiff]

Ever gone to a Gen Con 89-95? We used to run a table there with this kind of action. One of the feedback groups was formed precisely for the reason of testing the game with more players than the standard 4.

Also, you can have 4 players, each using multiple characters.

I've done the multiple characters thing. It's pretty fun. My post about 13 never at a table was just a joke.

[Shadrar]

I've said this on another thread, but it's perinent here.

It isn't possible to keep old raids alive indefinitely, so you shouldn't try.

Instead, you should build in a way for those raids to be run by those who want to run them, even if no one else does.

I suggested a "Quest" difficulty before. It'd be like casual (no name drops, only half runes, half XP), but for a Raid. It'd be roughly as difficult as an elite quest of the same level, would allow Hirelings, would remove any multi-person obstacles (like levers in VoN5, just extend the timer window to about 5 minutes), and would allow re-entry.

Only add the "Quest" difficulty to Raids 2 updates after the Raid is released, and running it on "Quest" still puts you on a timer.

This allows dead raids to be ran by small groups (or solo players) who want to experience the content. It allows players who weren't here to dupe ingredients to make LGS and Thunderforge items. It still makes running the Raid on high difficulties the most efficient way to farm things, and ensures that leading-edge players don't have an easy button to figure it out on release day. It may also result in more Raid Bypass Timers being sold, as the rune payout is atrocious but some grouping-averse players will still farm it on this difficulty.

It would require rescaling each Raid to an easier difficulty (this should be trivial), adjusting some puzzles (this is likely harder), adding the token system to each Raid (this should have been done years ago), and adjusting some recipes (e.g. some runes should be tradable into Tier 3 LGS ingredients, as runes are all that drops, or special loot adjustments should be made to quests that primarily drop ingredients).

IMO this solution would make everybody happy.

[Tilomere]

If this is the case then they should design raids for 8 or 9 people rather than 12 (or pick a number that works) rather than tell people to run content balanced for 12 people with less than that.


I would run raids 5x as much if they could be soloed or if they had heroic equivalents that could be used for xp like von5. They should scale the raids into lower levels, add first time bonuses to drop rates and much better relative raid xp like von5, have better rxp/sentient xp at lower levels, and just abandon cap raiding. You have to keep adding a ton of content with continuously escalating stats for a minority of players to keep them happy, which then breaks game balance, and you end up with people farming easier and older R10s.

Then, to fix game balance, you have to screw up heroics all the way to level 1, since you can't take away the continuously escalated loot.

[Chai]

This. Why run a raid like RSO for 30 minutes when you can breeze through Tempest Spine or Hound or FoTP on LE in 10 minutes for the same reward?

Finding the optimal path and running it into the ground is what metagamers do. Just ask the entrance to Amber Temple or Spies in the House or Rusted Blades (back in the day. ED farms! Yay!).

Some interchangability is good. Some BTA is good. Total BTA interchangability means only the optimal path will be used ad nauseum.

Unless more raid chests can be had by doing more paths. They can do this by incorporating Haunted Halls and TOEE style design into raids. Much of this "OMG players will play in an undesired way!!!" stuff is easily fixed with good game design.

[Chai]

I would run raids 5x as much if they could be soloed or if they had heroic equivalents that could be used for xp like von5. They should scale the raids into lower levels, add first time bonuses to drop rates and better rxp/sentient xp at lower levels, and just abandon cap raiding.

This would undermine the entire revenue system (as lack of true cap endgame already does). Theres no reason to purchase faster grind for character power, or buy it straight cash, if theres nothing to use it on when its maxed out.


You have to keep adding a ton of content for a minority of players to keep them happy.

This is more true of the reincarnation grind folks than it is of the cap endgame folks. The issue is not the number of raids. The issue is the new raid invalidates previous raid loot, and there are specific example of new quest loot doing this as well.

The only reason its a minority of players nowdays, is due to heavy attrition in cap level players. Theres already enough reincarnation grind (many say too much) to keep people TRing for years to come. Time to build up that endgame and provide a reason to desire actual powerful characters at cap.

[Renvar]

Unless more raid chests can be had by doing more paths. They can do this by incorporating Haunted Halls and TOEE style design into raids. Much of this "OMG players will play in an undesired way!!!" stuff is easily fixed with good game design.

I agree. Or rather than having one single currency, maintain multiple currencies that can be exchanged and control the exchange rate. If Hound, TS, MOD, and FoTP can be run in 10 minutes, let them turn in raid runes at a rate of 1 to 1 for Legendary Souls. Then set 20 minute quests, like DoJ and Wyrm at 2 LS for 1 rune. Then set LShroud, RSO, Baba, and Strahd at 3 to 1. Now you have balanced the length with the rewards.

That's just one solution with its own pros and cons. There are multiple solutions possible. Just pointing out that complete transferrability comes with its own set of pitfalls that would need to be considered. It isn't a slam dunk easy change.

[Chai]

I agree. Or rather than having one single currency, maintain multiple currencies that can be exchanged and control the exchange rate. If Hound, TS, MOD, and FoTP can be run in 10 minutes, let them turn in raid runes at a rate of 1 to 1 for Legendary Souls. Then set 20 minute quests, like DoJ and Wyrm at 2 LS for 1 rune. Then set LShroud, RSO, Baba, and Strahd at 3 to 1. Now you have balanced the length with the rewards.

That's just one solution with its own pros and cons. There are multiple solutions possible. Just pointing out that complete transferrability comes with its own set of pitfalls that would need to be considered. It isn't a slam dunk easy change.

This is presumably how they balance XP. Sure people find ways to run those quests faster and some become popular "daily" runs, but I'm not worried about how others play, or the outliers. For every wiz king there are tons of other examples where xp is balanced better. If the people who plow wiz kind 2x per day (same people who plowed impossible demands to farm EDs) want to plow one raid repeatedly that would require more timer bypass than those of us who would rather run them once and done in a 3 day cycle, or whatever our disposable time allows.

[Arkat]

This. Why run a raid like RSO for 30 minutes when you can breeze through Tempest Spine or Hound or FoTP on LE in 10 minutes for the same reward?

The answer to this issue is easy: Make it so fewer tokens drop in the easier raids.

[Singular]

Yup, static groups would shortman whatever they could and then trade for what they want. I know, because this is exactly what I would do.

Well the raids don't have to provide identical numbers of the tokens, just that they're interchangeable. Shorter raids could provide less. Also, given that each raid has a 3 day lockout, it wouldn't make much difference except that people would eventually be able to get gear from raids that are either hard to run or hard to join lfms for, because of guild runs, etc.

[Fjir]

Well the raids don't have to provide identical numbers of the tokens, just that they're interchangeable. Shorter raids could provide less. Also, given that each raid has a 3 day lockout, it wouldn't make much difference except that people would eventually be able to get gear from raids that are either hard to run or hard to join lfms for, because of guild runs, etc.

Never mind the fact that there are probably umpteen thousands of duped heroic raid timers out there. As long as we don't acknowledge that elephant in the room we should be OK!

Sarcasm aside I would not be surprised if older raids would actually be run more regularly if they swapped the S/S/S system to a rune system for both epic and heroic, and changed the entrances to heroic HoX/VoD/Titan to be similar to LHoX (and remove the flagging for Titan).

I know I for one would love to get a Torc, epic ROSS, or a Tharne's, for example, for certain characters to be used when playing X classes during a TR.

[noinfo]

I would run raids 5x as much if they could be soloed or if they had heroic equivalents that could be used for xp like von5. They should scale the raids into lower levels, add first time bonuses to drop rates and much better relative raid xp like von5, have better rxp/sentient xp at lower levels, and just abandon cap raiding. You have to keep adding a ton of content with continuously escalating stats for a minority of players to keep them happy, which then breaks game balance, and you end up with people farming easier and older R10s.

Then, to fix game balance, you have to screw up heroics all the way to level 1, since you can't take away the continuously escalated loot.


While alot of raids should offer better xp in general not first time bonus, there is enough easy content for levelers. I am finding alot of people want to try raids and move out of their leveling comfort zones. The new changes provided in the other thread should encourage those opportunities to those people who want to try it. I know people like to feel uber in leveling content but raids provide a different and rewarding playstyle.

Less content should be soloable not more, if people can solo it great but not by design.

[Niminae]

(and remove the flagging for Titan)


Huh? This is the only old-school raid where they got the flagging right! Flagging is once-and-done, as long as you keep your Sigil of Dal-Quor. They only recently streamlined the flagging for Ascension Chamber to be somewhat similar to how Titan works.

The real issue(s) with Titan is how the mechanics make it easy to fail with just a little bit of lag, and how the mechanics make it somehow a good thing to park most of the raid group on a ladder where they do nothing while 3-4 people complete the raid for them.