Blinding speed ranged

[Elindel22]

Hi.

On the wiki, it states that blinding speed gives
22% ranged attack speed. On the blinding speed feat
icon when you get it it says 15% only.

On the character sheet, it says 22%.

This is all very confusing.

Checked out a few older posts, and no one seems
to give a clear cut answer.

So... does blinding speed give 22% ranged alacrity or only
15% ?

Thanks

[Yamani]

Hi.

On the wiki, it states that blinding speed gives
22% ranged attack speed. On the blinding speed feat
icon when you get it it says 15% only.

On the character sheet, it says 22%.

This is all very confusing.

Checked out a few older posts, and no one seems
to give a clear cut answer.

So... does blinding speed give 22% ranged alacrity or only
15% ?

Thanks
Your character sheet is right. The feat is wrong atm.

[Aced]

Your character sheet is right. The feat is wrong atm.

Proof? Sorry, but I only take this as you think it is this way. It needs DEV clarification so we can always go back to it and say see, the dev said so.

[Cantor]

Hi.

On the wiki, it states that blinding speed gives
22% ranged attack speed. On the blinding speed feat
icon when you get it it says 15% only.

On the character sheet, it says 22%.

This is all very confusing.

Checked out a few older posts, and no one seems
to give a clear cut answer.

So... does blinding speed give 22% ranged alacrity or only
15% ?

Thanks

Ranged ghas a firing and load animation. It only affects the firing animation so it gives more to be closer to what melee gets.

[SerPounce]

Proof? Sorry, but I only take this as you think it is this way. It needs DEV clarification so we can always go back to it and say see, the dev said so.

It's been tested in the past and blinding speed gave a faster attack speed than haste or 15% ranged alacrity. You can probably find it somewhere on these forums, but they're a pain to search so I'm not going to do it.

The last test I know of was awhile ago so it's possible things have changed. The only way to know for sure is to go test it yourself. It's very unlikely the devs would weigh in on this because while I don't know if it's a "bug" exactly it's the like of unintentional inconsistency that they don't usually want to take a position on.

[Aced]

It's been tested in the past and blinding speed gave a faster attack speed than haste or 15% ranged alacrity. You can probably find it somewhere on these forums, but they're a pain to search so I'm not going to do it.

The last test I know of was awhile ago so it's possible things have changed. The only way to know for sure is to go test it yourself. It's very unlikely the devs would weigh in on this because while I don't know if it's a "bug" exactly it's the like of unintentional inconsistency that they don't usually want to take a position on.

I prefer to ask the devs. It is kind of their job and all. Plus, I don't get paid enough to test for them.

[acemonkey]

I prefer to ask the devs. It is kind of their job and all. Plus, I don't get paid enough to test for them.

If they can't be bothered to change incorrect information on tooltips that's been known about forever, why do you think they're going to respond to each and every forum question about said incorrect information, especially when a player has already given the correct response?

BTW, seriously doubt being pestered on the forum is in the DDO developer job description, that's more a community manager job, and I guarantee you they have discretion on which posts they feel like answering when they come here in their free time.

[Lynnabel]

which posts they feel like answering when they come here in their free time.

Mostly I just pick ones that seem like problems I can solve.

I'm pretty sure the haste and haste-likes are set up to work around the reloading animation. I think, mechanically, it works out to be about the same.

[Gratch]

haste-likes

When is DDO getting a LIKE button we can click on party members' icons so we can LIKE when they give us haste?

Seems super important for update 87. Then can see how liked I am at InstaDDOBookSnap.ddo.com/<server-name>/<first-char-name>

Also and this is just a side request... a dump of the character sheet and inventory... but put that unessential stuff way below my LIKES number.

/waves

[Grace_ana]

Proof? Sorry, but I only take this as you think it is this way. It needs DEV clarification so we can always go back to it and say see, the dev said so.

It is 22% for ranged, 15% for melee. The ranged speed was bumped up to compensate for animations, as Lynnabel said above. This is all in other threads and has been for years, including lot of detailed testing. Vets know this, which is why it was answered. But if you prefer, you can sit and wait for other answers.

OP, blinding speed is the only way to get sustained 22% on a ranged toon. Items don't go higher than 15%. The haste spell is pretty short acting, so it's not as worthwhile.

[unbongwah]

So... does blinding speed give 22% ranged alacrity or only
15% ?
In a way, it's both.

Ranged Alacrity bonuses apply to the reloading animation of ranged weapons but not the firing animation. [...or is it the other way around? Whatever.] So in order to provide +15% to your overall ranged attack speed, Blinding Speed is equivalent to ~22% Ranged Alacrity. So sometimes things will say it provides "+15% attack speed" and other times it says it provides "22% Ranged Alacrity" because they're the same net effect expressed in different ways.

If you exclusively use eSapphire Sting (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sapphire_Sting), you can skip Blinding Speed because 25% > 22% Ranged Alacrity, obviously. But for any other epic longbow you'll want the feat.

[SerPounce]

Mostly I just pick ones that seem like problems I can solve.

I'm pretty sure the haste and haste-likes are set up to work around the reloading animation. I think, mechanically, it works out to be about the same.

Are you saying that blinding speed and ranged alacrity items work differently in that ranged alacrity applies to both animations while blinding speed applies only to the firing? Because right now blinding speed and armor of speed (arty) say they give 22% speed bonus on the character sheet while ranged alacrity/speed items (and I think haste spell?) only say they give 15%.

The conventional wisdom in the community has been that if you want that 7% attack speed bonus you have to take the feat (unless you're an artificer or use sapphire sting), and testing has supported this (not done personally).

If this is incorrect and they actually come out about the same because they apply to different animations that would be news.

[Grace_ana]

Are you saying that blinding speed and ranged alacrity items work differently in that ranged alacrity applies to both animations while blinding speed applies only to the firing? Because right now blinding speed and armor of speed (arty) say they give 22% speed bonus on the character sheet while ranged alacrity/speed items (and I think haste spell?) only say they give 15%.

The conventional wisdom in the community has been that if you want that 7% attack speed bonus you have to take the feat (unless you're an artificer or use sapphire sting), and testing has supported this (not done personally).

If this is incorrect and they actually come out about the same because they apply to different animations that would be news.

It's not news. Blinding Speed is 7% faster than a 15% item. They both apply to the same parts of the animation. She's noting why Blinding Speed was buffed to 22% for ranged. Ranged alacrity items simply can't be found higher than 15%.

[Lynnabel]

(unless you're an artificer or use sapphire sting)

*scribbles down "put ranged alacrity on more bows" in notes*

[Algreg]

Proof? Sorry, but I only take this as you think it is this way. It needs DEV clarification so we can always go back to it and say see, the dev said so.

I think what you meant to say is "thanks for taking the time to answer. For confirmation, I would like to hear from a dev too"

[janave]

*scribbles down "put ranged alacrity on more bows" in notes*

Nope!

Please put it on quivers instead. It takes up an effect slot on a 2 handed weapon which is already weaker by proxy compared to other ranged builds. Edit: Quivers should carry mostly bow only effects, rarely stuff that procs on shurikens and xbows..., they already have offhand items to work with

Bow base profiles should be stronger than shurikens, repeaters. Effects should be interesting for existing and maybe future builds.

Examples:

Ki++ on shot or on crit.
Temporary ranged boost on vorpal.
Hamstring on shot.

Other good CC, DPS enhancing effects.

[Requiro]

*scribbles down "put ranged alacrity on more bows" in notes*

Noo!! Please!

When you add ranged alacrity on bows you block one space for other useful enhancements.

But you can add it on rings, glows, bracers or quivers.

Quivers are preferred because we don't have lot's of quivers that are useful.

[HuneyMunster]

Is Blinding Speed still bugged to not give the 1% dodge it should?

[Dragavon]

Noo!! Please!

When you add ranged alacrity on bows you block one space for other useful enhancements.

But you can add it on rings, glows, bracers or quivers.

Quivers are preferred because we don't have lot's of quivers that are useful.

So much this :)

Adding ranged alacricity to the purified quiver would make it perfect :cool:

[Rykka]

Mostly I just pick ones that seem like problems I can solve.

I'm pretty sure the haste and haste-likes are set up to work around the reloading animation. I think, mechanically, it works out to be about the same.

Yeah. Haste (the spell) used to give the same +22 bonus as the feat Blinding Speed to account for the reloading animation. I'm not sure why the spell was changed. The spell currently grants about a +10% attack speed while Blinding Speed grants about +15%.

FWIW, the Action Boost Hasteboost (that only recently started working at all for ranged) claims to have a 10/20/30% boost on attacks but on Ranged grants about 2/3rds that value.

As you noted, this is all because the reloading animation isn't increased by attack speed bonuses.

[Qhualor]

*scribbles down "put ranged alacrity on more bows" in notes*

Add me to the no please list. It should be on quivers and gear, not weapons.

[Cantor]

Add me to the no please list. It should be on quivers and gear, not weapons.

please.

Or even better: change crafted scaling so that you get equivalent speed increase from alacrity. If it takes 22 ranged alacrity to equal 15 melee, make crafting scale so it hits 22 ranged when melee hits 15. (ML20 I think?)

[cdbd3rd]

Add me to the no please list. It should be on quivers and gear, not weapons.

Yep, yep. Quivers would be the winningest spot for it - and thematically fitting, where the faster firing comes from increasing the efficiency of supplying ammo to the weapon.

[Eelpout]

Yep, yep. Quivers would be the winningest spot for it - and thematically fitting, where the faster firing comes from increasing the efficiency of supplying ammo to the weapon.

Very much agree here. Putting it on bows takes up a spot and makes them overall less effective even with 3 other good enhancements. I don't see folks asking for melee weapons having melee alacrity pinned on them, bows should be thought of the same way when being designed, in my opinion.

[Tyrande]

*scribbles down "put ranged alacrity on more bows" in notes*

Lynnabel,

Maybe put it on quivers so that all bows can enjoy the benefit and make it not work for anything other than a bow?

Or if you can make that ranged alacrity 25% effect not taking up an effect on that new bow; but that new bow is going to be the go-to bow for all bow users all cases.

[Lynnabel]

Blargh, putting something like that on a quiver would be super way too strong. Quivers (with two obvious exceptions) are meant to be a small bonus or none at all.

[Eelpout]

Blargh, putting something like that on a quiver would be super way too strong. Quivers (with two obvious exceptions) are meant to be a small bonus or none at all.

Perhaps there could be a named quiver that gives an insightful bonus to ranged instead of an enhancement bonus? Even if it were between 2% and 5%. Thoughts?

[Neo-Masamune]

Blargh, putting something like that on a quiver would be super way too strong. Quivers (with two obvious exceptions) are meant to be a small bonus or none at all.



There is the quiver of allacrity... and Pinion is by far the best bow in the game at least for me... That 20% Ranged Allacrity makes a lot of difference! Maybe the feat description need to be updated? i like the 20%+ boost on any bow! even if its near end game! But would need to change armor of speed spell too, and haste also!

[janave]

Perhaps there could be a named quiver that gives an insightful bonus to ranged instead of an enhancement bonus? Even if it were between 2% and 5%. Thoughts?

We would have to understand how much exactly the effect means. Is it for firing, reloading and projectile travel speed? How does it relate to BaB if at all? How does it work with clicked attacks, do we get the full effect or it only gains 100% of the speed increase with auto attack ?

I have the feeling the effect is quite a bit less than a flat % in the description. :).


Edit: typing is hard

[blerkington]

Blargh, putting something like that on a quiver would be super way too strong. Quivers (with two obvious exceptions) are meant to be a small bonus or none at all.

I am curious about why this is the case. This sounds very much like another one of these 'rules' that is a rule except when it isn't.

I don't see anything special about quivers that means they shouldn't be the same as items that go into other gear slots. It might make more sense if only ranged builds, or even just certain ranged builds, could benefit from using a quiver but that's not how the game currently works.

Thanks.

[Razor_Wit]

Blargh, putting something like that on a quiver would be super way too strong. Quivers (with two obvious exceptions) are meant to be a small bonus or none at all.

Why? Because someone said so 12 years ago? Whats the rationale? Has it been discussed by the new team?

[Lynnabel]

Why?

We're just trying to avoid another Quiver of Alacrity scenario, in which one item has the highest possible usable stat and therefore can never be eclipsed unless we make the same item again with the same singular bonus + more effects. Run speed doesn't go higher than 30% on items, so when something hits 30% run speed, anything less is useless and in order to make another compelling item to encourage different gear sets for different scenarios, the only way to create options is to just add more effects. I wear my Quiver of Alacrity from level 1 to 30 on most lives, but having gear like that in the game makes it hard to put together new and fun items.

Ranged attack speed of that level is found in two places - bows and an epic feat. If we put that level of ranged alacrity somewhere else, it effectively gives a free epic feat to ranged characters. Quivers are thematically ranged, and putting melee bonuses on them doesn't make any sense, so we can't really make a "melee quiver" to give non-ranged players the same experience of a piece of gear replacing a build choice.

[janave]

Quivers are thematically ranged, and putting melee bonuses on them doesn't make any sense, so we can't really make a "melee quiver" to give non-ranged players the same experience of a piece of gear replacing a build choice.

It is thematically supplementing the use of Bows :)

It could hold other generic bonuses for every other build, non Bow users get supplement gear elsewhere, rune arms, offhand items for throwers.

If you insist on packing "not just Bow stuff" on quivers, generic or defensive stats may work.

This would be another good time to listen to players... i think there is a missing context understanding here on your part, mainly that repeating xbows and shurikens completely dominate Bow builds right now.

[Yamani]

We're just trying to avoid another Quiver of Alacrity scenario, in which one item has the highest possible usable stat and therefore can never be eclipsed unless we make the same item again with the same singular bonus + more effects. Run speed doesn't go higher than 30% on items, so when something hits 30% run speed, anything less is useless and in order to make another compelling item to encourage different gear sets for different scenarios, the only way to create options is to just add more effects. I wear my Quiver of Alacrity from level 1 to 30 on most lives, but having gear like that in the game makes it hard to put together new and fun items.

Ranged attack speed of that level is found in two places - bows and an epic feat. If we put that level of ranged alacrity somewhere else, it effectively gives a free epic feat to ranged characters. Quivers are thematically ranged, and putting melee bonuses on them doesn't make any sense, so we can't really make a "melee quiver" to give non-ranged players the same experience of a piece of gear replacing a build choice.

Would it be possible to make it a bows only buff on the quiver then? Shurikens get access to offhand buffs, and xbows generally get access rune arms, great xbows are super buffed in mechanic tree! Also most of the ranged attack forms get access to multiple attack speed increases feats while bows only really get 1.

[Lynnabel]

repeating xbows and shurikens completely dominate Bow builds right now

Yes, this is why putting ranged alacrity on a quiver instead of a bow wouldn't help. Generic Ranged Alacrity beyond what is already available on a non-bow would mean that ranged weapons that thrive off of an already increased attack/proc rate would benefit disproportionately.

In the past, trying to make quivers for bows only was very unpopular. technically, they hold bolts, too, so it doesn't make sense to lock out Crossbows, which already beat Bows in attack rate.

[Tyrande]

Yes, this is why putting ranged alacrity on a quiver instead of a bow wouldn't help. Generic Ranged Alacrity beyond what is already available on a non-bow would push ranged weapons that thrive off of an already increased attack/proc rate would benefit disproportionately.

So, what would be the solution(s) to this problem?
Yes, I have observed my runs on reaper 5->7 that a repeating xbow/shuriken user having 3 to 5 times the DPS of a bow user with the same Epic Destiny and twists, same Morning Lord weapon(s) except that its a light repeating crossbow versus a longbow.

Making bows having 5 special effects (including one free for alacrity) equivalent in ML to other ranged weapons having 4 special effects?

[Lynnabel]

So, what would be the solution(s) to this problem?

That's an interesting discussion to have. Ideally, each individual weapon type in DDO would have *something* to differentiate it from the others - either by a class/race feature or by virtue of its proficiency requirements and damage dice.

[janave]

Okay, I think i get it now, but I am not sure non-devs will get it. Maybe you guys dont want to wrap extra logic on equipping the quiver... :)

Edit: How about giving it to arrows? Can it work only on Bows? Then we can give quivers a conjure arrows 1/day ability ?

[SerPounce]

Ranged attack speed of that level is found in two places - bows and an epic feat. If we put that level of ranged alacrity somewhere else, it effectively gives a free epic feat to ranged characters. Quivers are thematically ranged, and putting melee bonuses on them doesn't make any sense, so we can't really make a "melee quiver" to give non-ranged players the same experience of a piece of gear replacing a build choice.

So to be clear you're saying that blinding speed giving a higher bonus than haste or speed XV is WAI? I've always assumed this was an unintentional inconsistency. Why doesn't it give more speed to melee also? Wouldn't the above logic apply as well to melee?

[Lynnabel]

So to be clear you're saying that blinding speed giving a higher bonus than haste or speed XV is WAI? I've always assumed this was an unintentional inconsistency. Why doesn't it give more speed to melee also? Wouldn't the above logic apply as well to melee?

The higher speed is to compensate for the reload animation. It comes out to the same % increase for melee and ranged, even though the alacrity % is different. Ranged needs a higher alacrity amount to match the 1:1 ratio of alacrity to attack speed that melee gets.

[Qhualor]

We're just trying to avoid another Quiver of Alacrity scenario, in which one item has the highest possible usable stat and therefore can never be eclipsed unless we make the same item again with the same singular bonus + more effects. Run speed doesn't go higher than 30% on items, so when something hits 30% run speed, anything less is useless and in order to make another compelling item to encourage different gear sets for different scenarios, the only way to create options is to just add more effects. I wear my Quiver of Alacrity from level 1 to 30 on most lives, but having gear like that in the game makes it hard to put together new and fun items.

Ranged attack speed of that level is found in two places - bows and an epic feat. If we put that level of ranged alacrity somewhere else, it effectively gives a free epic feat to ranged characters. Quivers are thematically ranged, and putting melee bonuses on them doesn't make any sense, so we can't really make a "melee quiver" to give non-ranged players the same experience of a piece of gear replacing a build choice.

I'm still not getting it.

The Quiver of Alacrity has striding on it. It's a low level useful item until you can equip a speed item that is equivalent, but it has an added bonus for attack speed. Striding stopped being useful for melee past low levels when speed was introduced. Fairly recently I have noticed some named gear with Striding, but again, doesn't hold up to speed.

As a melee player that also plays a Tempest ranger that situationally uses bows, I would not be upset in the slightest if there was ranged alacrity on quivers. It would only be semi useful for a melee player when, except in specific class and race situations, melee aren't investing for ranged dps. Melee's tend to range to pull mobs, hit levers or to kill perched mobs they can't get to. Even the weakest ranged build should be outperforming these melee.

Quivers for melee is basically to save backpack space so bolts and arrows take up 1 slot rather than 20 while out questing. If there was something better out there for melee I would use something else, but I do also use the Quiver of Alacrity up to level 30. Again, the benefits of the quiver are virtually lost past the low levels. In TOD it was nice while wearing the boots of anchoring, but those days are gone.

Unless you want to put ranged alacrity as a free slot on bows, I see no reason why it can't go on quivers. Maybe I'm missing something here.

[SerPounce]

The higher speed is to compensate for the reload animation. It comes out to the same % increase for melee and ranged, even though the alacrity % is different. Ranged needs a higher alacrity amount to match the 1:1 ratio of alacrity to attack speed that melee gets.

So why doesn't haste spell and speed XV items give a higher bonus to ranged?

[Lynnabel]

So why doesn't haste spell and speed XV items give a higher bonus to ranged?

They're not meant to give the same effective increase in DPS. Ranged Power amounts from Filigree set bonuses and EDs are lower than melee power for roughly the same reason. Blinding Speed is the exception, and tries to give both melee and ranged the same effective increase in attack rate by compensating for the reload animation.

[Grace_ana]

I've always assumed this was an unintentional inconsistency.

Well, you know what happens when you assu.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Yes, this is why putting ranged alacrity on a quiver instead of a bow wouldn't help. Generic Ranged Alacrity beyond what is already available on a non-bow would mean that ranged weapons that thrive off of an already increased attack/proc rate would benefit disproportionately.

In the past, trying to make quivers for bows only was very unpopular. technically, they hold bolts, too, so it doesn't make sense to lock out Crossbows, which already beat Bows in attack rate.


I would imagine this has been a real tough spot for you all.

I read all the posts and your input, then went to read up on stuff to get a better picture of this. Funny how one item, effect in or on one thing can effect an entire style of play and game mechanic.

[SerPounce]

They're not meant to give the same effective increase in DPS. Ranged Power amounts from Filigree set bonuses and EDs are lower than melee power for roughly the same reason. Blinding Speed is the exception, and tries to give both melee and ranged the same effective increase in attack rate by compensating for the reload animation.

Still seems like an odd decision to me, but it's nice to know it's intentional. At the very least the description of blinding speed should be changed to not say "permanently hasted" and instead list the bonuses since it's not the same as having haste spell effect.

[Lynnabel]

Still seems like an odd decision to me, but it's nice to know it's intentional. At the very least the description of blinding speed should be changed to not say "permanently hasted" and instead list the bonuses since it's not the same as having haste spell effect.

In a perfect world it'd also give you that missing 1% dodge, too :P

Fixed it for you guys, dodge included :)

[Fnordian]

Blargh, putting something like that on a quiver would be super way too strong. Quivers (with two obvious exceptions) are meant to be a small bonus or none at all.


More magic quivers in general could add a bit of nice variety. How about putting some clickies on them for low level loot? (Or higher level if they're especially good clickies.)

[Razor_Wit]

I am imagining a guard effect on a quiver...could be multiple effects like alacrity, ins. alacrity, extra bolt, extra arrow.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Still seems like an odd decision to me, but it's nice to know it's intentional. At the very least the description of blinding speed should be changed to not say "permanently hasted" and instead list the bonuses since it's not the same as having haste spell effect.

yup

[HuneyMunster]

Yes, this is why putting ranged alacrity on a quiver instead of a bow wouldn't help. Generic Ranged Alacrity beyond what is already available on a non-bow would mean that ranged weapons that thrive off of an already increased attack/proc rate would benefit disproportionately.

In the past, trying to make quivers for bows only was very unpopular. technically, they hold bolts, too, so it doesn't make sense to lock out Crossbows, which already beat Bows in attack rate.

How about a Quiver that gives you boxing glove arrow?

https://78.media.tumblr.com/a807ace11afb2304c65c64627a38ffe3/tumblr_nezl2cuzc81rl26cwo2_500.jpg

[vms4ever]

In the past, trying to make quivers for bows only was very unpopular. technically, they hold bolts, too, so it doesn't make sense to lock out Crossbows, which already beat Bows in attack rate.

I normally play artificer (meaning repeating crossbow), but, it is WRONG that crossbows have a higher attack rate than bows. (Okay repeating crossbows you might be able to make a good argument that they should be faster but non-repeating crossbows should be slower than bows.)

*grumble, grumble, grumble*

[Arkat]

How about a Quiver that gives you boxing glove arrow?

https://78.media.tumblr.com/a807ace11afb2304c65c64627a38ffe3/tumblr_nezl2cuzc81rl26cwo2_500.jpg

http://ddowiki.com/images/Epic_Purifying_Quiver.jpg

[jimcricket]

Just a few weeks ago the new pack named loot was revealed. A few people who still actually bother to use longbows spoke out suggesting the sniper bow needs a better crit range. You know like a sniper bow....

Now just a few weeks later you point out you are aware xbows are owning ranged combat but are not sure what to do about it, lol.

I really can not say how disappointed i was with the new bows. I really thought there was a chance you was gonna listen and started to look forward to the new pack.
now I'm just gutted 4 new bows if you include heroic and epic versions not one with better crit range none worth using for any of my builds. Might be nice for other builds to pick up and use in a pinch but a actual bow for rangers is well well over due. In my opinion sapphire sting was last good bow..been out a bit now huh. and we have 2 bow worth using for the whole of epic levels, come on!

Sure more new loot is always on the way but I think this one deserves retro fitting, it was that bad of a mistake.

Low level version keen is fine, but the epic version should have had improved crit range without keen.

I might even get the pack then..if not I don't think I will as every time I see the new bow it'll hurt.

[Aced]

Yes, this is why putting ranged alacrity on a quiver instead of a bow wouldn't help. Generic Ranged Alacrity beyond what is already available on a non-bow would mean that ranged weapons that thrive off of an already increased attack/proc rate would benefit disproportionately.

In the past, trying to make quivers for bows only was very unpopular. technically, they hold bolts, too, so it doesn't make sense to lock out Crossbows, which already beat Bows in attack rate.

There was someone else who had the suggestion putting bonuses on arrows. A fun way to do that could be to have more bows like the one from the Baba raid that conjures a specialized arrow like the frozen terror arrow. You can add more effects and it won't help other types of ranged.

[apep1412]

More magic quivers in general could add a bit of nice variety. How about putting some clickies on them for low level loot? (Or higher level if they're especially good clickies.)

That would be a great troll by the devs. Double-clicking a quiver opens it; using a quiver from a hotbar opens it. There's no way to activate a clickie on a quiver.

[sephiroth1084]

Okay, I think i get it now, but I am not sure non-devs will get it. Maybe you guys dont want to wrap extra logic on equipping the quiver... :)

Edit: How about giving it to arrows? Can it work only on Bows? Then we can give quivers a conjure arrows 1/day ability ?


That would be a great troll by the devs. Double-clicking a quiver opens it; using a quiver from a hotbar opens it. There's no way to activate a clickie on a quiver.

Maybe make a quiver that auto-generates a stack of returning arrows with X bonus on them (alacrity, for this discussion). You'd need only equip it and fire once to load the arrows.

[Fnordian]

That would be a great troll by the devs. Double-clicking a quiver opens it; using a quiver from a hotbar opens it. There's no way to activate a clickie on a quiver.

Oops!

(I never put a quiver on a hotbar before. Thanks for pointing this out.)

[janave]

That would be a great troll by the devs. Double-clicking a quiver opens it; using a quiver from a hotbar opens it. There's no way to activate a clickie on a quiver.

Maybe a good opportunity to fix that too? Ive always found this counter intuitive, I remember trying to swap quivers at one point. Thanks for the reminder.

It is probably technically a "bag", instead of just interfacing bag functionality.

[noobodyfool]

How bout a quiver that’s gives melee alacrity

[Requiro]

That's an interesting discussion to have. Ideally, each individual weapon type in DDO would have *something* to differentiate it from the others - either by a class/race feature or by virtue of its proficiency requirements and damage dice.

I totally agree. For Bows users only, some ideas:

Race, Elf - +1 stacking damage and to-hit from level 1 on all bows (minor buff)
Race, Elf - improve critical profile on Tier 4 Race Enhancements (Aerenal for Longbow, Valenar for Shortbow) (could be OP?)
Enhancements - AA improvements - Change non stacking bonuses to stacking one on Core 1 and T5 Runebow (small buff)
Enhancements - AA improvements - Add 1% stacking ranged alacrity on each Core when you hold Bow (total 6% with all AA Core) (could be also OP?)
Add 5th/6th property on Named Bows (to compensate lack of additional slot-improvement-stuff like Runearm for crossbows, and offhand slot for one-hand throwers) OR
Allow use of handwarp for Ranger class similar to Runearm for Artificers as off hand weapon (problem will be find some good handwarps for ranged toon, but that problem for future) (something new here!)




Yes, this is why putting ranged alacrity on a quiver instead of a bow wouldn't help. Generic Ranged Alacrity beyond what is already available on a non-bow would mean that ranged weapons that thrive off of an already increased attack/proc rate would benefit disproportionately.

In the past, trying to make quivers for bows only was very unpopular. technically, they hold bolts, too, so it doesn't make sense to lock out Crossbows, which already beat Bows in attack rate.

If Generic Ranged Alacrity (or other Generic Boosts) is the problem, then why not made some quivers Bow (arrow) use only? Of course some Non-bow user will be unhappy, but com'on - it's the same like other buff to fighting style - someone ALWAYS will be unhappy.


In a perfect world it'd also give you that missing 1% dodge, too :P

Fixed it for you guys, dodge included :)

Thanks! :) You’re the best.

[edrein]

I totally agree. For Bows users only, some ideas:

Allow use of handwarp for Ranger class similar to Runearm for Artificers as off hand weapon (problem will be find some good handwarps for ranged toon, but that problem for future) (something new here!)



A neat idea but how would it cross-function with melee rangers? There's a whole... Animation issue. Would a ranger suddenly use the SWF animations albeit slower while maintaining TWF style offhand procs? At the same time, would it be wise to go back and code this new idea to work for swashbucklers using Dashing Scoundrel?

I definitely like the idea for ranged. But I wouldn't mind seeing how it would also work for melee rangers and by extension perhaps swashbuckler.

[Silverleafeon]

/thanks for all the Dev talk in this thread!

[Ravand]

In a perfect world it'd also give you that missing 1% dodge, too :P

Fixed it for you guys, dodge included :)

Praise the Flame, thank you!

[cdbd3rd]

Blargh, putting something like that on a quiver would be super way too strong. Quivers (with two obvious exceptions) are meant to be a small bonus or none at all.

https://i.gifer.com/BdrG.gif


(I am actually reading the follow-ups, tho still not totally convinced a small bonus on quivers would be catastrophic.)

[cdbd3rd]

How bout a quiver that’s gives melee alacrity

Only if you're smacking the mob with your quiver. :D

[Vish]

Op quivers

Archers need the love
;)

[Kalapurka]

@Lynnabel

How about a quiver that only gives an alacrity bonus to Bows.

[Graskitch]

sorry to go off-topic: speaking of quivers, is there any chance that you can look into making this quiver available for us?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Seeker_Tap_of_Spellsight

!!!

and should we not be able to cannith craft blunted and venomous ammunition?

[Livmo]

*scribbles down "put ranged alacrity on more bows" in notes*

Ranged alacrity to light and heavy repeating crossbows. And the other crossbows as well.

Thanks!



Side note, My Needle (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Needle,_Quill-slinger) is envious of the Pinion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Pinion,_Cloud-piercer), because it has Seeker on it.

[blerkington]

We're just trying to avoid another Quiver of Alacrity scenario, in which one item has the highest possible usable stat and therefore can never be eclipsed unless we make the same item again with the same singular bonus + more effects. Run speed doesn't go higher than 30% on items, so when something hits 30% run speed, anything less is useless and in order to make another compelling item to encourage different gear sets for different scenarios, the only way to create options is to just add more effects. I wear my Quiver of Alacrity from level 1 to 30 on most lives, but having gear like that in the game makes it hard to put together new and fun items.

Ranged attack speed of that level is found in two places - bows and an epic feat. If we put that level of ranged alacrity somewhere else, it effectively gives a free epic feat to ranged characters. Quivers are thematically ranged, and putting melee bonuses on them doesn't make any sense, so we can't really make a "melee quiver" to give non-ranged players the same experience of a piece of gear replacing a build choice.

This explanation seems a little odd to me. The Quiver of Alacrity is not a particularly powerful item. Its value consists in being able to equip it at a very low level. There are other items in the game that offer a 30% run speed bonus at a fairly low levels and the ranged alacrity increase is not any higher than is available from haste.

So there seems to be some confusion here between item power and convenience. The Quiver of Alacrity could certainly be eclisped by other very modestly powerful items at around level 7 because we can get these effects from other sources. For example, even a plain quiver with a green augment slot would be more useful for my melee rogue and for many other builds besides.

There are many non combat effects that could be put on quivers that would be useful to a variety of builds, not just ranged or melee. Then there are also effects, like the insightful sneak attack bonus, that are useful to both melee and ranged builds and also to builds that use both combat styles. And of course everyone can potentially benefit from utility and defensive effects on quivers too. So giving effects that replace high level feat choices is far from being your only choice here.

For these reasons I'm not really seeing much substance to this explanation. There's just this vague idea that 'it doesn't make sense'. Perhaps not to you or whoever explained this to you, but it certainly makes sense to me, and judging by the feedback in this thread I'm not alone in that. What doesn't make sense is putting quivers in a special category where they are largely only useful to ranged builds, thereby giving those builds an extra gear slot largely unavailable to or pointless for non ranged builds.

And frankly, I think it's a big mistake to try to use this gear slot to tune power differences between archery, crossbows and throwers. Bow users do need some help but that should be done at the enhancement and feat levels, not with gear. Because that's where you really start painting yourself into a corner with certain items becoming must-have rather than allowing people choice of what to put there.

Thanks.

[janave]

sorry to go off-topic: speaking of quivers, is there any chance that you can look into making this quiver available for us?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Seeker_Tap_of_Spellsight

!!!

and should we not be able to cannith craft blunted and venomous ammunition?

Crafted and random gen and some named ammo scaling past +5 makes sense. From the outside this looks like a clever method to apply improved enhancements to Bow, making it somewhat more attractive for meta play. Effects put on ammo might make up for the slot spent for alacrity on the Bow's body.


There is also a somewhat related ED ability:
Echoes of the Ancestors: Shiradi Champion

Which last time i checked have not updated the character sheet, would this be difficult to track down and fix ? It is also interesting because it mentions Bows and Throwing weapons, so one would assume there is in fact some separate variable for Bow, and Throwing (Whirling Wrists) at least.

[unbongwah]

How bout a quiver that’s gives melee alacrity
They should really add magic scabbards which go in the same equipment slot as quivers but provide melee bonuses instead.

[Grace_ana]

They should really add magic scabbards which go in the same equipment slot as quivers but provide melee bonuses instead.

Ohhh...that would be AWESOME. Nice idea!

[Qhualor]

They should really add magic scabbards which go in the same equipment slot as quivers but provide melee bonuses instead.



http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc40/RichieGH/ani_koolaid-young-ones.gif (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/RichieGH/media/ani_koolaid-young-ones.gif.html)

[Niminae]

Blargh, putting something like that on a quiver would be super way too strong. Quivers (with two obvious exceptions) are meant to be a small bonus or none at all.

The problem with this kind of a design philosophy/policy/whatever is that you've just made your "two obvious exceptions" the only two quivers in the game worth using, forever. And then Reaper helped that along by making all of the "adds 1d6 type X damage" quivers almost useless when they are reduced to 1d2 or 1 or 0 points in mid-skull reaper runs.


If we put that level of ranged alacrity somewhere else, it effectively gives a free epic feat to ranged characters.

There is a simple solution to your "Doctor, it hurts my elbow (the game) when we do this," and it is of course: "Don't do that." So if you think this is a Bad Thing™ then don't put Blinding Speed on a quiver. Easy peasy, problem solved. But there's no need for that exclusion to shut down any other thoughts of what might make a few other quivers other than the two obvious exceptions useful in the game.

[Caarb]

We're just trying to avoid another Quiver of Alacrity scenario, in which one item has the highest possible usable stat and therefore can never be eclipsed unless we make the same item again with the same singular bonus + more effects. Run speed doesn't go higher than 30% on items, so when something hits 30% run speed, anything less is useless and in order to make another compelling item to encourage different gear sets for different scenarios, the only way to create options is to just add more effects. I wear my Quiver of Alacrity from level 1 to 30 on most lives, but having gear like that in the game makes it hard to put together new and fun items.

Ranged attack speed of that level is found in two places - bows and an epic feat. If we put that level of ranged alacrity somewhere else, it effectively gives a free epic feat to ranged characters. Quivers are thematically ranged, and putting melee bonuses on them doesn't make any sense, so we can't really make a "melee quiver" to give non-ranged players the same experience of a piece of gear replacing a build choice.


Why is it good design to have an Epic Feat that is mandatory feat for most ranged (notable exceptions include GxBow Mechanics) but optional for Melee. All sources of ranged alacrity should be increased to take into account the reload animation. Putting this effect on bows rather than another dps statistic puts bows even further behind than they already are.

[Niminae]

Putting this effect [any haste-like] on bows rather than another dps statistic puts bows even further behind than they already are.


And this is because repeaters can wear a rune arm (most repeaters at least) and throwers can carry an off-hand. Bows are a two-handed weapon style which has no off-hand item with additional affects on it. If they are limited to 4 affects and Cannith Crafting values as per your description of itemization rules the disparity can never be reduced because the other styles have the advantage of what is essentially have a free slot with another 4 affects and perhaps an augment.

Gxbows have the same restriction, but they have the advantage of the Mechanic tree and Mechanical Reloader provides more alacrity than Blinding Speed, and is just all around a fantastic ranged damage tree for Gxbow users.

[janave]

And this is because repeaters can wear a rune arm (most repeaters at least) and throwers can carry an off-hand. Bows are a two-handed weapon style which has no off-hand item with additional affects on it. If they are limited to 4 affects and Cannith Crafting values as per your description of itemization rules the disparity can never be reduced because the other styles have the advantage of what is essentially have a free slot with another 4 affects and perhaps an augment.

Gxbows have the same restriction, but they have the advantage of the Mechanic tree and Mechanical Reloader provides more alacrity than Blinding Speed, and is just all around a fantastic ranged damage tree for Gxbow users.

Exactly, off hand is effectively another gear slot, often with augmentation. At level 28+ that is quite a few extra effects (defense and utility too) on a character.

[ned_ellis]

snip

There is also a somewhat related ED ability:
Echoes of the Ancestors: Shiradi Champion

Which last time i checked have not updated the character sheet, would this be difficult to track down and fix ? It is also interesting because it mentions Bows and Throwing weapons, so one would assume there is in fact some separate variable for Bow, and Throwing (Whirling Wrists) at least.

I had a hunt around and...still can't work out if it's wai and, if so, what is wai?! I would have thought it would be a stacking bonus with most alacrity effects as it's a T4 Twist but can't get any definate proof....Lyn?! :p


Exactly, off hand is effectively another gear slot, often with augmentation. At level 28+ that is quite a few extra effects (defense and utility too) on a character.

Longbows, shortbows and, while we're at it, Qstaff....they all really need a re-think with regards 'base dev development rules'.

I'll add that I liked the suggestions above with regards sinking it into certain thematic trees and races (elves, AA) but would probably be longer and harder to implement. Also, I'll echo those that were dismayed at the last few attempts at named longbows; tbh even the TOEE one didn't grab me even though numerically it can pan out. Pinion, me good ol'trusty Pinion...and not much else :(
I would think there could be some form of bow+arrow+quiver option that doesnt break the xbow and throwers balance (or lack thereof). I liked the idea of the Baba arrow clicky even though I have yet to try it in practice; working with arrows would allow for weapon specific builds to be helped without risking balance issues.

[Aced]

I would think there could be some form of bow+arrow+quiver option that doesnt break the xbow and throwers balance (or lack thereof).

Very nice Idea! Quiver+arrow+bow set bonus seems like a decent solution.:cool:

Or even bow+quiver bonus.

[Niminae]

Very nice Idea! Quiver+arrow+bow set bonus seems like a decent solution.:cool:

Or even bow+quiver bonus.

Add a set bonus to several quivers and several bows. Repeaters and throwers won't get the set bonus. Problem solved.

[Cantor]

Add a set bonus to several quivers and several bows. Repeaters and throwers won't get the set bonus. Problem solved.

I like this idea, but I prefer the idea of more arrows with special effects like void. A set locks you into that bow, and then you passed over for a long time coming most likely.


Exactly, off hand is effectively another gear slot, often with augmentation. At level 28+ that is quite a few extra effects (defense and utility too) on a character.

This 100times over, bow is the only ranged option without offhand equips.

[janave]

I had a hunt around and...still can't work out if it's wai and, if so, what is wai?! I would have thought it would be a stacking bonus with most alacrity effects as it's a T4 Twist but can't get any definate proof....Lyn?! :p

I expected this to stack, most of the Echoes ...* benefits stack.

[ned_ellis]

I expected this to stack, most of the Echoes ...* benefits stack.

You expectED? as in, in your experience it doesn't or, like me, you still aren't sure?! ;)

[janave]

You expectED? as in, in your experience it doesn't or, like me, you still aren't sure?! ;)

I am not sure, and I think I could fail to record a 10% margin with my current build setup.

[jakeelala]

I think some great ideas have been floated here:
1. Quiver + Bow Set bonuses is amazing. You can Make Quivers Great Again without benefitting shuri's and xbows. Or you can just give those things different set bonuses.
2. Bows are 2 handed weapons but don't really have any bonus to accommodate that. Really the solution to all problems ranged combat is:
a. Make damage decrease with distance for ranged attacks with much sharper drop offs as appropriate (bows and xbows would have greatest range shuris/anything thrown would have shortest).
OR
b. just give bows much, MUCH bigger point blank range damage. Bows should get +1w per +1 Enchantment bonus of the bow while in point blank range, and maybe half that damage while within 2x Point blank range. This is a just a crude version of a. above.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

[janave]

1) Update Speed I-XV items to include the ranged animation offset for system consistency.
2) Update Blinding Speed eFeat so it is worth taking for all DPS builds if they want a slight edge: +17% melee + 25% ranged.

Thoughts?

[salmag]

Since you can distinguish between DoubleStrike and Doubleshot,

Why not make quivers that have Bow Alacrity or XBow Alacrity or Ranged Alacrity (which works on both)?