Universal enhancement trees. Love them?

[kmoustakas]

I don't know about you guys but I really like them. In a sense, they remind me of prestige classes and give you quite a bit of versatility. I do hope we get to see more of them in the future.

Acolyte of the skin, whatever happened to you!

[glmfw1]

I love the concept of Universal Trees or Trees that appear in multiple classes (such as War Priest/War Soul).
The idea with Prestige Classes was that there were entry requirements that were relevant to the Prestige Class abilities - some classes would meet these by default at a certain level (BAB of 10, Casting 4th Level Spells etc), others required specific investment (Must be able to cast {insert spell name}, Must have Jump of 11). The entry requirements determined the optimal classes but rarely was anyone excluded from a Prestige Class that would be of relevance/benefit (although it might take a bit of cross-class skilling and multi-classing to achieve).
It would probably be a coding nightmare, but I'd much rather see the DDO trees all be "Universal" but have pre-requisites for access and progression (Kensei already does some of this with it's heavy Feat requirements). The right mix of pre-requisites would ensure that all members of certain classes would qualify, but other classes with certain skill/feat investments might be able to use too. Some trees would remain fairly pointless for certain classes/multiclasses even if they qualified (trees that excel in Dire Bear form or enhance spell abilities probably aren't much use if you are mainly a fighter).

[gaki]

I don't know about you guys but I really like them. In a sense, they remind me of prestige classes and give you quite a bit of versatility. I do hope we get to see more of them in the future.

Acolyte of the skin, whatever happened to you!

I'm a huge fan of the Harper Tree, though I wasn't a fan when it was first introduced because it seemed so hodge podge. I've used the INT to hit and INT damage options to make an interesting Artificer melee with a tricked out iron defender, and I've used them to make my Eldritch Knight a lot more effective, too. I've also used Vistani knife fighter to make a Cleric/Rogue cleric of Vol that's super fun to play.

[Kaboom2112]

They're an okay idea.

I'd like to see more race get access to certain class trees.

[mr420247]

The fact that war priest is junk and cleirics have no choice except falcon makes me a little bitter

but the tree def looks nice

A universal psionic tree might be alot of fun

[glmfw1]

The fact that war priest is junk and cleirics have no choice except falcon makes me a little bitter


It's not so much that War Priest is junk but that everything else is very very shiny.
When, as a new player, I looked at War Priest, it seemed to have a lot of very good abilities. It was only later I discovered that many other classes had better and most other classes had synergy between trees.
Clerics with birds is going to be an interesting thing to see - "I worship Olladra... Goddess of Luck and Snowy Owls. Her favoured weapon is the sickle with a pair of claws rushing in afterwards!"

[Memnir]

While I appreciate the diversity they bring - I see them as a worrisome trend overall.

[HastyPudding]

A universal psionic tree might be alot of fun

Yes, if we can't have a full psionic class pass, at least give us an enhancement tree focused on it. I made a crack at it a while back in the suggestions forum.



On topic, I LOVE independent enhancement trees. It's about time we had a spellcasting focused one (maybe shaman, wild mage, or acolyte of the skin?). The Falconry tree is interesting, but it makes me wonder: if we can have drones for artificers, archons for favored souls, and birds for the falconry tree, why can't wizards and sorcerers have familiars?

[edrein]

While I appreciate the diversity they bring - I see them as a worrisome trend overall.

I second this. At the moment it feels like the proper work needed to revamp War Priest/Soul in a solid state got spent on creating Falconry instead.

Not to mention for an universal tree having healing abilities that only heal positive energy is a bit odd. Make healing options in universal trees be racial. That way Warforged get full healing and Palemasters can have fun too.

[mr420247]

Ok clerics r op and even more op after the update but not even close to monks so

Warpriest should at least be on the bard standard that is what sev said the bar was right

[Niminae]

The fact that war priest is junk and cleirics have no choice except falcon makes me a little bitter




This. Setting Warpriest/Soul up to fail with a lackluster, no effort made pass (feedback from people on the players council when it was proposed there say that nothing changed in the year between the proposal and now, so yeah no effort) and then offering a better warpriest tree for sale is just lousy all around.

[HuneyMunster]

I don't know about you guys but I really like them. In a sense, they remind me of prestige classes and give you quite a bit of versatility. I do hope we get to see more of them in the future.

Acolyte of the skin, whatever happened to you!

I do like the Universal trees as they can represent prestige classes that can be made available to multiple classes.


My biggest issue so far is that they are all more suited to melee/range builds. You could argue that Harper has caster orientated enhancements, but thats mostly T5 with the majority more suited to int based melee/range builds.


Acolyte of the Skin might make a good caster addition, but think that might end up being a Sorcerer tree. It would probably make more sense to give Sorcerer Wild Mage and have Acolyte as universal as would be fit for Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock and Clerics. There could be muliselector that allow the choice of Int, Cha or Wis as the main stat.

[blerkington]

The universal trees are an interesting idea, and do create build options that weren't there before. But I think they are also severely accelerating power creep.

The trees tend to be more powerful than the base class trees. In particular, they allow us to stack DPS on builds that would otherwise not be able to reach those heights. Harper started this with stat consolidation for attack/damage, KTA and additional melee/ranged power, Vistani was a major increase for melee rogues, and it seems that Falconry may do this for WIS based DPS builds by supporting both DPS and instakills.

I know that the trees need to be appealing enough to make people want to buy/use them, but to me it seems like they are going too far. And it seems like this tendency will only continue in attempting to sell this type of product in the future.

Thanks.

[edrein]

I do like the Universal trees as they can represent prestige classes that can be made available to multiple classes.


My biggest issue so far is that they are all more suited to melee/range builds. You could argue that Harper has caster orientated enhancements, but thats mostly T5 with the majority more suited to int based melee/range builds.


Acolyte of the Skin might make a good caster addition, but think that might end up being a Sorcerer tree. It would probably make more sense to give Sorcerer Wild Mage and have Acolyte as universal as would be fit for Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock and Clerics. There could be muliselector that allow the choice of Int, Cha or Wis as the main stat.

Technically I'd add necromancer to that list. As it's a divine major and arcane minor prestige.

I wouldn't mind seeing them rework Palemaster to be more like tabletop: AKA, minor necromancy big on the defensive boosts and having the grafted arm for CC abilities like an updated Ghoul Touch. Practically a better negative energy version of Eldritch Knight, while staying true to the actual tabletop version and giving it some DDO flavor.

Then make Necromancer as an universal tree. Make it more caster and pet focused. Slap on Mummy, Vampire, and Lich shrouds/forms and call it a day.

[edrein]

The universal trees are an interesting idea, and do create build options that weren't there before. But I think they are also severely accelerating power creep.

The trees tend to be more powerful than the base class trees. In particular, they allow us to stack DPS on builds that would otherwise not be able to reach those heights. Harper started this with stat consolidation for attack/damage, KTA and additional melee/ranged power, Vistani was a major increase for melee rogues, and it seems that Falconry may do this for WIS based DPS builds by supporting both DPS and instakills.

I know that the trees need to be appealing enough to make people want to buy/use them, but to me it seems like they are going too far. And it seems like this tendency will only continue in attempting to sell this type of product in the future.

Thanks.

I agree that Falconry went too far in power creep, atleast on adding a new assassinate as well as several CCing attacks.

I wouldn't say Vistani's on the same level though. Sure it stacks with assassin as a tree, but other than Assassin's stacking crit profile it's arguably a DPS lite tree with more emphasis on debuffing via the poison attacks and instakilling with assassinate. Vistani helped to prop assassin up, adds more uses for daggers overall, and gives some general utility to any build that spends points in the tree.

I think the biggest issue at the moment is how Falconry has been handled. Atleast in terms of power and when it was released. Any marketing team worth their salt wouldn't have released it this update; atleast not when the devs are making strides at not properly updating War Priest/Soul. Appearances matter in business, and currently the Falconry tree with all of its wisdom based glory looks like utter contempt for 'free content updates' compared to profitable universal enhancement trees they can peddle.

[PsychoBlonde]

On topic, I LOVE independent enhancement trees. It's about time we had a spellcasting focused one (maybe shaman, wild mage, or acolyte of the skin?). The Falconry tree is interesting, but it makes me wonder: if we can have drones for artificers, archons for favored souls, and birds for the falconry tree, why can't wizards and sorcerers have familiars?

I'd like to see a Mystic Theurge tree that requires you to have levels in arcane and divine spellcasting classes.

[Tuxedoman96]

Ok clerics r op and even more op after the update but not even close to monks so

Warpriest should at least be on the bard standard that is what sev said the bar was right

How are clerics OP?

[Tuxedoman96]

I do like the Universal trees as they can represent prestige classes that can be made available to multiple classes.


My biggest issue so far is that they are all more suited to melee/range builds. You could argue that Harper has caster orientated enhancements, but thats mostly T5 with the majority more suited to int based melee/range builds.


Acolyte of the Skin might make a good caster addition, but think that might end up being a Sorcerer tree. It would probably make more sense to give Sorcerer Wild Mage and have Acolyte as universal as would be fit for Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock and Clerics. There could be muliselector that allow the choice of Int, Cha or Wis as the main stat.

That sounds interesting. I'm also interested to see what happens with sorcs and wizards when their passes come.

[Tuxedoman96]

The universal trees are an interesting idea, and do create build options that weren't there before. But I think they are also severely accelerating power creep.

The trees tend to be more powerful than the base class trees. In particular, they allow us to stack DPS on builds that would otherwise not be able to reach those heights. Harper started this with stat consolidation for attack/damage, KTA and additional melee/ranged power, Vistani was a major increase for melee rogues, and it seems that Falconry may do this for WIS based DPS builds by supporting both DPS and instakills.

I know that the trees need to be appealing enough to make people want to buy/use them, but to me it seems like they are going too far. And it seems like this tendency will only continue in attempting to sell this type of product in the future.

Thanks.

Hmm. I think that the grind has to stop and store-bought power enhancers have to be removed before there's any consideration for class and enhancement balance. The unfortunate consequence of the grind is that player power is increasing, and to compensate, monster power is increasing. Then players complain about the monster power and hp inflation, their complaints not unfounded, so then the Devs have to provide more power to the players. It's a vicious cycle.

[Tuxedoman96]

I'd like to see a Mystic Theurge tree that requires you to have levels in arcane and divine spellcasting classes.

Hmm, but then it wouldn't be universal, it'd be an arcane/divine exclusive tree. What if it required having the magical training feat? Then every class could opt into it. Might be good to make it as a feat requirement instead of just having the ability (because Arcane Archers, Spellsingers, and Aasimars can get it from their tree).

[Tuxedoman96]

I agree that Falconry went too far in power creep, atleast on adding a new assassinate as well as several CCing attacks.

I wouldn't say Vistani's on the same level though. Sure it stacks with assassin as a tree, but other than Assassin's stacking crit profile it's arguably a DPS lite tree with more emphasis on debuffing via the poison attacks and instakilling with assassinate. Vistani helped to prop assassin up, adds more uses for daggers overall, and gives some general utility to any build that spends points in the tree.

I think the biggest issue at the moment is how Falconry has been handled. Atleast in terms of power and when it was released. Any marketing team worth their salt wouldn't have released it this update; atleast not when the devs are making strides at not properly updating War Priest/Soul. Appearances matter in business, and currently the Falconry tree with all of its wisdom based glory looks like utter contempt for 'free content updates' compared to profitable universal enhancement trees they can peddle.

I agree that vistani was a great help to assassins, but that's part of the problem. No class tree should have to rely on a universal tree to be something worth taking (not saying assassin is). The problem I see is that the newer universal trees are pretty much necessary for some class trees to be worthwhile.