Is Flint Really the best Heroic DPS dagger?

[SiliconScout]

Hey all.

So I have a single-weapon swashbuckling Vistani Dagger wielder and I am sitting at level 18 and still haven't found a better DPS dagger than Flint (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Flint). Am I missing something?

My flint has a Ruby Eye of the Inferno (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ruby_Eye_of_the_Inferno) and a Ruby Eye of the Glacier (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ruby_Eye_of_the_Glacier) which helps but even putting that into a crafted ml 18 dagger it doesn't quite match up. I am sure it's the base 2d6 damage more so than the extra slot that's pushing it over the top but still.

Am I missing a dagger I can hunt for. Been using the same weapon for 8 levels now and I am not sure it's keeping up very well.

Even Vorpal fishing doesn't seem to give me any better DPS at this point as most mobs need to be beat down a fair bit before the vorpal takes them out, usually saving me a second or two at most on the mobs that it kills but overall it seems to take longer to chew through the mobs.

Thanks!

[Mandelia]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Guardian_of_the_Liturgy has the best synergy with the vistani tree dice increase. I dig flint for the augments, but this one has the best raw dps.

[Discpsycho]

If you're not keen on Vorpal, that narrows it down some. Improved Vorpal is...well, slightly improved, in that it kills folks below 1500. That's present on Dice (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Dice), which has similar on-hit power to Flint but also has fort bypass. Since you're probably running precision as a swash, an extra 15% is icing on the gravy.

For a swashbuckler, I'd argue that Nightforge Stiletto (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightforge_Stiletto) is better because of the 17-20 crit range. It's adamantine and has a slight weapon enhancement advantage, but is otherwise unremarkable. Pretty easy to get, though - at least it's nonrandom.

The best one is probably Slice (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Slice), though I haven't done the damage calculations comparing it to the stiletto that would back up that statement. If I recall, the droprate in MoM is generally fine.

[glmfw1]

I haven't used them yet to know for sure (not been in a dagger build since they came out), but Slice (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Slice) and Dice (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Dice) from Multitude of Menace looked good to me.
2[1d4] and 1.5[1d4] rather than the 2[1d6] but lots of other abilities on them.

[janave]

This looks ok (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sheridan%27s_Wrack)

GS or T2 alchemical will be better generic dps at 18.

[Selvera]

Have you tried crit-fishing daggers? (Assassin's Kiss, nightforge stiletto)

From my limited experience with upgraded ToEE weapons; they're really useful if what you want is AoE damage.

The guardian of the liturgy is pretty similar to flint in terms of base damage; but scales with sources of +[w] better then flint.

Slice and Dice are Nice if you twf.

And if you hit the random loot dagger that's either vorpal of deception or paralyzing of deception; they can have their uses.

[Saekee]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Guardian_of_the_Liturgy has the best synergy with the vistani tree dice increase. I dig flint for the augments, but this one has the best raw dps.
It is close. Deadly blades adds +W so that means +1d10 more on the base 1d10 for Guardian whereas Flint gets +1d6 onto the base of 2d6. Flint goes to 3d6 whereas Guardian is 2d10. Guardian gets piercing and slashing, heartseeker and bleed, one red augment. Flint gets the two augments plus 1d6 shock, 1d10 burst. So they are quite close, but I think Guardian pulls ahead. That said, you have some nice augments in Flint and might as well stay with it.

Sheridan's is odd since it is 1.5(2-6) so boosting that you are 2.5(2-6) so 5-15. That makes Sheridan's very good until you get IC piercing anyway.

At least how I see it. Maybe I am a bit off?


Have you tried crit-fishing daggers? (Assassin's Kiss, nightforge stiletto)

From my limited experience with upgraded ToEE weapons; they're really useful if what you want is AoE damage.

The guardian of the liturgy is pretty similar to flint in terms of base damage; but scales with sources of +[w] better then flint.

Slice and Dice are Nice if you twf.

And if you hit the random loot dagger that's either vorpal of deception or paralyzing of deception; they can have their uses.

Then there is the option of increased multipliers/threat range (Nightforge/Kiss/SkyPirate) which will matter more if you have 1) already IC Pierce, 2) very good Seeker boosts, both in gear and enhancements, and 3) a foe that you are able to crit. At late heroics one probably has at least +10 seeker from Stalker ring and some enhancements, so with an increased crit/threat you will --hmmmn--13-20/3 with Nightforge or 14-20/3? This could add up nicely, head is not making the calcs.

[LightBear]

Sky Pirate's Dagger

[Fivetigers33]

I don't have every heroic dagger, but when I did a dagger build, I ended up using Assassin's kiss from 7 to 20. The base x3 crit multiplier ends up being a ton of dps. The more base damage you do, the further ahead Assassin's kiss will be than all the other daggers. You can use Sky Pirate's Dagger until you get improved crit: pierce.

[HungarianRhapsody]

None of those can break DR/Good, so you're going to miss out on a lot of DPS against a lot of enemies. Also, there are a lot of enemies that have DR/Blunt, so I'd suggest going with
http://ddowiki.com/page/Club_of_the_Holy_Flame

[nokowi]

None of those can break DR/Good, so you're going to miss out on a lot of DPS against a lot of enemies. Also, there are a lot of enemies that have DR/Blunt, so I'd suggest going with
http://ddowiki.com/page/Club_of_the_Holy_Flame

Great delivery, I'm still laughing.

[Xanthrawl]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Daggers

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Polycurse_Dagger Can be fun.

Dice is probably the single best all-purpose option, IMO. If you're not into the Vorpal game, then you'll be looking for expanded crit profiles, or lot of effects.

Fell Shiv is a worse version of Dice, though you can acquire it on the AH. So it does have that going for it.

[Grace_ana]

Sky Pirate's Dagger

Yeah, I used this for a LOT of levels. I like it more than Flint because of the huge crit range. I might have finally swapped one out around lvl 12 for my rad2.

[fmalfeas]

Hey all.

So I have a single-weapon swashbuckling Vistani Dagger wielder and I am sitting at level 18 and still haven't found a better DPS dagger than Flint (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Flint). Am I missing something?

My flint has a Ruby Eye of the Inferno (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ruby_Eye_of_the_Inferno) and a Ruby Eye of the Glacier (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ruby_Eye_of_the_Glacier) which helps but even putting that into a crafted ml 18 dagger it doesn't quite match up. I am sure it's the base 2d6 damage more so than the extra slot that's pushing it over the top but still.

Am I missing a dagger I can hunt for. Been using the same weapon for 8 levels now and I am not sure it's keeping up very well.

Even Vorpal fishing doesn't seem to give me any better DPS at this point as most mobs need to be beat down a fair bit before the vorpal takes them out, usually saving me a second or two at most on the mobs that it kills but overall it seems to take longer to chew through the mobs.

Thanks!

If you have any rogue levels or other sources of Sneak Attack, might be worth looking into Polycurse dagger. It's kinda fragile, but has Deception, one of the curses it drops on things /constantly/ is blindness, and it procs Corrosive Salt, which goes off pretty often. It's only 2[1d4] for damage, but those other features make it a killer if you have SA (corrosive doesn't help with that part, it's just untyped damage that helps in general).

[SiliconScout]

If you have any rogue levels or other sources of Sneak Attack, might be worth looking into Polycurse dagger. It's kinda fragile, but has Deception, one of the curses it drops on things /constantly/ is blindness, and it procs Corrosive Salt, which goes off pretty often. It's only 2[1d4] for damage, but those other features make it a killer if you have SA (corrosive doesn't help with that part, it's just untyped damage that helps in general).


Currently (and I know my maker what a mutt) I have 11 Arty, 5 Bard, 2 Rogue

I know, please this is just a completely goofy build for a heroic PL. Wanted to do a Melee Arty WF because never done a melee arty then figured what the hell never did Vistani either, and since I tie up a rune arm hand might was well swf and swashbuckle. It's actually not too bad really, and kinda shines in a group but I am finding because it's all Single Target its easy to get swarmed.

Next WF life is going to be a cleave bot or back to caster though, AoE is the only way to play this game anymore sadly.

I don't have the cove dagger (never had one I don't think) and I think I have a slice if I recall. Might have to hunt for dice then. And it's not that I don't like vorpal I just don't see it going off enough to actually get me to chew through a group of mobs faster, it actually feels slower.

[Annex]

I have tried almost every dagger and mostly run with a pair of Guardian of the Liturgy daggers from L12 to L20+, one slotted with a Ruby of Good and the other slotted with a Meteoric Star Ruby. As the others have mentioned, the exact configuration and equipment of your character matters for this determination so one weapon will not work as 'the best' for everyone. The situation also matters.

I always run with a Ring of the Stalker which makes all weapons Vorpal against humanoid opponents. You cannot instantly kill an enemy that was just instantly killed so weapons like Dice actually lose overall performance versus other stuff with a Ring of the Stalker equipped.

Old style Deception and Improved Deception also matter and can stack in many configurations, dramatically increasing damage output. Both can be achieved from equipment and weapons so adding in a bunch of that makes for quicker battles.

I personally find it hard to slot, but if you can equip an item that freezes opponents, that will generate tons of sneak damage. I recently learned Paralysis does not enable sneak damage which explains why Paralysis never seemed to help my damage output. Obviously, it still keeps stuff from fighting back.

The Radiance II weapon mentioned is for Blinding enemies which increases Sneak Attack opportunities. Those are neat but also make enemies squirrel around which can be super annoying.

As others have mentioned, it pays to carry additional weapons to defeat specific kinds of Damage Reduction. Sometimes a mediocre weapon can outperform a great weapon but you must balance that against bag space and how often you really need the thing. Metalline drops on random treasure and if you are really lucky, you may find a Flame Touched with Metalline and a Red Augment Slot. Something to deal with Ghosts and Reapers is super helpful if facing those often. The Spectral Dagger from Night Revels is pretty much a dedicated Reaper destroyer. It works surprisingly well against oozes, too, though it makes most split, which is funny. I really like the Spectral Throwing Dagger as my ranged weapon.

No one mentioned the free weapon from Ravenloft so I will throw that into the mix.

Anyway, Flint definitely sits at or near the top of the pack. If you enjoy experimenting, give some other daggers a tryout. If not, um, carry on! :)

[Revolted]

Personally I used Dice on my VFK build, mainly because I was running mid-to-high reapers. Anyways, grab all daggers you can, test them and stick with the one you prefer :)

[kmoustakas]

Pretty sure nothing beats Sky pirate's dagger until you get improved critical where you should switch to assasin's kiss. Unless you do very limited base damage in which case you want a vorpal dagger of whatever. Weapons with improved critical modifiers get exponentially better the higher your base damage is and weapons with more procs get better the LESS base damage you have.

[Ausdoerrt]

So I have a single-weapon swashbuckling Vistani Dagger wielder

A bit off topic, but QUESTION: I've been musing about doing a swashbuckling Vistani myself, but what's the synergy there? As far as I can tell, the expanded critical from Swash and Vistani are both competence bonuses so... what am I missing?

[Cantor]

A bit off topic, but QUESTION: I've been musing about doing a swashbuckling Vistani myself, but what's the synergy there? As far as I can tell, the expanded critical from Swash and Vistani are both competence bonuses so... what am I missing?

It's just a SB picking up some MP, damage, and +w.

[Matuse]

Vistani and Swash just conflict on those cores for the crit range expansion. You can choose to take one or the other. Unless you're going for the Vistani capstone, you can stop at core 3 and not miss much.

[SiliconScout]

Vistani and Swash just conflict on those cores for the crit range expansion. You can choose to take one or the other. Unless you're going for the Vistani capstone, you can stop at core 3 and not miss much.

In my case I am far more swashbuckler than vistanti for sure. Considering moving over the the vistani capstone though. Realistically I am looking to get them best mix of +W, attack speed, MP and Crit bonus that I can while still feeling right in calling myself an Arty but let's be honest I think I might might have 2 points in any of the Arty Trees.