A question about melee DPS..THF line or Cleaves

[Bacab]

What is generally "better" for melee DPS?

The Two hand fighting line...

or

Cleaves

I plan on doing a couple Quarterstaff Builds (some will be Cleric multiclass, Thief Acrobat and Monk)

I also plan on doing a Paladin life and some (edit: a lot) heavy armor Battle Cleric lives.

Basically, I am curious which is generally better. THF line vs Cleave/Great Cleave.

The Cleave route would also open up 1 more feat.

I was going to most likely do my Dwarf Racial TRs as a Battle Cleric. I was wondering if I should go with Dwarven Axes vs Warhammers or Heavy Picks.

I have better Warhammers and Heavy Picks than Dwarven Axes.

Also, I was generally planning to go with a min level 2 Maelstrom and Carnifex at low levels until I level into my nice shields/War Hammers and Heavy Picks (Deathnips).

The answer I want to hear is "OMG Heavy picks and Warhammers are so cool and you should definitely just do that!"

But I am generally unfamiliar with how to make really good melees.

I have read a lot of builders ideas and it seems pretty split.

Also a lot of the info that I have read is from 2012-2014. Basically before the Cleric Domains etc.

[simo0208]

What is generally "better" for melee DPS?

The Two hand fighting line...

or

Cleaves

I plan on doing a couple Quarterstaff Builds (some will be Cleric multiclass, Thief Acrobat and Monk)

I also plan on doing a Paladin life and some (edit: a lot) heavy armor Battle Cleric lives.

Basically, I am curious which is generally better. THF line vs Cleave/Great Cleave.

The Cleave route would also open up 1 more feat.

I was going to most likely do my Dwarf Racial TRs as a Battle Cleric. I was wondering if I should go with Dwarven Axes vs Warhammers or Heavy Picks.

I have better Warhammers and Heavy Picks than Dwarven Axes.

Also, I was generally planning to go with a min level 2 Maelstrom and Carnifex at low levels until I level into my nice shields/War Hammers and Heavy Picks (Deathnips).

The answer I want to hear is "OMG Heavy picks and Warhammers are so cool and you should definitely just do that!"

But I am generally unfamiliar with how to make really good melees.

I have read a lot of builders ideas and it seems pretty split.

Also a lot of the info that I have read is from 2012-2014. Basically before the Cleric Domains etc.

Both?

Thf and cleaves is superior to just one of the two. If I had to choose one, I’d probably go cleave but maybe thf and precision

[Selvera]

Both.

Cleave is better burst AoE damage; which is sort of all you need for lower level quests. Which is why I pick the cleaves up first. (well that and the fact that power attack is really good at low levels). Then once I have those there's not much else in the feat department to pick up worth more then the THF line of feats.

An example rotation from a TA/monk stick build could look like this:

Gather a group of enemies -> Sweeping Strikes -> Cleave -> Greatcleave -> The enemies are now dead. But maybe you gathered such a big group that there's some stragglers that were outside of the range of cleave/great cleave; or maybe there's a few extra mobs running at you that didn't reach you in time to get cleaved down. So follow up with: Haste Boost -> Quick Strike -> Auto attacks. For these attacks the THF line of feats will give some nice AoE damage with your fast attackspeed and you'll mow down all the stragglers. Second rotation also works well for bosses, but usually those don't take too long to kill.

Add in Reaper Strike to the second rotation when you get it.

An example feat list for most 2 handed weapon builds might look like such:

Level 1: Power Attack
Level 3: Cleave
Level 6: Greatcleave
Level 9: Two Handed Fighting
Level 12: Improved Critical
Level 15: Improved Two Handed Fighting
Level 18: Greater Two Handed Fighting

[unbongwah]

If you need to prioritize, take Cleaves first. But yeah you want both chains if possible.

[AlcoArgo]

What does your build look like? Are you really that short of feats that you can't fit both in? If so, you may want to splash some fighter in there to get the extra feats.

[Qhualor]

my pure barb takes the Cleaves and THF line and there isn't really any room for anything else. not complaining, but even as human I end up taking GC as a feat in epics. probably the only one that still takes Toughness, but I like my hit points. I would say you would want to splash fighter if you want more feats if you take both lines.

[Bacab]

Awesome advice in this thread.

Let me answer some questions why I struggle to get cleaves and THF.

So on my Cleric Quarterstaff builds:

I plan on being non-human (already done with human Racial TR),

So that is one feat I am missing out on.

I plan on taking Completionist, so that is one other feat that is used up.

And as a Cleric, I think I need three or four metamagic feats. Like Maximize, Empower Heal, Quicken and possibly Extend if I can fit it in.

I was going to do an INT based Q-Staff build that was going to attempt traps and smack stuff with a stick. I was thinking 12Cleric/6Monk/2Rogue

The 6 levels of Monk get me 3 bonus feats

I was thinking a level progression of first level ROG (skill points) then some Monk and Cleric levels and toward the end, my last level of ROG and then some more Cleric and Monk?

Feats would probably go this way.

1 Insightful reflexes because INT based
2 (has to be a Monk Bonus Feat) Power Attack
3 Cleave
6 Great CLeave
6 (Monk bonus feat) THF?
9 Empower Heal or Maximize
12 Improved Crit Bludgeon
15 Completionist
16 (Monk Bonus Feat) Toughness or Dodge...I would love ITHF here, but its not a Monk bonus feat
18 Quicken? or Master of Forms?

I guess the Metamagics just make it hard to get both Cleaves and the THF line. And Insightful Reflexes and Completionist too?

As far as the Paladin builds, I wanted those shield feats for a Vanguard build at level 12. I would like completionist to fit in there too.

Unsure if Paladin needs any metamagics like extend or empower heal.

But on a Pure Paladin (I really think Vanguard Capstone looks strong), I don't have a ton of feats.

1 Power Attack
3 Cleave
6 Great Cleave
9 Improved Crit
12 Shield Mastery
15 Improved Shield Mastery
18 Improved Shield Bash
21 Overwhelming Critical

I guess my point is I just have a hard time fitting in Cleaves and THF line on my Cleric or Pure Paladin builds.

[unbongwah]

6 Great CLeave
FYI for this build concept you'll need to level rog 2 / monk 4 otherwise your BAB will be too low for GC pre-req (BAB 4). Possibly you already know that, but just reminding you as I've made that mistake before. :o

But on a Pure Paladin (I really think Vanguard Capstone looks strong), I don't have a ton of feats.

1 Power Attack
3 Cleave
6 Great Cleave
Paladin has access to the Cleaves in the KotC tree which would save feats, but on a Vanguard build it's not that practical to take tier-5 KotC (Avenging Cleave) with VG capstone. Unless maybe you want to emulate Strimtom's ftr VG (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494496-Strimtom-s-Vanguide-An-Endgame-guide-to-playing-Fighter-Vanguard) on a pally?

I've got a PDK pally VG alt who's been using KotC as primary tree in heroics. Works fine, but I'm gonna have to respec when I get to 20 if I want VG cap.

[simo0208]

Awesome advice in this thread.

Let me answer some questions why I struggle to get cleaves and THF.

So on my Cleric Quarterstaff builds:

I plan on being non-human (already done with human Racial TR),

So that is one feat I am missing out on.

I plan on taking Completionist, so that is one other feat that is used up.

And as a Cleric, I think I need three or four metamagic feats. Like Maximize, Empower Heal, Quicken and possibly Extend if I can fit it in.

I was going to do an INT based Q-Staff build that was going to attempt traps and smack stuff with a stick. I was thinking 12Cleric/6Monk/2Rogue

The 6 levels of Monk get me 3 bonus feats

I was thinking a level progression of first level ROG (skill points) then some Monk and Cleric levels and toward the end, my last level of ROG and then some more Cleric and Monk?

Feats would probably go this way.

1 Insightful reflexes because INT based
2 (has to be a Monk Bonus Feat) Power Attack
3 Cleave
6 Great CLeave
6 (Monk bonus feat) THF?
9 Empower Heal or Maximize
12 Improved Crit Bludgeon
15 Completionist
16 (Monk Bonus Feat) Toughness or Dodge...I would love ITHF here, but its not a Monk bonus feat
18 Quicken? or Master of Forms?

I guess the Metamagics just make it hard to get both Cleaves and the THF line. And Insightful Reflexes and Completionist too?

As far as the Paladin builds, I wanted those shield feats for a Vanguard build at level 12. I would like completionist to fit in there too.

Unsure if Paladin needs any metamagics like extend or empower heal.

But on a Pure Paladin (I really think Vanguard Capstone looks strong), I don't have a ton of feats.

1 Power Attack
3 Cleave
6 Great Cleave
9 Improved Crit
12 Shield Mastery
15 Improved Shield Mastery
18 Improved Shield Bash
21 Overwhelming Critical

I guess my point is I just have a hard time fitting in Cleaves and THF line on my Cleric or Pure Paladin builds.

If you are diluting cleric with monk, you don't need all those metamagic. Empower Heal and Quicken is plenty.

Why int based? Seems like a huge investment to completely go away from the monk/cleric obvious wisdom synergy. If you still plan on getting high wisdom, then you are literally just spending action points to do INT instead of STR as they are the same, with the added benefit of divine might on the cleric side boosting your strength based on your Charisma.

[simo0208]

I personally don't think you'll be impressed with monk/cleric anymore. The melee power loss in Henshin really hurts these builds. Pure cleric or fighter/cleric will be more effective in my opinion. Kensai tree for fighter is so good comparably to the monk line for cleric. But then you're pretty much doing Axel's build...

[Xanthrawl]

If you are diluting cleric with monk, you don't need all those metamagic. Empower Heal and Quicken is plenty.

Why int based? Seems like a huge investment to completely go away from the monk/cleric obvious wisdom synergy. If you still plan on getting high wisdom, then you are literally just spending action points to do INT instead of STR as they are the same, with the added benefit of divine might on the cleric side boosting your strength based on your Charisma.

I agree about the metamagics, but INT based synergizes well with the trapping he also wants to accomplish. Although depending on past lives and gear, it's pretty easy to get these skills to decent levels.

[unbongwah]

Why int based?
OP is putting his own spin on this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/480233-14-Cleric-6-Monk?p=5890757&viewfull=1#post5890757). INT becomes your to-hit, dmg, and Reflex stat all at once; plus you gain extra skill pts for trapping etc.

[Bacab]

OP is putting his own spin on this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/480233-14-Cleric-6-Monk?p=5890757&viewfull=1#post5890757). INT becomes your to-hit, dmg, and Reflex stat all at once; plus you gain extra skill pts for trapping etc.

Yeah, I really think that build looks super interesting.

And if its terrible, I will calmly blame Ungbongwah in every party I am in!

And, I did totally miss the Great Cleave at level 6 fail due to BAB. I guess that is why you went a different order on feats.

BTW, is dodge not better than deflect arrows? I really am intrigued by the "Reed in the Wind" enhancements from Shintao. I think the 3W and 9% dodge seems really nice, but you have to have dodge in it?

[Bacab]

If you are diluting cleric with monk, you don't need all those metamagic. Empower Heal and Quicken is plenty.

Why int based? Seems like a huge investment to completely go away from the monk/cleric obvious wisdom synergy. If you still plan on getting high wisdom, then you are literally just spending action points to do INT instead of STR as they are the same, with the added benefit of divine might on the cleric side boosting your strength based on your Charisma.

I will do some Battle Cleric lives that will just be Strength and CHR based and I plan to abuse Divine Might.

It will be similar to Axel's build, but it won't be PDK (because it will be for Racial TRs)

Also, I look forward to doing a Vistani Stabby Favored Soul melee life that will just go all out on CHR with that CHR to hit and damage ability and Divine Might as well.

[unbongwah]

And, I did totally miss the Great Cleave at level 6 fail due to BAB. I guess that is why you went a different order on feats.
Since that build was Morninglord which starts cleric, my leveling options were constrained; but also since it's an Iconic it starts at lvl 15 and I didn't really care about heroic feat order that much. In hindsight I'd probably move Great Cleave down and backload the ITHF/GTHF feats instead, but whatever.

BTW, is dodge not better than deflect arrows? I really am intrigued by the "Reed in the Wind" enhancements from Shintao.
Problem with Reed in the Wind is it boosts your Dodge bonus but not your max Dodge bonus which starts at 25%. So if you're running with high enough static Dodge to keep it at max cap, you don't need RitW; and if you're not, you probably need to upgrade your Dodge gear, not take RitW. ;)

That said, do what you want; there's a little wiggle room with APs.

[Selvera]

Ah I see your issue. First off; the only metamagic a cleric really needs is quicken (to prevent being interrupted), you can always "empower your healing" via using a stronger heal and if you're finding that's not enough; get some more positive spellpower gear. Positive spellpower was no exception to the devs insane powercreep to spellpowers in general, and you can get 200+ positive spellpower easily enough by mid heroics. (Not taking empower heal can make investment in radiant servant a bit awkward at some levels though, but I've largely moved away from RS on heavily multiclassed builds, especially with the upcoming update to warpriest).

Why 2 levels of rogue? You already get evasion by being a monk and it doesn't open up significant advantages in TA that henshin doesn't have access to already. 3 rogue would open up sweeping strikes which is actually useful enough to dip for, and 1 level is all you need to trap and get the attackspeed from TA. Just a reminder when you plan your split; that you'll want at least 5 monk levels by the time you're level 12 (if you plan on using henshin T5s), this is one reason why you might want to take all 6 monk levels early; but that does delay your ability to heal very well until very late (scrolls can help with this). As for the last monk feat; I recommend deflect arrows.

I certainly have been known to push feats such as greater two handed fighting up to level 24 if I can't fit it in for heroics; so if you feel pressured to get insightful reflexes and completionist etc etc; you should be ok in heroics; you'll just be missing out on some dps.

You could also consider a 12/6/2 split where it's cleric/fighter/rogue; replacing henshin with kensai. That way you can get evasion and quick strike from rogue and wear NoWorries, (which if you have a few martial pastlives,will push your AC into amazing for heroics spectrum).

[Bacab]

Since that build was Morninglord which starts cleric, my leveling options were constrained; but also since it's an Iconic it starts at lvl 15 and I didn't really care about heroic feat order that much. In hindsight I'd probably move Great Cleave down and backload the ITHF/GTHF feats instead, but whatever.

Problem with Reed in the Wind is it boosts your Dodge bonus but not your max Dodge bonus which starts at 25%. So if you're running with high enough static Dodge to keep it at max cap, you don't need RitW; and if you're not, you probably need to upgrade your Dodge gear, not take RitW. ;)

That said, do what you want; there's a little wiggle room with APs.

Thanks for the advice.

I have never successfully run a dodge based defensive character.

I generally just had heavy armor and shield (Battle Cleric), or spells like blur and displacement as my defense (Bard or Sorc/WIZ/Arty)

I am trying to relearn or get better at playing melees, so I have been reading a lot of older builds from this thread...
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/470423-Build-Repository

Because the explanation of how things work or should work, really helps me.

And I can see the INT Based Q-Staff could be really tight on action points, so those 3 AP into reed in the wind could be possibly moved into something better.

[Amundir]

Make sure to take note that depending upon class, some enhancement trees have abilities in them that function as cleaves, without requiring you to take the cleave feat line.

Given the number of attack abilities you may get from enhancement trees and epic destiny trees, you may find that taking cleave and great cleave isn't necessary.

[simo0208]

Thanks for the advice.

I have never successfully run a dodge based defensive character.

I generally just had heavy armor and shield (Battle Cleric), or spells like blur and displacement as my defense (Bard or Sorc/WIZ/Arty)

I am trying to relearn or get better at playing melees, so I have been reading a lot of older builds from this thread...
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/470423-Build-Repository

Because the explanation of how things work or should work, really helps me.

And I can see the INT Based Q-Staff could be really tight on action points, so those 3 AP into reed in the wind could be possibly moved into something better.

My last life I had dodge of 50%ish and displacement going all the time. I did not find that an effective damage mitigation technique as too many champs ignored dodge (or a chunck of it) and displacement and most red names ignored displacement.

[Bacab]

My last life I had dodge of 50%ish and displacement going all the time. I did not find that an effective damage mitigation technique as too many champs ignored dodge (or a chunck of it) and displacement and most champs ignored displacement.

Ughhh...so basically the only dangerous mobs (Champs) ignore that stuff anyway.

That might have been the biggest difference that I noticed when I did the Clonk Path. Champs hit me so darn hard.

[Bacab]

You could also consider a 12/6/2 split where it's cleric/fighter/rogue; replacing henshin with kensai. That way you can get evasion and quick strike from rogue and wear NoWorries, (which if you have a few martial pastlives,will push your AC into amazing for heroics spectrum).


Hmm, the Kensai route would offer more usable feats and that expanded Crit range and multiplier.

Also going 12Cleric/6Fighter/2ROG would allow an easier spec into a regular Battle Cleric build.

Though Full Plate would negate evasion. But I could make a choice to prioritize evasion or PRR depending on the quest.

[Tilomere]

What is generally "better" for melee DPS?

The Two hand fighting line...

or

Cleaves

I also plan on doing a Paladin life and some (edit: a lot) heavy armor Battle Cleric lives.


Both, after you start your build with AoE stun, of course. You can modify the level split of this perfect build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/497024-The-Call-to-Soundburst-(Paladin)) for both.


My last life I had dodge of 50%ish and displacement going all the time. I did not find that an effective damage mitigation technique as too many champs ignored dodge (or a chunck of it) and displacement and most red names ignored displacement.

95% AoE stun on living and reapers with 3 second cooldown, 95% AoE turn destroy (deathwarded champs) on undead with 1 second cooldown I found on my last life to be an effective damage mitigation technique. I reaper streaked most dungeons solely off of divine healing light healing over time.

[simo0208]

Both, after you start your build with AoE stun, of course. You can modify the level split of this perfect build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/497024-The-Call-to-Soundburst-(Paladin)) for both.



95% AoE stun on living and reapers with 3 second cooldown, 95% AoE turn destroy (deathwarded champs) on undead with 1 second cooldown I found on my last life to be an effective damage mitigation technique. I reaper streaked most dungeons solely off of divine healing light healing over time.

Dude, you totally said "I never called this the perfect build" in another thread when we called you out on the terribleness of this build, and yet, you link it as exactly that. You cherry-picked quests to run and now you are pushing it all over the place. We get it, you like the build. It works for you. Good on you. I'm quite disappointed that I've seen a couple of totally new players look to replicate the build, and they will be sorely disappointed as they have neither the experience nor the past lives to even make the build somewhat competitive in cherry-picked quests.

[Selvera]

Though Full Plate would negate evasion. But I could make a choice to prioritize evasion or PRR depending on the quest.

Exactly; although in heroics you should think more in terms of evasion vs AC; although AC and prr are often good against the same things. (At level 10; Full plate is +10 prr over light armor, which is a fairly small bonus. Noworries is 17 AC better then mist-laden vestments; this is a bit more significant.)


Ughhh...so basically the only dangerous mobs (Champs) ignore that stuff anyway

Not all champions ignore that stuff; they're still very good defenses against the ones which do not ignore it. Learn your champs :) http://ddowiki.com/page/Monster_Champion

Ignore dodge and fortification: Archeron, Beast Mark

Ignore displacement: Aboreian, Cruel Soul, Demon Soul, Elemental Fury, Fey Touched, Flame Born, Infernal Pact, Light Bearer, Mark of Law, Shadow Marked, Souless, Soul of Ice, Stoneguard

Do not ignore anything: Hero’s Soul, Mark of Chaos?, Pandemonium, Skyborn, Styxian

It's a bit rediculous that over half of the champs ignore displacement; but it is super effective against those which don't ignore it. Dodge and fortification are pretty useful against most champs; but you need to worry about those 2 types that ignore them. In general; nothing ignores everything; so just lair all defenses as often as possible. Also nothing ignores AC.

[Tilomere]

Dude, you totally said "I never called this the perfect build" in another thread when we called you out on the terribleness of this build, and yet, you link it as exactly that.

That's silly. Link where I have said otherwise?


I'm quite disappointed that I've seen a couple of totally new players look to replicate the build, and they will be sorely disappointed as they have neither the experience nor the past lives to even make the build somewhat competitive in cherry-picked quests.

You are always welcome to prove your point about new players. I laid out how to do the math in the other thread. I'm guessing since the math shows you to be wrong just at a glance you aren't willing to write it out, or you would have done so already.




It's a bit rediculous that over half of the champs ignore displacement; but it is super effective against those which don't ignore it. C.

Displacement is supposed to be nerfed on reaper although I never tested it. I wonder if it is super effective on anything in midskull reaper.

No champs ignore stun. :) That's super effective.

[Bacab]

Both, after you start your build with AoE stun, of course. You can modify the level split of this perfect build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/497024-The-Call-to-Soundburst-(Paladin)) for both.



95% AoE stun on living and reapers with 3 second cooldown, 95% AoE turn destroy (deathwarded champs) on undead with 1 second cooldown I found on my last life to be an effective damage mitigation technique. I reaper streaked most dungeons solely off of divine healing light healing over time.

Perfect build is quite the statement.

It doesn't look like the type of build that I am looking to play.

Maybe I just do not understand what that build is trying to accomplish.

I am looking to get my hands dirty and learn how to be better as a melee.

The best way I think to do that is to ease into it as a Cleric that melees, that way I can still be useful as far as heals etc.

Also where is the stun coming from your build?

[unbongwah]

It's a bit rediculous that over half of the champs ignore displacement
*shrug* Those are just the ones smart enough to slot True Seeing in their gear lists, same as us. ;) It kinda annoys me they can get Dodge bypass and we can't, though. Granted not many mobs have Dodge, but still, it's the principle.

However, if I'm reading that list right, no champs ignore Incorporealty, so Shadow Veil remains pretty useful.

[simo0208]

Perfect build is quite the statement.

It doesn't look like the type of build that I am looking to play.

Maybe I just do not understand what that build is trying to accomplish.

I am looking to get my hands dirty and learn how to be better as a melee.

The best way I think to do that is to ease into it as a Cleric that melees, that way I can still be useful as far as heals etc.

Also where is the stun coming from your build?

He spams soundburst, which loses effectiveness starting at level 10 without heighten and adequate spell levels.

It's also terribly risky in higher skull reaper because the six second stun is reduced to about 3 seconds or less

[Tilomere]

It's also terribly risky in higher skull reaper because the six second stun is reduced to about 3 seconds or less

http://ddowiki.com/page/Reaper_difficulty

Maybe that helps you understand reaper and the build.


*shrug* Those are just the ones smart enough to slot True Seeing in their gear lists, same as us. ;) It kinda annoys me they can get Dodge bypass and we can't, though. Granted not many mobs have Dodge, but still, it's the principle.

Champion dodge is bugged. Helpless stun should set it to 0, but doesn't.

[simo0208]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Reaper_difficulty

Maybe that helps you understand reaper and the build.



Champion dodge is bugged. Helpless stun should set it to 0, but doesn't.

Yeah my bad, six seconds is the min. Way to be a jerk about it, Mr. Perfect.

[simo0208]

That's silly. Link where I have said otherwise?



You are always welcome to prove your point about new players. I laid out how to do the math in the other thread. I'm guessing since the math shows you to be wrong just at a glance you aren't willing to write it out, or you would have done so already.



Displacement is supposed to be nerfed on reaper although I never tested it. I wonder if it is super effective on anything in midskull reaper.

No champs ignore stun. :) That's super effective.

Here’s the thread where Tilomere got shown just how “worthwhile” the perfect build is:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/497110-Kensei-Caster

At least it was funny.

[SpartanKiller13]

My last life I had dodge of 50%ish and displacement going all the time. I did not find that an effective damage mitigation technique as too many champs ignored dodge (or a chunck of it) and displacement and most red names ignored displacement.

I love Displacement, and I currently have 11% Dodge. I'm amazed just how much damage it mitigates, despite it not being my primary defense. Like casting Blur at low levels, it's a pretty cheap way to reduce incoming damage by a noticeable margin.

Without Displacement/Dodge, I would need to throw a lot more heals at myself when tanking vs throwing a Consecration (twisted) and Shining Through.

Maybe they don't stop everything, but it's a lot more than nothing.


*shrug* Those are just the ones smart enough to slot True Seeing in their gear lists, same as us. ;) It kinda annoys me they can get Dodge bypass and we can't, though. Granted not many mobs have Dodge, but still, it's the principle.

However, if I'm reading that list right, no champs ignore Incorporealty, so Shadow Veil remains pretty useful.

Would you equip Dodge bypass if it was available? Given the Dev's propensity towards 4 effects max on new gear, I'd probably rather something else most of the time.

And we get Ghost Touch etc :D so I'd rather we don't get Dodge bypass vs mobs with Ghost Touch lol.

[simo0208]

I love Displacement, and I currently have 11% Dodge. I'm amazed just how much damage it mitigates, despite it not being my primary defense. Like casting Blur at low levels, it's a pretty cheap way to reduce incoming damage by a noticeable margin.

Without Displacement/Dodge, I would need to throw a lot more heals at myself when tanking vs throwing a Consecration (twisted) and Shining Through.

Maybe they don't stop everything, but it's a lot more than nothing.



Would you equip Dodge bypass if it was available? Given the Dev's propensity towards 4 effects max on new gear, I'd probably rather something else most of the time.

And we get Ghost Touch etc :D so I'd rather we don't get Dodge bypass vs mobs with Ghost Touch lol.

I also love displacement. I was just surprised at how much healing I needed with a dodge of 50 and displacement running. But your mileage may vary. I ran exlusively reaper last life, so bad champ draws can be the reason.

[lyrecono]

my pure barb takes the Cleaves and THF line and there isn't really any room for anything else. not complaining, but even as human I end up taking GC as a feat in epics. probably the only one that still takes Toughness, but I like my hit points. I would say you would want to splash fighter if you want more feats if you take both lines.

not trying to be mean here but assuming you were talking about your tr-ed main toons:
I think you have bigger build problems if you feel the need to take toughness, a barb is feat starved and already gets a huge amount of hp from it's cores (although not nearly as much as the fighter or palies 20% hp stance).toughness only adds 22 hp in heroics and 32 at lv 30.

[Qhualor]

not trying to be mean here but assuming you were talking about your tr-ed main toons:
I think you have bigger build problems if you feel the need to take toughness, a barb is feat starved and already gets a huge amount of hp from it's cores (although not nearly as much as the fighter or palies 20% hp stance).toughness only adds 22 hp in heroics and 32 at lv 30.

It's not a matter of need, but a matter of want and to get epic toughness. In the end I still get all the feats I want, its just done unconventional. My barb takes the cleaves late because she takes Tantrum and Supreme Cleave, so not in any hurry. She ends up with 4 cleaves.

I'm surprised it took this long for someone to tell me Toughness is a dump feat.

[lyrecono]

It's not a matter of need, but a matter of want and to get epic toughness. In the end I still get all the feats I want, its just done unconventional. My barb takes the cleaves late because she takes Tantrum and Supreme Cleave, so not in any hurry. She ends up with 4 cleaves.

I'm surprised it took this long for someone to tell me Toughness is a dump feat.

well, it reminded me of something cordo just said on the live feed (about adding HP to melees).
Adding HP doesn't solve the issues melee face, especially for the price of 2 feats. It's a high price, 82 hp on a 2,5 to 3k barb? (a bit more on a con based dwarf i guess)

[Qhualor]

well, it reminded me of something cordo just said on the live feed (about adding HP to melees).
Adding HP doesn't solve the issues melee face, especially for the price of 2 feats. It's a high price, 82 hp on a 2,5 to 3k barb? (a bit more on a con based dwarf i guess)

I heard about that too. hit points is a form of damage mitigation, but its not anything close to the solution the devs are looking for. I remember about a year or year and a half ago seeing my first 5k+ pure dwarf barbarian that was mostly twinked out in gear running LE Shroud. I thought that was insane. he was practically un-killable.

[lyrecono]

I heard about that too. hit points is a form of damage mitigation, but its not anything close to the solution the devs are looking for. I remember about a year or year and a half ago seeing my first 5k+ pure dwarf barbarian that was mostly twinked out in gear running LE Shroud. I thought that was insane. he was practically un-killable.

i assume the dwarf was rocking more then con and a D12, prr and mrr are a huge part of the equation, btw are you sure he wasn't a fighter in def stance and in Unyielding Sentinel combined with a full greensteel hp set?
Since you're talking about pre reaper era?