paladin tank raid/reaper build?

[Jeraziah]

does anyone have any ideas on making a proper paladin raid tank build? I've got some ideas but i don't think i'll be good at making it imo. I just need more info.

[contantinos1990]

does anyone have any ideas on making a proper paladin raid tank build? I've got some ideas but i don't think i'll be good at making it imo. I just need more info.

I was thinking of an Aasimar pure pally. Sacred defender stance, Aasimar stance for 10mrr prr 10% hp. Sacred stance for 20% more hp. All the good stuff from sacred defender. Leftovers for KOTC.
Dps will be low but ok with khopesh, zeal, holy sword and the prowess filigree with haste boost twist from legendary dreadnaut.

[tsteigner]

I was thinking of an Aasimar pure pally. Sacred defender stance, Aasimar stance for 10mrr prr 10% hp. Sacred stance for 20% more hp. All the good stuff from sacred defender. Leftovers for KOTC.
Dps will be low but ok with khopesh, zeal, holy sword and the prowess filigree with haste boost twist from legendary dreadnaut.

for s&b Tanking build you might also want to consider Bastard-Sword for glancing blows and imo rather splash into Vanguard instead of KotC because a Tank needs to do some dps to hold aggro :)

[Jeraziah]

I was thinking of an Aasimar pure pally. Sacred defender stance, Aasimar stance for 10mrr prr 10% hp. Sacred stance for 20% more hp. All the good stuff from sacred defender. Leftovers for KOTC.
Dps will be low but ok with khopesh, zeal, holy sword and the prowess filigree with haste boost twist from legendary dreadnaut.

Alright thanks for the info man. I was actually thinking of going warhammer but i'll probably end up going for bastard sword again

[contantinos1990]

After some thought, Bastard swords is actually a good alternative to khopesh.
You can take the enhancement from Aasimar and save a feat.
Take Power attack at level 1
Cleave and Great cleave at level 3 and 6.
Quicken at 9.
Improved critical slashing at 12.
Shield mastery at 15
Improved shield mastery at 18.
Overwhelming critical at 21.
Two handed fighting at 24.
Improved Two handed fighting at 27.
Greater two handed fighting at 30.

Another idea I had was this. "Characters can increase an ability by one at levels: 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24 and 28." We usually end up increasing STR, but we only lose 3.5 dmg and 3.5 dcs if we level up CON instead.
We have 10% hp stance from Aasimar, a 20% hp increase from the sacred defender stance and another 20% hp increase from Sentinel. Maby it's actually better to level up CON.

[xveganrox]

Another idea I had was this. "Characters can increase an ability by one at levels: 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24 and 28." We usually end up increasing STR, but we only lose 3.5 dmg and 3.5 dcs if we level up CON instead.
We have 10% hp stance from Aasimar, a 20% hp increase from the sacred defender stance and another 20% hp increase from Sentinel. Maby it's actually better to level up CON.

There's a reason your main damage stat is so important -- you don't lose 3.5 damage, you lose 3.5 base damage. So for example, if you're a Paladin using Holy Sword with Improved Critical and Overwhelming Critical with a Drow Khopesh of the Weaponmaster, your crit profile is 2-14/x1, 15-18/x4, 19-20/x5 -- so that 3.5 base damage becomes [2 (17.5) + 4 (14) + 13 (3.5)]/20, or ~7 damage per hit. Anything that boosts melee power, hits multiple targets, or increases crit range or multiplier boosts that multiplicatively.

You could go for the best of both worlds by running a Dwarf with max con, just enough strength to qualify for feats, and through your weight around, although that would cost a lot of AP -- I think as much as the Aasimar ability. You'd get Dwarven Axe proficiency for free, though, and they're better than Bastard Swords.

[Hreasvalgir]

I'm playing a Dragonborn Paladin with my points mainly in Sacred Defender and Vanguard, and I feel like I have a pretty good blend of tankiness and damage. I use Bastard swords and Tower shields. I put enough points into Dragonborn to get the breath weapon for cone damage, and to raise my AC and prr. My mrr is a little low, though, usually a solid ten points lower then my prr, but having good saves can somewhat make up for that, i've noticed.

[Niminae]

This is a timely thread, because I've been considering converting a character in a static group into a tank since the group lacks one. We run R2, our Cleric is not very attentive to health bars, and I thought some supplementary healing from a Paladin plus concentrating the damage more might help out a lot.

My issue is that I've never run a tank before, and in looking through the Paladin forum I haven't seen any tanking builds. Maybe I didn't dig deep enough but it seems that all the Vanguard builds are really just DPS builds that happen to use a shield. They might kick a few points into SD but it almost always ends at Durable Defense.

Here's what I've come up with as a first draft. I'd appreciate any feedback. Since it is an Iconic I didn't pay much attention to the Feat order except to place Bastard Sword early so it can be swapped cheap if I find a better Kopesh or a Dwaxe. The same for skills. And I've got to run an Iconic since the group is at 20th and I can't catch up with just an Otto's Box alone from 1st. On Enhancements, Sacred Shield Mastery III seemed like a "must have" in order to overcome (a little) the horrible dodge cap while using a tower shield. And then I just went with what looked like good defenses in SD and tried to get some DPS out of Van so when I'm solo farming in between our group sessions I can kill some things.



Kris S&B Paladin Tank
19/1 Paladin/Fighter
Lawful Good Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Paladin . . . .11. Paladin . . . .16. Paladin
2. Paladin. . . . .7. Paladin. . . . 12. Paladin. . . . 17. Paladin
3. Paladin. . . . .8. Paladin. . . . 13. Paladin. . . . 18. Paladin
4. Paladin. . . . .9. Paladin. . . . 14. Paladin. . . . 19. Paladin
5. Paladin. . . . 10. Paladin. . . . 15. Paladin. . . . 20. Paladin


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . 18. . . .+6. . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . 10. . . .+6. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 14. . . .+6. . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . 10. . . .+6. . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: STR
Charisma. . . . 16. . . .+6. . . 24: STR
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: STR

Skills
. . . . . F .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P
. . . . . 1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 2 .3 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Intim . . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Heal. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .1 .1 .2 .2 .2 .3 .12
Balance . . . . ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
UMD . . . 2 . . ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 11
Jump. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ½. ½. . . . . . . .1
Tumble. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .½ .½ . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .12 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .6 .6 .6 .6 .6 .6


Feats

.1. . . . : Shield Mastery
.1 PDK. . : Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword
.1 Fighter: Power Attack
.3. . . . : Two Handed Fighting
.6. . . . : Improved Two Handed Fighting
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
12. . . . : Precision
15. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
18. . . . : Greater Two Handed Fighting
21 Epic . :
24 Epic . :
26 Destiny:
27 Epic . :
28 Destiny:
29 Destiny:
30 Epic . :
30 Legend :

.2 Deity. : Follower of: Silvanus
.7 Deity. : Blessing of Silvanus


Spells

Paladin Lesser Restoration, Lionheart, Seek Eternal Rest, Divine Favor
Resist Energy, Angelskin, Remove Paralysis, Bull's Strength
Magic Circle Against Evil, Prayer, Cure Moderate Wounds, Remove Curse
Holy Sword, Zeal, Death Ward

Enhancements (80 AP)

Vanguard (46 AP) To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II, Vicious Shield II Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
Brutality III, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III, Melee Power Boost III
Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark, Shield Riposte III
Shield Charge III, Myrmidon's Edge III
Shield to the Face, Disorienting Smash III, Shield Charge III, Armored Strength
Sacred Defender (34 AP) Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense, Divine Righteousness Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III, Sacred Armor Mastery III
Bulwark Aura III, Resilient Defense III, Sacred Shield Mastery III
Inciting Defense III, Tenacious Defense III
Reinforced Armor III, Swift Defense, Hardy Defense III

[cru121]

.1 PDK. . : Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword


Can't Paladins gets Bastard Sword proficiency for free from a deity feat?
http://ddowiki.com/page/Favored_by_Helm

[Enoach]

For race I'm still testing out the races as I do racial lives.

Currently in Dragonborn - Advantage here is that it has a bonus to both Strength and Charisma with sacrifice in Dexterity - Now the Dexterity penalty is not as bad when you consider Heavy Armor and Tower Shield's Max Dexterity Bonus. Additionally it has a racial HP/Healing Amp line and Hate boost

It is a solid choice.

I enjoyed the Purple Dragon Knight for these reasons

1. The Sword focus
2. The concept that if Charisma is higher then Strength you get your Charisma Bonus added to your Tactical feats - With Vanguard Shield bash abilities this give you some CC options
3. Benefits of being human - healing amp and extra feat and extra skill point per level
4. Can use Helm as the Deity - This grants Bastard Sword Proficiency without feat and benefits from the sword focus of the PDK

The downside is if you want to go 20 Paladin you need a minimum of LR+1 to remove the Fighter Level. So it can be "expensive". However, I found it was worth it.

My next racial lives will be as an Aasimar so I'll find out if the "other" LoH options is more beneficial then the enhancements in the Sacred defender.

----
As a note I generally build my paladin with a Charisma Focus, use Swords - Including Long Swords which is not as powerful but also does not cost.
41 to 42 points in Sacred Defender
Points in Vanguard to get the Shield Smash and Stun enhancements
KoTC points to get extra smites and first tier of Divine Might (30 second boost to strength for times you need to boost strength for things like Levers or avoid strength damage)
Points in Racial for defensive, attribute (when charisma is an option) and healing amp or AC boost and Hate enhancements.

---
@Niminae - I would not recommend a starting strength of 18 on a PDK paladin (or any paladin tank build). Instead start with a 14/16 and use the saved points to boost Intelligence to 12 and Wisdom at 10
I also would recommend Helm for the Bastard Sword Proficiency over Silvanus which is a Maul focus deity
Also, Power Attack and Precision cannot be active at the same time - with limited feats it would be better to pick one

[Captain_Wizbang]

Ive played S&B Pally's in every way except Aasimar. And after countless years of frustration, that might be my last effort, (I doubt it though)

Unfortunately, S&B gives up way too much in DPS. And the gained CC is situational at best. What are you trying to do? get aggro & turtle up? Or get aggro and contribute w/ melee dmge?

It's very hard to get a proper balance of the 2.


Defensive build; Put everything into defense and intim, half the lvl up's in str 1/2 in con. Race, human for free feat & heal amp, Dwarf because its a blast to play, Dragonborn for a cha based (my last choice).

Offensive build, human strength everything. Keep cha at a min of 12 at creation for DM

Iconics as an S&B pally can be amazing, but again, you have to decide which way to play the toon.

I don't include completionist in any way, as I don't have one, never will. I DO have +7's Supreme Tomes on my 4 melees. So Im always going to be short on my #'s. Who cares?

Now let's talk about having FUN w/ an S&B intim Pally. I said FUN. Vanguard and T5 Shield Rush is an absolute gas. IF YOU CAN get in front of the ranged and lock toons, lol, I gave up running full speed ahead to use my CC abilities because of what I just said. In this case, I prefer Human strength build.

If you are grouped with people that will let you do your job, and let assassins do their job, and trappers do their job, you'll have fun. If the pew pews and zergers won't, then leave and find similar players. So your static group would be fun for the S&B human basty intimitank T5 Vanguard


Human, 18/12/16/ and the rest in cha for divine might. The +7's make up the diff. Free feat Bastard swd,

Power attack until you reach epic, then swap for precision.


Want to go THF? Its fun as well, and the synergies w/ str/cha are really nice, but are more difficult to balance. Gear has big part in that.

Now the min/maxers here will rebut me, but that's fine, I dont group with them.

[Niminae]

Can't Paladins gets Bastard Sword proficiency for free from a deity feat?
http://ddowiki.com/page/Favored_by_Helm

Yes. But I figured that I'd need to be swapping between Bastard Sword, Khopesh, and DWaxe, so I'd only get the benefit if I was on a Bastard sword. Plus the permanent +4 natural armor bonus to AC from Silvanus looked attractive, both since it's not a 6 seconds per Religious Lore feat and since it's a direct contribution to tankiness. 4 AC isn't a lot, but as something I can just turn on and forget it seemed to be the better option. Plus the game is all about stacking things up until they reach relevant levels. I just hope that 4 Natural Armor is untyped so it stacks, but now that I think about it Natural Armor is already typed... If it doesn't stack then Silvanus is a lot less attractive choice. Does anyone who has run a maul build know?



---
@Niminae - I would not recommend a starting strength of 18 on a PDK paladin (or any paladin tank build). Instead start with a 14/16 and use the saved points to boost Intelligence to 12 and Wisdom at 10
I also would recommend Helm for the Bastard Sword Proficiency over Silvanus which is a Maul focus deity
Also, Power Attack and Precision cannot be active at the same time - with limited feats it would be better to pick one

Can you share your reasons?

Here's mine:
- I looked at Cormyrian training and didn't think I could spare the AP. I tried, because I'd like to be able to turn effectively and more CHA would help there. It also locks me more into Bastard swords, since nether Khopesh nor SWaxe can get the benefit. If I try again I'd definitely go Helm for the free BS feat since I'd be locked in anyway.
- I'm pretty happy with my skill levels so more Int doesn't seem to offer much. I could pick up a few more Heal?
- I've run Paladins before (just not trying to be tanky at all, 2hf falchion all the way) and never needed more than 8 starting Wisdom. I never run out of mana and the issue of having to chug Owl's Wisdom pots at low levels just to memorize and cast isn't an issue for an Iconic who can use gear plus my +6 tome to bring me up to a comfortable level.
- The PA + Precision is just something I've done before that even though I'm spending 2 feats and can only use one at a time provides some flexibility. But I could lose one or the other. Which would you lose and what would you pick instead? And what would you suggest if I move to Helm and free up another feat slot? Empowered Healing and or Quicken seem attractive.

A tempting stat change seems like more Con and less Str, but you didn't suggest that.

I've already broken the capstone but taking another level of Ftr, or anything else, really hurts the spell slots.

Thanks for the feedback!

EDIT: For more info on the character it is a 2nd life with 1 Rogue PL. If I make this change to Paladin I'll pick up an Arti PL. So not a lot of synergy going on there. It has very little ED progress, just 4 ranks in LD. I'd work through 4 ranks of GMoF if I made this move so I could start in US.

Edit part 2: And now I'm noticing that I statted as if I was taking Divine Might, and then didn't go into KotC at all... :-(

[Captain_Wizbang]

One other thing to consider are tactics. Trip, stun etc... those really help w/ cc, but again you have to build for it. And if you're going vanguard, they stack bonus'es & it helps a lot.

I played w/ an S&B/ THF build, rush into mob, intim, switch to great sword and lay waste. Works great in heroics, you can hold a lot of agro, but your post is for reaper raid tank.

so all of my info is worthless.

The newer orb/shield builds can hold reaper aggro better from what Ive seen.

[Enoach]

...---
@Niminae - I would not recommend a starting strength of 18 on a PDK paladin (or any paladin tank build). Instead start with a 14/16 and use the saved points to boost Intelligence to 12 and Wisdom at 10
I also would recommend Helm for the Bastard Sword Proficiency over Silvanus which is a Maul focus deity
Also, Power Attack and Precision cannot be active at the same time - with limited feats it would be better to pick one


...
Can you share your reasons?

Here's mine:

[QUOTE=Niminae;6122456]...
- I looked at Cormyrian training and didn't think I could spare the AP. I tried, because I'd like to be able to turn effectively and more CHA would help there. It also locks me more into Bastard swords, since nether Khopesh nor SWaxe can get the benefit. If I try again I'd definitely go Helm for the free BS feat since I'd be locked in anyway.


You are correct this does limit to Longswords and Bastard swords
There are actually more named longswords in DDO then the other swords. This is valuable in that the "golf bag" style equipping mentality gives you more options to pick the "best" weapon for the situation. As a Tank you are already swapping out DPS for Survivability so you do not want to skimp on maximizing having the best tool. You can drive a screw in with a hammer, but it is better if you use a screwdriver.

As stated the focus more on Charisma powers many Paladin abilities the Cormyrian training helps you reach good DCs for stun abilities and can also make trip an option which is something many melee overlook.


...
- I'm pretty happy with my skill levels so more Int doesn't seem to offer much. I could pick up a few more Heal?

You use Concentration, Intimidate, Heal, Balance, UMD, Jump and Tumble.

Jump is one of those skills that you can debate as it has a CAP and many ways to reach that cap without investment.

Other skills that I think are valuable Spot/Listen (just one of them) this is more so you can see those mobs trying to sneak in.

I also like skills like Bluff or Diplomacy - Diplomacy more because there are several places where this skill is valuable in NPC dialog and you are already ahead with Charisma skills. I like bluff to use for pulling mobs. Even as a tank you can use this to limit the fight to something the party can handle. Both are useful in dropping agro - remember as a tank you need to control agro, that means direct it to where you need it to be. Bluff also serves well when grouped with sneak attackers.


...
- I've run Paladins before (just not trying to be tanky at all, 2hf falchion all the way) and never needed more than 8 starting Wisdom. I never run out of mana and the issue of having to chug Owl's Wisdom pots at low levels just to memorize and cast isn't an issue for an Iconic who can use gear plus my +6 tome to bring me up to a comfortable level.

The point of the higher wisdom is less about spell availability or spell points. It is more about saves. At low levels having a higher will save avoids spells that can knock you out without killing you. While the -1 does not seem like a lot, I've seen it come back to bite me in the rear. Again as a tank you want to work towards not being sidelined.


...
- The PA + Precision is just something I've done before that even though I'm spending 2 feats and can only use one at a time provides some flexibility. But I could lose one or the other. Which would you lose and what would you pick instead? And what would you suggest if I move to Helm and free up another feat slot? Empowered Healing and or Quicken seem attractive.

Again, my point is you can't use both at the same time. Also, you are not taking any other benefits of PA. As a class that has limited feats and taking two feats where you can only use one, where both are pretty close in effectiveness seems like having something you may or may not ever use. Other feats could be used to improve defense or offense and be useful and not a "wall flower".

While either of Empowered Heal or Quicken are options, you might consider Improved Shield Bash as that helps you get more "Hits" in. Again as a Tank you are sacrificing DPS for survivability, what this does is gives you more times you hit helping generate more damage and contributing to your 'hate' generation. It also allows you to "turtle" and yet still "swing" which can be useful.

Additional note on Quicken I think you need to examine your casting patterns. Its main benefit is casting while under duress, but with a high PRR/MRR and less to be hit chance and the fact that Quicken does not work with scrolls means you may find the cost of this feat out weighs its benefits.

I myself am a Combat Expertise focus. But then again I focus more on tactical control then DPS.


...
A tempting stat change seems like more Con and less Str, but you didn't suggest that.

I've already broken the capstone but taking another level of Ftr, or anything else, really hurts the spell slots.

Thanks for the feedback!



As you have found the 8 wisdom to be enough, I've found that in many cases tank builds over-emphasize HP at the detriment of defensive abilities that would prevent losing HP. Next the cost vs benefit of the +2 con going from 14 to 16. vs the Cost vs Benefit of a little more Wisdom and Intelligence is

30 HP
+1 Fort save

vs

+23 Skill Points
+1 Will save
+Handful of spell points

[Niminae]

Take two:

Much more tank focused. It still lacks Quicken or Empower Healing. I'm not sure I even want or need Divine Might since with CKT it looks like if I use DM I lose the tactical bonus, and that applies to all of Stunning Blow, Stunning Shield, Dire Charge, Shield Charge, and even vanilla Trip. Thoughts on that?

I left a L2 and a L3 spell slot open because the builder doesn't show the addition of Raise Dead and Resurrection for taking Redemption.

Any feedback is appreciated!


Kris S&B Paladin Tank
19/1 Paladin/Fighter
Lawful Good Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Paladin . . . .11. Paladin . . . .16. Paladin
2. Paladin. . . . .7. Paladin. . . . 12. Paladin. . . . 17. Paladin
3. Paladin. . . . .8. Paladin. . . . 13. Paladin. . . . 18. Paladin
4. Paladin. . . . .9. Paladin. . . . 14. Paladin. . . . 19. Paladin
5. Paladin. . . . 10. Paladin. . . . 15. Paladin. . . . 20. Paladin


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . 14. . . .+6. . . .4: CON
Dexterity . . . 10. . . .+6. . . .8: CON
Constitution. . 18. . . .+6. . . 12: CON
Intelligence. . 10. . . .+6. . . 16: CON
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: CON
Charisma. . . . 16. . . .+6. . . 24: CON
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CON

Skills
. . . . . F .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P
. . . . . 1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 2 .3 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Intim . . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Heal. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .1 .1 .2 .2 .2 .3 .12
Balance . . . . ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
UMD . . . 2 . . ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 11
Jump. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ½. ½. . . . . . . .1
Tumble. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .½ .½ . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .12 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .6 .6 .6 .6 .6 .6


Feats

.1. . . . : Shield Mastery
.1 PDK. . : Stunning Blow
.1 Fighter: Power Attack
.3. . . . : Two Handed Fighting
.6. . . . : Improved Two Handed Fighting
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
12. . . . : Cleave
15. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
18. . . . : Greater Two Handed Fighting
21 Epic . : Great Cleave
24 Epic . : Bulwark of Defense
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea

.2 Deity. : Follower of: Helm
.7 Deity. : Ever Watchful


Spells

Paladin Lesser Restoration, Lionheart, Seek Eternal Rest, Divine Favor
Resist Energy, Angelskin, Remove Paralysis, <Any>
Magic Circle Against Evil, Prayer, Cure Moderate Wounds, <Any>
Holy Sword, Zeal, Death Ward

Enhancements (80 AP)

Vanguard (41 AP) To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II, Vicious Shield II Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
Brutality III, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III, Melee Power Boost III
Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark, Shield Riposte III
Shield Charge III
Disorienting Smash III, Shield Charge III, Armored Strength
Sacred Defender (32 AP) Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense, Divine Righteousness, Redemption, Glorious Stand Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III, Sacred Armor Mastery III
Bulwark Aura III, Sacred Shield Mastery III
Tenacious Defense III, Constitution
Reinforced Armor III, Swift Defense, Hardy Defense III
Knight of the Chalice (4 AP) Slayer of Evil Extra Turning III
Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP) Damage Boost Cormyrean Knight Training

[Selvera]

In terms of a self-healing offtank (which I sort of believed is asked for by Nim above); I used to have a pretty cool charisma based pali 15/fvs 4/fighter 1 build that I got a pdk/paladin pastlife on two of my characters with. The basis of the build was heavy armor, tower shield, lots of heal amp and prr and self healing through Ameliorating strike. I would swap the build between KotC T5s and LD destiny for cleaves/immunities/damage when needed, and SD T5s with US destany for HP/AC/full intimitank mode.

However; since Ameliorating Strike was significantly nerfed for all builds, I'm not sure if said build is as viable as it once was. (It used to heal for 90 average base healing every 15 seconds, now it's down to 60 every 12 seconds. In comparison, the heal spell is 150 base healing with worse spell scaling, and cure critical wounds is 42 base healing).

If you're looking for a build that can tank some higher-reaper stuff and don't worry about dps or self healing as much; I would strongly suggest not doing a 1 level of fighter splash. Either do a 4 level splash to stack up AC (even better with wizard/sorc) or stay pure and get the core 18/capstone of sacred defender for the +20 PRR, +30 HP, and other benefits.

As mentioned; if you're looking to tank or offtank as a pdk paladin; you should probably use shields and b-swords; which means the helm deity. Sylvannus is a dps deity for 2 handed fighting.

[Niminae]

Bah, I didn't see your response when I posted my second go-around. Thanks for the input!




You are correct this does limit to Longswords and Bastard swords
There are actually more named longswords in DDO then the other swords.
I have a decent number of longswords since my main started as a S&B Warpriest of the Sovereign Host. A horrible build both then and now, but I did collect a pile of longswords as a side effect, and the ones that weren't BtC can be shared around.


As stated the focus more on Charisma powers many Paladin abilities the Cormyrian training helps you reach good DCs for stun abilities and can also make trip an option which is something many melee overlook.
This time around I did fit that in.



You use Concentration, Intimidate, Heal, Balance, UMD, Jump and Tumble.

Jump is one of those skills that you can debate as it has a CAP and many ways to reach that cap without investment.
Well I put 1 point into Jump, so... :-P

I do see the value of your other skill suggestions, I just don't think I can be all things. A solid Intim and decent UMD is a good return on a high Cha. UMD is less valuable for a divine though, so I might see about swapping some of that out.



The point of the higher wisdom is less about spell availability or spell points. It is more about saves. At low levels having a higher will save avoids spells that can knock you out without killing you. While the -1 does not seem like a lot, I've seen it come back to bite me in the rear. Again as a tank you want to work towards not being sidelined.

As you have found the 8 wisdom to be enough, I've found that in many cases tank builds over-emphasize HP at the detriment of defensive abilities that would prevent losing HP. Next the cost vs benefit of the +2 con going from 14 to 16. vs the Cost vs Benefit of a little more Wisdom and Intelligence is

30 HP
+1 Fort save

vs

+23 Skill Points
+1 Will save
+Handful of spell points

That's a good perspective on the benefits. I'll give it some thought. I could drop to a 16 Con and boost Int+Wis without becoming a glass cannon. :-P

Thanks again!

[Niminae]

In terms of a self-healing offtank (which I sort of believed is asked for by Nim above);

Sort of. As I said the cleric in the static group isn't the best at watching health bars, so I figured a Paladin could both tank and focus the damage on just one character, plus throw a LOH as needed for backup heals. I wasn't thinking self heals so much, but on R2 a LOH will probably do me well. Oh, and I can take Deathward for party buffs since for reasons I've never understood the Cleric does not bring it.


If you're looking for a build that can tank some higher-reaper stuff and don't worry about dps or self healing as much; I would strongly suggest not doing a 1 level of fighter splash.

It's not so much a splash as it is the required 1 FTR for a PDK. And I'm not feeling like buying a +1 LR, so I have to live with the consequences of my frugality and work around the requirement. We just run R2 so it's not like I need to be optimized to the max to make things work. Even without a tank our rag-tag collection of mostly 1st life and undergeared characters is managing R2 pretty comfortably. I am just considering TRing my Arti into a tank for the reasons given above. I am a decent amount of our dps but we recently had a member drop out and the replacement came with a mechanic rogue, so I'm not needed for trapping any longer and he brought significant dps so that defrays the loss of the arti dps.

[Selvera]

It's not so much a splash as it is the required 1 FTR for a PDK. And I'm not feeling like buying a +1 LR

Yeah I understand that; quite reasonable; but if you're already locked into 1 fighter level; why not take 3 more and go AC stacking through SD/SD trees? You would only lose 1 4th level spell (deathward, I guess you explained why you want that :rolleyes:), and gain the option to get probably something in the order of +40 AC (if both builds respec to the tankiest they can be).

*Other penalties is 1 remove desease, cha cap to saves lowered to +50 all saves (110 cha) from +59 all saves (128 cha); a few lower level spells and lay on hands healing reduced from 29 x Cha to 26 x Cha. All fairly minor penalties in my book. Other benefit is +2 feats.

[FuryFlash]

As I said the cleric in the static group isn't the best at watching health bars, so I figured a Paladin could both tank and focus the damage on just one character, plus throw a LOH as needed for backup heals.

Since you won't be LRing that extra fighter level out of your character, you should consider multiclassing a bit and making a standard AC tank build (15/4/1). In your case this would be:
15 Paladin
- 4th level spells
- Strong LoH
- SD t5 available
- Saves
- SD 50% armour boost
4 Fighter
- 3 bonus feats
- StD 50% armour boost
- Tower Shield proficiency
1 Wizard
- 1 bonus casting feat (quicken?)
- EK 10% armour boost
- Shield/Jump spells

This might be less DPS, but would significantly increase your defenses, particularly in epics if you're doing endgame tanking. All of those stacking AC bonuses can work together to give a working endgame AC. If you don't mind losing the wizard bonus feat you can do Sorcerer instead, which should give you better spell points with your higher charisma.

[Enoach]

...I'm not sure I even want or need Divine Might since with CKT it looks like if I use DM I lose the tactical bonus, and that applies to all of Stunning Blow, Stunning Shield, Dire Charge, Shield Charge, and even vanilla Trip. Thoughts on that?



My thoughts on DM for a Charisma focus PDK...

This is an Insight bonus to strength so if your Charisma Modifier is higher then any insightful strength gear you have then this can be useful to boost strength for situations like needing a 75 strength to pull a lever. I will usually only go with a single rank for the 30 seconds. Depending on your Charisma this can make a difference in getting enough strength for those situations.

Another place it comes in handy is situations where your charisma is attacked, as while you will lose your bonus to tactical this can help you boost your strength so you can still have a DC that works.

[Captain_Wizbang]

My thoughts on DM for a Charisma focus PDK...

This is an Insight bonus to strength so if your Charisma Modifier is higher then any insightful strength gear you have then this can be useful to boost strength for situations like needing a 75 strength to pull a lever. I will usually only go with a single rank for the 30 seconds. Depending on your Charisma this can make a difference in getting enough strength for those situations.

Another place it comes in handy is situations where your charisma is attacked, as while you will lose your bonus to tactical this can help you boost your strength so you can still have a DC that works.


That right there is a much overlooked ability. Thanks for posting that.
+1

[Niminae]

Since you won't be LRing that extra fighter level out of your character, you should consider multiclassing a bit and making a standard AC tank build (15/4/1).

I do a little running in between our group sessions, mostly just equipment farming but now I'm in epics I wouldn't mind filling out destinies and picking up Tokens and Commendations as well. So I need enough DPS to be able to run solo. The character is on Wayfinder, and you're almost always solo there. But now that I'm in epics I might be able to get away with just swapping destiny. And I don't need to worry about running on a lower difficulty solo because even losing my BB streak I should easily make up the difference with the XP I earn running solo. So this is something to consider.

Do you (or anyone) have a pointer to a build like that? You've given me a really good grounding for how it looks, and I appreciate it. But as I said in my OP I did look for Paladin tank builds and just ran across DPS Vanguard builds that threw enough AP into SD to get Durable Defense. So really just a S&B DPS build.

I'll dig deeper in the paladin forum, maybe I'll run across it on page 4 or something. :-P

[unbongwah]

Kris S&B Paladin Tank
19/1 Paladin/Fighter
Lawful Good Purple Dragon Knight
If you're not LR +1'ing into pure paladin, I might suggest doing pal 18 / ftr 1 / wiz 1 instead. The only thing pal 19 gets you is an extra lvl 4 spell slot; whereas wiz splash gets you a free metamagic and access to tier-1 Eldritch Knight (extra cleave + 10% AC). So rather than taking the Cleave feats, you can use EK Cleave + KotC Exalted Cleave and put those feats elsewhere.

Alternatively, if you have FvS, you could splash that for Divine Presence, then go all in on being CHA-based w/CKT.

[Niminae]

I found this build which is the closest Ive seen to the build suggested by FuryFlash:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/485081-Ath-s-Reaper-Tank-Build-Thread

Which reverses the Ftr and Pala levels, and goes Sorc instead of Wiz. Lots more feats with all the extra Ftr levels, but of course it loses any resemblance as a spot healer except for LOH. This seems to be an 'all-in' tank build, and I'm not sure we need that running R2. I want the utility of being able to run solo and finish a dungeon in under 30 minutes (I have bad memories of crawling through content on my Warpriest. It was really hard to kill, but hit like a butterfly), and that means I need some DPS. And me having some DPS won't hurt the static group either.


If you're not LR +1'ing into pure paladin, I might suggest doing pal 18 / ftr 1 / wiz 1 instead. The only thing pal 19 gets you is an extra lvl 4 spell slot;

I need that spell slot for Deathward since the Cleric doesn't carry it. I have a couple flesh render goggles but that's just me, the rest of the group relies on buffs and we just don't have it in the party. I'll talk to the cleric next time we run and see if I can figure out why he doesn't carry DW. To me it's like being a Rogue or Arti and not investing the skill points to be able to trap, some jobs just come with the territory. But I also don't want to be telling others how to play their characters.

On DM, if I take Cha damage I'll drink a Resto pot. So that'll save me spending 1-3 AP there which would be losing T4 or T5 abilities for a T2. And if I'm wrong then enhancements are an easy swap later.

Does Mage Armor stack with regular armor? I thought it was typed as an armor bonus. Or is Improved Mage Armor taken just for the 10% AC boost and the loss of the 4 AC is just ignored?

[unbongwah]

I need that spell slot for Deathward since the Cleric doesn't carry it.
Errr what? That's like Clericing 101: "always slot (Mass) Deathward, dude." You need to fire that guy! :p

Or is Improved Mage Armor taken just for the 10% AC boost and the loss of the 4 AC is just ignored?
Correct: AFAIK the +10% AC bonus from IMA stacks with everything except the AC bonus from druid bear / Dire Bear form, which obviously isn't an option for a paladin anyway due to alignment incompatibility. So if you're MCing anyway and want high AC, it's a no-brainer, IMO; the extra Cleave attack is the cherry on top.

[Niminae]

the extra Cleave attack is the cherry on top.

It seems like I could rip through a lot of mana in a hurry at 10 sp/cleave. Not much individually, but it would add up fast. It's why when I play a ranger I prefer the DWS T5 since AA T5 has Arrow of Slaying and it costs mana.

[Niminae]

I've now run three times with the static group using the new Paladin build. I thought that was enough play time to judge the effectiveness. So far it has been fairly successful. My DPS has dropped significantly, but my goal of holding aggro has worked fairly well. I have a solid 1,000 HP more than I did as an Artificer, and that is ~1,000 more than anyone else in the group as well.

The Cleric is now carrying Death Ward and so I felt free to take a second off-class level, and selected FvS for access to Nightshield and Divine Presence.

Again the goals for the build were to be tanky enough to support my static group as a tank and aggro puller and also to have enough DPS to be capable of running solo. The solo bit is sketchy, while leveling destinies I really can only solo Normal. For decent melee DPs destinies I can solo Hard once I get them up to L3 or so.

Here is the build:
===
Kris S&B Paladin Tank
18/1/1 Paladin/Fighter/Favored Soul
Lawful Good Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Paladin . . . .11. Paladin . . . .16. Paladin
2. Paladin. . . . .7. Paladin. . . . 12. Paladin. . . . 17. Paladin
3. Paladin. . . . .8. Paladin. . . . 13. Paladin. . . . 18. Paladin
4. Paladin. . . . .9. Paladin. . . . 14. Paladin. . . . 19. Paladin
5. Paladin. . . . 10. Paladin. . . . 15. Paladin. . . . 20. Favored Soul


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . 14. . . .+6. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 10. . . .+6. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 16. . . .+6. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . 10. . . .+6. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 18. . . .+6. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CHA

Skills
. . . . .Fi Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Fv
. . . . . 1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 2 .3 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 23
Intim . . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 22
Heal. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .1 .1 .2 .2 .2 .4. 13
Balance . . . . ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
UMD . . . 2 . . ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½ .11
Jump. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ½. ½. . . . . . . .1
Tumble. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .½ .½ . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .12 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .6 .6 .6 .6 .6 .6


Feats

.1. . . . : Shield Mastery
.1 PDK. . : Stunning Blow
.1 Fighter: Power Attack
.3. . . . : Two Handed Fighting
.6. . . . : Improved Two Handed Fighting
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
12. . . . : Cleave
15. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
18. . . . : Greater Two Handed Fighting
21 Epic . : Improved Shield Bash
24 Epic . : Bulwark of Defense
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea

.2 Deity. : Follower of: Helm
.7 Deity. : Ever Watchful


Spells

Paladin Lesser Restoration (5), Lionheart (7), Seek Eternal Rest (15), Protection from Evil (19)
Resist Energy (9), Remove Paralysis (11), <Any>
Cure Moderate Wounds (12), <Any>
Holy Sword (15), Zeal (16)
Favored Soul Nightshield (20), Obscuring Mist (20)

Enhancements (80 AP)

Vanguard (40 AP) To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II, Vicious Shield II Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
Shield Specialization, Brutality III, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III
Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark, Shield Riposte III
Shield Charge III
Disorienting Smash III, Shield Charge III, Armored Strength
Sacred Defender (33 AP) Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense, Divine Righteousness, Redemption, Glorious Stand Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III, Sacred Armor Mastery III
Bulwark Aura III, Inciting Defense I, Sacred Shield Mastery III
Tenacious Defense III, Constitution
Reinforced Armor III, Swift Defense, Hardy Defense III
War Soul (4 AP) Smite Foe: Melee Divine Presence III
Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP) Damage Boost Cormyrean Knight Training

Destiny (24 AP)

Unyielding Sentinel Shield Prowess III, Charisma
Legendary Shield Mastery III
Renewal III, Endless Lay On Hands III
Light the Dark
Hardened III, Strength of Vitality III
Undying Vanguard

===

Things that are awesome about it are the access to Nightshield w/o resorting to scrolls or wands, and the Divine Presence boost to melee damage and tactics DCs. Shield Rush is great for knocking things over, and both Stunning Shield and Stunning Blow land consistently. Trip is iffy, but still worth trying.

Shield Charge doesn't seem to be working properly. The ability claims to do +3W in an AOE, but just eyeballing the damage it does not seem to be working as advertised. I need to test it more rigorously, of course.

I have a lot of bonuses to aggro from melee damage, but my Intim is lacking and needs improvement for pulling random mobs that are attacking others. Even as a Cha build I only have a standing 50 Intimidate skill, and this isn't high enough. I carry an Epic Brigand's Cutlass with +17 Intim, but that isn't a weapon which allows my Cormyrian Knight Training to operate. I have 6 Commendation: PDK and plan to buy the Purple Dragon Helm for an always on +15 Intim. I am currently wearing Boundless and will need to replace the Fortification. A L8 Heavy Fort augment will solve that problem. The Quality PRR I do not think I can find a replacement for, but it is 'only' 4 points. I don't ever run out of spell points so the loss of the Wizardry is not an issue, and as a melee the loss of Potency is also not an issue.

Operating in Unyielding Sentinel the survivability is great. In The Battle for Eveningstar final fight the Cleric and Druid both ran out of mana, and I said in party chat "Well, with you guys out of mana for heals I guess I'm going to die." But Renewal just sips spell points at 5 per use and I was able to keep myself healed using that and slowly (very slowly) beat down the boss for the R2 win.

[slarden]

Errr what? That's like Clericing 101: "always slot (Mass) Deathward, dude." You need to fire that guy! :p

Correct: AFAIK the +10% AC bonus from IMA stacks with everything except the AC bonus from druid bear / Dire Bear form, which obviously isn't an option for a paladin anyway due to alignment incompatibility. So if you're MCing anyway and want high AC, it's a no-brainer, IMO; the extra Cleave attack is the cherry on top.

This is what I was thinking - and besides there are so many sources of deathward including non-exclusive goggles and the new necklace. Everyone in the party should carry the new necklace for mass deathward at end game.

It's really hard to beat the 15/4/1 or 14/5/1 split for tanking and I agree 1 wizard is a better choice.

I always want my characters to be able to solo reaper and 15 paladin 4 fighter 1 wizard is great for that because you get the passive +crit range/multiplier and 10% doublestrike with no ap investment and still get all the stacking defensive bonuses. It's not the best dps in the world but it still beats any caster for single target dps.

It seems like every extra paladin level beyond 15 would make the build weaker with sub-optimal tradeoffs.

[Alcides]

Protector aasimar of vol gets a very good tank Cool down and bastard sword for 2 enhancement points. At max level get the cleave from KoTC and use shield slam with dire charge and consecration. The rest of the time you will be intimidating. Paladin tanks require a ton of past lives gear and reaper points to be viable in high reaper but it is definitely possible as I have done it. This will allow you to be a pure paladin tank.

[Niminae]

This is what I was thinking - and besides there are so many sources of deathward including non-exclusive goggles and the new necklace. Everyone in the party should carry the new necklace for mass deathward at end game.

It's really hard to beat the 15/4/1 or 14/5/1 split for tanking and I agree 1 wizard is a better choice.


Oh believe me, I am in no way claiming that mine is an optimal tank build. Wizard over FvS would still give me Shield and would give access to more AC, but I'd lose access to Divine Presence and that plus Cormyrian Knight Training were things I wanted to try for the first time. The build is serving me well for the purpose it was intended for. The character runs in a static group of fairly casual players. Several of the characters are first life. Gearing seems to be pretty haphazard, and most do not have a usable Cannith Crafting skill. We're playing on Wayfinder and the AH/ASAH is almost nonexistent. We don't really work well together as a team, and communications is pretty horrible with most of the players not using voice for whatever reasons. We're fairly often down at least one player and so are 4 or 5 manning for an evening. There is one Jibbers in the group, and that's mine and I picked it up this level, so we've run from 1-23 with zero safety net for a wipe. That we're still able to run R2s consistently successfully* shows that the new 'challenge' difficulty isn't really all that difficult, at least not in a group and not at low skulls.

I was hoping that a starting 18 CHA plus all level-ups into it would give me some turning capabilities, which is the reason I went with CKT. The Cleric never uses Turn Undead, and as a tank build I don't need my Turn Undead charges for much (unlike say a KotC DPS build where you'd hate to Turn Undead and use up a charge of Holy Retribution) so it'd be nice to get some cowers with them for added CC. But I'm not having any success unless I'm solo and running below Elite, which wasn't the point. I'm not geared for turning so that's obviously the first place I should look to improve, but as the tank it doesn't seem wise to be swapping a bunch of gear just to throw a Turn. I'm also not familiar with the typing of the various Turn Undead boosting effects, the wiki doesn't have this information, and I'm at a point where I no longer really want to mess with it. Maybe once I run another Cleric I'll give Turn Undead another go, and maybe by that time SSG will have itemized the Turn Undead effects better, as they have started to do with Celestial Beacon.


* I think we've wiped in only 2 dungeons, and we're 23rd level now. We also wiped in Shroud on Harry but we were 5 manning it at level on R2 so...

[Captain_Wizbang]

Just throwing this in here last minute. Most people I know have given up on shield rush/charge.

Some of us are convinced it's not wai no matter what staff said was fixed. Not a dig on staff. There's something not working with that mechanic/tactic.

[Coffey]

Most people I know have given up on shield rush/charge.

Some of us are convinced it's not wai no matter what staff said was fixed. Not a dig on staff. There's something not working with that mechanic/tactic.

Is it not working on fighter VG either? It wasnt so long ago that they finally fixed it for fighter.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Is it not working on fighter VG either? It wasnt so long ago that they finally fixed it for fighter.

It's working. But Ballrus and I both think the numbers are still skewed, or something got changed when they made adjustments recently.
Let's put it this way, after the second fix, my dc was over 125, now its around 100. I gave up, and havent played it with that ability in mind.

[Captain_Wizbang]

In my own opinion, the way we need tanks again now, its a waste to put the points into T5 Shield Rush, other than shooting for 40 in the tree.

[Niminae]

Just throwing this in here last minute. Most people I know have given up on shield rush/charge.

Some of us are convinced it's not wai no matter what staff said was fixed. Not a dig on staff. There's something not working with that mechanic/tactic.

Well, one bug is that they just don't work at all if you don't have a melee weapon in your main hand. Both have the same requirement of having a shield equipped:


Shield Charge: While shield equipped, Activate: Rush forward up to 30 feet to your selected opponent and deliver [+1/+2/+3] (W) shield attack that hits enemies around you. [36/24/12] seconds cooldown.

Shield Rush: While shield equipped, Activate: Rush forward in a line, delivering a shield bash to every creature hit. Each enemy is knocked down for [+2/+4/+6] (W) damage. The knockdown is negated on Fortitude saving throw vs DC(20 + highest ability modifier + class level + bonus to trip attacks). [60/45/25] seconds cooldown.

The sole requirement listed is a shield equipped, and the attack is made with the shield. So it is a bug that if you're holding a scroll or a throwing weapon or nothing at all in your main hand that the attack cannot be used.

I'm also not sure if Shield Charge is really doing the listed +3 W in an AOE, but I've been lazy about testing it so all I have to go by so far is eyeballing the red bars around me. +3 W is a reasonably significant attack, I should be seeing some change but I just don't.

The knockdown for Shield Rush seems to work just fine. I think mobs get up faster than they should, but that should be based on their Balance skill I guess. In any event it is a very short duration CC effect that I use frequently. As a tank I have stopped using it against bosses however, because having to reposition the boss and possibly exposing people attacking from behind to attacks when the boss turns around to come at me is are both bad things.

[ForgettableNPC]

Not sure if this counts as proper enough because I haven't gotten to updating it, but it's very durable the last time I tried it.

Undying Defender (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/472237-Undying-Defender-quot-I-do-not-fear-death!-quot)

Probably could slap the Epic Defensive Fighting on there too maybe?

[Mutty]

does anyone have any ideas on making a proper paladin raid tank build? I've got some ideas but i don't think i'll be good at making it imo. I just need more info.

Pdk with bastard sword. you can have hate and intim and get good dps. Cha is used for intim, and dps with pdk. Use a lesser heart +1 to go with 20 pally or try 18/2 for the extra fighter feat. You can max the build out for dps and still be able to tank eh raids easy. Swap out some gear and ed for ee and r1.

[Niminae]

Not sure if this counts as proper enough because I haven't gotten to updating it, but it's very durable the last time I tried it.

Undying Defender (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/472237-Undying-Defender-quot-I-do-not-fear-death!-quot)

Probably could slap the Epic Defensive Fighting on there too maybe?

There's no point at all for a Paladin to turn on Epic Defensive Fighting. You're already getting +20% HP for Tenacious Defense, and for some reason SSG made Epic Defensive Fighting the same type, so they do not stack. They claimed that Epic Defensive Fighting was to add HP to melee characters, but Paladins and Fighters who spend 13 AP in the Defender tree get nothing from it aside from doing no ranged damage and having a tiny healing range. Another swing and a miss from the dev team.