Testing Mass Frog

[vryxnr]

The wiki has some info, but it says item and ED bonuses do not work, and it links to a 4 year old thread... so I decided to do some testing on my own. Did it in a pvp-tavern so I could change variables safely and reliably.

Base DC still appears to be 30+wisdom.

However, DC boosts from items and other sources do now work.

The caster had a 62 wis (+26 mod), +3 DCs from EA, +2 artifact to DCs from L. Beacon of Magic set, +2 transmute from an augment, +7 equipment and +4 insight from a nightmother's scepter, resulting in a DC of 74.

The target had a fort save (at that time) of +59. Rolled a 14 (totaling 73) and failed, then rolled a 15 (totaling 74) and saved, thus confirming the DC at 74 in this instance.

As I removed specific non-wisdom related bonuses, the DC did in fact drop, as lower values showed success in making the save.

The combat log did refer to fortitude saves, so I assume the tooltip on Mass Frog is correct and it is in fact vs fort. However, Mass Frog does not actually kill/transmute players in pvp, so perhaps it interacts with actual kill-able enemies differently?

I cannot comment about spell focus feats however.

However, the caster level/spell penetration of it is still bugged. When casting Mass Frog on a target with Spell Resistance, it was casting at caster level 11 (and no item bonuses would apply). However, if I cast a different spell that also grants SR first (like Implosion), then cast Mass Frog immediately afterwards, it would give the correct caster level for the spell penetration check, but would still not apply item bonuses at all.

Mayhaps this is common knowledge now, but the last few threads I've seen regarding mass frog seem to imply it is not applying item and other bonuses to it's DC, and the ddowiki is still saying the same, when it appears by my most recent testing that it is now applying DC boosts properly.

[HuneyMunster]

Pretty much all epic spell feats are not very epic at all.

Hellball used to be good when it double proc when in close range. This was most probably changed due to The Codex and the Shroud due to Ta'ashveth one shotting melee with Hellball double proc.

Spirit Blades is terrible due to about 3-4 second casting time that results in dps loss.

Forced Escape seems to not break crowd control effects on caster.

Burst of Glacial Wrath did get improvements when mind block was removed from preventing monsters being Frozen.

Arcane Pulse, Ruin and Greater Ruin are the only ones that doe not have any issues.


The same issue applies to some Destiny spells/abilities that do not scale particularly well.

[Hipparan]

According to the wiki, Mass Frog always fails when used against enemies with SR. I would like to use a working version on a Druid spellcaster, but its current state is one reason why I haven't TRed my Warlock into a Druid since the Druid pass.

[Selvera]

I can say that Mass Frog does not always fail against enemies with SR; because I know that other clerics/fvs/druids who have it are able to mass frog the totems in baba's hut 100% of the time, but when I try to Mass Frog them I always fail the SR check.

(My fvs in question has a grand total of 1 fvs pastlife for +1 spell pen; I'm fairly sure those other clerics/fvs have the full set of 3 wiz/3 fvs pastlives for +9 spellpen, and probably more SR breaking from enhancements/twists).

[SirValentine]

The wiki has some info, but it says item and ED bonuses do not work, and it links to a 4 year old thread... so I decided to do some testing on my own.


Thanks, appreciate the updated info. I've done multiple rounds of testing in the past, but over a year and half ago most recently.



However, DC boosts from items and other sources do now work.


Good to know. I still wish they'd just display the DC in the tooltip like for other spells.



However, the caster level/spell penetration of it is still bugged. When casting Mass Frog on a target with Spell Resistance, it was casting at caster level 11 (and no item bonuses would apply).


11...did you have any kind of caster level boost active? Augmentation item of some sort, or Druid capstone giving +1 to caster level or something like that? Last time I tested, I was getting a caster level of 8 at level 28, and 10 at level 30. I.e., caster level was number of Epic levels (instead of character level, the way it should be).



However, if I cast a different spell that also grants SR first (like Implosion), then cast Mass Frog immediately afterwards, it would give the correct caster level for the spell penetration check, but would still not apply item bonuses at all.


Very interesting.


According to the wiki, Mass Frog always fails when used against enemies with SR.

Not quite. The caster level is bugged, which makes it off by an awful lot, and items don't help it, which makes it even worse.

However, when I tested it, all of the following did help the Spell Pen check:
- Druid Season's Herald (now nerfed out of existence) or Cleric Divine Disciple Spell Penetration enhancements
- Draconic Incarnation & Exalted Angel Piercing Spellcraft, & Fatesinger Echoes of the Ancestors: Magister Epic Destiny enhancements
- Guild ship buff
- Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and Epic Spell Penetration feats
- Wizard & FvS past lives


Between all of that, you can get enough to be useful against low-SR enemies. And, of course, most mobs have no SR at all. But, yes, in it's current state it's useless against high-SR enemies.

[Hipparan]

Not quite. The caster level is bugged, which makes it off by an awful lot, and items don't help it, which makes it even worse.

However, when I tested it, all of the following did help the Spell Pen check:
- Druid Season's Herald (now nerfed out of existence) or Cleric Divine Disciple Spell Penetration enhancements
- Draconic Incarnation & Exalted Angel Piercing Spellcraft, & Fatesinger Echoes of the Ancestors: Magister Epic Destiny enhancements
- Guild ship buff
- Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and Epic Spell Penetration feats
- Wizard & FvS past lives


Between all of that, you can get enough to be useful against low-SR enemies. And, of course, most mobs have no SR at all. But, yes, in it's current state it's useless against high-SR enemies.

Good to know. I probably still won't go Druid yet until it gets fixed, but it's nice to know it at least should work on lower level enemies for the fun of it. :p

[vryxnr]

...


11...did you have any kind of caster level boost active? Augmentation item of some sort, or Druid capstone giving +1 to caster level or something like that? Last time I tested, I was getting a caster level of 8 at level 28, and 10 at level 30. I.e., caster level was number of Epic levels (instead of character level, the way it should be).



...

Went back to do more tests focusing on caster level/spell pen.

The caster is a First Lifer, Level 30 cleric, healing focused. Epic Destiny is Exalted Angel but without it's spell pen enhancement. I believe it's granting +6 caster level (level 0 seems to be counting as +1 to cleric caster level despite the tooltip reading 'every additional level grants +1 caster level) as not only are the spell pen checks 1 higher than I thought they should be, but other spells are being cast at a caster level 1 higher than I thought they would be. So it seems this character's base caster level is 26. Has Radiant Servant's Intense Healing and Incredible Healing (+3 caster level and caster level cap on positive energy spells) and Cure Focus (no caster level cap on cure spells). Nothing else affecting caster level... Also has the guild bonus that increases Spell Penetration checks by +1, and I have a nightmother's scepter for +8 equipment +4 insight to spell pen, though regardless of it being equipped or not those item bonuses to spell pen do not apply to Mass Frog. No spell pen feats.

Though - without the scepter - Implosion was giving +27 spell pen (caster level 26, +1 guild to spell pen) and upped properly to +39 with the scepter. Mass Frog continues to show +11 regardless of the scepter being equipped or not, but did jump up to +27 if cast after casting Implosion (still regardless of the scepter being equipped).

Of course, all this is according to the combat log. It is possible it is giving false information as well.

Though if it is based on epic levels instead of actual caster level of the character, then where is the extra +1 coming from in my tests? With 10 epic levels and no other caster level boosts, I'm still seeing it cast at level 11. Maybe the guild spell pen bonus is working, but items are not?

Actually, while writing this I reset the enhancement points and added in the Spell Pen from the EA ED, and now I'm getting +14 on spell pen checks with Mass Frog. So it appears to me that Mass Frog IS in fact using your epic levels as it's caster level, and is getting the spell pen bonuses from guild buffs and epic destiny abilities, but not from items (no idea about spell pen feats though). It still jumps up to use proper class levels if you cast something else that grants SR first (like Implosion in my tests. With EA's spell pen, it was using +30 spell pen (26 + 1 guild + 3 EA)).

(random fyi: the pvp-pits makes everyone an enemy, including yourself. AoE spells you cast can hit yourself, and ones like Divine Wrath that damage enemies and heal yourself will simply damage everyone including yourself and not heal you)

[Whaldorf]

Thanks for the testing - just to add to the knowledge base. Have mass frog on ranger right now. The reaper spell pen does not seem to add to the spell pen check. Items do not either as you confirmed, but EDs and racial enhancements (aasimar at least) do.

[Whaldorf]

oh... and one more thing.... i cannot get the SR spell that you mention to work on a ranger. There are limited ranger offensive spells in the first place and only charm animal and hold animal have SR. Neither work. Also soundburst from EA ED also does not increase the spell pen check if cast first even though it does have SR.

[Tilomere]

oh... and one more thing.... i cannot get the SR spell that you mention to work on a ranger. There are limited ranger offensive spells in the first place and only charm animal and hold animal have SR. Neither work. Also soundburst from EA ED also does not increase the spell pen check if cast first even though it does have SR.

Soundburst from EA ED also is also bugged and does not take into account spell pen, so it won't help with MF if cast first. You can splash your ranger with cleric for soundburst or command, which will work.

[Whaldorf]

Soundburst from EA ED also is also bugged and does not take into account spell pen, so it won't help with MF if cast first. You can splash your ranger with cleric for soundburst or command, which will work.

aha.... a bugged spell on a bugged spell. No wonder. Thanks for the explanation tilo. :D